Re: [pct-l] Bic Stoves

[Robert Bedichek <robertb@transmeta.com>]

On Sun, 7 Mar 1999 Montedodge@aol.com wrote:

> Butane stoves are just glorified Bic Lighters with grills on top. These are

i realize that the poster likes to bait people here.  i'd like to add some
facts to the excellent responses already made.

1. propane and butane have significantly higher energy density than white
   gas, about 35 btu's per gram as opposed to about 25 for "coleman fuel".
   that means that you don't have as much weight on your back for the 
   amount of potential heat energy you are carrying.

2. everest expeditions use propane/butane (i've seen their used gear for
   sale in namche bazaar at 12,500', about 15 miles from the west buttress,
   and along with a lot of other sturdy high altitude gear are left over 
   propane/butane stoves and canisters.)

   so along with the "good for girl scouts, etc.", please add "everest
   expeditions".

3. the hottest burning backpacker stove that i know of is the titanium 
   primus.  i have one and it is much hotter than any MSR i've used.  in
   fact, i sometimes boil water w/o full throttle.  with a small pot, the
   flames are so hot it can make it a little difficult to handle the pot.

4. as others have pointed out, temperatures on the pct may-octover, even
   in the worst conditions don't prevent propane/butane stoves from
   working.

let me add that i have nothing against all the other stoves.  i'm not
telling anyone what kind of stove they should take.  "hike your own hike",
etc.

some general comments about people giving advice:

1. when someone says "you are crazy to do X", i turn off.  if they instead
   say "i've tried X or seen someone do X and the outcome was Y" (where Y
   is not good), i take it more seriously.

2. different people have different levels of acceptable risk and that
   will results in different decisions.

3. people who cast blanket criticisms on ray jardine's book haven't read
   it.  people who have read the book realize that jardine was not making
   an unqualified and simple statement that all hikers should carry
   eight pound packs.  he was showing how he and his wife did the trail
   and how others might learn something from it.

4. people who have hiked the whole pct in one season tend to favor light
   packs.

5. people who take a lot of gear (perhaps for the good reason that they
   need it to achieve their safety/goal/comfort tradeoff) have an emotional
   investment in their decision.  this leads a few of them to criticize
   others for making different decisions.  i recall climbing three
   fingered jack (in oregon) w/o helmets and getting "attitude" from
   some group climbers who were all wearing helmets.  this was a climb
   where there was minimal exposure to rock fall.  it wasn't crazy to 
   either have or not have helmets.   it was a personal decision.
   and for a group it made more sense to use helmets.

   i have seen plenty of people unprepared for extreme situations (e.g. winter
   camping in upstate n.y.) and i've only made a (friendly) comment once.  
   that was when a father was using unsafe rock climbing technique with
   children. the children were correctly terrified.  other climbers were
   also distressed by what they saw.  together, we gently suggested
   to the unsafe leader/father that he not do what he was doing.

6. just as there is a risk of needing something you don't have, there is
   also a risk in taking something you don't need.  jardine makes this
   point well.  

personally, i found ray's book interesting.  like a number of people who
have read the book, i have lowered my pack weight, but i don't go nearly
as far as jardine himself does.  i'm sure jardine would say "that's great,
glad you found my book useful".

i'd like to thank folks on this list for some great advice.

	rob bedichek
	http://www.arctic.org/~robert




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