[pct-l] hardest climb, ice ax

[sierra_marmot at yahoo.com (John Randall)]

Hardest climb(s): perhaps least rewarding might be better, 1) hot, dusty, neverending, miserable--San Joaquin River to Seldon Pass.  The trail has been beaten to death by horses.  Poop, flies, no water, mosquitoes.  Bummer of a hike.  2) Mono Creek Crossing at Quail Meadows to Silver Pass.  This is a very hard hike, neverending, also unrewarding, dangerous creek crossing.
 
Ice Ax--the south side of Forester, the north side of Glen, and the north side of Mather are the only places you have to worry.  I could have died three years ago at Mather.  I tried to cross the pass (sneaks, ice, etc) early AM and fell.  No ice ax, but I managed to grab a fingerhold on the implant my wooden staff made into the ice (after it snapped in two and went clattering down the hill).  Saved a 700-foot fall.  Stupid, but no more.  After 7/15 none of these are a problem.
 
john

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Today's Topics:

1. Re: RE: Photographs of the PCT (Edmond Meinfelder)
2. Re: RE: Photographs of the PCT (Bighummel@aol.com)
3. I dont understand ! (Norma)
4. ?????, (Norma)
5. PCT Photos (Paul Magnanti)
6. Unsafe river crossing under belay (Campy)
7. San Felipe Hills, Calif. Sec A, Blue Tent Found
(Gregory L. Colvin)
8. re dogmatism (CMountainDave@aol.com)
9. RE: San Felipe Hills, Calif. Sec A, Water Cache
(Gregory L. Colvin)
10. Re: dogmatism (Ben Armstrong)
11. Ice Axe Lengths (MONTE ANN DODGE)
12. re dogmatism (Hiker)
13. Re: PCT Class of 2004 Gear (StoneDancer1@aol.com)
14. FW: [pct-l] PCT Class of 2004 Gear (Jerry Goller)
15. Re: re dogmatism (John Mertes)
16. Re: RE: San Felipe Hills, Calif. Sec A, Water Cache (AsABat)
17. Re: re dogmatism (Jim McEver)
18. Re: 5 gal bucket (Ken Marlow)
19. Re: Gear List (The Mountain Goat)
20. Re: Gear List (dude)
21. Re: (no subject) (dude)
22. hardest climb? (Judson Brown)
23. Re: hardest climb? (Slyatpct@aol.com)
24. Re: hardest climb? (Christopher Willett)
25. FW: [pct-l] 5 gal bucket (Jon Lovejoy)
26. Re: hardest climb? (Slyatpct@aol.com)
27. RE: Gear List (Jon Lovejoy)
28. Re: re dogmatism (CMountainDave@aol.com)
29. RE: hardest climb? (Kent Ryhorchuk)
30. ice ax (CMountainDave@aol.com)
31. Re: ice ax (Slyatpct@aol.com)
32. socks (Steve Setzer)
33. RE: socks (Jennifer Holliday)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 13:52:16 -0700
From: Edmond Meinfelder 
Subject: Re: [pct-l] RE: Photographs of the PCT
To: pct-l@backcountry.net
Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20040112134856.01722680@mail.mydogmeg.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed

At 12:35 PM 1/12/2004 -0800, you wrote:
>Does anyone know of any sites that specialize in photographs of the PCT.


Here are two:

http://www.artofthetrail.com/index.html
http://www.thruhikers.com/photopost/showgallery.php?cat=504

Tangent 


------------------------------

Message: 2
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 16:18:36 EST
From: Bighummel@aol.com
Subject: Re: [pct-l] RE: Photographs of the PCT
To: pct-l@mailman.backcountry.net
Message-ID: <103.3d0b707d.2d34692c@aol.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"

The PCTA is starting a youth outreach program with the purpose of "planting 
seeds" into youth wilderness programs near the PCT to increase public 
awareness, appreciation and interest in the trail. "PCT Ambassadors" will periodically 
give talks to these youth groups up and down the trail. A pilot program is 
just now in the earliest stages of planning. 

As such I am seeking photographs of the PCT that capture its essence to put 
into a "Best of the PCT" presentation. If you have particularly great shots of 
the trail, scenery, people, equipment, mud, mosquitos, the heat, the trials, 
the ecstacy, the trail towns, resupply messes, etc., etc. please consider 
donating them to this cause. 

Send us your photograph/s in JPEG format at a resolution no higher than 1024 
by 768 pixels to me at this email address or to strider@pct77.org. 

Thank you,

Greg "Strider" Hummel

------------------------------

Message: 3
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 13:27:58 -0800
From: "Norma" 
Subject: [pct-l] I dont understand !
To: 

Message-ID: <000c01c3d952$f5421440$b15aef41@compaq>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

What are you asking me ?

------------------------------

Message: 4
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 13:29:59 -0800
From: "Norma" 
Subject: [pct-l] ?????,
To: 

Message-ID: <002101c3d953$3d367d40$b15aef41@compaq>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

Just what are you asking of me ?

------------------------------

Message: 5
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 13:52:07 -0800 (PST)
From: Paul Magnanti 

Subject: [pct-l] PCT Photos
To: pct-l@backcountry.net
Message-ID: <20040112215207.6307.qmail@web13910.mail.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

I have a collection of photos at:

http://gallery.backcountry.net/pmagspct02

Clcik on the pics once for a larger view, click on
again for the full view.

Greg, you are more than welcome to use any of the
photos that you think may work.

Mags


=====
************************************************************
The true harvest of my life is intangible.... a little stardust caught, a portion of the rainbow I have clutched
--Thoreau

------------------------------

Message: 6
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 14:20:29 -0800
From: Campy 
Subject: [pct-l] Unsafe river crossing under belay
To: Hiker , pct-l@backcountry.net
Cc: Campydog 
Message-ID: <87BE0B34-454D-11D8-9E2F-0003930ECFD8@verizon.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed

Hiker wrote:

There have been MANY cases of a rope causing the death by drowning 
of the
person fording a swift creek by pulling and holding the forder 
under. So
many in fact that I was taught it is generally accepted that the forder
must have a quick release on the rope attachment.

This is very true, but down in the fine detail, worse than death by 
drowning. Years ago a fairly scientific treatise pointed out that if a 
person secured by a waist loop was swept off his or her feet by the 
river current, the person would become acutely bent at the waist by the 
water's force. The pull of the rope on the person's mid-section (held 
underwater as earlier claimed) actually causes both kidneys to rupture, 
most likely before actual drowning has occurred. This has happened with 
patients who have been rescued prior to death by drowning, but only to 
soon die of internal injuries.
==^====================
Campy
Central California Trail Coordinator
"Home of the High Sierra Trail Gorillas"
Pacific Crest Trail Association
Bishop CA Tel.: 760-872-2338
Email: tap "Reply"

http://www.trailprojects.com or
http://www.trailvolunteer.com click on PCT

"Time spent doing trail work shall not be deducted from your life!"


------------------------------

Message: 7
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 14:50:08 -0800
From: "Gregory L. Colvin" 
Subject: [pct-l] San Felipe Hills, Calif. Sec A, Blue Tent Found
To: 

Message-ID: 
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

We just hiked Section A, S to N, Jan. 2-10, and found a blue Coleman pup tent in a stuff bag, w/gray poles & yellow stakes, left under a bush at the sandy wash nice camping area about 9 miles in. We left it there, not knowing whether it was intended for someone's return or emergency use. Or, if someone forgot it...now you know where it is. Greg, Chris, Jared, David

Gregory L. Colvin
Silk, Adler & Colvin
235 Montgomery Street, Suite 1220
San Francisco, CA 94104
415/421-7555 (phone)
415/421-0712 (fax)
colving@silklaw.com
________________________________
The information in this e-mail message and any attachments may be privileged, confidential, and protected from disclosure. If you are not the intended recipient, any use, dissemination, distribution, or copying of this transmission is strictly prohibited. If you think that you have received this e-mail message in error, please e-mail the sender at colving@silklaw.com, and delete all copies of this message and its attachments, if any. Thank you.



------------------------------

Message: 8
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 17:51:16 EST
From: CMountainDave@aol.com
Subject: [pct-l] re dogmatism
To: pct-l@backcountry.net
Message-ID: <156.2b788233.2d347ee4@aol.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"

>>>>I will make another dogmatic statement: "Leaving Kennedy Meadows in a 
normal snow year without an Ice Axe, and the knowledge how to use it, is 
risking death."<<<<<< 


It really serves no purpose to make that statement because, just as in the 
past, the vast majority of PCT hikers are carrying an ice ax for the first time 
with, at best, minimal training. So something other than experience is going 
to come into play in order to cross a steep snow slope: 
The famous Canadian guide Conrad Cain's number one rule was to never show 
fear. He took many totally inexperienced people on hundreds of first ascents in 
the Canadian Rockies and never had an accident. He did not tell them, "if you 
climb this mountain without the proper training you risk death." Instead he 
psyched them into believing in themselves. He worked at building their self 
confidence, not through training but with attitude. That is what made 
inexperienced people safe
Mr. Cain's alter ego is a guide with what is known as the Messiah Complex 
and there are plenty of them around. He is forever reminding his clients of just 
how dangerous the situation is, deliberately making them afraid, telling them 
they risked death by simply being where they are. Why? Because the clients 
then look to him for salvation. He want's them to believe that his knowledge 
and experience is the only thing that is going to get them through this ordeal 
safely. He becomes their Messiah.
I've observed this phenomena several times with boyfriend/girlfriend 
relationships where the guy is asking over and over and over again" are you okay" to 
his girl friend. He thinks he is coming across as a really caring guy, but the 
implication is that there is some reason that she might not be okay and that 
he has the solution. Meanwhile I feel like yelling at the guy after the 101st 
"are you okay" (and she probably does too) "why the hell shouldn't she be 
okay? Don't you have any confidence in her at all?" 
Conrad Cain's other rules, in case you are interested, were to pay 
special attention to the weakest member of the party, be able to come up with a 
white lie and tell it convincingly if the need arises and finally, to tell 
someone off when they needed to be told off. 
If you want to question what I say, that's fine. If I'm wrong I am wrong. 
But don't quote me out of context. I agreed that roped creek crossings were 
dangerous and that I personally would avoid them (I won't say never). I think I 
properly inferred that an inexperienced person should NOT cross a creek using 
a rope without rudely saying "boy that's dumb!" It didn't come across that 
way in your selected post
Finally here is one scenario where a rope might be used: Someone can't 
swim. They are crossing a SLOW MOVING murky creek and they cannot tell how deep 
it is. They are worried about stepping into a hole and drowning. If they do 
they can pull on the rope to get back onto firm ground. 
Time to move on. David C


------------------------------

Message: 9
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 14:56:42 -0800
From: "Gregory L. Colvin" 
Subject: [pct-l] RE: San Felipe Hills, Calif. Sec A, Water Cache
To: 

Message-ID: 
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

We passed thru on Jan. 8-9, and found that the water cache now has only about 2 quarts left (about halfway thru the Hills, at the jeep road coming up from the east, maintained by the San Diego Sierra Club according to the Schaffer guide). Thanks. Greg, Chris, Jared, David

Gregory L. Colvin
Silk, Adler & Colvin
235 Montgomery Street, Suite 1220
San Francisco, CA 94104
415/421-7555 (phone)
415/421-0712 (fax)
colving@silklaw.com
________________________________
The information in this e-mail message and any attachments may be privileged, confidential, and protected from disclosure. If you are not the intended recipient, any use, dissemination, distribution, or copying of this transmission is strictly prohibited. If you think that you have received this e-mail message in error, please e-mail the sender at colving@silklaw.com, and delete all copies of this message and its attachments, if any. Thank you.



------------------------------

Message: 10
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 15:12:39 -0800 (PST)
From: Ben Armstrong 
Subject: Re: [pct-l] dogmatism
To: Hiker , pct-l@backcountry.net
Message-ID: <20040112231239.24688.qmail@web21003.mail.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Just for the record, I didn't write the quote below. I quoted CMountainDave.

Providing wilderness advice is a risky venture. Know your audience.

Ben


Hiker wrote:
At 08:49 AM 1/12/04, Ben Armstrong wrote:
>"Every situation is unique and every situation involving chance involves 
>decisions of the
>moment, not rules"

Yes, this is absolutely true, and a long post explaining the pros and cons 
of using a rope belay and explaining technique would have been more 
technically accurate, but we live in a "sound-byte" culture where a short 
and concise message is most likely to be read. Especially one where a 
mishap would likely lead to death.

There have been MANY cases of a rope causing the death by drowning of the 
person fording a swift creek by pulling and holding the forder under. So 
many in fact that I was taught it is generally accepted that the forder 
must have a quick release on the rope attachment.

Since most thru hikers are not going to have the correct equipment, nor the 
experience using it, a short reply saying it is a bad thing to do makes 
more sense to me.

I will make another dogmatic statement: "Leaving Kennedy Meadows in a 
normal snow year without an Ice Axe, and the knowledge how to use it, is 
risking death."

Use the delete key if I offend you.


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Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 15:27:01 -0800 (PST)
From: 

Subject: Re: [pct-l] How much food a day do you need?
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For reference ...

I started off eating really healthy snacks, but that practice went
down the shitter after i learned that i had to get most of my snack
resupplies out of gas station convenience stores. (i was totally
sick of eating this stuff by the end of the trail) Buying snacks out
of convenience stores most of the time also blew my monthly snack
budget since I had originally used grocery store costs to develop it.
Oh yeah, I didn't eat many cliff / powerbars on the trip. I was
sick of them before i even started. The only ones I could stomach
were those dense little calorie bombs from Pemmican.

Somewhere in the archives of this list is some pretty good info on
major grocery store resupply points. I'd keep that info handy when
it comes to putting together resupply boxes. For any resupply point
without a decent grocery store, I'd be sure to throw in some "special
snacks" to give yourself some variety.

Ok, back to the orginal question ...

This is a relative example of what i ate most of the time. 

Breakfast
- 2 cups of high calorie granola (6 varieties, 400+ cal per cup)
- organic powdered milk (http://www.organicvalley.com/)
- i bought all of this in advance from a local health food store

Midmorning snack
- 1 package poptarts
- fig newtons, breakfast bars, or breakfast danish

Lunch
- PowerMush (my own specially created high-cal dehydrated food) OR
- high calorie bagel with lots of PB (big "everything" bagels are
great, a couple of english muffins work great too)
- some sort of chips / crackers

Midafternoon snack
- 1 candy bar
- various cookies / crackers / nuts

Lateafternoon snack
- various cookies / crackers / nuts
- or sometimes a PB sandwich (great late afternoon snack)

Dinner
- PowerMush

Midnight snack
- 1 candy bar (usually a snickers)


Other relevant info ...

- Hot weather significantly reduced my normal insatiable appetite for
sweets and increased my desire for savory snacks

- Melted candy bars in hot weather weren't very enjoyable. For some
reason the taste of the chocolate changed after constantly being
melted and resolidified.

- Cold weather sent my desire for sweets through the roof.


I hope that helps
-Teflon




--- Slyatpct@aol.com wrote:
> Normal day
> - Breakfast: 800-900 cal
> - Midmorning snack: 600-700 cal
> - Lunch: 800-1000 cal
> - Midafternoon snack: 600-700 cal
> - Late afternoon snack: 200-300 cal
> - Dinner: 800-1000 cal
> - Midnight snack: 200-300 cal
> 
> Could you pass on just what you were eating?
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Sly
> 


------------------------------

Message: 11
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 15:33:40 -0800
From: "MONTE ANN DODGE" 
Subject: [pct-l] Ice Axe Lengths
To: "pct-l" 

Message-ID: 
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

Perfect ice axe length for the PCT hiker? One that fits flat in the palm of your hand when touching the floor. ( Real world!!)
Advantages of a short ice axe are saving of weight ( And maybe climbing a frozen waterfall while frontpointing for a feature shot for Outside magazine!)
Disadvantages are several. Shorts handles don't self belay as well as longer handles. Also less control of axe( Glissading) longer handle has more control. Shorter axes are more likely to end you in your ribs during fall. Walking download with a short ice axe sucks!! Esp. in soft snow. On Rainier, short axes dangle worthlessly as they come downhill and don't help to prevent slipping whil a longer axe becoming a third leg and quite helpful. ( Same applies in Sierras comedown Forester Pass and others)
With all the new light ice axes today, even a longer axe is quite light.
>From walkinglarry@yahoo.com Mon Jan 12 17:57:14 2004
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Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 15:56:40 -0800 (PST)
From: larry hillberg 
Subject: Re: [pct-l] Gear List

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