[pct-l] cold currents of air

[sierra_marmot at yahoo.com (John Randall)]

The term is "katabatic."  Just as we experience upcanyon winds in the morning as the hot air rises, the opposite occurs in the afternoon and evening.  A river of cold air will settle over the lowest portion of the canyon or drainage, anywhere from 20-100 feet deep.  (see Ray's PCT Hiker's Handbook, page 188-189)

john
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Today's Topics:

1. Re: packs (Jim McEver)
2. Re: Cathedral Lake bears (ROYROBIN@aol.com)
3. Re: adiabatic/katabatic air (CMountainDave@aol.com)
4. Re: Camp Shoes (The Mountain Goat)
5. Re: bears & food - and dogs (goslowgofar)
6. Re: Mars (Lonetrail@aol.com)
7. (no subject) (Gary Monk)
8. Re: Early Season Fording Techniques? (Richard)
9. 'nuf said (CMountainDave@aol.com)
10. Re: Early Season Fording Techniques? (Brian Robinson)
11. Re: Mars (CMountainDave@aol.com)
12. My kind of guy (CMountainDave@aol.com)
13. section hike (Lee Salesky)
14. Re: section hike (dude)
15. Alderbrook Manor, Etna (Jim Keener)
16. RE: Alderbrook Manor, Etna (Kent Ryhorchuk)
17. RE: Alderbrook Manor, Etna (Kent Ryhorchuk)
18. Re: Mars (John Mertes)
19. Re: Camp Shoes (larry hillberg)
20. Re: Alderbrook Manor, Etna (Marshall Karon)
21. Re: section hike (Marshall Karon)
22. Re: Alderbrook Manor, Etna (Slyatpct@aol.com)
23. Re: Early season Streams Techniques and problem creeks
(Alistair & Gail Des Moulins)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: 05 Jan 2004 19:03:31 -0800
From: "Jim McEver" 
Subject: Re: [pct-l] packs
To: PCT-L@mailman.backcountry.net
Message-ID: <1073358212.10386.363.camel@neuromancer.mcever.lo.or.us>
Content-Type: text/plain

I totted an Arc'teryx Bora 95 on a couple of trips - 8#+. Incredibly
comfortable, though, and a really cushy hipbelt. Whupped at the end of
the day, however. It's hard not to fill up a big pack - the load expands
to fill the space available. Maybe the next time I'm humping loads thru
the Khumbhu ;=)

Jim

On Sun, 2004-01-04 at 20:16, CMountainDave@aol.com wrote:
> 
> In a message dated 1/4/04 4:15:09 PM, cdrriess1@cox.net writes:
> 
> << Just for grins, I tool out the postal scale
> 
> just now. 79 ounces. I had guessed 96. Just about any pack would weigh
> 
> less than my pack, >>
> 
> Out of curiosity I went to the Campmor website: the mother of all packs there 
> was the Gregory McKinley 6000 cu in that comes in at a whopping 7 lbs 2 oz. 
> (114ozs.). Can anyone top that or admit to using one heavier at considerable 
> smirk risk from an ultraliter using the Dennis the Menace 2 oz bandana with a 
> stick (balsa wood) pack?
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------------------------------

Message: 2
Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2004 23:26:55 EST
From: ROYROBIN@aol.com
Subject: Re: [pct-l] Cathedral Lake bears 
To: pct-l@mailman.backcountry.net
Message-ID: <16f.28637c33.2d2b930f@aol.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"

Hi Listers! I just re-enabled my PCT list mail after a lengthy rest, to see 
what's happening and get focussed on the 2004 ADZ! Stopped the email last 
summer to hike the JMT with a friend that I met on the AT in '02, and never 
turned it back on. Now I get at least 90 percent spam, so need to get back on the 
list to dilute the garbage with some good stuff. 

We had a great JMT hike in late July, carried bear canisters and saw no bears 
at all. Then again, we didn't camp at Tuolumne Meadows or near Kearsarge 
Pass. 

At risk of re-opening a thread that has apparently run pretty long already, I 
feel the bear canisters are worth their weight in these areas where we've 
trained the bears to look to us as a food source. I sleep better knowing my food 
will still be there in the morning and won't further the Yogis' education, 
and it might actually "Save a Bear." I do agree, the in-charge folks could 
still do a lot more to instill some fear into the bear population for their own 
good.

TrailDad (PCT '99, JMT '01, AT '02, JMT '03) 
_____

In a message dated 1/3/04 8:11:40 PM Pacific Standard Time, kdpo@pacbell.net 
writes:

> That convinced me of the benefits of bear canisters.
> Now if they were just light enough to carry on a thru-hike.


------------------------------

Message: 3
Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2004 23:36:37 EST
From: CMountainDave@aol.com
Subject: Re: [pct-l] adiabatic/katabatic air
To: pct-l@backcountry.net
Message-ID: 
   
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"


In a message dated 1/5/04 7:02:03 PM, kevin@antelecom.net writes:

<< I imagine that at sunset the higher 
cooler air traps the lower hot desert air in an inversion, but as the 
night progresses the warm ground air, compressed from above, gets 
displaced and updrafts against the mountain slopes. Does anyone know 
if my assumption on this is correct? >>

Are there two types of inversion? I am aware of the one where warm air traps 
cold but not vise versa. Maybe the cold air on Baden Powell due to altitude 
sinks until it warms due to compression and then rises without cooling again for 
some reason? Cloud cover? 
Just a guess, but most likely cold air sinking has something to do with it
The strongest inversion I ever experienced was while skiing at Jackson 
Hole. It was -10 at the ski lodge and so warm after getting off the upper lift 
that I could not see my breath - probably in the 50's. A weird ski down. I heard 
that when they did their annual New Year's Day climb of the Grand Teton one 
year, it was -40 in Jackson and above freezing at the summit -- a +70 degree 
difference in about 7000'. On Rainier it is usually about 60 cooler on the summit 
than in Seattle
Speaking of Gunnison, we camped there once on the 4th of July when I was a 
kid an, and there was an inch of ice in a water pail in the morning

------------------------------

Message: 4
Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2004 20:54:03 -0800 (PST)
From: The Mountain Goat 
Subject: Re: [pct-l] Camp Shoes
To: pct mailing list 

Message-ID: <20040106045403.13934.qmail@web40910.mail.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

I have not tried them yet, has anybody else tried this idea of using Teva
Protons for stream crossing?

-The Mt Goat-

Ken Marlow wrote:
Sorry, this may have beaten around before, but I just got back on the list
after a 5 year hiatus. One person mentioned using REI reef walkers (Teva
Protons?). Anyone found that these or something similar make light camp
shoes? 

I'm trying to keep the pack weight down but I'm not at the point of wearing
trail runners as a hiking boots(bad ankles) - currently using Montrail
Torres, as I'm taking a middle-of-the-road approach to ultralight hiking:
Gregory Z, WM Ultralight, Wanderlust 2-4-2 (I hike with my wife), MSR
Simmerlite, etc.

Nike (I think) used to make some camp shoes that bundled flat and were
light, but no where to be found. I'm using old Frostline down booties with
waterproof overbooties. Any other suggestions w' associated weights?
Anyone compared weight and comfort of running racing flats to reef walkers?

Ken Marlow
Class of '82

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Mon, 05 Jan 2004 21:27:25 PST
Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2004 21:27:25 -0800 (PST)
From: The Mountain Goat 
Subject: Re: [pct-l] PCT start date. missing the ADZPCTKO? 
To: pct mailing list 

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Ok, I appaulgize it was a silly question. But I did want to know the level of importance I should give to the KO.

I think my problem is I wanted to leave a little later than 4/23? to make the Muir, Forester, ect passes easier. So actualy I am planning to go 1 week later. Perhaps I should move my trip 1 week back. (Was going to leave 5/2 and finish about 9/18).

And I was kind of looking forward to seeing my comrads in arms :-)

-The Mt Goat-

StoneDancer1@aol.com wrote:
If you are asking will you be unable to hike the PCT if you don't go the KO? 
Well, of course not. You'll find information on the internet. You'll run 
into people who will give you the information. You'll stumble across the water 
caches. You'll do fine....But..... you'll miss a grand affair if you do not 
show up. It's a chance to meet all the people you'll be passing and passed by 
on the trail, etc. etc. I cannot recommend it highly enough. Some people who 
hike out early, get a ride back to Morena for the KO. If you need a ride back 
to some remote trailhead from the KO, I'll give you a ride myself... unless 
ityou're in Oregon already, har har.


No Way
Ray E
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Subject: RE: [pct-l] Camp Shoes
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I used a pair of Ocean Pacific Skimmers for stream crossings and camp
shoes. I think they're intended for kayaking & such, but they packed
adequately well and they have decent enough tread to hike in for a while
when you have to cross a few wet spots in a row. Sometimes it was just
nice to give my feet a change.

Molasses


------------------------------

Message: 5
Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2004 21:35:06 -0800 (PST)
From: goslowgofar 
Subject: Re: [pct-l] bears & food - and dogs
To: pct-l@mailman.backcountry.net
Message-ID: <20040106053506.84266.qmail@web20022.mail.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Well, I admit I've been deleting almost all of the "bear" posts, but I will comment on a couple of things here.
Yosemite did use bear dogs for a short while and they were somewhat successful. I got to go out one night with the team in Tuolumne Meadows campground, and it was pretty cool to see the bears turn right around as soon as the dogs started after them. The idea was to keep them outside of the camp boundary. I don't remember the exact details about why the program didn't continue, but I think it wasn't cost effective and probably didn't work as well as had been hoped. 
The other comment I wish to make is that Yosemite does do more of the adverse conditioning than in the past. For example, last summer the Rancheria area was closed to backpackers for awhile so the bear techs could do some hazing with rubber bullets. There was a very aggressive sow who bluff charged unsuspecting hikers and she was teaching the method to her cubs. 
Okay, one more comment! The park's wildlife biologist, who has an office next to mine (yes I'm one of those evil NPS employees) thought Monte's suggestion of using a wrist rocket (he made that post a year or two ago?) was a good one! 

And Dave, honestly, not all rangers are bad - but like every law enforcement agency, there are some that are better than others.
Peace,
Katy


Marshall Karon wrote:
On my hike through the High Sierras in August one year (think it was 1997),
I got into Tuolumne Meadows when the Park Service had some bear hunting dogs
on loan to keep the bears away. Didn't hear about then doing that in 1994 or
2000. Wonder if they are still doing it.

Marshall Karon
Portland, OR
m.karon@comcast.net

----- Original Message -----
From: 
To: 

Sent: Friday, January 02, 2004 5:13 PM
Subject: Re: [pct-l] bears & food


> Hey, I agree that bear cans are harder for bears to get into than hung
food.
> My main point is that neither causes a bear to become afraid of humans. As
has
> been posted by others, bears have an incredible sense of smell. They are
> going to detect the fact that you have food no matter what you do with it.
They
> have no way of knowing from a distance whether they will be able to get
your
> food or not. If they are not afraid of you, they are going to enter your
camp to
> investigate. This close proximity is not good for them or us and is not a
> natural thing in the wilderness. They could get hurt by scared hikers
throwing
> rocks, we could get hurt if they get aggressive for some reason. I would
like to
> see the Park Service use methods that have been used in other areas with
> success to condition the bears to not enter our camps, mainly with non
injurious
> methods such as dog harassment. It makes sense to me. I just want the Park
> Officials to have open minds on this. I don't feel that they do when they
simply
> pass new regulations that rely on inexperienced hikers to solve the
problem for
> them. I am hoping that one of the many hundreds of people on this list
knows
> somebody in Park management well enough to influence them enough to at
least
> give the conditioning method a try.
> My experience with Park Officials here in Washington has shown that they
> pretty much do as they want and ignore public input. (the goat fiasco in
the
> Olympics -e-mail me if you want details). I fear that is the case in the
Sierra.
> I don't like the idea of being forced to carry extra weight, but that is
quite
> secondary to the welfare of the bears. I don't think they are on the right
> track and that is why I am speaking out. I guess it boils down to whether
or not
> you think bears should be afraid of us or not. Some people don't want them
to
> be so they can get up close and gawk at them and get close up pictures.
That
> is why they once had open dumps in Yosemite
> Hope this makes sense.
> _______________________________________________


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To: "The Mountain Goat" ,
"pct mailing list" 

References: <20040106052725.14819.qmail@web40906.mail.yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [pct-l] PCT start date. missing the ADZPCTKO? 
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Many think the KO is worthwhile, especially those that help out each year.
Is it important? That's up to you. There are also a few hikers each year who
deliberately choose to NOT start their hike on the KO weekend to avoid
hiking with the pack, although the pack spreads out very quick. Even on the
KO weekend, some start on Friday, Saturday, or Sunday, getting rides back to
the KO each evening.

The KO ends on Sunday April 25. You could certainly hang out at Lake Morena
another couple days if you want. Or just do a few less miles each day the
first couple weeks. Or hike your usual pace and take a couple long town
stops along the way.

AsABat

> Ok, I appaulgize it was a silly question. But I did want to know the level
of importance I should give to the KO.
>
> I think my problem is I wanted to leave a little later than 4/23? to make
the Muir, Forester, ect passes easier. So actualy I am planning to go 1 week
later. Perhaps I should move my trip 1 week back. (Was going to leave 5/2
and finish about 9/18).


------------------------------

Message: 6
Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2004 01:01:17 EST
From: Lonetrail@aol.com
Subject: Re: [pct-l] Mars
To: pct-l@backcountry.net
Message-ID: <196.246a1c16.2d2ba92d@aol.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"

Hello

After seeing the pictures of the bare surface of Mars I realized it must have 

=== message truncated ===

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