[pct-l] Re: Campfire permit

[david135 at pc3i.com (David Anderson)]

Hi AsABat,

AsABat wrote:

 > Do you have a campfire permit? If you have a wilderness permit,
 > including a thru-hiker permit, you do.

Can you provide a reference for this statement? I've not heard this 
before. I might add that the employees of the many Forest Service and 
Bureau of Land Management offices where I've procured my "California 
Campfire Permits" are unaware of this. I'd like to enlighten them. One 
should never pass up an oppurtunity to be smarter than the spouse! (BLM 
employee)

 > Do you know what you have to do? You are expected to "Use shovel to
 > clear an area at least 10 feet in diameter (local regulations vary).
 > Scrape away all grass or needles and duff down to mineral soil." Now
 > most of us do not carry shovels, but it's not hard to find an area
 > already cleared.

You forgot to mention that you are also required to extinguish the fire 
using the "shovel." Hmmmm. What is the legal definition of a shovel 
anyway? I might add at this point that a "campfire" is defined as "a 
fire which is used for cooking, personal warmth, lighting... not within 
a building, mobile home or living accommodation mounted on a motor 
vehicle. (Ref. California Campfire Permit: R5-FS-5100-54 (revised Apr. 
1993). My interpretation of this document is that any food heating 
device, other than electric or the more esoteric chemical reactive 
devices is a "campfire." How exactly do you extinguish your "cat-stove" 
with a "shovel" anyway.

 > The California Health and Safety Code (13007-13009) is very clear that
 > whoever causes a fire is liable for all damages and costs of putting
 > it out. If you mess up, you pay.

It's not that clear to me (but then I'm not a lawyer). Here's a link to 
the referenced code:

http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/waisgate?WAISdocID=6958251162+0+0+0&WAISaction=retrieve

It would appear that the plaintiff (that would be the government) has to 
prove, by a preponderance of evidence, blah blah blah, your guilt. I'm 
guessing civil not criminal standards here. Negligence or violation of 
law must be proven against the person starting the fire. Perhaps not 
having a "California Campfire Permit" is a violation of law sufficient 
to collect the damages. All this law stuff gives me a headache, so I 
decided years ago, to spend the 10 minutes or so and just get the 
"Campfire Permit." It's available at any Forest Service or Bureau of 
Land Management office. It's probably available at most California State 
Forestry Offices as well. It's free, but your signature makes it tough 
claim ignorance. It states, in part, "You are liable for the cost of 
suppression and damages caused by any wildfire that starts through your 
negligence." I might add that I agree with your statement "If you mess 
up, you pay." Perhaps a liabilty policy should be manditory for anyone 
entering any public building, facility or land. It wouldn't really be 
any different than auto insurance, would it?

 > Sixty of my customers lost their homes in last year's fire, and two
 > lost their lives.

It's unfortunate that anyone should loose homes let alone their lives to 
a preventable cause. I have to wonder though, how many of your 
"customers" had taken the basic precaution of having automated external 
fire suppression systems.  Were any of these homes in fire risk areas? 
How many had ponds and generator powered pumps? Fire is a fact of life, 
no matter where you live. Those that choose to live in high-risk areas 
(or low-risk areas for that matter) have made their choices and should 
have to live with them. No sense whining about it. Although I live in a 
"low risk" area (irrigated alfalfa on 2.8 sides, paved road on 1 side, 
we nevertheless had a wildfire less than 200 yds away on the available 
0.2 (about 18 degrees) exposed side last fall. We did not have to 
activate our $35K fire suppression system to save our $20K house, but it 
was available if needed. Of course our loss would have been 
substantially more than $20K if we'd lost the house. What is the value 
of the spouse, myself, critters, memorabilia, business software I've 
written anyway? Those that laughed at me for installing a fire 
suppression system 3 years ago aren't laughing so much now. A few have 
started to take "fire risk" seriously. As a bonus, I get to rib them 
every Friday over beers. It's a hoot! But, we were lucky. We had the 
local fire department on scene within 20 minutes of the fire starting 
(lightning). Running irrigation and a paved road on 3.8 sides were no 
doubt positive factors, leaving only a very narrow wedge of fire headed 
toward the house. The actual fire front was only 30 yds wide at the 
first protective barrier. The 1st protective barrier on our exposed side 
was a piece of land 125 yds deep plowed under twice during the summer to 
prevent burnable growth.

 > Lots of info from the California Department of Forestry here:
 > http://www.fire.ca.gov/php/education_content/downloads/campfiretips.pdf

This URL which you provided would seem to contradict your previous 
statement with regard to how large an area needs to be cleared for a 
"campfire."

For example: the diagram on page 1 clearly shows the space to be cleared 
is 20 ft. + the diameter of the fire. That would be 20.5 feet for most 
commonly used stoves. You claimed 10 feet was sufficient.

blah, blah, blah

My advice: be careful with fire and try to stay out of the NEWS.

Disclaimer: I am not an attorney, nor do I play one on TV. I do hold a 
Bachelor's degree (majors in Chemistry and Mathematics with Minor in 
Physics) and Master's Degrees in Computer Science and Business 
Administration. I like to think that I am not particularly ignorant, 
illiterate or paranoid. You, as always, must draw your own conclusions.

regards to all,

ol' goat (pct 82, pct in parts and pieces 2001-2003)