[pct-l] Big Lake Youth Camp

[scottie.wujcik at hp.com (WUJCIK,SCOTTIE (HP-Corvallis,ex1))]

Recently I reported that a Forest Service worker stated that the Big Lake
Youth Camp had been destroyed by the B & B fire this past summer in Oregon.
This past weekend I took a cross country ski trip out there and found it to
be in excellent condition and operating.  The forest service worker was
confused with another youth camp located near Suttle Lake which is in close
proximity to the area of Big Lake.  I'm sorry if the initial misinformation
has caused any major changes in you planning.  So, if you're planning on
using the Big Lake Youth Center as a resupply point, they are there and
pleased to assist the PCT hikers.  Again, my apologies for the earlier
misinformation.

Scottie
3lungs

-----Original Message-----
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[mailto:pct-l-bounces@mailman.backcountry.net] On Behalf Of
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Sent: Monday, January 12, 2004 12:43 PM
To: pct-l@mailman.backcountry.net
Subject: pct-l Digest, Vol 9, Issue 11


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Today's Topics:

   1. Re: Snow Camping in Washington (Richard)
   2. Mt. Hood Chapter P.C.T. annual meeting (Brita1919@aol.com)
   3. Re: How much food a day do you need? (Joanne Lennox)
   4. Re: How much food a day do you need? (brentramsby-pct@yahoo.com)
   5. Re: Digital Camera and Cold Weather (brentramsby-pct@yahoo.com)
   6. Denver wedding (JAMES)
   7. Re: Snow Camping in Washington (CMountainDave@aol.com)
   8. Re: How much food a day do you need? (CMountainDave@aol.com)
   9. Re: How much food a day do you need? (Slyatpct@aol.com)
  10. PCT 2004 Candidates via AIR TRAVEL (JAMES)
  11. Re: How much food a day do you need? (Marshall Karon)
  12. (no subject) (alfrei@wm.edu)
  13. RE: (no subject) (Judson Brown)
  14. Re: How much food a day do you need? (StoneDancer1@aol.com)
  15. dogmatism (CMountainDave@aol.com)
  16. Re: (no subject) (CMountainDave@aol.com)
  17. Re: (mosquitos) (Lonetrail@aol.com)
  18. 5 gal bucket (Robert B Smith)
  19. Re: (mosquitos) (Randy Forsland)
  20. Re: (mosquitos) (Randy Forsland)
  21. Re: PCT Class of 2004 Gear  (Bighummel@aol.com)
  22. Re: dogmatism (Ben Armstrong)
  23. Gear List (Jim Keener)
  24. For Sale - Border to Border Video (Scott  Kimler)
  25. For Sale - PCT Hiker's Handbook (Scott  Kimler)
  26. Re: dogmatism (Hiker)
  27. Re: dogmatism (CMountainDave@aol.com)
  28. RE: PCT Class of 2004 Gear  (Jerry Goller)
  29. Re: Gear List (Marshall Karon)
  30. Re: How much food a day do you need? (The Mountain Goat)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2004 19:53:51 -0800
From: Richard <calliger@infolane.com>
Subject: Re: [pct-l] Snow Camping in Washington
To: goforth@cio.net, "Gray" <gray_hiker@mindpoison.org>,
	<pct-l@mailman.backcountry.net>
Message-ID: <2.2.32.20040112035351.00bd5a80@postal.infolane.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

At 11:10 AM 1/11/04 -0800, Joanne Lennox wrote:

>
>You might just get a list of the Sno-Park locations, because that is 
>the only places that you can leave your car,

       ---> As long as there are an absence of "No Parking" signs you may
leave your car in any place that is plowed "off the pavement" is my
understanding. Granted these are far and few in-between.

Figure out how you are going to anchor the tent before you
>go; many tent stakes are not much good( you can put a stick or branch 
>through the loop of the tent guy and bury it)

          ---> Be careful- if the snow has a high moisture content (liek in
the Sierra usually) and it freezes overnight your tent can become quite
bound into the stake/snow now-ice
combo-- I learned the hardway and now always use a slip knot that can be
pulled loose ABOVE the surface of the snow freeing the tent loop/guy from
the anchor which usually has to be put parallel to the ground to do any good
and consequently freezes in solid. Hwoever with the slip knot it is an easy
matter to free and pull out the tent guy string/rope/loop very easily around
the frozen anchor.

Richard

>
>Goforth
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>pct-l mailing list
>pct-l@mailman.backcountry.net
>unsubscribe or change options: 
>http://mailman.hack.net/mailman/listinfo/pct-l
>
>


------------------------------

Message: 2
Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2004 23:30:00 EST
From: Brita1919@aol.com
Subject: [pct-l] Mt. Hood Chapter P.C.T. annual meeting
To: pct-l@mailman.backcountry.net
Message-ID: <a2.41339a1b.2d337cc8@aol.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"

For all you winter bound backpackers in the greater Portland, OR. Area, the 
Mt. Hood chapter of the Pacific Crest Trail will hold their annual meeting
at 
the Beaverton Library Meeting Room 12375 SW Fifth St. 1-3PM Saturday Jan 24 
2004. Jonathan Ley who has done the P.C.T. and the C.D.T. will be showing
and 
explaining digital photography in the backcountry. His photography is simply

superb. Also a short program on the accomplishment in trail maintenance that
the 
Mt. Hood chapter accomplished on 155 miles of trail in 2003. Coffee and
desert with a time for fellowship with backpackers you know and a 
chance to meet those you do not know.
>From experience, this is a pleasant way to spend a winter afternoon. 
>For any
info you might need E-mail jjk-jsk@aracnet.com
Brice Hammack

------------------------------

Message: 3
Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2004 11:55:43 -0800
From: "Joanne Lennox" <goforth@cio.net>
Subject: Re: [pct-l] How much food a day do you need?
To: "The Mountain Goat" <themtgoat@yahoo.com>,	"pct mailing list"
	<pct-l@mailman.backcountry.net>
Message-ID: <200401120430.i0C4UKch027953@cnwmail.isomedia.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

You slowly build up a energy debt; I do not know anybody that did not lose
some 
weight in the first two months.  In the last months, some people ,
especially women, gained some of the weight back.

Almost everybody puts too much food in their resupply boxes the first three
weeks, but very soon after that there is not enough.  you will always buy
some food if you can, and you look forward to the things that you can add. 
You might want to send the things that you will not be able to buy, or be
more ample in those resupply boxes where the choice will be limited,
especially if you are a picky eater or allergic to certain foods.  Resupply
boxes allow you to have more variety in your foods, which is critical to
staying upbeat in the hike.  I would not add too many things that you do not
eat at home - like energy bars.  By Sierra City I was tossing most of these
and still have an aversion to most of them.  I think a lot of people 
are using 5,000 calories a day at the end of the first month -depends on 
speed of hiking and temperatures and snow.

There were very few items that I added later, that I would have done better
having from the begaining : These were olive oil(improved every dinner),
spirulina and ground flax seeds (I was missing linoleic acid).

Years ago somebody posted a story that went something like this:  "I walked
into a convenience gas station at Lee Vining (near Yosemite), and bought a
bag of chips, a muffin, a sandwich, a candy bar, a soft drink.  When I
walked out, I did not remember having eaten any of it"!

I remember somebody inviting me for dinner with their family.  there was 5
other people at the dinner.  When I saw the food, I remember thinking, I
could easily eat it all myself.  I tried to eat about the same as they did,
it was painful.

Goforth




----------
> From: The Mountain Goat <themtgoat@yahoo.com>
> To: pct mailing list <pct-l@mailman.backcountry.net>
> Subject: [pct-l] How much food a day do you need?
> Date: Sunday, January 11, 2004 7:51 PM
> 
> Greetings again;
>  
> I have been working on the food needed for the PCT trip. I am one of
those dreaded pre-planners (sorry to those who prefer to buy food as you
go-hikers :-)...). I used to take about 1.25LB of food per day regardless of
length of trip. But a couple of my Backpacking buddies have told me that I
couldn't last because I would lose to much weight. 
>  
> First of all, I think they are right. I generally lose weight on most
backpacks, which isn't a problem is your only going out for 10 days, but we
are talking about the PCT here....
>  
> In your experience's....
> 1. How much food per day, do you generally take. (I am a male weighing
~142 pounds.)
> 2. Does anyone have a general calories to pounds conversion. Right now 
> I
am using 2000 calories to a pound. This is because there seems to be 1300 to
2700 calories to a pound depending on what type of food your taking. 2000
Being a nice middle ground number.
>  
> My current plan is to buy food based on what I think I need, then at 
> the
resupply points buy extra food, after I have a good feel for what my body
requires...
>  
> Thanks in advance.....
> -Mountain Goat-
>  
>  
>  
> 
> 
> 
> ---------------------------------
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the "Signing Bonus" Sweepstakes 
> _______________________________________________
> pct-l mailing list
> pct-l@mailman.backcountry.net
> unsubscribe or change options: 
> http://mailman.hack.net/mailman/listinfo/pct-l

------------------------------

Message: 4
Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2004 21:41:42 -0800 (PST)
From: <brentramsby-pct@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [pct-l] How much food a day do you need?
To: The Mountain Goat <themtgoat@yahoo.com>,	pct mailing list
	<pct-l@mailman.backcountry.net>
Message-ID: <20040112054142.58602.qmail@web60305.mail.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii


Hey Mountain Goat

Trying to figure out how much you need to eat isn't as easy as you would
think.  There are many variables which influence your calorie intake
requirements (or hunger level) on any given day.  For me, temperature
affected my hunger more than anything else.  When daytime highs were over
100 degrees, I ate much less than average.  When daytime temperatures were
below 40 degrees, i ate much more than average.  

My Profile
- 2003 thru-hiker
- 33 yr old male
- 140 lbs
- vegetarian
- normal metabolism = "rabbit-like"

My Experience
- maintained 140 lbs prior to reaching onyx
- lost 10 lbs between onyx & kennedy meadows (giardia)
- gained back 10 lbs between km and washington
- lost 5 lbs in the 2 weeks prior to reaching manning park (very cold
weather)

Normal day
- Breakfast: 800-900 cal
- Midmorning snack: 600-700 cal
- Lunch: 800-1000 cal
- Midafternoon snack: 600-700 cal
- Late afternoon snack: 200-300 cal
- Dinner: 800-1000 cal
- Midnight snack: 200-300 cal
------------------------------
Average = 4,450 cal


As far as trying to figure out weight, 2000 calories per pound is a good
goal.  I made my own dehydrated food and was able get 2500-3000 calories per
pound fairly easily.  Anything over 3000 calories per pound started to taste
really oily.

If you want to dig into your nutritional requirements and how your body
processes food, take a look at a book called "Endurance Sports Nutrition."
I found it very helpful.

-Teflon



--- The Mountain Goat <themtgoat@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Greetings again;
>  
> I have been working on the food needed for the PCT trip. I am one of 
> those dreaded pre-planners (sorry to those who prefer to buy food as 
> you go-hikers :-)...). I used to take about 1.25LB of food per day 
> regardless of length of trip. But a couple of my Backpacking buddies 
> have told me that I couldn't last because I would lose to much weight.
>  
> First of all, I think they are right. I generally lose weight on most 
> backpacks, which isn't a problem is your only going out for 10 days, 
> but we are talking about the PCT here....
>  
> In your experience's....
> 1. How much food per day, do you generally take. (I am a male weighing 
> ~142 pounds.) 2. Does anyone have a general calories to pounds 
> conversion. Right now I am using 2000 calories to a pound. This is 
> because there seems to be 1300 to 2700 calories to a pound depending 
> on what type of food your taking. 2000 Being a nice middle ground 
> number.
>  
> My current plan is to buy food based on what I think I need, then at 
> the resupply points buy extra food, after I have a good feel for what 
> my body requires...
>  
> Thanks in advance.....
> -Mountain Goat-
>  
>  
>  
> 
> 
> 
> ---------------------------------
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the "Signing Bonus" Sweepstakes 
> _______________________________________________
> pct-l mailing list
> pct-l@mailman.backcountry.net
> unsubscribe or change options: 
> http://mailman.hack.net/mailman/listinfo/pct-l


------------------------------

Message: 5
Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2004 21:52:08 -0800 (PST)
From: <brentramsby-pct@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [pct-l] Digital Camera and Cold Weather
To: Marshall Karon <m.karon@comcast.net>, Pct-L
	<pct-l@mailman.backcountry.net>
Message-ID: <20040112055208.5827.qmail@web60302.mail.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii


I used an olympus 3040 during my 2003 thru hike.  I didn't have any problems
with temps up to 115 deg F or temps down in the 20's.  I only needed 2 sets
of photo-lithium batteries for the entire trip. 
The first set lasted all the way to Goat Rocks.

-Teflon  


--- Marshall Karon <m.karon@comcast.net> wrote:
> For those who have digital cameras, do they work at sub-freezing 
> temperatures? At desert temperatures?
> 
> The specs I've seen rate them from Freezing (32) to 104 degrees F. It 
> has been known to get below freezing sometimes on the PCT and often 
> when out skiing or snow shoeing. And I'm sure some of those desert 
> temperatures were over 100.
> 
> Marshall Karon
> Portland, OR
> m.karon@comcast.net _______________________________________________
> pct-l mailing list
> pct-l@mailman.backcountry.net
> unsubscribe or change options:
> http://mailman.hack.net/mailman/listinfo/pct-l


------------------------------

Message: 6
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 00:00:18 -0800
From: JAMES <jas8313@adelphia.net>
Subject: [pct-l] Denver wedding
To: pct-l@mailman.backcountry.net
Message-ID: <20040112080009.SNJB1423.mta9.adelphia.net@sir-james>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Another alternative is to go out thru kings canyon to Fresno --- you can get
a thru flight to Denver used the 22 and 28 with a fare of 342... but playing
with the dates you may be able to do better...

if you leave KM on the 16th its 3 days to  Whitney.. 1 day to climb.. 1 or 2
day north to where 
you can drop down to Kings Canyon... via bubbs creek, woods creek or kings
river... and 
that give you a day to get to the airport.. 

About 75 miles to Fresno and the airport is on the east side of town and
only 2 miles north of 
state 170 the road from kings cyn..

james

Message: 11 
Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2004 16:12:07 -0800 (PST) 
From: Karin Claus <karinclaus@yahoo.com> 
Subject: [pct-l] Kennedy Meadow Transportation 
Howdy! 
I've got a question - for yall.
I plan on starting in April for the kickoff. (!!!!) 
I hope to be at Kennedy Meadows for "ray day".
But, I need to be back in Denver for a wedding on June 
26th. Are there easy spots to get off the trail (and 
get back on a week later) (around Kennedy Meadows or a 
wee bit farther) to catch a Greyhound bus?
I've got my California guide book on order, but 
haven't received it yet.
Thanks, 
Karin

You Are Never Too Old To Begin A Thru Hike
SirJames from Southern California
Candidate ... PCT Class of 2008


------------------------------

Message: 7
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 03:10:20 EST
From: CMountainDave@aol.com
Subject: Re: [pct-l] Snow Camping in Washington
To: pct-l@mailman.backcountry.net
Message-ID: <12f.393cfdf2.2d33b06c@aol.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"


In a message dated 1/11/04 5:37:35 PM, gray_hiker@mindpoison.org writes:

<< A group of friends and I want to try out some snow camping the weekend of
Jan 31st. Any suggestions on somewhere that we could go to camp, that we
wouldn't have to walk terribly far to get to, yet still be surrounded by
snowy nature goodness? >>


Paradise on Mt. Rainier is always good. The mountaineering class I helped 
teach used to go there and dig snow caves very close to the parking lot (100

yards). You need about 10 feet of snow. You can also hike very safely about
a mile 
and a half to a place called Mazama Ridge using snowshoes or skis and just 
camp. There is a very large flat area about 2 square miles in size beyond
the 
ridge. You gain about 500 - 750' in elevation. The ranger station is sure to

have a trail map. It is popular for snow camping but by no means crowded
David C

------------------------------

Message: 8
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 03:22:28 EST
From: CMountainDave@aol.com
Subject: Re: [pct-l] How much food a day do you need?
To: pct-l@mailman.backcountry.net
Message-ID: <126.389a9b66.2d33b344@aol.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"


In a message dated 1/11/04 7:52:16 PM, themtgoat@yahoo.com writes:

<< I have been working on the food needed for the PCT trip. I am one of
those 
dreaded pre-planners (sorry to those who prefer to buy food as you go-hikers

:-)...). I used to take about 1.25LB of food per day regardless of length of

trip. But a couple of my Backpacking buddies have told me that I couldn't
last 
because I would lose to much weight. >>


I agree that 1.25 pounds is way too little. I averaged about 2 pounds a day 
but there are so many variables such as elevation gain per section, personal

tastes, type of food that a firm figure is difficult to come by. I found
that in 
the Sierra, 3 lbs a day would not have been too much. I remember eating an 
entire pound of Oreo's for a mid morning snack. I weigh about the same as
you.   
  David C

------------------------------

Message: 9
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 03:31:53 EST
From: Slyatpct@aol.com
Subject: Re: [pct-l] How much food a day do you need?
To: brentramsby-pct@yahoo.com, pct-l@mailman.backcountry.net
Message-ID: <102.3c803edd.2d33b579@aol.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"

Normal day
- Breakfast: 800-900 cal
- Midmorning snack: 600-700 cal
- Lunch: 800-1000 cal
- Midafternoon snack: 600-700 cal
- Late afternoon snack: 200-300 cal
- Dinner: 800-1000 cal
- Midnight snack: 200-300 cal

Could you pass on just what you were eating?

Thanks,

Sly

------------------------------

Message: 10
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 00:31:41 -0800
From: JAMES <jas8313@adelphia.net>
Subject: [pct-l] PCT 2004 Candidates via AIR TRAVEL
To: pct-l@mailman.backcountry.net
Message-ID: <20040112083213.OWRK1458.mta10.adelphia.net@sir-james>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Some of the Class of 2004 candidates will be comming from out of the
country, 
the east coast and other areas where you will need to get to Southern
California via air travel. To help you determine where you want to fly into
.. here are the airport located in the area..

SAN DIEGO - SAN

LOS ANGELES INTERNATIONAL - LAX
ORANGE COUNTY - JOHN WAYNE - SNA
ONTARIO - LOS ANGELES CNTY - ONT
LONG BEACH - LOS ANGELES CNTY - LGB
BURBANK - LOS ANGELES CNTY - BUR - smaller regional

Note to check out SOUTHWEST Airlines for good fares

INTERNATIONAL candidates may want to post to the list where they need to fly
from so to make arrangements with some of the PCT Angels so they can come in
a few days early.  Others may also want to post where they will be coming
from to see if you can have someone to travel with...

I plan to attend kick off and will be able to host several hikers.. 


You Are Never Too Old To Begin A Thru Hike
SirJames from Southern California
Candidate ... PCT Class of 2008


------------------------------

Message: 11
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 00:43:47 -0800
From: "Marshall Karon" <m.karon@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: [pct-l] How much food a day do you need?
To: <pct-l@mailman.backcountry.net>
Message-ID: <000601c3d8e8$31cbadb0$6401a8c0@YOUR357898FF1F>
Content-Type: text/plain;	charset="iso-8859-1"

It is not just the pounds of food, but the quality. You need high calorie,
high protein, and high fat. Take olive oil for the fat and use at least 1
tablespoon in cooked meals, hummus, etc. After a month, I would have loved
to have carried 3 lbs per day, but that was just too much weight and bulk,
so 2 lbs had to do. Unless you are totally seasoned, you will lose weight.
Be careful at resupply stops that you don't eat too much - you will feel
bloated and take several days to get your hiking fitness back. Unless you
have done something like this a few times, you really are guessing at how
much you need. That is part of the adventure. And being able to eat a gallon
of ice cream and not worry about it is heaven.

Hopefully you will have someone sending you packages. Call them to adjust
what you need - add more, take away stuff you can't stand, etc. Supplement
at stores along the way.

Marshall Karon
Portland, OR
m.karon@comcast.net

----- Original Message ----- 
From: <CMountainDave@aol.com>
To: <pct-l@mailman.backcountry.net>
Sent: Monday, January 12, 2004 12:22 AM
Subject: Re: [pct-l] How much food a day do you need?


>
> In a message dated 1/11/04 7:52:16 PM, themtgoat@yahoo.com writes:
>
> << I have been working on the food needed for the PCT trip. I am one 
> of
those
> dreaded pre-planners (sorry to those who prefer to buy food as you
go-hikers
> :-)...). I used to take about 1.25LB of food per day regardless of 
> length
of
> trip. But a couple of my Backpacking buddies have told me that I 
> couldn't
last
> because I would lose to much weight. >>
>
>
> I agree that 1.25 pounds is way too little. I averaged about 2 pounds 
> a
day
> but there are so many variables such as elevation gain per section,
personal
> tastes, type of food that a firm figure is difficult to come by. I 
> found
that in
> the Sierra, 3 lbs a day would not have been too much. I remember 
> eating an entire pound of Oreo's for a mid morning snack. I weigh 
> about the same as
you.
>   David C
> _______________________________________________
> pct-l mailing list
> pct-l@mailman.backcountry.net
> unsubscribe or change options: 
> http://mailman.hack.net/mailman/listinfo/pct-l


------------------------------

Message: 12
Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2004 11:41:59 -0500
From: alfrei@wm.edu
Subject: [pct-l] (no subject)
To: "pct-l@mailman.backcountry.net" <pct-l@mailman.backcountry.net>
Message-ID: <5940edfd.ff093f83.8185b00@m4000.it.wm.edu>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Hi,

Can anyone give me any advice about mosquitoes on the 
trail??  I am planning on hiking for three weeks in Oregon 
in late May, but am worried that the mosquitoes will be 
unbearable.  Are they that bad?  Should I plan to go in 
August instead?

Any advice would be great!

Thanks,
Andrea

------------------------------

Message: 13
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 05:37:05 -0800
From: "Judson Brown" <judsonb@internetcds.com>
Subject: RE: [pct-l] (no subject)
To: <alfrei@wm.edu>, <pct-l@mailman.backcountry.net>
Message-ID: <000001c3d911$2b6470a0$c35df142@pounder>
Content-Type: text/plain;	charset="us-ascii"

<<Hi,

Can anyone give me any advice about mosquitoes on the
trail??  I am planning on hiking for three weeks in Oregon
in late May, but am worried that the mosquitoes will be unbearable.  Are
they that bad?  Should I plan to go in August instead?

Any advice would be great!

Thanks,
Andrea>>


You will have no problem whatsoever in May because no part of OR is hikeable
at that time. The lowest part of the OR PCT are hikeable in June, but they
are not extensive. Most of the trail is cover w/ snow until July 4th or so,
leaving July as the bad skeeter month. Either pick a different time or a
different place. These statements are based on 25 yrs. experience in the
Oregon Cascades.

Judson
Ashland



------------------------------

Message: 14
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 08:53:38 EST
From: StoneDancer1@aol.com
Subject: Re: [pct-l] How much food a day do you need?
To: pct-l@mailman.backcountry.net
Message-ID: <1d5.183573e6.2d3400e2@aol.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"

A conversion of pounds of food to calories in not quite so easy...however, 
the exercise will get you through the winter while waiting for the trail.  A

gram of protein yields 4 calories and a gram of fat yields 9 calories.
While 
alcohol yields 7 calories per gram, it is not necessarily a good idea to 
substitute alcohol for protein. <G>




No Way
Ray Echols

------------------------------

Message: 15
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 09:52:17 EST
From: CMountainDave@aol.com
Subject: [pct-l] dogmatism
To: pct-l@backcountry.net
Message-ID: <10f.2ae4f4c5.2d340ea1@aol.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"

At 05:41 PM 1/10/04, CMountainDave@aol.com wrote:
>  Put the
>rope around a tree until its mid point. Then tie both ends to something 
>on your body or around your waist. Then cross. If you slip the rope 
>will keep you from going too far down stream

<<Actually, the rope will pull you under and keep you there until you
drown.>>


______This is a little too black and white for me. A better statement would 
start with, "it is possible that"  ---  and end with ---  "so therefore one 
should think carefully before making a decision to cross a creek roped up." 
Someone wanted to know HOW to cross a creek using a rope. The final part of
my 
original post, "no guarantees" was somehow conveniently left out
 
As a Mountaineer of some 40 years I have learned that dogmatic statements 
like "you should never" or "you should always" are a load of crap. Every 
situation is unique and every situation involving chance involves decisions
of the 
moment, not rules
   David C


------------------------------

Message: 16
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 10:00:16 EST
From: CMountainDave@aol.com
Subject: Re: [pct-l] (no subject)
To: pct-l@mailman.backcountry.net
Message-ID: <6a.3a4d5d49.2d341080@aol.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"


In a message dated 1/12/04 12:59:24 AM, alfrei@wm.edu writes:

<< Can anyone give me any advice about mosquitoes on the 
trail??  I am planning on hiking for three weeks in Oregon 
in late May, but am worried that the mosquitoes will be 
unbearable.  Are they that bad?  Should I plan to go in 
August instead?
 >>


You certainly won't have to worry about mosquitoes in May in Oregon. The 
likelihood is you will be traveling on snow at elevations of above, say
3500', is 
pretty good. August would be a better month if you want to avoid both snow
and 
mosquitoes
 David C

------------------------------

Message: 17
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 10:18:58 EST
From: Lonetrail@aol.com
Subject: Re: [pct-l] (mosquitos)
To: judsonb@internetcds.com, pct-l@mailman.backcountry.net,
	alfrei@wm.edu
Message-ID: <d3.2706d6a9.2d3414e2@aol.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"

Opps Sorry

Hit the wrong key Early Winter (earlywinters.com) a out door store like 
Campnor has or had on sale a mosquitoes netting covering you from head to
foot. I 
usually only carry a head net. With netting covering you on a hot night you
can 
laugh at those buzzing blood sucking #@%&. I don't like applying deet three 
time a day for a month, they also have deet on sale. For you women or men
who 
want to decorate your camp site, check this out. I rhink my dog wound find
them 
interesting to pee on.

Be the envy of the entire campground with our Flamingo Tent Stakes! Ordinary
tent stakes are exactly that: Ordinary. And when you're camping, who 
wants to have an ordinary camp site? These tent stakes kick up the color,
get 
a few laughs and add a bit of punch to the camp ground. When staked into the

ground (5-1/2" deep), each inflatable bird made of ripstop nylon with an 
aluminum stake measures 17" tall. Imported. Color: pink.

lonetrail

    




> In a message dated 1/12/04 5:36:46 AM Pacific Standard Time,
> judsonb@internetcds.com writes:
> 
> 
> >> <<Hi,
>> 
>> Can anyone give me any advice about mosquitoes on the trail??  I am 
>> planning on hiking for three weeks in Oregon in late May, but am 
>> worried that the mosquitoes will be unbearable.  Are they that bad?  
>> Should I plan to go in August instead?
>> 
>> Any advice would be great!
>> 
>> Thanks,
>> Andrea>>
>> 
> 


------------------------------

Message: 18
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 09:20:34 -0600
From: "Robert B Smith" <rsmithat99@cox.net>
Subject: [pct-l] 5 gal bucket
To: <pct-l@mailman.backcountry.net>
Message-ID: <002f01c3d91f$a00372e0$b23e0144@pn.at.cox.net>
Content-Type: text/plain;	charset="iso-8859-1"

I recently posted a question about using 5 gal buckets as a bounce box (?).
Based on the really good advice given I plan to use a 5 gal bucket. Using a
bucket is something I would have never thought of but it made sense to me
right off/

Thanks to everyone for the responses.
Waterboy

------------------------------

Message: 19
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 07:56:12 -0800
From: "Randy Forsland" <randy_forsland@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [pct-l] (mosquitos)
To: <pct-l@mailman.backcountry.net>
Message-ID: <Law10-OE13ggtbCt6Af0002c8d1@hotmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;	charset="iso-8859-1"

I brought one of the bugshirts from Campmor with me last season and it
worked out well.

As long as you kept moving, the skeeters could not get at you. As with most
shirts, they could find a vulnerable  spot to penetrate if you just sat
around though. It was light, very cool and allowed me to go virtually DEET
free for most of the trip..

15 bucks well spent...

The shirt from Campmor had a hood, but did not cover the face , so I
supplemented it with a head net at times.

Redwood
----- Original Message ----- 
From: <Lonetrail@aol.com>
To: <judsonb@internetcds.com>; <pct-l@mailman.backcountry.net>;
<alfrei@wm.edu>
Sent: Monday, January 12, 2004 7:18 AM
Subject: Re: [pct-l] (mosquitos)


> Opps Sorry
>
> Hit the wrong key Early Winter (earlywinters.com) a out door store 
> like Campnor has or had on sale a mosquitoes netting covering you from 
> head to
foot. I
> usually only carry a head net. With netting covering you on a hot 
> night
you can
> laugh at those buzzing blood sucking #@%&. I don't like applying deet
three
> time a day for a month, they also have deet on sale. For you women or 
> men
who
> want to decorate your camp site, check this out. I rhink my dog wound 
> find
them
> interesting to pee on.

------------------------------

Message: 20
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 08:07:01 -0800
From: "Randy Forsland" <randy_forsland@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [pct-l] (mosquitos)
To: <pct-l@mailman.backcountry.net>
Message-ID: <Law10-OE18JbgOy145n0002c5d2@hotmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;	charset="iso-8859-1"

I may have to pick up a set of those tent stakes for trail angels Joe and
Terri Anderson of the Lunatic Lounge..

What deranged designer came up with that idea ??

Redwood


----- Original Message ----- >
> Be the envy of the entire campground with our Flamingo Tent Stakes! 
> Ordinary tent stakes are exactly that: Ordinary. And when you're 
> camping,
who
> wants to have an ordinary camp site? These tent stakes kick up the 
> color,
get
> a few laughs and add a bit of punch to the camp ground. When staked 
> into
the
> ground (5-1/2" deep), each inflatable bird made of ripstop nylon with 
> an aluminum stake measures 17" tall. Imported. Color: pink.
>
> lonetrail
>

------------------------------

Message: 21
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 11:39:42 EST
From: Bighummel@aol.com
Subject: Re: [pct-l] PCT Class of 2004 Gear 
To: Hiker97@aol.com, pct-l@mailman.backcountry.net
Message-ID: <72.36960d16.2d3427ce@aol.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"

Switchback writes:
I would like to see a stuffed-off at the April Kickoff Gathering between the

Garcia and the BearVault.  
Maybe.  BearVault has contributed two of their new bear canisters, as 
described, to the ADZ and will be offered, one as a prize in the Gear
Contest 
(AGPLDHG&IR) and one will be auctioned in the Silent Auction.

------------------------------

Message: 22
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 08:49:55 -0800 (PST)
From: Ben Armstrong <benarmstrong1@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [pct-l] dogmatism
To: pct-l@backcountry.net
Message-ID: <20040112164955.15212.qmail@web21007.mail.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

CMountainDave@aol.com wrote:
 
"Every 
situation is unique and every situation involving chance involves decisions
of the 
moment, not rules"
 
Agreed.  For more on this issue, please see Laurence Gonzales' recently
published book entitled, Deep Survival: Who Lives, Who Dies, and Why
................
 
This book may inspire healthy revelations and insights about your wilderness
experiences.  It will cause you to have flashbacks.
 
Ben Armstrong



---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the "Signing Bonus" SweepstakesFrom
m.karon@comcast.net  Mon Jan 12 10:59:05 2004
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From: "Marshall Karon" <m.karon@comcast.net>
To: <pct-l@mailman.backcountry.net>
References: <000001c3d911$2b6470a0$c35df142@pounder>
Subject: Re: [pct-l] Oregon Mosquitoes
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 08:58:58 -0800
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As others have written, Oregon is blanketed in snow in late May. By the end
of June, you can hike without snow in the lower elevations. The Sisters
still has snow on the 4th of July, but you can get by. And that is when the
mosquitoes start. in most years the bugs are gone by the end of July, but
not always.

If you want to hike the PCT in May, go to southern California.

Marshall Karon
Portland, OR
m.karon@comcast.net

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Judson Brown" <judsonb@internetcds.com>
To: <alfrei@wm.edu>; <pct-l@mailman.backcountry.net>
Sent: Monday, January 12, 2004 5:37 AM
Subject: RE: [pct-l] (no subject)


> <<Hi,
>
> Can anyone give me any advice about mosquitoes on the
> trail??  I am planning on hiking for three weeks in Oregon
> in late May, but am worried that the mosquitoes will be unbearable.  
> Are they that bad?  Should I plan to go in August instead?
>
> Any advice would be great!
>
> Thanks,
> Andrea>>
>
>
> You will have no problem whatsoever in May because no part of OR is
hikeable
> at that time. The lowest part of the OR PCT are hikeable in June, but 
> they are not extensive. Most of the trail is cover w/ snow until July 
> 4th or
so,
> leaving July as the bad skeeter month. Either pick a different time or 
> a different place. These statements are based on 25 yrs. experience in 
> the Oregon Cascades.
>
> Judson
> Ashland
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> pct-l mailing list
> pct-l@mailman.backcountry.net
> unsubscribe or change options: 
> http://mailman.hack.net/mailman/listinfo/pct-l


------------------------------

Message: 23
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 09:51:44 -0800
From: Jim Keener <jkeener@pct04.com>
Subject: [pct-l] Gear List
To: Pacific Crest Trail <pct-l@mailman.backcountry.net>
Message-ID: <BC281EB0.2012%jkeener@pct04.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII

Greetings:

Well, here goes. I'm asking for feedback on my gear list:

http://pct04.com/planninig/gear.pdf

Thanks in advance.

Peace,
Jim

http://pct04.com



------------------------------

Message: 24
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 08:55:43 -0800
From: "Scott  Kimler" <tuxnus@telus.net>
Subject: [pct-l] For Sale - Border to Border Video
To: <pct-l@mailman.backcountry.net>
Message-ID: <000801c3d92c$eaf7c280$0200a8c0@telus.net>
Content-Type: text/plain;	charset="iso-8859-1"

For Sale:  Border to Border:  Hiking 2515 Miles on the Pacific Crest Trail

A good video documenting a couples journey on the trail.  Gives you an idea
of what it might be like.  

Price:  $10 plus shipping (about $3)
Contact:   tuxnus@yahoo.comFrom tuxnus@telus.net  Mon Jan 12 11:16:01 2004
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From: "Scott  Kimler" <tuxnus@telus.net>
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Subject: [pct-l] For Sale - Forest Service Trail Maps
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USDA Forest Service Trail Maps
    5 maps in all, covering Oregon and Washington.

Price:  $8 plus shipping (about $3)
Contact:  tuxnus@yahoo.com

------------------------------

Message: 25
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 09:13:16 -0800
From: "Scott  Kimler" <tuxnus@telus.net>
Subject: [pct-l] For Sale - PCT Hiker's Handbook
To: <pct-l@mailman.backcountry.net>
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Content-Type: text/plain;	charset="iso-8859-1"

Ray Jardine's book

The Pacific Crest Trail Hiker's Handbook for the Long Distance Hiker

New Condition.  Asking $12 plus shipping.
Contact:  tuxnus@yahoo.comFrom rogers@jib.isi.edu  Mon Jan 12 12:28:44 2004
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Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 10:32:35 -0800
From: Craig Milo Rogers <rogers@isi.edu>
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Subject: [pct-l] Grand Prix Fire Probably Not Arson, and More
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	Investigators have announced that last fall's Grand Prix
fire, which contributed to PCT closures affecting SOBO hikers, was probably
started by out-of-bounds human activity, but was probably not intentionally
set.

http://www.sacbee.com/state_wire/story/8075684p-9008225c.html

	In other news, a 15-year old hiker fell off a trail and died
somewhere near Devore:

http://www.sacbee.com/state_wire/story/8082787p-9015245c.html

	The woman who was attacked by the mountain lion "while cycling in a
wilderness area" (don't you love reporters) is doing better:

http://www.sacbee.com/state_wire/story/8082651p-9015111c.html

	There's a rather gory article about some of the victims of the fires
last fall:

http://www.sacbee.com/state_wire/story/8075685p-9008226c.html

	Another man died after accidentally driving into the California
Aqueduct near Palmdale:

http://www.sacbee.com/state_wire/story/8076032p-9008576c.html

					Craig "Computer" Rogers

------------------------------

Message: 26
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 10:53:28 -0800
From: Hiker <hiker@godlikebuthumble.com>
Subject: Re: [pct-l] dogmatism
To: pct-l@backcountry.net
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20040112103752.038948a0@fastpack.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed

At 08:49 AM 1/12/04, Ben Armstrong wrote:
>"Every situation is unique and every situation involving chance 
>involves
>decisions of the
>moment, not rules"

Yes, this is absolutely true, and a long post explaining the pros and cons 
of using a rope belay and explaining technique would have been more 
technically accurate, but we live in a "sound-byte" culture where a short 
and concise message is most likely to be read. Especially one where a 
mishap would likely lead to death.

There have been MANY cases of a rope causing the death by drowning of the 
person fording a swift creek by pulling and holding the forder under. So 
many in fact that I was taught it is generally accepted that the forder 
must have a quick release on the rope attachment.

Since most thru hikers are not going to have the correct equipment, nor the 
experience using it, a short reply saying it is a bad thing to do makes 
more sense to me.

I will make another dogmatic statement: "Leaving Kennedy Meadows in a 
normal snow year without an Ice Axe, and the knowledge how to use it, is 
risking death."

Use the delete key if I offend you.



------------------------------

Message: 27
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 14:06:32 EST
From: CMountainDave@aol.com
Subject: Re: [pct-l] dogmatism
To: pct-l@backcountry.net
Message-ID: <37.42ef456d.2d344a38@aol.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"


In a message dated 1/12/04 8:50:41 AM, benarmstrong1@yahoo.com writes:

<< Agreed.  For more on this issue, please see Laurence Gonzales' recently 
published book entitled, Deep Survival: Who Lives, Who Dies, and Why 
................ >>


Thanks for the tip - Just ordered it. David C

------------------------------

Message: 28
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 12:08:17 -0700
From: "Jerry Goller" <jerrygoller@backpackgeartest.org>
Subject: RE: [pct-l] PCT Class of 2004 Gear 
To: <pct-l@mailman.backcountry.net>
Message-ID: <013301c3d93f$706bdcf0$6502a8c0@toshibauser>
Content-Type: text/plain;	charset="us-ascii"

Just for general interest, we're going to be testing these in the next few
weeks on BGT. There will be 5 testers. One of the things they will be
looking at is how much food they will hold and how easy to pack they are.
Jerry

http://www.BackpackGearTest.org : the most comprehensive interactive gear
reviews and tests on the planet.



-----Original Message-----
From: pct-l-bounces@mailman.backcountry.net
[mailto:pct-l-bounces@mailman.backcountry.net] On Behalf Of
Bighummel@aol.com
Sent: Monday, January 12, 2004 9:40 AM
To: Hiker97@aol.com; pct-l@mailman.backcountry.net
Subject: Re: [pct-l] PCT Class of 2004 Gear 


Switchback writes:
I would like to see a stuffed-off at the April Kickoff Gathering between the

Garcia and the BearVault.  
Maybe.  BearVault has contributed two of their new bear canisters, as 
described, to the ADZ and will be offered, one as a prize in the Gear
Contest 
(AGPLDHG&IR) and one will be auctioned in the Silent Auction.
_______________________________________________
pct-l mailing list
pct-l@mailman.backcountry.net
unsubscribe or change options:
http://mailman.hack.net/mailman/listinfo/pct-l



------------------------------

Message: 29
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 11:44:46 -0800
From: "Marshall Karon" <m.karon@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: [pct-l] Gear List
To: "Jim Keener" <jkeener@pct04.com>,	"Pacific Crest Trail"
	<pct-l@mailman.backcountry.net>
Message-ID: <001a01c3d944$88bd3290$6401a8c0@YOUR357898FF1F>
Content-Type: text/plain;	charset="iso-8859-1"

List looks pretty good. My comments:

You are presuming that you need more gear in the Sierras than elsewhere -
probably not true. I found the Sierras to be warm enough so I didn't need
extra equipment (except possibly ice axe, different boots, more socks).
Washington proved to be the coldest and rainiest of all. You may find you
can do with the lighter sleeping bag and liner the whole trip.

I didn't see extra socks. You need at least 3 pair (outer and liners). OK
not to have extra hiking shorts and tops.

    Umbrella ???
    Crampons - you probably won't need them.
    Floppy Hat - you may want it in Oregon/Washington for rain.
    Acerteryx  - you probably only need 1 warm fleece top and maybe a light
weight polypropylene shirt
    Long johns - probably not needed in the Sierras (presuming Gore-tex
feels OK on the skin)
    Caps - you probably only need one warm hat
    Mosquito Net - you won't need it in Washington
    Ski gloves - not sure how thick these are - probably warm fleece gloves
and wind/water mitts would work
    Wipes - ??? - how about just a small camp towel
    First aid stuff - you probably won't need most of it
    Water carrier - you will need extra water capacity for the desert -
either a water bag or carry jugs of water


Marshall Karon
Portland, OR
m.karon@comcast.net

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jim Keener" <jkeener@pct04.com>
To: "Pacific Crest Trail" <pct-l@mailman.backcountry.net>
Sent: Monday, January 12, 2004 9:51 AM
Subject: [pct-l] Gear List


> Greetings:
>
> Well, here goes. I'm asking for feedback on my gear list:
>
> http://pct04.com/planninig/gear.pdf
>
> Thanks in advance.
>
> Peace,
> Jim
>
> http://pct04.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> pct-l mailing list
> pct-l@mailman.backcountry.net
> unsubscribe or change options: 
> http://mailman.hack.net/mailman/listinfo/pct-l


------------------------------

Message: 30
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 11:49:10 -0800 (PST)
From: The Mountain Goat <themtgoat@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [pct-l] How much food a day do you need?
To: pct mailing list <pct-l@mailman.backcountry.net>
Message-ID: <20040112194910.48554.qmail@web40907.mail.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Good point. Even when I am getting ready for a trip, I only hike 1 day a
week, at 8-10 hours.(For those interested, I live in Butte County, and one
of my favorite warm up hikes is at Belden, going up into Bucks lake
Wilderness. Some might think I am a masochist, but this is the PCT list. It
is what you have to do to get into shape :-)... )

-Mt Goat-

Marshall Karon <m.karon@comcast.net> wrote:
Biggest problem for me was after the hike. Since you are on somewhat a
starvation diet, when you stop you start eating and gaining weight. I am
heavier now than I ever was. After all, who exercises 8-10 hours a day, 6-7
days a week for 5 months.
 
Have a great hike!
 
Marshall Karon



---------------------------------
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Subject: Re: [pct-l] Gear List
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Marshall Karon <m.karon@comcast.net> wrote:

First aid stuff - you probably won't need most of it
but you might.ive carried a far larger first aid kit in the backcountry for
over 30 years,and on almost all of those trips it was "excess" weight,but on
the 2 occasions i used it (both for large deep gashes)i really needed
it.having the right first aid equiment made it possible for me to get out to
help without bleeding to death.  don`t be an "ounce weenie" with your first
aid kit,it could save your life.rob

.



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From: John Coyle <jcoyle@sanjuan.edu>
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Subject: [pct-l] RE: Photographs of the PCT
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Does anyone know of any sites that specialize in photographs of the PCT.  I
would be interested in photos from anywhere on the PCT, but especially in
the Northern California area since I frequent that area most.  I would like
to find a site that mostly diplays photos or galleries of the PCT with a
minimum of technical content.  Is such a thing out there?

Thanks in advance
JAYCO

-----Original Message-----
From: pct-l-request@mailman.backcountry.net
[mailto:pct-l-request@mailman.backcountry.net]
Sent: Friday, January 09, 2004 3:43 PM
To: pct-l@mailman.backcountry.net
Subject: pct-l Digest, Vol 9, Issue 7


Send pct-l mailing list submissions to
	pct-l@mailman.backcountry.net

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Today's Topics:

   1. Re: Re: Early season Streams Techniques and problem creeks (Hiker)
   2. Fw: [pct-l] 5 gal buckets bounce box (Ken Powers)
   3. RE: Re: Early season Streams Techniques and problem creeks
      (Robert Ellinwood)
   4. Re: Early season Streams Techniques and problem creeks
      (Bob Bankhead)
   5. Re: Re: Early season Streams Techniques and problem creeks
      (CMountainDave@aol.com)
   6. RE: Re: Early season Streams Techniques and problem creeks
      (Brian Bowlsby)
   7. historic weather data for California (Plotnikoff, David)
   8. RE: Re: Early season Streams Techniques and problem  creeks
      (Hiker)
   9. Re: 5 gal buckets bounce box /What can you mail USPS
      (The Mountain Goat)
  10. Re: weather log (CMountainDave@aol.com)
  11. Re: weather log (dude)
  12. need some help (JoAnn M. Michael)
  13. Re: Convenced,,,,! (Joanne Lennox)
  14. weather log (The Weathercarrot)
  15. RE: northern cascades (robert vance)
  16. new section K? (Judson Brown)
  17. Re: new section K? (robert vance)
  18. Re: new section K? (CMountainDave@aol.com)
  19. Mountain Lion (Lonetrail@aol.com)
  20. Also in the news from Orange County (Bighummel@aol.com)
  21. Re: Also in the news from Orange County (CMountainDave@aol.com)
  22. Deer question? (Slyatpct@aol.com)
  23. Re: Deer question? (Edmond Meinfelder)
  24. Re: Gear Test Notifications - Tabulations to date
      (DANIEL ALAN ERDMAN)
  25. Re: Gear Test Notifications - Tabulations to date
      (Slyatpct@aol.com)
  26. Ice axe size (Beth Murdock)
  27. Re: Deer question? (Ilja Friedel)
  28. Re: Ice axe size (CMountainDave@aol.com)
  29. Re: Ice axe size (Marshall Karon)
  30. Kennedy Meadows Start (Gene Neagle)
  31. Ice ax size (Gene Neagle)
  32. Re: Gear Test Notifications - Tabulations to date
      (Slyatpct@aol.com)
  33. Re: Gear Test Notifications - Tabulations to date (Ron Martino)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Thu, 08 Jan 2004 10:57:01 -0800
From: Hiker <hiker@godlikebuthumble.com>
Subject: Re: [pct-l] Re: Early season Streams Techniques and problem
	creeks
To: pct-l@mailman.backcountry.net
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20040108105019.02828b10@fastpack.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed

At 06:29 AM 1/8/04, StoneDancer1@aol.com wrote:
> >>>>>I'm surprised no one has mentioned Rush Creek. <<<<<

I crossed it on a snow bridge. My coldest night on the PCT was between 
Island Pass and Donahue Pass.....

While climbing up the sun-cupped snow to Donahue the next morning, there 
was a swarm of black winged butterflies. It started to sleet a little, and 
thousands of them ended up covering the snow. Beautiful, and kind of sad, 
all at the same time. I was SOO happy to make it back down to the snow free 
and relative warmth of Lyell canyon, only to be rudely asked for my permit 
by a gun-toting ranger on horse-back. And his horse was causing major 
damage to the soaking wet trails.

Welcome to Yosemite.
The least friendly National Park in my experience


------------------------------

Message: 2
Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2004 11:18:56 -0800
From: "Ken Powers" <kdpo@pacbell.net>
Subject: Fw: [pct-l] 5 gal buckets bounce box
To: <pct-l@backcountry.net>
Message-ID: <000601c3d61c$42dfd6e0$6501a8c0@pacbell.net>
Content-Type: text/plain;	charset="iso-8859-1"


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Ken Powers" <kdpo@pacbell.net>
To: "Kent Ryhorchuk" <kentr-lists@sbcglobal.net>
Sent: Thursday, January 08, 2004 11:18 AM
Subject: Re: [pct-l] 5 gal buckets bounce box


> I have heard of people using smaller plastics boxes for bounce boxes. 
> I don't remember the details, but I think they were fishing tackle 
> boxes. Maybe the larger sizes would work well. Ken
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Kent Ryhorchuk" <kentr-lists@sbcglobal.net>
> To: <pct-l@mailman.backcountry.net>
> Sent: Thursday, January 08, 2004 9:54 AM
> Subject: RE: [pct-l] 5 gal buckets bounce box
>
>
> > Cathy and I used 5-gal buckets for our drift boxes in 2002 and they 
> > lasted the whole trip (Mexico to Oregon). I highly recommend them, 
> > and will be using the same buckets this year. The post office never 
> > blinked when we brought them in, nor were we ever required to remove 
> > the handles. They do not exceed any large package dimensions so 
> > postage is only based on weight.
> >
> > I would keep the handle on because it makes it easier to carry 
> > around town if you have to. Write your last name on the side and use 
> > removable sticky labels (available at any office depot, etc.) on the 
> > lid for addressing. To keep the lids from popping off in transit we 
> > used 3M strapping tape to supplement the snap-on lid.
> >
> > The only possible downsides are the weight of the bucket (extra 
> > postage) and the less than optimal circular dimensions. They do not 
> > pack well. However, we never really filled them up. The last postage 
> > on our buckets (sent partially full of extra gear and town clothes) 
> > is priority mail, Ashland OR to Sunnyvale CA: $9.50.
> >
> > Later,
> > Kent.
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: pct-l-bounces@mailman.backcountry.net
> > [mailto:pct-l-bounces@mailman.backcountry.net] On Behalf Of Robert B 
> > Smith
> > Sent: Thursday, January 08, 2004 8:09 AM
> > To: pct-l@mailman.backcountry.net
> > Subject: [pct-l] 5 gal buckets bounce box
> >
> > I have seen a few entries where hikers stated that they used a 5 gal 
> > plastic bucket as a bounce box. Overall, how did this work out ?. 
> > How did the Post Office staff react to the bucket ?. I like the idea 
> > and see how it could be a good system. Also, did you remove the 
> > handle ?.
> >
> > Thanks
> > Wateboy
> > _______________________________________________
> > pct-l mailing list
> > pct-l@mailman.backcountry.net
> > unsubscribe or change options: 
> > http://mailman.hack.net/mailman/listinfo/pct-l
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > pct-l mailing list
> > pct-l@mailman.backcountry.net
> > unsubscribe or change options: 
> > http://mailman.hack.net/mailman/listinfo/pct-l
>


------------------------------

Message: 3
Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2004 14:25:20 -0500
From: "Robert Ellinwood" <rellinwood@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: RE: [pct-l] Re: Early season Streams Techniques and problem
	creeks
To: "'Hiker'" <hiker@godlikebuthumble.com>,
	<pct-l@mailman.backcountry.net>
Message-ID: <000001c3d61d$282b5530$3e794d0c@ellinwood>
Content-Type: text/plain;	charset="us-ascii"

Hiker writes:  "I crossed it on a snow bridge."

I've always been leery (read: chicken) about snow bridges, preferring to
wade.   Anyone ever fallen through on one?  Are there specific
techniques for "judging" a snow bridge from those who have crossed a number
of them?  How do you know it will hold you?  I assume one jumps over the
center part??

Bob (BobnShell)

> -----Original Message-----
> From: pct-l-bounces@mailman.backcountry.net [mailto:pct-l- 
> bounces@mailman.backcountry.net] On Behalf Of Hiker
> Sent: Thursday, January 08, 2004 1:57 PM
> To: pct-l@mailman.backcountry.net
> Subject: Re: [pct-l] Re: Early season Streams Techniques and problem
creeks
> 
> At 06:29 AM 1/8/04, StoneDancer1@aol.com wrote:
> > >>>>>I'm surprised no one has mentioned Rush Creek. <<<<<
> 
> I crossed it on a snow bridge. My coldest night on the PCT was between 
> Island Pass and Donahue Pass.....
> 
> While climbing up the sun-cupped snow to Donahue the next morning,
there
> was a swarm of black winged butterflies. It started to sleet a little,
and
> thousands of them ended up covering the snow. Beautiful, and kind of
sad,
> all at the same time. I was SOO happy to make it back down to the snow
free
> and relative warmth of Lyell canyon, only to be rudely asked for my
permit
> by a gun-toting ranger on horse-back. And his horse was causing major 
> damage to the soaking wet trails.
> 
> Welcome to Yosemite.
> The least friendly National Park in my experience
> 
> _______________________________________________
> pct-l mailing list
> pct-l@mailman.backcountry.net
> unsubscribe or change options: 
> http://mailman.hack.net/mailman/listinfo/pct-l


------------------------------

Message: 4
Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2004 11:41:39 -0800
From: "Bob Bankhead" <wandering_bob@comcast.net>
Subject: [pct-l] Re: Early season Streams Techniques and problem
	creeks
To: "Robert Ellinwood" <rellinwood@worldnet.att.net>,	"PCT List Forum"
	<pct-l@mailman.backcountry.net>
Message-ID: <006c01c3d61f$6f5f1b60$6401a8c0@BOB>
Content-Type: text/plain;	charset="iso-8859-1"

Wise man say: "Never burn your bridges."

One NEVER jumps on a snow bridge unless one enjoys collapsing it under them.
This can really upset your partners behind (or in front of) you who now have
to pull you out AND find another way over (and maybe back). They might just
leave you down there to contemplate the wisdom of your actions. Worse yet,
you could be alone when you did it. Cross slowly  and step gently - don't
run or do anything to set up harmonic vibrations in the bridge.

Will it hold you? There's no way to tell but to try it. Rope up first -
either to your partner(s) or to a solid anchor -  unless you know for sure
what's under that bridge.

Wandering Bob


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Robert Ellinwood" <rellinwood@worldnet.att.net>
To: "'Hiker'" <hiker@godlikebuthumble.com>; <pct-l@mailman.backcountry.net>
Sent: Thursday, January 08, 2004 11:25 AM
Subject: RE: [pct-l] Re: Early season Streams Techniques and problem creeks

I've always been leery (read: chicken) about snow bridges, preferring to
wade.   Anyone ever fallen through on one?  Are there specific
techniques for "judging" a snow bridge from those who have crossed a number
of them?  How do you know it will hold you?  I assume one jumps over the
center part??

 Bob (BobnShell)



------------------------------

Message: 5
Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2004 14:54:17 EST
From: CMountainDave@aol.com
Subject: Re: [pct-l] Re: Early season Streams Techniques and problem
	creeks
To: pct-l@mailman.backcountry.net
Message-ID: <1cf.177844d5.2d2f0f69@aol.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"


In a message dated 1/8/04 11:26:01 AM, rellinwood@worldnet.att.net writes:

<<  Anyone ever fallen through on one?  Are there specific techniques for
"judging" a snow bridge from those who have crossed a number of them?  How
do you know it will hold you?  I assume one jumps over the center part??  >>

You let the biggest guy go first! If he falls through, you wade. If not, it 
is probably safe for you. Sorry about that if you ARE the biggest guy
  Other than that, poke your ice ax or a branch into the snow in front of
you 
as you cross. If it breaks through, watch out.  Or pick up a big soccerball 
sized rock and toss it on to the snow bridge to see what happens

------------------------------

Message: 6
Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2004 11:56:08 -0800
From: "Brian Bowlsby" <go4ahike@verizon.net>
Subject: RE: [pct-l] Re: Early season Streams Techniques and problem
	creeks
To: "'Bob Bankhead'" <wandering_bob@comcast.net>,	"'Robert Ellinwood'"
	<rellinwood@worldnet.att.net>,	"'PCT List Forum'"
	<pct-l@mailman.backcountry.net>
Message-ID: <A00B28CCEC72D711A4A80003470C5EBF11B570@pdx-mail>
Content-Type: text/plain;	charset="US-ASCII"

Also, to add to what Bob said, it helps to probe the snow ahead of you with
a trekking pole or stick to "feel" if the snow is solid or not. If the pole
pokes through the snow, then don't go any farther or else you will also be
going through the snow! Even better, if you can see the snowbridge from the
side before you cross, you can get a visual of how thick the bridge is at
the apex. Any less than a foot thick and I wouldn't chance it!

Brian


-----Original Message-----
From: pct-l-bounces@mailman.backcountry.net
[mailto:pct-l-bounces@mailman.backcountry.net] On Behalf Of Bob Bankhead
Sent: Thursday, January 08, 2004 11:42 AM
To: Robert Ellinwood; PCT List Forum
Subject: [pct-l] Re: Early season Streams Techniques and problem creeks


Wise man say: "Never burn your bridges."

One NEVER jumps on a snow bridge unless one enjoys collapsing it under them.
This can really upset your partners behind (or in front of) you who now have
to pull you out AND find another way over (and maybe back). They might just
leave you down there to contemplate the wisdom of your actions. Worse yet,
you could be alone when you did it. Cross slowly and step gently - don't run
or do anything to set up harmonic vibrations in the bridge.

Will it hold you? There's no way to tell but to try it. Rope up first -
either to your partner(s) or to a solid anchor -  unless you know for sure
what's under that bridge.

Wandering Bob


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Robert Ellinwood" <rellinwood@worldnet.att.net>
To: "'Hiker'" <hiker@godlikebuthumble.com>; <pct-l@mailman.backcountry.net>
Sent: Thursday, January 08, 2004 11:25 AM
Subject: RE: [pct-l] Re: Early season Streams Techniques and problem creeks

I've always been leery (read: chicken) about snow bridges, preferring to
wade.   Anyone ever fallen through on one?  Are there specific
techniques for "judging" a snow bridge from those who have crossed a number
of them?  How do you know it will hold you?  I assume one jumps over the
center part??

 Bob (BobnShell)


_______________________________________________
pct-l mailing list
pct-l@mailman.backcountry.net
unsubscribe or change options:
http://mailman.hack.net/mailman/listinfo/pct-l


------------------------------

Message: 7
Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2004 11:55:04 -0800 
From: "Plotnikoff, David" <DPlotnikoff@mercurynews.com>
Subject: [pct-l] historic weather data for California
To: "'oz4130@yahoo.com'" <oz4130@yahoo.com>
Cc: "'pct-l@mailman.backcountry.net'" <pct-l@mailman.backcountry.net>
Message-ID:
	<C742294845ABD41190920008C7A4CFB00DAF1DFD@email1.mercurynews.com>
Content-Type: text/plain

>From: scott deputy <oz4130@yahoo.com>
>Subject: [pct-l] weather log
>To: pct-l@mailman.backcountry.net
>Message-ID: <20040108031249.33624.qmail@web60502.mail.yahoo.com>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>
>
>This topic may have floated around some time ago but I was unable to 
>find
it.  Does   anyone >know of an online journal that documents daily weather
conditions on a thruhike.  I'm   mainly >interested in high and low
temperatures,  I'm trying to figure out how few clothes I will need to
>carry starting at Campo and what might need to be changed when I enter 
>the
Sierra.        I'm >planning on starting around the middle of April. 




Scott, the CA Dept. of Water Resources has all its snow and river monitors,
plus other weather stations, networked on the Web. It's very simple to look
at a station near or on the trail and examine the historic highs, lows,
rain, snow for any month in any year going back sometimes to the 50s. The
form online isn't perfectly intuitive.You'll have to play with it.
Essentially, you give it a date range, a sensor number and the type of data
you want and it plots it graphically. This has been VERY helpful to me in
planning for typical nighttime low temps, knowing when a section of trail
might be reasonably clear of snow, what the chance of rain is on a certain
section during a certain week or month of the year, etc ... And, as everyone
else here has already emphasized: Every year is different. Historic
performance is no indicator of future conditions. But you knew that. 

http://cdec.water.ca.gov/




David Plotnikoff
San Jose Mercury News
(408) 920-5867
dplotnikoff@mercurynews.com


------------------------------

Message: 8
Date: Thu, 08 Jan 2004 11:50:55 -0800
From: Hiker <hiker@godlikebuthumble.com>
Subject: RE: [pct-l] Re: Early season Streams Techniques and problem
	creeks
To: <pct-l@mailman.backcountry.net>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20040108114806.042e7ac0@fastpack.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed

At 11:25 AM 1/8/04, Robert Ellinwood wrote:
>Hiker writes:  "I crossed it on a snow bridge."
>
>I've always been leery (read: chicken) about snow bridges, preferring to
>wade.   Anyone ever fallen through on one?

Actually where I crossed, you could only tell where the creek was because 
there was a depression in the snow field, and you could hear the creek 
underneath. There was no liquid water in sight anywhere around.

The snow must have been several feet thick in that area, but I still didn't 
feel to comfortable hearing the water roaring under foot......



------------------------------

Message: 9
Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2004 13:28:32 -0800 (PST)
From: The Mountain Goat <themtgoat@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [pct-l] 5 gal buckets bounce box /What can you mail USPS
To: pct mailing list <pct-l@mailman.backcountry.net>
Message-ID: <20040108212832.21264.qmail@web40909.mail.yahoo.com>
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This is probably the funniest page (to me) that I have read in some time...
-Mt Goat-

Edmond Meinfelder <edmond@mydogmeg.net> wrote:
At The post office has wider latitude on unusually shaped objects than you 
might think. The following link shows an interesting experiment into just 
how tolerant the post office is:

http://www.improb.com/airchives/paperair/volume6/v6i4/postal-6-4.html

Apparently, the Post Office will not ship helium balloons, but will ship a 
properly labelled can of split pea soup.


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Subject: Re: [pct-l] 5 gal buckets bounce box /What can you mail USPS
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This is probably the funniest page (to me) that I have read in some time...
-Mt Goat-

Edmond Meinfelder <edmond@mydogmeg.net> wrote:
At The post office has wider latitude on unusually shaped objects than you 
might think. The following link shows an interesting experiment into just 
how tolerant the post office is:

http://www.improb.com/airchives/paperair/volume6/v6i4/postal-6-4.html

Apparently, the Post Office will not ship helium balloons, but will ship a 
properly labelled can of split pea soup.



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weathercarrot@hotmail.com  Thu Jan  8 16:04:33 2004
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<< This topic may have floated around some time ago but I was unable to find

it.  Does anyone know of an online journal that documents daily weather 
conditions on a thruhike.  I'm mainly interested in high and low 
temperatures,  I'm trying to figure out how few clothes I will need to carry

starting at Campo and what might need to be changed when I enter the Sierra.

  I'm planning on starting around the middle of April.  >>

As has already mention mentioned, the southern CA region has a tremendous 
amount of temperature diversity in April, May, and even June. In the same 
given spot as low as 2,500 feet (such as in May of '95 and '98) you can have

below freezing with snow falling, and then well over 100 degrees on the same

date a year later, or a few days later in the same year.  I would carry 
enough for full winter conditions, but expect the heat of summer with hours 
at a time of direct sunlight more often, especially below the forest zones 
(which  start at an average elevation of 5,000 feet, with variations). Above

that, extreme heat becomes uncommon and canopy gives you frequent breaks 
from the sunshine. In most years, when you drop into the Agua Dulce region 
it's getting later in the spring/early summer,  and you generally have a 
break from the potential cold snaps until after the Walker Pass area 
(approaching the Kennedy meadows region). Once you hit the high Sierra, your

temp range in June will be similar to that of a cold spell in late April/May

in the southern CA mtns, so your gear is about the same. Typically 60's and 
70's during the day with 20's at night. Once you get past the 
Yosemite/Sonora Pass region and into July, below freezing nights become very

infrequent, although be prepared for it anyway. I found that in Oregon in 
August, we were getting frosts or freezes about every 7-10 mornings. By 
September in Washington, assume atleast some snow with the temps 
occasionally in the 20's or lower, especially toward the second half of the 
month. But it's different every year. In September, '98 I never experienced 
32 degrees or lower in Washington, and no snow. It was sunny and in the 60's

and 70's almost everyday. In 2000 the story was completely different. So in 
conclusion, my clothing gear didn't change all that much from beginning to 
end.

wc

_________________________________________________________________



------------------------------

Message: 10
Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2004 17:38:55 EST
From: CMountainDave@aol.com
Subject: Re: [pct-l] weather log
To: pct-l@mailman.backcountry.net
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In a message dated 1/8/04 2:04:39 PM, weathercarrot@hotmail.com writes:

<< So in 
conclusion, my clothing gear didn't change all that much from beginning to 
end. >>

Same here

------------------------------

Message: 11
Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2004 18:14:33 -0500 (EST)
From: "dude" <dude@fastmail.ca>
Subject: Re: [pct-l] weather log
To: pct-l@mailman.backcountry.net
Message-ID: <3FFDE459.00015F.34587@ns.interchange.ca>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

this may have already been mentioned, if so I apologize, but you can 
get historical weather info for most cities or zip codes in the US 
from:
http://www.wunderground.com



> << This topic may have floated around some time ago but I was unable 
> to find it.  Does anyone know of an online journal that documents 
> daily weather conditions on a thruhike.  I'm mainly interested in high 
> and low temperatures,  I'm trying to figure out how few clothes I will 
> need to carry starting at Campo and what might need to be changed when 
> I enter the Sierra. I'm planning on starting around the middle of 
> April.  >>
> 
> As has already mention mentioned, the southern CA region has a 
> tremendous amount of temperature diversity in April, May, and even 
> June. In the same given spot as low as 2,500 feet (such as in May of 
> '95 and '98) you can have below freezing with snow falling, and then 
> well over 100 degrees on the same date a year later, or a few days 
> later in the same year.  I would carry enough for full winter 
> conditions, but expect the heat of summer with hours at a time of 
> direct sunlight more often, especially below the forest zones (which  
> start at an average elevation of 5,000 feet, with variations). Above 
> that, extreme heat becomes uncommon and canopy gives you frequent 
> breaks from the sunshine. In most years, when you drop into the Agua 
> Dulce region it's getting later in the spring/early summer,  and you 
> generally have a break from the potential cold snaps until after the 
> Walker Pass area (approaching the Kennedy meadows region). Once you 
> hit the high Sierra, your temp range in June will be similar to that 
> of a cold spell in late April/May in the southern CA mtns, so your 
> gear is about the same. Typically 60's and 70's during the day with 
> 20's at night. Once you get past the Yosemite/Sonora Pass region and 
> into July, below freezing nights become very infrequent, although be 
> prepared for it anyway. I found that in Oregon in August, we were 
> getting frosts or freezes about every 7-10 mornings. By September in
> Washington, assume atleast some snow with the temps occasionally
> in the 20's or lower, especially toward the second half of the
> month. But it's different every year. In September, '98 I never
> experienced 32 degrees or lower in Washington, and no snow. It was
> sunny and in the 60's and 70's almost everyday. In 2000 the story
> was completely different. So in conclusion, my clothing gear
> didn't change all that much from beginning to end.
> 
> wc
> 
> _________________________________________________________________
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> pct-l mailing list
> pct-l@mailman.backcountry.net
> unsubscribe or change options: 
> http://mailman.hack.net/mailman/listinfo/pct-l

_________________________________________________________________
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------------------------------

Message: 12
Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2004 15:25:06 -0800
From: "JoAnn M. Michael" <jomike47@earthlink.net>
Subject: [pct-l] need some help
To: <pct-l@mailman.backcountry.net>
Message-ID: <001501c3d63e$a7a91ba0$9828a5d1@yourxhtr8hvc4p>
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Okay guys...just what is a triptease rope??

JoAnnFrom go4ahike@verizon.net  Thu Jan  8 17:34:41 2004
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Triptease rope is made by Kelty for tent guylines, and has a reflective
material woven into it so you can see it at night. For more info, check the
link below...


http://www.kelty.com/Kelty/index.cfm?fuseaction=Tents.ShowProduct&type=a
ccessories&ID=5



-----Original Message-----
From: pct-l-bounces@mailman.backcountry.net
[mailto:pct-l-bounces@mailman.backcountry.net] On Behalf Of JoAnn M. Michael
Sent: Thursday, January 08, 2004 3:25 PM
To: pct-l@mailman.backcountry.net
Subject: [pct-l] need some help


Okay guys...just what is a triptease rope??

JoAnn
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pct-l@mailman.backcountry.net
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------------------------------

Message: 13
Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2004 17:26:36 -0800
From: "Joanne Lennox" <goforth@cio.net>
Subject: Re: [pct-l] Convenced,,,,!
To: "Norma" <n.ruiz@verizon.net>, <pct-l@mailman.backcountry.net>
Message-ID: <200401090001.i0901Kch011750@cnwmail.isomedia.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1



----------
> From: Norma <n.ruiz@verizon.net>
> To: pct-l@mailman.backcountry.net
> Subject: [pct-l] Convenced,,,,!
> Date: Saturday, January 03, 2004 10:22 AM
> 
> I am totally convenced that a cart is out of the question and
dangerious,I am convenced that a string of pack annimals are the only way to
go,and several wrote and informed me so,I am convenced that a over weight
handycaped person,can do this with no problems,providing I take enough
food,I have convenced,my son to do this first trip with me,from the Columbia
River to whites pass in May,that will be the drop of & pick up area,does any
body have an idea just how far and how long it will take,remembering that
this is going to ba a big hike and camp out,first trip,,,,! to take all the
bugs out,and to see just how the annimals will work,mainly to get the do,s
and dont,s out,,,at this time I would like to thank Carol,Morion & husband,&
Mr, Bankhead,you all been a great deal of
help,and you all put me on the right path,,,thanks   Howard L Ruiz
>

This is such a crazy idea that I hesitated to respond to it; it indicates
that you need to do a LOT more reading and planning with maps and guidebooks
in hand and then do a single overnight on the PCT.  After that do a two day
stretch on the PCT with horses; when you make it up to a week stretch on the
PCT in MAY returning with horses that are not hungry or injured, you might
consider doing the Goat Rocks in August or September in a good low snow
year.

Wondered if this wasn't just a flamer, so I will not respond hereafter.

Joanne

------------------------------

Message: 14
Date: Thu, 08 Jan 2004 19:09:58 -0500
From: "The Weathercarrot" <weathercarrot@hotmail.com>
Subject: [pct-l] weather log
To: dude@fastmail.ca, pct-l@mailman.backcountry.net
Message-ID: <BAY2-F66UhhlzuYl0gH000101e4@hotmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed

Among others, the Western Regional Climate Center has some of the most 
extensive historical temp and precip data. A surprisingly large percentage 
of trail towns are represented there, as well as many of the major developed

passes (such as Stevens Pass).

Southern California: http://www.wrcc.dri.edu/summary/climsmsca.html

Northern California: http://www.wrcc.dri.edu/summary/climsmnca.html

Oregon:
http://www.wrcc.dri.edu/summary/climsmor.html

Washington:
http://www.wrcc.dri.edu/summary/climsmwa.html


<< this may have already been mentioned, if so I apologize, but you can get
historical weather info for most cities or zip codes in the US
from: http://www.wunderground.com >>

_________________________________________________________________
Take advantage of our limited-time introductory offer for dial-up Internet 
access. http://join.msn.com/?page=dept/dialup


------------------------------

Message: 15
Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2004 16:39:29 -0800 (PST)
From: robert vance <hikerrobbie@yahoo.com>
Subject: RE: [pct-l] northern cascades
To: pct-l@mailman.backcountry.net
Message-ID: <20040109003929.21138.qmail@web20725.mail.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii



Gray <gray_hiker@mindpoison.org> wrote:
I've only been in that area on one hike, but I've looked at the surrounding
topos a lot... *are* there any roads that an alternate route could take?

To the best of my memory, there really are no roads on the east side of
Glacier, until well past Lake Chelan. And to the west, it would be a hell of
a hike along the Suiattle River, and then down a long access road, to get to
any road that could be a detour.

I don't doubt at all that the detours will be long and strenuous, but I
highly doubt there will be any road walking... unless, of course, the damage
is so great that it requires a detour of 20 miles or more.


the damage is that great.the main sticking point seems to be south of the
suiattle river. to get around that would require on the east side, a detour
over buck creek pass down to the trailhead at trinity, then a road walk to
the napeequa valley trail and from there having to cross the chiwawa river
and(i belive) the napeequa too,very unlikely in early season snow melt. the
only other alternative i see is a long road walk down the suiattle river
road over to darrington then heading down the mountain loop hwy to catch
back up with the p.c.t. at the north fork sauk rd trailhead.


Ps: Has anyone on this list taken a side-route over to Image Lake from the
PCT on a thru-hike? How many miles and elevation gain does it add? Worth it?
well worth it! if memory serves me i think it`s about 2 miles and 1000 ft
elevation gain from miners ridge.massive flower gardens  and a jaw dropping
look at glaicier peak has made this a northwest favorite for decades.also
there is a lookout tower  that welcomes visitors.one of my all time favorite
places not only in the cascades but anywhere.rob





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Subject: Re: [pct-l] Re: Early season Streams Techniques and problem creeks
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In a message dated 1/8/2004 11:26:01 AM Pacific Standard Time, 
rellinwood@worldnet.att.net writes:
>>>>>Are there specific techniques for "judging" a snow bridge from 
>>>>>those
who 
have crossed a number of them?  How do you know it will hold you?<<<<<<

Try to go in a group and get the heaviest person to cross first.  If he
makes 
it, chances are you might too.  <G>

On a more serious side, they merit care.  While not a snow bridge, I had an 
experience in Boy Scout Canyon, up the front of Whitney.  The canyon was
filled 
with snow and I was walking close to a rock wall.  The snow gave way and 
below me, I could see at least 15' down to the ground.  Fortunately I didn't
go in.


No Way
Ray Echols

------------------------------

Message: 16
Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2004 17:58:57 -0800
From: "Judson Brown" <judsonb@internetcds.com>
Subject: [pct-l] new section K?
To: "pctl (E-mail)" <pct-l@mailman.backcountry.net>
Message-ID: <000501c3d654$24c84f10$365af142@pounder>
Content-Type: text/plain;	charset="iso-8859-1"

I read and heard it mentioned that WA's section K past Glacier Peak was the
hardest thing on the PCT N of the Sierra, though I never had the pleasure to
experience it. If/when the trail is rerouted to the side of the mtn., what
will that due to the difficulty and length of this section?

Judson
Ashland



------------------------------

Message: 17
Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2004 21:36:27 -0800 (PST)
From: robert vance <hikerrobbie@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [pct-l] new section K?
To: pct-l@mailman.backcountry.net
Message-ID: <20040109053627.8857.qmail@web20725.mail.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii


I read and heard it mentio
ned that WA's section K past Glacier Peak was the
hardest thing on the PCT N of the Sierra, though I never had the pleasure to
experience it. If/when the trail is rerouted to the side of the mtn., what
will that due to the difficulty and length of this section?

a lot of people have suggested that the p.c.t. be rerouted to the east of
glaicer peak,i can't see any advantage  to  that. on the west side the
problems are the bridges across milk creek and the suiattle river which wash
out every few years,on the east side you have the napeequa and chiwawa
rivers whose bridges washed out years ago and have never been replaced,for
the same reason as the west side bridges.it seems like six of one or a half
dozen of the other.


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From: robert vance <hikerrobbie@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [pct-l] Surface of Mars...
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 While I agree that Bush's 
environmental policies suck, I don't think laying every environmental 
problem or catastrophe at his feet is fair or even intelligent. 

hey i belive in giving credit where credit due,give bush props ,he`s managed
to outdo reagan in his antieviormental stance,he`s never found a
enviromental regulation he can`t roll back. and this is just the start, if
he`s reelected watch how he's going to punish the northwest(and p.c.t.)with
his"healthy forests" plan.youd better hike the deserts of southern
california soon too,another term  and those protections are gone too.



---------------------------------
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edmond@mydogmeg.net  Fri Jan  9 00:47:31 2004
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At 03:25 PM 1/8/2004 -0800, JoAnn M. Michael wrote:
>Okay guys...just what is a triptease rope??


It's highly reflective 3M Scotchlite fiber for visibility wrapped around a 
spectra core for strength made by Kelty.

If you go to the Kick Off and accidently set up your tarp or tent near 
ground zero (close to the fire), you'll be happy you have it. else you'll 
listen to people trip over your guy lines all night.

It's great stuff.

Tangent 


------------------------------

Message: 18
Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2004 02:15:34 EST
From: CMountainDave@aol.com
Subject: Re: [pct-l] new section K?
To: pct-l@mailman.backcountry.net
Message-ID: <1dc.181db714.2d2faf16@aol.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"


In a message dated 1/8/04 5:58:35 PM, judsonb@internetcds.com writes:

<< I read and heard it mentioned that WA's section K past Glacier Peak was
the

hardest thing on the PCT N of the Sierra,  >>

Not quite right. It IS the hardest section on the PCT. Would be MUCH easier 
to just go up and over the dang thing, except for all the crevasses.

------------------------------

Message: 19
Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2004 10:30:15 EST
From: Lonetrail@aol.com
Subject: [pct-l] Mountain Lion
To: pct-l@mailman.backcountry.net
Message-ID: <ca.2685efa4.2d302307@aol.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"

In an area called Whiting Wilderness Ranch a mountain lion perhaps killed
one 
person and seriously mauled another. Whiting Wilderness Ranch is 
approximately 1500 acres nestled between several densely populated towns in
Orange County, 
CA. Yet it is a designated wilderness

The injured person was mountain biking with a group when the lion attacked 
her. If it wasn't for her friend who stopped the lion from dragging her off
by 
pulling on her feet.
A few other bikers came by and drove the lion off. It was not until when 
medic was removing the victim that they notice a second victim who was half
buried 
along the trail. This person a male was killed or died sometimes earlier. It

has been assume that the loin was protecting his/her kill The suspected lion

was killed last night. If this lion was a celebrity (making money) like 
Seigfried and Roy's Lion it would never have been killed. I believe this is
the third 
mountain lion shot within the last year by park police in this area. Bikers,

hikers, horse back riding and women pushing baby carriages are allowed in
the 
park, but no dogs. The  environmentalist feel the dogs will scare of the 
bears,lions, etc

I saw a mountain lion several years ago in Whiting Ranch. The lion paid no 
attention to me. It was busy trying to catch some birds. I guest this was
then 
his/her food chain. Evidently the food chain moved up to humans. I reported 
this sighting to the ranger station.  I got no responce from the ranger

I again question why this area was designated a wilderness. 1500 acres 
surround by highway and millions of people. How can large wildlife exist
here 
without incidents as occurred last night? Oh! I know it makes the present
day 
environmentalist feel so good to have a designated wilderness in their back
yard. 
This was the trend several decades ago by local chapters of the Sierra Club.
At 
the same time the same environmentalist (Sierra Club) voted for mass 
inmagration which resulted in building more homes yes cutting down more
trees. Oh! Yes, 
their cry save the forest, save the amimals, save the air and streams but 
people votes trees don't, aminals don't and that's more inportant you see
the 
Sierra Club became so attached to the Denoctrtic party they could not see
the 
forest  because of the votes.

lonetrail





------------------------------

Message: 20
Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2004 12:23:57 EST
From: Bighummel@aol.com
Subject: [pct-l] Also in the news from Orange County
To: pct-l@mailman.backcountry.net
Message-ID: <c.1fcf464e.2d303dad@aol.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"

HORSE OWNERS FACE HEFTY MANURE FINES

NEWPORT BEACH - The city's canine scooper law has become a bur under the 
saddle for horse owners, who are facing $100 to $500 fines if they don't
clean up 
after horses on Santa Ana Heights bridle trails.
   Horse owners claim their animals are leaving only harmless manure in
their 
wake, but residents along the miles of meandering bridle trails said the 
neighborhood is being marred by the stench.  
   New signs posted on the trails warn of $100 to $500 fines for owners
whose 
horses leave a mess.  Additionally, several houses along sidewalks and
trails 
have added shovels with cans.
   "It's just a good-neighbor issue.  The bottom line is: If you've got an 
animal, take care of it." said Barbara Venezia, organizer of the campaign.
   Horse owners said they don't mind taking care of their animals, but some 
resent a city ordinance that treats them exactly as it does dog owners who 
don't clean up after their pets.


Hmmm, better hope that the Forsest Service and Park Service don't catch on
to 
this!

------------------------------

Message: 21
Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2004 13:23:38 EST
From: CMountainDave@aol.com
Subject: Re: [pct-l] Also in the news from Orange County
To: pct-l@mailman.backcountry.net
Message-ID: <1c7.13d698a8.2d304baa@aol.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"


In a message dated 1/9/04 9:24:50 AM, Bighummel@aol.com writes:

<< NEWPORT BEACH - The city's canine scooper law has become a bur under the 
saddle for horse owners, who are facing $100 to $500 fines if they don't 
clean up 
after horses on Santa Ana Heights bridle trails.
   Horse owners claim their animals are leaving only harmless manure in
their 
wake, but residents along the miles of meandering bridle trails said the 
neighborhood is being marred by the stench.  
   New signs posted on the trails warn of $100 to $500 fines for owners
whose 
horses leave a mess.  Additionally, several houses along sidewalks and
trails 
have added shovels with cans. >>

 They are looking at it the wrong way. They should be encouraging horse
poop. 
The county could gather up all that free manure and sell it as upscale 
fertilizer to be used by the landscapers for those whining about it. These
are 
bridle paths used only by horses, right? It's not like hikers have to wade
through 
it. If you fine them, they will probably comply and all that potential
revenue 
from horse poop will be flushed down the toilet!

------------------------------

Message: 22
Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2004 14:19:30 EST
From: Slyatpct@aol.com
Subject: [pct-l] Deer question?
To: pct-l@backcountry.net
Message-ID: <dd.fdf905.2d3058c2@aol.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"

Hey,

I think I heard someone say that deer kill more people than mountain lion, 
can anyone verify this?

Thanks.

------------------------------

Message: 23
Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2004 12:38:28 -0700
From: Edmond Meinfelder <edmond@mydogmeg.net>
Subject: Re: [pct-l] Deer question?
To: pct-l@backcountry.net
Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20040109123520.017d3af0@mail.mydogmeg.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed

I did. I got the information from 
http://www.cnn.com/2002/TECH/science/09/25/coolsc.critters.attacks/

It's a short piece and gives Herrero a mention. Regrettably there are no 
references citing from where the information comes.

Tangent

At 02:19 PM 1/9/2004 -0500, Slyatpct@aol.com wrote:
>I think I heard someone say that deer kill more people than mountain 
>lion, can anyone verify this?


------------------------------

Message: 24
Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2004 16:41:09 -0500 (EST)
From: "DANIEL ALAN ERDMAN" <dae151@psu.edu>
Subject: Re: [pct-l] Gear Test Notifications - Tabulations to date
To: Slyatpct@aol.com
Cc: pct-l@mailman.backcountry.net, andrew@aushiker.com
Message-ID: <200401092141.QAA20320@webmail5.cac.psu.edu>
Content-Type: text/plain

Enough with stating andrew priest's posting would be non pct related.
nothing could be further from the truth.  Gear has been the most discussed
topic on this list.  

On Wed, 31 Dec 2003 22:47:03, Slyatpct@aol.com wrote:

> In a message dated 12/31/2003 10:28:12 PM Eastern Standard Time,
> andrew@aushiker.com writes:

> 
> Andrew, there's nothing to stop you from posting to the list on with 
> an
pct 
> related subject.  Your signiture has many interesting urls and would 
> be a
> reminder. 
> 
> In order to put this in perspective, how would you feel about someone
posting 
> to the BGT about carrying bear cannisters through the High Sierra or a
> resupply on the CDT?  It doesn't really fit your list main function.
> 
> Best of luck,
> 
> Sly
> _______________________________________________
> pct-l mailing list
> pct-l@mailman.backcountry.net
> unsubscribe or change options: 
> http://mailman.hack.net/mailman/listinfo/pct-l
> 
> 



------------------------------

Message: 25
Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2004 16:51:55 EST
From: Slyatpct@aol.com
Subject: Re: [pct-l] Gear Test Notifications - Tabulations to date
To: dae151@psu.edu
Cc: pct-l@mailman.backcountry.net
Message-ID: <1dc.18279e7c.2d307c7b@aol.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"

In a message dated 1/9/2004 4:41:49 PM Eastern Standard Time, dae151@psu.edu

writes:

> Enough with stating andrew priest's posting would be non pct related.
> nothing
> could be further from the truth.  Gear has been the most discussed topic
on
> this list.
> 

Back off, I wasn't the only one that felt it was unwarranted to post
results. 
 

I tried to put it in perspective, saying that PCT related subjects aren't 
part of their list, why should his be part of this one?  It's easy enough to
join 
BGT if you want the info specifically.

 

------------------------------

Message: 26
Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2004 14:16:42 -0800
From: "Beth Murdock" <dorothea@onemain.com>
Subject: [pct-l] Ice axe size
To: "Pct-L@Mailman. Backcountry. Net" <pct-l@mailman.backcountry.net>
Message-ID: <LOBBKEGLCAKDFHIMJHOCGECNFNAA.dorothea@onemain.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;	charset="iso-8859-1"

I'm thinking about getting a lightweight ice axe, for next year's PCT hike,
but am wondering what size to get.  According to the instructions I've seen,
I should get a 70 inch, but at web sites that sell ice axes there seems to
be an implied preference for a shorter axe for PCT hikers.

What's your advice?

Thanks,
Beth, in Portland OR, where we are finally thawing out

------------------------------

Message: 27
Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2004 14:26:37 -0800 (PST)
From: Ilja Friedel <ilja@cs.caltech.edu>
Subject: Re: [pct-l] Deer question?
To: pct-l@backcountry.net
Message-ID:
	
<Pine.LNX.4.44.0401091420500.12444-100000@performance.cs.caltech.edu>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

Hi Slyatpct,

No deers, but lions from the rec.backcountry FAQ:
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=eugene+miya+distilled+wisdom+16/28&hl=en&l
r=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&scoring=d&selm=3fdf06ce%241%40darkstar&rnum=1

> Cause   Deaths/year
> 
> Bees       40 
> Lightning  12
> Mtn Lions   0.11

Lets kill all those lions, to make LA a safer place.

Ilja.


------------------------------

Message: 28
Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2004 17:53:39 EST
From: CMountainDave@aol.com
Subject: Re: [pct-l] Ice axe size
To: pct-l@mailman.backcountry.net
Message-ID: <102.3c5f0135.2d308af3@aol.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"


In a message dated 1/9/04 2:11:34 PM, dorothea@onemain.com writes:

<< According to the instructions I?EUR(tm)ve seen,

I should get a 70 inch,  >>

Sounds good to me if you are between 5' to 5' 4'' tall. If you want light 
weight, get a titanium one. This subject has been discussed at length (no
pun 
intended) so you might want to try the archives. To put it succinctly, the
main 
function of an ice ax is as a balance tool since it is rarely used for self 
arrest (which is only ONE of its functions). A short ice ax is pretty
useless as 
a balance tool
   I went to a Mountaineers meeting last night and someone had an ice ax
that 
once belonged to Jim Whittaker. It was about 3 feet long. And consider the 
pre ice ax snow tool, the alpenstock. It wasn't exactly short --- more like
6 
feet long. Hmm, I wonder why? Could it be it was used for balance too by any

chance? The ice ax replaced it because it was more functional, not because 
alpenstocks were too long

------------------------------

Message: 29
Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2004 14:59:22 -0800
From: "Marshall Karon" <m.karon@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: [pct-l] Ice axe size
To: "Beth Murdock" <dorothea@onemain.com>,	"Pct-L@Mailman.
	Backcountry. Net" <pct-l@mailman.backcountry.net>
Message-ID: <001301c3d704$3903d7a0$6401a8c0@YOUR357898FF1F>
Content-Type: text/plain;	charset="iso-8859-1"

I finally got to use my ice axe! Never needed on the PCT in 2000, but
getting around my house here in Portland - it saved me. Good for chopping up
this stuff. Lots of opportunity to use it for self arrest (ha! ha! - one
really needed a jack hammer). If we had this stuff on the PCT I wouldn't be
here.

Regarding length: two theories - one is use to use for leverage and as a
walking stick - you need it long; other is for just self arrest and
climbing, shorter will do. What I've been told is that the longer bar gives
you more leverage. Both will work.

We have one that is about 70 cm and another about 73 cm. I used mine in some
streams, but I had to bend over.

Probably you will never need to use one, or if so, only for a very short
distance. That means that you can get by with a shorter axe. Main use is to
stop you from sliding in the first place. So, if you are like me, you will
buy one, carry it, and then use it for the next Portland ice storm. So, that
means it just may not matter.

Marshall Karon
Portland, OR
m.karon@comcast.net
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Beth Murdock" <dorothea@onemain.com>
To: "Pct-L@Mailman. Backcountry. Net" <pct-l@mailman.backcountry.net>
Sent: Friday, January 09, 2004 2:16 PM
Subject: [pct-l] Ice axe size


> I'm thinking about getting a lightweight ice axe, for next year's PCT
hike,
> but am wondering what size to get.  According to the instructions I've
seen,
> I should get a 70 inch, but at web sites that sell ice axes there 
> seems to be an implied preference for a shorter axe for PCT hikers.
>
> What's your advice?
>
> Thanks,
> Beth, in Portland OR, where we are finally thawing out 
> _______________________________________________
> pct-l mailing list
> pct-l@mailman.backcountry.net
> unsubscribe or change options: 
> http://mailman.hack.net/mailman/listinfo/pct-l


------------------------------

Message: 30
Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2004 15:10:34 -0800 (PST)
From: Gene Neagle <CTWalker@litebackpacker.com>
Subject: [pct-l] Kennedy Meadows Start
To: pct-l@mailman.backcountry.net
Message-ID: <20040109231035.31121395D@sitemail.everyone.net>
Content-Type: text/plain

Due to school scheduling I am going to start my PCT trip at Kennedy Meadows.
As far as I can tell on the Greyhound site I can get to Lone Pine on
Greyhound. I figure if I can get to Inyokern I can hitch to the trail from
there. Does anyone know of a shuttle or local bus service from Lone Pine to
Inyokern? Maybe a trail angel? This would be around June 14-15. Muchos
Gracias hiker dudes and dudettes.

_____________________________________________________________
Get your free @LiteBACKPACKER.COM email 
account at http://www.backpacking.net

------------------------------

Message: 31
Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2004 15:27:20 -0800 (PST)
From: Gene Neagle <CTWalker@litebackpacker.com>
Subject: [pct-l] Ice ax size
To: pct-l@mailman.backcountry.net
Message-ID: <20040109232720.055DF395A@sitemail.everyone.net>
Content-Type: text/plain

It is my understanding that when you hold the head of the ax in your hand
the tip should be about at your ankle. This is what I have heard from a few
climbers and on a couple of forums. I think it is in Mountaineering, Freedom
Of the Hills. I am glad to hear that I am not the only stir crazy maniac
using his ax to chip ice off the steps and sidewalk. I recently bought the
Cassin Ghost, 70 cm , and it surprised me with how well it broke the ice
considering that it is 10 ozs. and all aluminum. I haven't used it in the
real snow yet. Hope this helps. Gene

_____________________________________________________________
Get your free @LiteBACKPACKER.COM email 
account at http://www.backpacking.net

------------------------------

Message: 32
Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2004 18:40:14 EST
From: Slyatpct@aol.com
Subject: Re: [pct-l] Gear Test Notifications - Tabulations to date
To: dae151@psu.edu
Cc: pct-l@mailman.backcountry.net
Message-ID: <1ea.16f39fef.2d3095de@aol.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"

In a message dated 1/9/2004 4:42:19 PM Eastern Standard Time, dae151@psu.edu

writes:

> Enough with stating andrew priest's posting would be non pct related.
> nothing
> could be further from the truth.  Gear has been the most discussed topic
on
> this list.
> 

I could answer both yours and Jerry's private emails personally, but since 
you, who ever you are, choose to select my post to respond to publically,
I'll 
keep the discussion here.

I don't own this list, I'm only a member and I only expressed my opinion.  
It's not my call on whether BGT should be able to post their announcements,
or 
not, it's Ryan's, the list(s) owner.  Why not contact and ask him, instead
of 
pleading your case here.

I can use the delete key if I'm not interested in the 68 tests and $100,000 
worth of gear you have to test, as easily as I can join the BGT or view the 
website.

Sly

------------------------------

Message: 33
Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2004 16:38:10 -0700
From: Ron Martino <yumitori@montana.com>
Subject: Re: [pct-l] Gear Test Notifications - Tabulations to date
Cc: pct-l@mailman.backcountry.net
Message-ID: <3FFF3B62.7050503@montana.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed


>I tried to put it in perspective, saying that PCT related subjects 
>aren't
>part of their list, why should his be part of this one?  It's easy enough
to join 
>BGT if you want the info specifically.


    The BGT list exists for the purpose of managing the testing process. It
isn't the best way to keep track of completed reviews, if that's your only
interest. That's the reason for the once-a-month announcements.

    In a 'vote' reminiscent of the mandate received by George W. Bush, the
members of this list declared their support for keeping the PCT-L pure.
Which apparently means discussing nothing but bear canisters, Bush's
environmental policies, and Mars,  judging by the lack of complaints about
/those/ threads...

-- 

It is our attitude toward free thought and free expression that will 
determine our fate. There must be no limit on the range of temperate 
discussion, no limits on thought. No subject must be taboo. No censor 
must preside at our assemblies.
	William O. Douglas

yumitori(AT)montana(DOT)com




------------------------------

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------------------------------

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