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[pct-l] RE: Mt Whitney Questions

Subject: [pct-l] RE: Mt Whitney Questions
From: m.karon at comcast.net (Marshall Karon)
Date: Wed Jan 21 15:32:55 2004
References: <E01B376C479D2F42867F4C568499A9D8017D63D6@dale.sanjuan.edu>
Regarding altitude sickness - I've had some people tell me that it can be
unpredictable. One time no problem, next time a problem. Something is
probably different: age, acclimation, water consumption, rate of ascent,
etc. I believe it definitely is more prevalent with folks coming directly up
from sea level.

Sleeping at the top: I know some folks have done it. You can find some
places to curl up without a tent. Yes, it will be rock, but it is also rock
at Guitar Lakes (OK, maybe down there you find 2 inches of dirt over the
rock).

Other comments: marmots - they are everywhere from Guitar Lakes up. They
seem to respect zipped up tents. But, don't leave your pack open - they will
go inside. In June, I saw only a few marmots and a couple of hikers at the
top; in August, I saw hundreds of people at the top, some with cell phones.

Enjoy the hike!

Marshall Karon
Portland, OR
m.karon@comcast.net
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "John Coyle" <jcoyle@sanjuan.edu>
To: <pct-l@mailman.backcountry.net>
Sent: Wednesday, January 21, 2004 11:54 AM
Subject: [pct-l] RE: Mt Whitney Questions


>
> Since Mt Whitney is so close to Sequoia National park, does the National
> Park Service have anything to do with administering it, or is that handled
> entirely by the Forest Service?
>
> I notice from this list and other places that people mention camping on
the
> Mt Whitney summit.  Is that legal, and if so, is it advisable due to the
> possibility of lightning strikes?  It seems to me, from the photos I have
> seen, that a person would have to sleep mostly on slabs of hard rock in
any
> case.
>
> My brother in law hiked to the Whitney summit last year and he mentioned
> seeing a number of people obviously affected by altitude sickness.  I have
> recently hiked to the summits of Lassen Peak and Mt Tallac near Lake Tahoe
> with no evidence of altitude sickness.  What is the likeliness of me
getting
> sick on a peak that is so much higher like Mt. Whitney?
>
> "Everything not prohibited is mandatory"
> John Coyle
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: pct-l-request@mailman.backcountry.net
> [mailto:pct-l-request@mailman.backcountry.net]
> Sent: Tuesday, January 20, 2004 2:09 PM
> To: pct-l@mailman.backcountry.net
> Subject: pct-l Digest, Vol 9, Issue 22
>
>
> Send pct-l mailing list submissions to
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>
>
> Today's Topics:
>
>    1. RE: Class of 2004 Gear (scott deputy)
>    2. Keen Sandals (John Vonhof)
>    3. Re: permit paperwork in No. Cal. and Oregon (Ken Powers)
>    4. RE: Sierra East Side Shuttle Service? (David Dalbey)
>    5. Re: permit paperwork in No. Cal. and Oregon (Bighummel@aol.com)
>    6. RE: permit paperwork in No. Cal. and Oregon (Jerry Goller)
>    7. Re: permit paperwork around Lake Tahoe (ECPG)
>    8. Re: permit paperwork around Lake Tahoe (goslowgofar)
>    9. permit paperwork in No. Cal. and Oregon (yogi yogi)
>   10. Re: hostels along the trail  (Marshall Karon)
>   11. Sierra East Side Shuttle Service? (yogi yogi)
>   12. South-bound questions (adrian.borner@ch.abb.com)
>   13. Re: South-bound questions (Ilja Friedel)
>   14. Re: hostels along the trail  (scott deputy)
>   15. Re: South-bound questions (Christopher Willett)
>   16. Re: South-bound questions (CMountainDave@aol.com)
>   17. Re: South-bound questions (Slyatpct@aol.com)
>   18. Re: South-bound questions (Bob Bankhead)
>   19. RE: South-bound questions (Marge Prothman)
>   20. Re: South-bound questions (Bob Bankhead)
>   21. Re: South-bound questions (Slyatpct@aol.com)
>   22. Re: South-bound questions (CMountainDave@aol.com)
>   23. Re: Sierra East Side Shuttle Service? (Joanne Lennox)
>   24. Re: stove (ROYROBIN@aol.com)
>   25. Re: Class of 2004 Gear (ROYROBIN@aol.com)
>   26. Re: South-bound questions (Joanne Lennox)
>   27. Re: South-bound questions (Joanne Lennox)
>   28. Re: South-bound questions (Slyatpct@aol.com)
>   29. Major Wanderlust happening here! (Joanne Lennox)
>   30. Re: Major Wanderlust happening here! (Jeffrey J. Olson)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2004 16:56:49 -0800 (PST)
> From: scott deputy <oz4130@yahoo.com>
> Subject: RE: [pct-l] Class of 2004 Gear
> To: pct-l@mailman.backcountry.net
> Message-ID: <20040120005649.86864.qmail@web60507.mail.yahoo.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>
>
>
>
> Another option is reflective twist ties, they used to be available at
> hunting oriented outdoor shops but I haven't looked for any lately.
>
> They are the same twist ties that come with trash bags but have a
reflective
> coating that shines like triptease in a headlamp,  they are easy to attach
> to ten stakes or guylines.
>
>
>
> Just put a small piece of reflective tape around/on your gear. Then put
> some
> clear packing tape on top of the reflective tape to make it more durable
>
> (reduce cracking, etc.). Go to the Walmart auto section to buy the red
> reflective
> tape. It also come in white reflective tape, but I like the red better.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the "Signing Bonus" SweepstakesFrom
> jmaterick@hotmail.com  Mon Jan 19 18:56:25 2004
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> From: "J. Bradley Materick" <jbmaterick@stanfordalumni.org>
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> Subject: [pct-l] Sierra East Side Shuttle Service?
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>
> Hello all,
>
> Recently, on a drive up I-395, I saw a sign for a shuttle service on the =
> East Side of the Sierra, but now I can't quite recall the name, nor can =
> I find it on the internet...
>
> Does anyone happen to know how to contact this shuttle service?
>
> Thank you!
> J. Bradley
>
> --------------------------------
> J. Bradley Materick
> jbmaterick@stanfordalumni.org
>
> Field Naturalist Program
> Department of Botany
> 120 Marsh Life Science Building
> University of Vermont
> Burlington, VT 05405
>
> (802) 578-3050 (cell)
> (802) 656-0423 (work)From oz4130@yahoo.com  Mon Jan 19 19:03:29 2004
> Return-Path: <oz4130@yahoo.com>
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> Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2004 17:04:02 -0800 (PST)
> From: scott deputy <oz4130@yahoo.com>
> To: pct-l@mailman.backcountry.net
> MIME-Version: 1.0
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> Subject: [pct-l] hostels along the trail
> X-BeenThere: pct-l@mailman.backcountry.net
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>
> I can't afford to stay in motels unless I split the cost with other
hikers.
> I'm looking for a list of Hostels or very hiker friendly (cheap) motels
that
> I can stay at without having to shack up.
>
> from lurking and reading I have picked up the following, I'm sure there
are
> more.
>
> Agua Dulce - Hiker Heaven
>
> Pink Motel
>
> Truckee - Pooh's Corner
>
> Belden - Hostel
>
> Etna - Hostel (I think there was a post that said this was out of
business)
>
> Ashland - Youth Hostel
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the "Signing Bonus" SweepstakesFrom
> DPlotnikoff@mercurynews.com  Mon Jan 19 19:15:23 2004
> Return-Path: <DPlotnikoff@mercurynews.com>
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> From: "Plotnikoff, David" <DPlotnikoff@mercurynews.com>
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> Subject: [pct-l] permit paperwork in No. Cal. and Oregon
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>
> Greetings from a longtime list lurker and section hiker.
>
>  This season I'm doing Peavine Creek ("infamous" section O which was in
> great shape when I stopped there last year) north to Willamette Pass.
That's
> 477 miles, just under the line when it comes to getting a blanket permit
> from PCTA.
>
> Over the last week, I've been calling various National Forest offices
trying
> to ascertain whether I need any wilderness permits at all. After being
> shuttled from ranger district office to ranger district office (the PCT of
> course, skirts the edge of many different jurisdictions) I've come to the
> conclusion that the answer is NO.
>
>  Although Shasta-Trinity and Klamath NF offices seemed to be the most
> confused (with contradictory information about areas such as Castle Crags
> Wilderness and Trinity Alps wilderness being dispensed on their Web sites
> and by their occasionally clueless headquarters administrative staff) I
> explained as clearly as I could that I would be passing *through* both of
> those without stopping to camp in either. That seemed to clear that up.
They
> seemed much firmer in declaring I wouldn't need permits to camp in either
> the Russian or Marble wilderness.
>
> The situation got clearer past the Oregon border. No ranger district
office
> I called on the Winema, Willamette or Deschutes NFs needed any permit
> paperwork at all for Sky Lakes, Diamond Lake/Mt. Thiesen wilderness, etc.
>
> Does my information square with the experience of those who have done this
> section recently? I can't see any mention in any journal of permit hassles
> through here. (Yogi? The Hiker formerly known as Cupcake? Your thoughts?)
> It's just as a Bay Area person whose early experiences were shaped by many
> summers in Yosemite and Inyo NF, I'm just programmed to figure I have to
> fill out six forms in triplicate every time I grab my trowel and ...
>
> Thank you.
>
>
> David Plotnikoff
> San Jose Mercury News
> (408) 920-5867
> dplotnikoff@mercurynews.com
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2004 17:20:42 -0800
> From: "John Vonhof" <johnvonhof@comcast.net>
> Subject: [pct-l] Keen Sandals
> To: "Jim Keener" <jkeener@pct04.com>, <pct-l@backcountry.net>
> Message-ID: <007201c3def3$9f7eeaa0$6501a8c0@davisnet.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> Jim asked:
> >> Anyone have experience with these?
>
> A friend who was on the testing staff at Teva is going to start to help
them
> with development and marketing. Their website is pretty bare so far.
> http://www.keenfootwear.com. I will be following them and do a review in
one
> of the upcoming issues of my ezine.
>
> John Vonhof
> http://www.johnvonhof.com
> Fixing Your Feet: Prevention and Treatment for Athletes
> http://www.footworkpub.com
> Subscribe to the free Fixing Your Feet Ezine at
> mailto:FixingYourFeetEzine-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2004 17:27:27 -0800
> From: "Ken Powers" <kdpo@pacbell.net>
> Subject: Re: [pct-l] permit paperwork in No. Cal. and Oregon
> To: "Plotnikoff, David" <DPlotnikoff@mercurynews.com>,
> <pct-l@mailman.backcountry.net>
> Message-ID: <004f01c3def4$90e02120$6501a8c0@pacbell.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> Sounds to me like you should hike that last 23 miles (maybe 12 out and 12
> back) and get your permit from the PCTA. :) Or at least tell thaem that
your
> are.
>
> Ken
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Plotnikoff, David" <DPlotnikoff@mercurynews.com>
> To: <pct-l@mailman.backcountry.net>
> Sent: Monday, January 19, 2004 5:12 PM
> Subject: [pct-l] permit paperwork in No. Cal. and Oregon
>
>
> > Greetings from a longtime list lurker and section hiker.
> >
> >  This season I'm doing Peavine Creek ("infamous" section O which was in
> > great shape when I stopped there last year) north to Willamette Pass.
> That's
> > 477 miles, just under the line when it comes to getting a blanket permit
> > from PCTA.
> >
> > Over the last week, I've been calling various National Forest offices
> trying
> > to ascertain whether I need any wilderness permits at all. After being
> > shuttled from ranger district office to ranger district office (the PCT
of
> > course, skirts the edge of many different jurisdictions) I've come to
the
> > conclusion that the answer is NO.
> >
> >  Although Shasta-Trinity and Klamath NF offices seemed to be the most
> > confused (with contradictory information about areas such as Castle
Crags
> > Wilderness and Trinity Alps wilderness being dispensed on their Web
sites
> > and by their occasionally clueless headquarters administrative staff) I
> > explained as clearly as I could that I would be passing *through* both
of
> > those without stopping to camp in either. That seemed to clear that up.
> They
> > seemed much firmer in declaring I wouldn't need permits to camp in
either
> > the Russian or Marble wilderness.
> >
> > The situation got clearer past the Oregon border. No ranger district
> office
> > I called on the Winema, Willamette or Deschutes NFs needed any permit
> > paperwork at all for Sky Lakes, Diamond Lake/Mt. Thiesen wilderness,
etc.
> >
> > Does my information square with the experience of those who have done
this
> > section recently? I can't see any mention in any journal of permit
hassles
> > through here. (Yogi? The Hiker formerly known as Cupcake? Your
thoughts?)
> > It's just as a Bay Area person whose early experiences were shaped by
many
> > summers in Yosemite and Inyo NF, I'm just programmed to figure I have to
> > fill out six forms in triplicate every time I grab my trowel and ...
> >
> > Thank you.
> >
> >
> > David Plotnikoff
> > San Jose Mercury News
> > (408) 920-5867
> > dplotnikoff@mercurynews.com
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > pct-l mailing list
> > pct-l@mailman.backcountry.net
> > unsubscribe or change options:
> > http://mailman.hack.net/mailman/listinfo/pct-l
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: 19 Jan 2004 17:41:58 -0800
> From: "David Dalbey" <david@dalbey.org>
> Subject: RE: [pct-l] Sierra East Side Shuttle Service?
> To: pct-l@mailman.backcountry.net
> Message-ID: <AJEPKLIKKCDNKOAKPLFEMEGICIAA.david@dalbey.org>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
>
>
> http://www.countyofinyo.org/transit/transit.htm
>
>
> :
> :
> :Hello all,
> :
> :Recently, on a drive up I-395, I saw a sign for a shuttle
> :service on the East Side of the Sierra, but now I can't quite
> :recall the name, nor can I find it on the internet...
> :
> :Does anyone happen to know how to contact this shuttle service?
> :
> ::
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2004 20:32:47 EST
> From: Bighummel@aol.com
> Subject: Re: [pct-l] permit paperwork in No. Cal. and Oregon
> To: DPlotnikoff@mercurynews.com, pct-l@mailman.backcountry.net
> Message-ID: <18e.24c5bbb8.2d3ddf3f@aol.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
>
> THIS IS THE PERMIT POLICE!  COME OUT OF THE FOREST WITH YOUR HANDS UP AND
> LAY
> YOUR ICE AXE DOWN SSSLLLOOOWWWLLLYYY!
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 6
> Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2004 19:56:50 -0700
> From: "Jerry Goller" <jerrygoller@backpackgeartest.org>
> Subject: RE: [pct-l] permit paperwork in No. Cal. and Oregon
> To: <pct-l@mailman.backcountry.net>
> Message-ID: <041d01c3df01$0e385500$6502a8c0@toshibauser>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
>
> I've found the best plan for dealing with the government is to lie. Tell
> them what ever they want to hear then do what you planned on doing
> anyway. It makes both them and you happy.....    =o)
> Jerry
>
> http://www.BackpackGearTest.org : the most comprehensive interactive
> gear reviews and tests on the planet.
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: pct-l-bounces@mailman.backcountry.net
> [mailto:pct-l-bounces@mailman.backcountry.net] On Behalf Of Plotnikoff,
> David
> Sent: Monday, January 19, 2004 6:13 PM
> To: 'pct-l@mailman.backcountry.net'
> Subject: [pct-l] permit paperwork in No. Cal. and Oregon
>
>
> Greetings from a longtime list lurker and section hiker.
>
>  This season I'm doing Peavine Creek ("infamous" section O which was in
> great shape when I stopped there last year) north to Willamette Pass.
> That's 477 miles, just under the line when it comes to getting a blanket
> permit from PCTA.
>
> Over the last week, I've been calling various National Forest offices
> trying to ascertain whether I need any wilderness permits at all. After
> being shuttled from ranger district office to ranger district office
> (the PCT of course, skirts the edge of many different jurisdictions)
> I've come to the conclusion that the answer is NO.
>
>  Although Shasta-Trinity and Klamath NF offices seemed to be the most
> confused (with contradictory information about areas such as Castle
> Crags Wilderness and Trinity Alps wilderness being dispensed on their
> Web sites and by their occasionally clueless headquarters administrative
> staff) I explained as clearly as I could that I would be passing
> *through* both of those without stopping to camp in either. That seemed
> to clear that up. They seemed much firmer in declaring I wouldn't need
> permits to camp in either the Russian or Marble wilderness.
>
> The situation got clearer past the Oregon border. No ranger district
> office I called on the Winema, Willamette or Deschutes NFs needed any
> permit paperwork at all for Sky Lakes, Diamond Lake/Mt. Thiesen
> wilderness, etc.
>
> Does my information square with the experience of those who have done
> this section recently? I can't see any mention in any journal of permit
> hassles through here. (Yogi? The Hiker formerly known as Cupcake? Your
> thoughts?) It's just as a Bay Area person whose early experiences were
> shaped by many summers in Yosemite and Inyo NF, I'm just programmed to
> figure I have to fill out six forms in triplicate every time I grab my
> trowel and ...
>
> Thank you.
>
>
> David Plotnikoff
> San Jose Mercury News
> (408) 920-5867
> dplotnikoff@mercurynews.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> pct-l mailing list
> pct-l@mailman.backcountry.net
> unsubscribe or change options:
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>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 7
> Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2004 19:46:57 -0800
> From: "ECPG" <ECPG@peoplepc.com>
> Subject: Re: [pct-l] permit paperwork around Lake Tahoe
> To: <pct-l@mailman.backcountry.net>
> Message-ID: <002e01c3df08$1e3db9c0$08e64b43@user>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> While we're talking about permits, does the thru hiker permit work for the
> whole PCT section that is part of the Tahoe Rim Trail? Is a separate
permit
> required for Desolation Wilderness especially if we are going to camp
there,
> or will the thru hiker permit get us through that area?
> Are we going to need any other permits that are not self issuing on the
TRT?
> We will not have a car or back up and hitching with goats is a problem.
One
> of us has to stay while the other goes anyplace.
>
> Carolyn Eddy
> Goattracks Magazine
> www.goattracksmagazine.com
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 8
> Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2004 20:01:20 -0800 (PST)
> From: goslowgofar <goslowgofar@yahoo.com>
> Subject: Re: [pct-l] permit paperwork around Lake Tahoe
> To: pct-l@mailman.backcountry.net
> Message-ID: <20040120040120.75324.qmail@web20027.mail.yahoo.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>
> Carolyn,
> Here is a link to the TRT website's thru-hiker page.  There is information
> regarding permits.
> Katy
>
> http://tahoerimtrail.org/thru_hike.htm
>
> ECPG <ECPG@peoplepc.com> wrote:While we're talking about permits, does the
> thru hiker permit work for the
> whole PCT section that is part of the Tahoe Rim Trail? Is a separate
permit
> required for Desolation Wilderness especially if we are going to camp
there,
> or will the thru hiker permit get us through that area?
> Are we going to need any other permits that are not self issuing on the
TRT?
> We will not have a car or back up and hitching with goats is a problem.
One
> of us has to stay while the other goes anyplace.
>
> Carolyn Eddy
> Goattracks Magazine
> www.goattracksmagazine.com
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> pct-l mailing list
> pct-l@mailman.backcountry.net
> unsubscribe or change options:
> http://mailman.hack.net/mailman/listinfo/pct-l
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the "Signing Bonus" SweepstakesFrom
> wandering_bob@comcast.net  Mon Jan 19 22:04:36 2004
> Return-Path: <wandering_bob@comcast.net>
> X-Original-To: pct-l@mailman.backcountry.net
> Delivered-To: pct-l@mailman.backcountry.net
> Received: from sccrmhc13.comcast.net (sccrmhc13.comcast.net
> [204.127.202.64])
> by edina.hack.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id B37993C400
> for <pct-l@mailman.backcountry.net>;
> Mon, 19 Jan 2004 22:04:28 -0600 (CST)
> Received: from BOB (c-67-168-192-161.client.comcast.net[67.168.192.161])
> by comcast.net (sccrmhc13) with SMTP
> id <2004012004050201600gccc4e>; Tue, 20 Jan 2004 04:05:02 +0000
> Message-ID: <000701c3df0a$93910e50$6401a8c0@BOB>
> From: "Bob Bankhead" <wandering_bob@comcast.net>
> To: "ECPG" <ECPG@peoplepc.com>, <pct-l@mailman.backcountry.net>
> References:
>
<C742294845ABD41190920008C7A4CFB00DAF1E1A@email1.mercurynews.com><004f01c3de
> f4$90e02120$6501a8c0@pacbell.net>
> <002e01c3df08$1e3db9c0$08e64b43@user>
> Subject: Re: [pct-l] permit paperwork around Lake Tahoe
> Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2004 20:05:00 -0800
> MIME-Version: 1.0
> Content-Type: text/plain;
> charset="iso-8859-1"
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
> X-Priority: 3
> X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
> X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158
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> Cc:
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> X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2
> Precedence: list
> List-Id: Pacific Crest Trail Mailing List  <pct-l.mailman.backcountry.net>
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>
> Yes, a PCTA permit works everywhere along the PCT. It will not work for
the
> remainder of the Tahoe Rim Trail, only for the 45 miles where they are one
> in the same.
>
> Wandering Bob
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "ECPG" <ECPG@peoplepc.com>
> To: <pct-l@mailman.backcountry.net>
> Sent: Monday, January 19, 2004 7:46 PM
> Subject: Re: [pct-l] permit paperwork around Lake Tahoe
>
>
> > While we're talking about permits, does the thru hiker permit work for
the
> > whole PCT section that is part of the Tahoe Rim Trail? Is a separate
> permit
> > required for Desolation Wilderness especially if we are going to camp
> there,
> > or will the thru hiker permit get us through that area?
> > Are we going to need any other permits that are not self issuing on the
> TRT?
> > We will not have a car or back up and hitching with goats is a problem.
> One
> > of us has to stay while the other goes anyplace.
> >
> > Carolyn Eddy
> > Goattracks Magazine
> > www.goattracksmagazine.com
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > pct-l mailing list
> > pct-l@mailman.backcountry.net
> > unsubscribe or change options:
> > http://mailman.hack.net/mailman/listinfo/pct-l
> >
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 9
> Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2004 22:24:38 -0600
> From: "yogi yogi" <yogilists@hotmail.com>
> Subject: [pct-l] permit paperwork in No. Cal. and Oregon
> To: pct-l@mailman.backcountry.net
> Message-ID: <Law15-F76iGnSqJIc0y00000af6@hotmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
>
> If I read this correctly, your 447 miles are all on the PCT??  Why not
> "plan" a 500-mile trip.  Apply for your PCT thru-hiker permit.  When
you're
> on the trail, "something" will happen which will prevent you from
completing
>
> the last 53 miles of your"planned" hike.  So you go home after walking 447
> miles.
>
> hee hee hee.
>
> Each year, multiple potential thru-hikers start the trail with their
> 500+mile thru-hiker permit.  They quit at Lake Morena, or Big Bear City,
or
> Wrightwood.  They go home after not hiking at least 500 miles.  Yet they
> were covered by the permit.
>
> Don't get me wrong, you're doing the right thing.  It just seems like a
lot
> of work when the "Visitor's Permit" provided by the PCTA would cover you
> just fine.
>
> yogi
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Rethink your business approach for the new year with the helpful tips
here.
> http://special.msn.com/bcentral/prep04.armx
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 10
> Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2004 21:29:17 -0800
> From: "Marshall Karon" <m.karon@comcast.net>
> Subject: Re: [pct-l] hostels along the trail
> To: "scott deputy" <oz4130@yahoo.com>, <pct-l@mailman.backcountry.net>
> Message-ID: <002301c3df16$595ae6f0$6401a8c0@YOUR357898FF1F>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> There is also one at Snoqualmie in Washington. Also Trail Angels at Donner
> Summit (Pooh Corner). You might be able to stay at Big Lake Youth Camp
just
> past Mt. Washington in Oregon. There also are group camping spots like Big
> Bear, Sied Valley, Kennedy Meadows, Tuolumne Meadows.
>
> However, part of the fun is going in with a group and renting a cabin or
> room in Oregon (Elk Lake, Ollallie Lake, etc.) or Washington (White Pass
> comes to mind) or other places. Be open to what comes.
>
> Marshall Karon
> Portland, OR
> m.karon@comcast.net
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "scott deputy" <oz4130@yahoo.com>
> To: <pct-l@mailman.backcountry.net>
> Sent: Monday, January 19, 2004 5:04 PM
> Subject: [pct-l] hostels along the trail
>
>
> > I can't afford to stay in motels unless I split the cost with other
> hikers. I'm looking for a list of Hostels or very hiker friendly (cheap)
> motels that I can stay at without having to shack up.
> >
> > from lurking and reading I have picked up the following, I'm sure there
> are more.
> >
> > Agua Dulce - Hiker Heaven
> >
> > Pink Motel
> >
> > Truckee - Pooh's Corner
> >
> > Belden - Hostel
> >
> > Etna - Hostel (I think there was a post that said this was out of
> business)
> >
> > Ashland - Youth Hostel
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------------
> > Do you Yahoo!?
> > Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the "Signing Bonus" Sweepstakes
> > _______________________________________________
> > pct-l mailing list
> > pct-l@mailman.backcountry.net
> > unsubscribe or change options:
> > http://mailman.hack.net/mailman/listinfo/pct-l
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 11
> Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2004 23:30:39 -0600
> From: "yogi yogi" <yogilists@hotmail.com>
> Subject: [pct-l] Sierra East Side Shuttle Service?
> To: pct-l@mailman.backcountry.net
> Message-ID: <Law15-F109k8a582BEs00055062@hotmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
>
> try:    http://www.countyofinyo.org/transit/transit.htm
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Find high-speed 'net deals - comparison-shop your local providers here.
> https://broadband.msn.com
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 12
> Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2004 10:15:17 +0100
> From: adrian.borner@ch.abb.com
> Subject: [pct-l] South-bound questions
> To: pct-l@mailman.backcountry.net
> Message-ID:
>
> <OFDFBD20B2.B3F42588-ONC1256E21.00309925-C1256E21.0032D618@ch.abb.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>
>
> Slowly I start with my planning for this years section hike from the
> Canadian border to Oregon. I was thinking of flying into Seattle early
> August where I would prepare and send off my mail-drops. One possibility
> then would be to take Greyhound and travel to Manning Park via Vancouver.
> Since with my Swiss passport I am a bit worried about the border sitation,
> i.e. re-entering the US via the Green Border, I wonder if there is a
> possibility accessing the northern terminus of the PCT from the South,
i.e.
> without leaving the States?
> The other questions is how many miles per day can I expect to make during
> this August-September hike, taking into account the shorter days. I am in
> reasonable good shape and averaged 20 miles on the AT (including days
off)?
> Thanks
> Adrian alias Matterhorn AT01
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 13
> Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2004 01:56:33 -0800 (PST)
> From: Ilja Friedel <ilja@cs.caltech.edu>
> Subject: Re: [pct-l] South-bound questions
> To: adrian.borner@ch.abb.com
> Cc: pct-l@mailman.backcountry.net
> Message-ID:
>
> <Pine.LNX.4.44.0401200147570.26159-100000@performance.cs.caltech.edu>
> Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
>
> Hi Adrian,
>
> > Since with my Swiss passport I am a bit worried about the border
sitation,
> > i.e. re-entering the US via the Green Border
>
> I would seriously advice against entering the US via the "green border".
> The current poltical situation does not allow it. Your chances of being
> detected crossing it might be small. But
> a) US immigration is getting pretty good at tracking (legal) visitors
>    using global data-bases. They might notice that you've left to
>    Canada, did not enter officially and want to leave again
> b) In case that you are caught punishment is fairly severe. You might
>    want to fight extradiction, which can be decided by fairly low
>    ranking immigration officers. Legal expenses can be high and future
>    entries impossible. (This happened to a colleage of mine.)
>
> I don't think the trade-off between risk and benefit is worth it right
> now.
>
> Ilja.
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 14
> Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2004 04:12:15 -0800 (PST)
> From: scott deputy <oz4130@yahoo.com>
> Subject: Re: [pct-l] hostels along the trail
> To: pct-l@mailman.backcountry.net
> Message-ID: <20040120121215.2008.qmail@web60510.mail.yahoo.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>
> I agree, I'm looking foreward to meeting lots of people and sharring
rooms.
> I was just looking for options of places that I could afford to crash by
my
> self IF needed.  Thanks for the suggestions.
> scott
>
> Marshall Karon <m.karon@comcast.net> wrote:
> However, part of the fun is going in with a group and renting a cabin or
> room in Oregon (Elk Lake, Ollallie Lake, etc.) or Washington (White Pass
> comes to mind) or other places. Be open to what comes.
> the "Signing Bonus" Sweepstakes
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the "Signing Bonus" SweepstakesFrom Slyatpct@aol.com
> Tue Jan 20 06:55:18 2004
> Return-Path: <Slyatpct@aol.com>
> X-Original-To: pct-l@mailman.backcountry.net
> Delivered-To: pct-l@mailman.backcountry.net
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> by edina.hack.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4B65E3C417
> for <pct-l@mailman.backcountry.net>;
> Tue, 20 Jan 2004 06:55:10 -0600 (CST)
> Received: from Slyatpct@aol.com
> by imo-r02.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v36_r4.12.) id 1.121.2a1181d4
> (4592);
> Tue, 20 Jan 2004 07:55:44 -0500 (EST)
> From: Slyatpct@aol.com
> Message-ID: <121.2a1181d4.2d3e7f50@aol.com>
> Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2004 07:55:44 EST
> Subject: Re: [pct-l] South-bound questions
> To: adrian.borner@ch.abb.com, pct-l@mailman.backcountry.net
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>
>
> If you don't want to enter the US illegally, you could always tag the
border
>
> from Harts Pass which is accessible by road and retrace your steps.  The
> last
> 32 miles of official trail are pretty awesome and well worth doing both
> ways.
>
> Sly
>
> In a message dated 1/20/2004 4:20:57 AM Eastern Standard Time,
> adrian.borner@ch.abb.com writes:
>
> > Since with my Swiss passport I am a bit worried about the border
sitation,
> > i.e. re-entering the US via the Green Border, I wonder if there is a
> > possibility accessing the northern terminus of the PCT from the South,
> i.e.
> > without leaving the States?
> > The other questions is how many miles per day can I expect to make
during
> > this August-September hike, taking into account the shorter days. I am
in
> > reasonable good shape and averaged 20 miles on the AT (including days
> off)?
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 15
> Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2004 09:21:14 -0500 (EST)
> From: Christopher Willett <chwillet@indiana.edu>
> Subject: Re: [pct-l] South-bound questions
> To: Slyatpct@aol.com
> Cc: pct-l@mailman.backcountry.net, adrian.borner@ch.abb.com
> Message-ID:
> <Pine.GSO.3.96.1040120091926.29098A-100000@ariel.ucs.indiana.edu>
> Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
>
> I would definitely not skip the last part of the trail. From Harts Pass to
> the border are, I think, some of the best miles in Washington, the Goat
> Rocks and Fire Creek pass notwithstanding.
>
> Suge
>
> On Tue, 20 Jan 2004 Slyatpct@aol.com wrote:
>
> >
> > If you don't want to enter the US illegally, you could always tag the
> border
> > from Harts Pass which is accessible by road and retrace your steps.  The
> last
> > 32 miles of official trail are pretty awesome and well worth doing both
> ways.
> >
> > Sly
> >
> > In a message dated 1/20/2004 4:20:57 AM Eastern Standard Time,
> > adrian.borner@ch.abb.com writes:
> >
> > > Since with my Swiss passport I am a bit worried about the border
> sitation,
> > > i.e. re-entering the US via the Green Border, I wonder if there is a
> > > possibility accessing the northern terminus of the PCT from the South,
> i.e.
> > > without leaving the States?
> > > The other questions is how many miles per day can I expect to make
> during
> > > this August-September hike, taking into account the shorter days. I am
> in
> > > reasonable good shape and averaged 20 miles on the AT (including days
> off)?
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > pct-l mailing list
> > pct-l@mailman.backcountry.net
> > unsubscribe or change options:
> > http://mailman.hack.net/mailman/listinfo/pct-l
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> ----------------------
> Christopher Willett
> Department of Mathematics
> Indiana University
> 831 East Third Street
> Bloomington, IN. 47405-7106
> (812)-855-1883
> chwillet@indiana.edu
> mypage.iu.edu/~chwillet
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 16
> Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2004 11:33:34 EST
> From: CMountainDave@aol.com
> Subject: Re: [pct-l] South-bound questions
> Cc: pct-l@mailman.backcountry.net
> Message-ID: <1d3.182b5e6d.2d3eb25e@aol.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
>
> If you are worried about the border, I would start at Hart's pass. I
believe
>
> there is bus service to the town of Winthrop, a medium sized town where
> supplies should be available. Or mail a package to the tiny town of
Mazama.
> You
> would need to get a ride to Mazama, about 20 miles from Winthrop. From
> Mazama you
> would need a ride to Hart's Pass, about another 20 miles away. If you have
> the
> money you could make reservations at a major lodge in Methow Valley and
> request transportation from Winthrop to Hart's Pass to avoid the hitches.
> http://www.methownet.com.  Harts Pass to the Canadian Border is about 20
> miles. You
> could probably get the ranger at Harts pass to keep a cache of food to
pick
> up on
> your way back from Canada. Another option is to just start south from
Harts
> Pass
>     By August you should know the situation of the reroute through Glacier
> Peak wilderness. If long detours and road walks are required you might
> consider
> starting at Steven's Pass. Not sure about transportation to Steven's Pass
> from
> Seattle
>
>  Went skiing over the weekend. There's been very little new snow the last
> few
> weeks and so the snowpack is now at normal levels or even slightly below
> average at most places in Wa.     David C
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 17
> Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2004 11:52:11 EST
> From: Slyatpct@aol.com
> Subject: Re: [pct-l] South-bound questions
> To: pct-l@mailman.backcountry.net
> Message-ID: <154.2c047efc.2d3eb6bb@aol.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
>
> In a message dated 1/20/2004 11:35:14 AM Eastern Standard Time,
> CMountainDave@aol.com writes:
>
> > Harts Pass to the Canadian Border is about 20 miles.
> >
> >
>
> Maybe as the crow flies or they shortened the trail in the last few years,
> but according to the '95 guide, it's 31.4 miles from Harts Pass to the
> border.
>
> Sly
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 18
> Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2004 09:06:13 -0800
> From: "Bob Bankhead" <wandering_bob@comcast.net>
> Subject: Re: [pct-l] South-bound questions
> To: <pct-l@mailman.backcountry.net>
> Message-ID: <003701c3df77$b5dc1eb0$6401a8c0@BOB>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> Actually, there is no public transportation into Winthrop. The closest
> Greyhound is in Okanogan, quite a ways east along highway 20. The airport
is
> private - small planes only. No train. There is a new, local shuttle taxi
> http://www.methownet.com/mountaintransporter.html but you're still 165
miles
> from Seattle. I got caught there when a freak, record-setting storm forced
> even the local hunters down out of the wilderness in '97. My dear wife had
> to drive 7 hours from Portland, OR to rescue me.
>
> Wandering Bob
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: <CMountainDave@aol.com>
> Cc: <pct-l@mailman.backcountry.net>
> Sent: Tuesday, January 20, 2004 8:33 AM
> Subject: Re: [pct-l] South-bound questions
>
>
> > If you are worried about the border, I would start at Hart's pass. I
> believe
> > there is bus service to the town of Winthrop.
> >
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 19
> Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2004 10:28:04 -0700
> From: "Marge Prothman" <marge@prothman.org>
> Subject: RE: [pct-l] South-bound questions
> To: <pct-l@mailman.backcountry.net>
> Message-ID: <000001c3df7a$c3468a10$6501a8c0@marge20g04myym>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> South bound hiker:
>
> I Agree with Sly if you can get a hitch or transportation to Harts Pass.
> Then Hike ONLY to the monument, once past this you have crossed the border
> into Canada.
> This would be 31.4 miles...  it is another 7.2 miles into Manning Park.
> Then start your hike South from the monument.  As others have said this is
> marvelous country and you are only adding an additional  31.4 miles to
your
> trip and maybe for you it would only be a long days hike.  I think your
> first resupply would then be at Stehiken (without hitching to the next
small
> town). Do not think there was much damage on that part of the trail, but I
> could be wrong.
> Hope it all works out.
> Cheers,
> Marge   [The Old Gal]
> http://www.prothman.org/marge
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 20
> Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2004 10:19:06 -0800
> From: "Bob Bankhead" <wandering_bob@comcast.net>
> Subject: Re: [pct-l] South-bound questions
> To: <pct-l@mailman.backcountry.net>
> Message-ID: <000d01c3df81$e412abf0$6401a8c0@BOB>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> Marge is absolutely correct. However, allow me to offer one small
> modification.
>
> Dig in a cache at Hart's Pass containing your supplies for the south-bound
> trip to Stehekin, then go north to the border and back. The Harts Pass
> ranger station probably won't be manned when you pass through so why risk
> not being able to drop off or recover your supplies? Incidentally, that is
a
> tough 31 miles to the border and another 31 back to Harts Pass.
>
> You can always do Manning Park to the border and back to Manning before
you
> start at Harts Pass. That way, you cross the border legally both times.
This
> is the wrong climate in which to "test" the immigration and border patrol
> agencies on either side of the border. You could get shot with all the
> pressure and paranoia of the moment. Scruffy, dirty hikers fit the profile
> of radical  terrorists.
>
> Wandering Bob
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Marge Prothman" <marge@prothman.org>
> To: <pct-l@mailman.backcountry.net>
> Sent: Tuesday, January 20, 2004 9:28 AM
> Subject: RE: [pct-l] South-bound questions
>
>
> South bound hiker:
>
> I Agree with Sly if you can get a hitch or transportation to Harts Pass.
> Then Hike ONLY to the monument, once past this you have crossed the border
> into Canada.
> This would be 31.4 miles...  it is another 7.2 miles into Manning Park.
> Then start your hike South from the monument.  As others have said this is
> marvelous country and you are only adding an additional  31.4 miles to
your
> trip and maybe for you it would only be a long days hike.  I think your
> first resupply would then be at Stehiken (without hitching to the next
small
> town). Do not think there was much damage on that part of the trail, but I
> could be wrong.
> Hope it all works out.
> Cheers,
> Marge   [The Old Gal]
> http://www.prothman.org/marge
>
> _______________________________________________
> pct-l mailing list
> pct-l@mailman.backcountry.net
> unsubscribe or change options:
> http://mailman.hack.net/mailman/listinfo/pct-l
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 21
> Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2004 13:34:12 EST
> From: Slyatpct@aol.com
> Subject: Re: [pct-l] South-bound questions
> To: pct-l@mailman.backcountry.net
> Message-ID: <94.4243cb42.2d3ecea4@aol.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
>
> In a message dated 1/20/2004 1:19:56 PM Eastern Standard Time,
> wandering_bob@comcast.net writes:
>
> > Incidentally, that is a
> > tough 31 miles to the border and another 31 back to Harts Pass.
> >
>
> With it snowing, we thought it best to hike past Lakeview Ridge instead of
> getting stuck and camped at Hopkins Lake some 25... miles starting from
> Harts
> Pass, so it is doable roundtrip, in two or three days for a strong hiker.
I
>
> might add, although I had a few, I didn't average 20 mpd on the AT, nor
> would I
> attempt to.
>
>
> >
> > You can always do Manning Park to the border and back to Manning before
> you
> > start at Harts Pass.
> >
> >
>
> To each their own, but why bother with the logistics, since the last few
> miles to Manning Park aren't official PCT and imo, aren't noteworthy.
>
> YMMV,
>
> Sly
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 22
> Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2004 14:17:27 EST
> From: CMountainDave@aol.com
> Subject: Re: [pct-l] South-bound questions
> To: pct-l@mailman.backcountry.net
> Message-ID: <124.29fe73a8.2d3ed8c7@aol.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
>
> OOPs sorry about the misinformation. I was just guessing on the mileage. I
> thought there was transportation to Winthrop because when I was in Mazama
> someone offered to take me to Winthrop so I could catch a bus instead of
> hitching to
> Bellingham. Looks like it is pretty hard to get to Winthrop via public
> transportation. There is a shuttle service once you get to Methow Valley,
> even to
> Harts Pass David C
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 23
> Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2004 14:30:47 -0800
> From: "Joanne Lennox" <goforth@cio.net>
> Subject: Re: [pct-l] Sierra East Side Shuttle Service?
> To: "J. Bradley Materick" <jbmaterick@stanfordalumni.org>,
> <pct-l@mailman.backcountry.net>
> Message-ID: <200401202002.i0KK2Jch025335@cnwmail.isomedia.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
> Wilder House Shuttle in Independence(skip Wilder), 760-878-2119.  they run
> a kind of bed and breakfast(?).  I called him on the spur of the moment,
He
> was there in 10 minutes and also allowed me to keep my trailer at the
House
> and picked me up driving my trailer.  He was observent, prompt, reliable,
> and interesting. (His Grandfather did the first ascent of Mt. Whitney).
>
> Joanne
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 24
> Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2004 15:31:15 EST
> From: ROYROBIN@aol.com
> Subject: Re: [pct-l] stove
> To: edmond@mydogmeg.net, pct-l@mailman.backcountry.net
> Message-ID: <6a.3a955a39.2d3eea13@aol.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
>
> In a message dated 1/17/04 8:10:54 AM Pacific Standard Time,
> edmond@mydogmeg.net writes:
>
> > I recall Brian Robinson posting over a year ago about the efficiency of
> cat
> >
> > stoves versus Pepsi can stoves.  It was an interesting explanation going
> > into the detail how the fuel and air mixed for efficient heating. If
> anyone
> > saved copy, please forward it to me, I would enjoy re-reading it.
> >
> > Tangent
>
> Here's the entire posting:
> _____
>
> Subj:   [pct-l] Alcohol Stove Design Theory
> Date:   10/23/02 2:48:27 PM Pacific Daylight Time
> From: brian_a_robinson@hotmail.com (Brian Robinson) Sender:
> pct-l-admin@mailman.backcountry.net To: BackpackingLight@yahoogroups.com
CC:
>
> at-l@mailman.backcountry.net, pct-l@mailman.backcountry.net
>
> Aaron,
>
> I don't know how to say this gently, but in my opinion you've stated as
fact
> several things about alcohol stove design that are false. Allow me to be
> specific.
>
> You said:
> >There is no question that a pressurized type of alcohol stove (like the
> >photon or brasslite) will achieve boil faster than an open type, because
> >the pressure causes the fuel to dump its BTUs faster, therefore heating
the
> >water more quickly.
>
> Sorry, but this is completely bogus. A bigger hole could more than make up
> for any pressure effect, even if higher pressure increased flow rate,
which
> it often doesn't. Fluid transport is a VERY complicated non-intuitive
> science, and compressible fluids, like vaporized alcohol are even more
> complicated. It turns out there are two basic types of fluid flow, laminar
> and turbulent. Laminar flow is MUCH more efficient at transferring fluid
> than turbulent flow is. If you've ever watched a creek flowing across a
> smooth granite surface, you've seen both. At first, the water is clear,
then
> white. The clear water is laminar flow. It moves faster than the turbulent
> white water ahead of it, thus it is shallower. The turbulent white water
> ahead is deeper because it's moving more slowly. So it turns out that even
> for a given hole size, flow rate is highly dependent upon whether the flow
> is laminar (fast) or turbulent (slow.) Stoves like yours and soda-can
stoves
> use small holes because they create MORE turbulence. (I'll tell you why
> next.) But the flow rate is REDUCED, not enhanced by this. A large-hole
> stove like the Cat Stove uses the one large hole because this is the best
> way to achieve laminar flow.
>
> If laminar flow is so great, why does a soda-can stove use small holes?
It's
> because turbulent flow is very efficient at mixing the vaporized alcohol
> with oxygen. Fire requires fuel, oxygen and heat. The turbulent flow of a
> soda-can stove ensures that all the alcohol burns very close to the holes,
> i.e. under the pot.
>
> Fire under the pot is where we want it right? Well, sort of. We want the
> fire as close to the bottom of the pot as possible. With a soda-can stove,
> the fire's down low, so it's best to set the pot low, near the burner.
> Hoever, this tends to block oxygen flow, and the turbulent nature of the
> design doesn't help oxygen flow in from the surrounding area. These stoves
> have a pretty blue flame when they're uncovered, but it's often not as
> pretty under a pot and windscreen.
>
> The Cat Stove works much differently. It uses laminar flow, so the
vaporized
> fuel easily and quickly flows from the stove up toward the pot. This
creates
> a chimney effect which draws large amounts of oxygen in the intake holes.
> The problem with laminar flow is that it's not very efficient at mixing
the
> fuel with oxygen. There's large amounts of both flowing up toward the pot,
> but until they mix well, there's not much fire. Fortunately, the pot
itself
> interrupts the flow, creating some turbulence. This means that much of the
> fire is automatically created right where we want it, on the bottom of the
> pot. This can be seen when the Cat Stove is in use. If there's no pot, an
> inefficient cold yellow flame shoots about a foot above the stove, but
when
> the pot is in place, the flame turns blue (hotter and more efficient) and
> stays under the pot.
>
> So which is better? It's not at all clear from the theory. Properly
> constructed, either works very well. In my experience, the turbulent flow
> design is much harder to get right. The diameter and placement of the
holes
> is critical. If the holes clog up with soot, performance suffers. If the
> stove gets bent or damaged, performance suffers. If the pressure leaks
out,
> performance suffers. It takes a good tinkerer to get a sode-can stove
> working really well.
>
> The Cat Stove is much more forgiving. Lots of geometries work quite well.
As
> long as the air flow stays laminar, it works. This means more people can
> successfully make and use a Cat Stove.
>
> You said:
> >There is some trade off in efficiency. Sgt Rock has shown that the open
> >mouth designs use fuel more frugally, albeit creating a significantly
> >longer boil time. Time is one thing we seem to have plenty of in the
woods,
> >and many people don't care that they take longer. The open designs can
also
> >simmer better because of this slower burn. Time to achieve boiling is an
> >elusive thing. I would like to again caution you (and your wife), to not
> >get too hung up on this particular number. Weight of the stove is a
static
> >number that remains constant (assuming the scale is calibrated
correctly).
> >I can say with confidence that the Solo weighs 1.150 ounces. But boil
time
> >is affected by a plethora of factors including water and air temp, stove
> >temp, fuel temp, wind, type of pot used, construction and position of
> >windscreen and even lighting technique. The type of pot and lighting
> >technique seem to be especially volatile. Boil time can even be
> >significantly lowered by darkening the outside of a pot. These factors
> >explain the wide range of reported numbers.
>
> >Aaron
>
> For the record, all contests to date have shown the Cat Stove as the
fastest
> to boil water. (But not by enough that anybody really cares.) Sgt. Rock
> showed that it's MORE fuel efficient than any commercial or home-made
> alcohol stove out there except his own design, which takes about twice as
> long to boil water. This more than makes up for the weight penalty of the
> Cat Stove vs the soda-can stove.
>
> Plans for the Cat Stove can be found at:
> http://royrobinson.homestead.com
>
> Sorry for the soap-box sermon. Can you tell I'm an engineer?
> Flyin' Brian
> _____
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 25
> Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2004 15:31:19 EST
> From: ROYROBIN@aol.com
> Subject: Re: [pct-l] Class of 2004 Gear
> To: Hiker97@aol.com, pct-l@mailman.backcountry.net
> Message-ID: <161.2a897d5b.2d3eea17@aol.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
>
> Here's another option:
>
> (But first, I got no hit on the Campmor URL you mentioned when I tried it,
> so
> can't see what they're offering.)
>
> Just sew a D-ring on the front of each shoulder strap on your pack of
choice
>
> and lasso the tops of your 2 liter soda bottles (or 1.5 liter disposable
> water
> bottles or whatever), and carry all the water you need.  Advantages:
Pretty
>
> near zero cost.  The weight is carried if front instead of in your pack,
> counterbalancing the stuff you have to carry anyway.  The water is easily
> accessible, being in front.  The only problem is, the bottles will swing
as
> you walk.
> So keep them from doing that with some heavy rubber bands or string or, as
I
>
> did, a bit of nylon strapping and velcro.
>
> This will get you from Scissors Crossing to Barrel Springs safely even if
> the
> Trail Angels aren't looking out after you.  With all respect for our TA's,
> who always seem to appear when we most need them, do not leave a water
> source in
> the southern deserts without enough water to get you to the next known
> water.
>  You may get very uncomfortable, or worse.  Oh, and for the Class of '04,
> who
> may not have done all their homework?  The longest stretch of the PCT
> without
> water is not in southern California.  It's the Hat Creek Rim.  Look out
for
> that.
> _____
>
> In a message dated 1/17/04 8:23:08 PM Pacific Standard Time,
Hiker97@aol.com
>
> writes:
>
> > One option for carrying extra water is the Coghlan's universal bottle
> > carrier
> > (see www.campmor .com, #87672-H).  I use two for carrying two 1.5 liter
> > bottles (from the local health food store, SmartWater).  The Velcro
> > adjustable
> > straps around the bottle are very adjustable with a wide range of sizes.
> >
> > The carrier comes with straps so you can carry it across your chest and
> > weighs 2.75 ounces/$3.99 each.  Not bad for carrying 1.5 liters.
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 26
> Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2004 15:04:53 -0800
> From: "Joanne Lennox" <goforth@cio.net>
> Subject: Re: [pct-l] South-bound questions
> To: <pct-l@mailman.backcountry.net>, <adrian.borner@ch.abb.com>
> Message-ID: <200401202036.i0KKaOch006901@cnwmail.isomedia.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
> I did not want to cross the border with my horse(involves a coggins test
> less than a month old, health certificat, vet examine at the border) so I
> did a loop going up the Paysayten river and hooking to the PCT 3 miles
from
> the border at Castle Pass.  I send this discription to another horse owner
> , and have cut and pasted fromthat post:
>
> I avoided the crossing by making a loop and traveling with another person.
> We left one trailer at Rainey pass where we exited, and drove  the other
to
> the robinson Creek Trailhead(informal campsites, good water, no grass,
> hitching rail), just outside of Mazama.  There is a ranger station on the
> road to the trailhead and we left a package of two days of feed there and
> the ranger later transported it to the cabin at Harts Pass.  We rode up
and
> over Robinson Pass, down into the Paysayten River to the "airport" cabin
> (22 miles - no real water at the cabin, lots of grass); then airport over
> Dead Lake Pass into the Chuchwactee Creek , up to Frosty Pass, over to
> Castle Creek on the PCT,where we camped and then rode to the border and
> back -6 miles, about 23 total);Pct south to Hopkins and Woody Pass to a
> camp at "delicious spring" (good water, and very annoying deer that kept
us
> awake all night -about 16 miles, but didn't know about the basins to the
> south, if they had water); thence to Hart,s Pass where there is a very
good
> , but unseen basin with good grass and water just down the road (NE)from
> the cabin .  A fire went through there this year and I don't know what is
> left but seems like some of the best grass on the trail is in burned
areas.
> the next day camped in a small basin on the hillside beyond Glacier Pass
> (some water, little grass, go uphill to a second bench, lots of people on
> the bench near the trail).  Reached Rainey Pass the next day (hitching
> posts on North side at end of road and just beyond bathrooms, not visible
> from parking lot).
>
> If you started at rainy pass and went north, you could backtrack and exit
> from Harts/slate Pass - there is a connector from the PCT at that point to
> the Robinson Pass Trail (about 4 miles to get to the Robinson Pass trail
> and maybe 10 over the pass and down to the trailhead).  Would save a day
or
> two - the terrain from Rainy Pass to Hart's Pass is pretty rough in places
> and a perpetual problem with the tread crawling downhill and being blocked
> by rockfall from above.
>
> Joanne
>
> ----------
> > From: adrian.borner@ch.abb.com
> > To: pct-l@mailman.backcountry.net
> > Subject: [pct-l] South-bound questions
> > Date: Tuesday, January 20, 2004 1:15 AM
> >
> >
> > Slowly I start with my planning for this years section hike from the
> > Canadian border to Oregon. I was thinking of flying into Seattle early
> > August where I would prepare and send off my mail-drops. One possibility
> > then would be to take Greyhound and travel to Manning Park via
Vancouver.
> > Since with my Swiss passport I am a bit worried about the border
> sitation,
> > i.e. re-entering the US via the Green Border, I wonder if there is a
> > possibility accessing the northern terminus of the PCT from the South,
> i.e.
> > without leaving the States?
> > The other questions is how many miles per day can I expect to make
during
> > this August-September hike, taking into account the shorter days. I am
in
> > reasonable good shape and averaged 20 miles on the AT (including days
> off)?
> > Thanks
> > Adrian alias Matterhorn AT01
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > pct-l mailing list
> > pct-l@mailman.backcountry.net
> > unsubscribe or change options:
> > http://mailman.hack.net/mailman/listinfo/pct-l
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 27
> Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2004 15:22:39 -0800
> From: "Joanne Lennox" <goforth@cio.net>
> Subject: Re: [pct-l] South-bound questions
> To: <pct-l@mailman.backcountry.net>, <adrian.borner@ch.abb.com>
> Message-ID: <200401202054.i0KKsAch013620@cnwmail.isomedia.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
> I reread your post,and oneof the main problems that you will have is
> getting to the trailhead from Seattle.  It is much easier to hitch out
from
> a trailhead than it is to start from Sea-Tac Airport and get to Hart,s
> Pass, Rainey Pass etc.
>
> The guide and the traffic will be northbound.  I have used the guide going
> southbound but it is frustrating and sometimes difficult to envision in
the
> opposite direction.  I ended up just using the maps, because the
> descriptions were so useless southbound.  All the thruhiker and long
> distance travelers willl be going northbound for the most part; if you
were
> going north you would sometimes have company and be hiking with others;
> this is unlikely to happen southbound.  Also if you get to know people
> onthe northbound there is a good chance of making a contact that will be
> able to transport you from Rainey Pass.  (It would be even easier if you
> hiked back to Stehikin and took the ferry, a lot of people from Seattle
> visit Stehikin and you could probably find one in Chelen at the ferry
> parking lot, or find somebody on the Ferry).
>
> So why not start from Oregon and go Northbound?  You could fly into
> Portland, and there will probably be some contact from jPortland.  The
> Amtrak Train goes to Eugene, then over to Klamath Falls.  YOu could take a
> bus down I -5 from Eugene,maybe get droppped off at Callahans (on I-5 and
> about 1 mile from the trail.)
>
> Joanne
>
> ----------
> > From: adrian.borner@ch.abb.com
> > To: pct-l@mailman.backcountry.net
> > Subject: [pct-l] South-bound questions
> > Date: Tuesday, January 20, 2004 1:15 AM
> >
> >
> > Slowly I start with my planning for this years section hike from the
> > Canadian border to Oregon. I was thinking of flying into Seattle early
> > August where I would prepare and send off my mail-drops. One possibility
> > then would be to take Greyhound and travel to Manning Park via
Vancouver.
> > Since with my Swiss passport I am a bit worried about the border
> sitation,
> > i.e. re-entering the US via the Green Border, I wonder if there is a
> > possibility accessing the northern terminus of the PCT from the South,
> i.e.
> > without leaving the States?
> > The other questions is how many miles per day can I expect to make
during
> > this August-September hike, taking into account the shorter days. I am
in
> > reasonable good shape and averaged 20 miles on the AT (including days
> off)?
> > Thanks
> > Adrian alias Matterhorn AT01
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > pct-l mailing list
> > pct-l@mailman.backcountry.net
> > unsubscribe or change options:
> > http://mailman.hack.net/mailman/listinfo/pct-l
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 28
> Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2004 15:55:58 EST
> From: Slyatpct@aol.com
> Subject: Re: [pct-l] South-bound questions
> To: adrian.borner@ch.abb.com, pct-l@mailman.backcountry.net
> Message-ID: <a0.373b25a.2d3eefde@aol.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
>
> One more thing Adrian, if you decide to take the trail from Harts Pass
> north,
> you may want to considering doing the 25 miles to Lakeview Ridge and
camping
>
> there depending on the weather.
>
> Had it not been snowing and blowing I would have, the view was absolutely
> stunning.  Try to get there for sunset.  There's a small campsite on the
> ridge
> that's sheltered from winds from the west.  Unfortunately, when I was
there
> the
> winds were blowing hard from the east and I thought better of it, so I
> camped
> down by the lake.  It looks like you can pick up water about 5 miles
south,
> maybe less.
>
> Also, it's the highest point on the trail in Washington, which makes it
> doubly special.
>
> Sly
>
> PS I wouldn't worry about getting to Harts Pass.  Just try and get as
close
> as you can and if you can't find a shuttle, just hitch, it's all part of
the
>
> adventure.
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 29
> Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2004 16:22:34 -0800
> From: "Joanne Lennox" <goforth@cio.net>
> Subject: [pct-l] Major Wanderlust happening here!
> To: "pct-mailing list" <PCT-L@backcountry.net>
> Message-ID: <200401202154.i0KLsach004632@cnwmail.isomedia.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
>
> This feels like withdrawal.  This is the first year in 5 that I don'thave
a
> large trip planned.
>
> Most people are satisfied with a few days out and back trip.  But even
from
> the beganning when I was climbing, I wanted to stay out all summer, and
> climb all the peaks on one ridge, go down into a pass and catch another
> ridge and continue for as long as I could.  Pretty hard to find another
> climber to do this.  Fortunately, for a while I had a husband that liked
> the same thing but he is now retired.
>
> Just hiking has never much satisfied me: I want to go somewhere.  It gets
> something down deep in my soul to be in a new wildness day after day,
> walking and packing.
>
> I wondered if it would be the same if I chose a 100 mile section of the
PCT
> and hiked it back and forth for 2,650 miles.  Or suppose I took an 80 mile
> segment and had a big cache on each end, and leisurely went back and forth
> and did every side trail and spent months in the same area, walking and
> absorbing one area.  Would it be the same?  Which 80-100 mile segment
would
> you choose?
>
> Goforth
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 30
> Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2004 15:08:26 -0700
> From: "Jeffrey J. Olson" <jjolson@uwyo.edu>
> Subject: Re: [pct-l] Major Wanderlust happening here!
> To: "pct-mailing list" <PCT-L@backcountry.net>
> Message-ID: <005301c3dfa1$ed85bf40$f0344881@uwyo.edu>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> Tuolomne Meadows to Whitney or
> Snoqualmie Pass to Stevens Pass
>
> Jeff Olson
> Laramie WY
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Joanne Lennox" <goforth@cio.net>
> To: "pct-mailing list" <PCT-L@backcountry.net>
> Sent: Tuesday, January 20, 2004 5:22 PM
> Subject: [pct-l] Major Wanderlust happening here!
>
>
> >
> > This feels like withdrawal.  This is the first year in 5 that I
don'thave
> a
> > large trip planned.
> >
> > Most people are satisfied with a few days out and back trip.  But even
> from
> > the beganning when I was climbing, I wanted to stay out all summer, and
> > climb all the peaks on one ridge, go down into a pass and catch another
> > ridge and continue for as long as I could.  Pretty hard to find another
> > climber to do this.  Fortunately, for a while I had a husband that liked
> > the same thing but he is now retired.
> >
> > Just hiking has never much satisfied me: I want to go somewhere.  It
gets
> > something down deep in my soul to be in a new wildness day after day,
> > walking and packing.
> >
> > I wondered if it would be the same if I chose a 100 mile section of the
> PCT
> > and hiked it back and forth for 2,650 miles.  Or suppose I took an 80
mile
> > segment and had a big cache on each end, and leisurely went back and
forth
> > and did every side trail and spent months in the same area, walking and
> > absorbing one area.  Would it be the same?  Which 80-100 mile segment
> would
> > you choose?
> >
> > Goforth
> > _______________________________________________
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References:
- [pct-l] RE: Mt Whitney Questions
  - From: jcoyle at sanjuan.edu (John Coyle)
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