[pct-l] deja vu

[bjensen4@juno.com (Birgitte Jensen)]

   I've been following the latest zip-war with dropped jaw, especially
the posts mentioning my name, as you can imagine... For awhile Brick had
me going: I began to wonder if I really HAD said in my post that zips
stoves are forbidden-for-use practically everywhere - because they are
fires. Imagine my amazement (and relief <g>) to find I had saved the darn
thing and reread:

>     This means that when there's high fire danger - not usually in
early spring in the >Sierra, but some sites restrict fires year-round...
- or anyplace/time campfires are >prohibited, you can't use a Zip at all;
when fires are restricted to exisiting fire-rings, >that's where the zip
has to be used, etc etc. There are places where zips are "banned"
>altogether, even beyond Fire Danger warning zones: check with FS office,
ranger >stations, etc., for the area you'll be travelling, and get the
skivvy on what's permitted for >that particular time-of-year, etc....

   That was the entirety of my "advice". It dealt in the most general
terms (using language in a common-usage context) with zips and Fire
Danger restrictions, as well as particular local discretionary policies -
nothing else - and I stand by ever word. Nothing's really been posted
that contradicts this, and I'm not happy to read that it's been used as
an excuse to trash the FS, either. I hate being repeatedly made the focus
of these squabbles by Brick; the Ranger Jensen-nonsense Brick is
beginning to post regularly is getting to be a real annoyance, too. 
    Here's the rest of my original post (so I won't be accused of
"creative editing"). It's non-legalistic, common-sensical information
given to me in person by FS supervisors in San Jacinto, San Bernardino,
Inyo Co districts. I would've added Los Padres, but it didn't seem to fit
the PCT bill... There are serious wildfires fueled by Santa Ana winds in
some of those places now, and a statement that wood-burning stoves with
fans can/should be used routinely as fossil-fuel backpacking stoves
seemed particularly ill-advised. Furthermore, any suggestion that current
information given out at a ranger station vis a vis fire danger (which is
what I urged in my original post - and urge now) is ILLEGAL (!) and may
be disregarded, is irresponsible.

>     You didn't ask, but some folks demand the "reasoning" behind
restrictions before >they feel  a rule applies to them personally <g>,
so.... Wood-burning stoves have the >same problem as campfires [I should
have said wood-burning campfires] with 1) >creating sparks - the Zip fan
is kinda like a battery-operated "breeze", which enhances >wildfire
danger, as we all know 2) not being able to instantly extinguish the
burning fuel >(no flick of a knob to turn the thing instantly totally-off
if a "problem", ahem, develops 3) >the fuel isn't totally-combusted, thus
leaving messy and (more important) possibly >smoldering left-over fuel in
the form of hot ash, coals, blah blah. There's the possibility >of burn
scars being left from the fire, and not everybody is gonna tidy up
zip-fire >residue and pack it out, etc; that'd an aesthetic concern as
well as a potential fire hazard >which gas stoves don't bring to the
backcountry.
>     After all, like you said, the basic idea of a Zip is that it's a
mini-campfire with its own >bellows; you gather fuel for it from the
forest floor (like any other [again, should've >added "wood-burning"]
campfire), build it/tend it like any other campfire, and thus save >the
weight/expense of having to buy fuel at a sporting goods store and lug it
in your >pack - tho as you also mentioned, you can't even avoid carrying
zip "fuel" in certain >areas or in inclement weather, groan....
>    A Zip "stove" on a JMT-hike might prove to be one of those
hassels-to-save-hassle

I agree that if I were speaking in legalese (which I wasn't) I should
have consistantly referred to Zips as wood-burning fires, and not used
the word campfires, which sometimes can have a legal definiton as well as
common-usage. The INFORMATION I gave was entirely-accurate, however, and
the advice to check on fire danger/zips before a backcountry trip should
not be questioned - please.       bj

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