[pct-l] Re: New On-Trail List?

[john@frozenpoodle.com (John Brennan)]

Reports of this thread's death have been greatly exaggerated.

Sheesh.  What happened to hike your own hike?  I'll be the first to admit
that I've not hiked the PCT before.  I don't know what the, shall we say,
trail-mail (OK -the trail grapevine), is like.  Maybe the list I proposed is
superfluous.  I'm certainly willing to listen to the wisdom of those who
have hiked the trail.  I'll still have my tools, which include some
electronic gadgets, with me or in my bounce box.
The discussion has led me to think in more detail about what might really be
on the proposed list.
I don't think there will be a lot of volume (5-10 a week??).  Most [except
those with satellite phones (not me)] will be out of email touch for a week
or more, so time-sensitive stuff, as Sly pointed out, won't be too relevant,
unless the timing is perfect.  If one hiker wants to contact another via
email, they will do it directly.  A broadcast like, "If you see Mr. Hiker,
tell him we'll meet him in Portland," with the presumption that M. Hiker
doesn't have email, could be quite useful, but it sounds like the trail
grapevine would have it covered.  The list could be an experiment that fails
(even before it sees the light of day).

I don't have the energy before I depart to untangle all of the issues that
have come up.  I thought I was proposing a Yes/No question.  I should have
known better.  I'm happy to have raised the issue and hope this list becomes
a reality some day (if only to prove that it's not useful).  I might even be
willing to be one of the moderators in future years.
I've included some of my thoughts below so they can be part of the archive,
should this discussion come up again.

>Brick Robbins brick@fastpack.com wrote:
>I already gave some feedback. You need a TEAM of moderators.
Sorry about not acknowledging your feedback.  Too many balls in the air
these days.
I think it needs to be as easy for the moderators as possible:  editing
feels hard and unnecessary.  I think the lag time of editing would be
another reason to not have moderators edit.
I also agree that it should not be on one of the big list servers like
yahoogroups.  A setup like PCT-L seems like it would be easiest.  I assume
the PCT-ONTRAIL-L would have an archive like PCT-L.
I cc'd the PCTA because I thought they might be interested in supporting
hikers in this way.  I know nothing about their history of supporting or not
supporting email lists.  They may be weary of committing staff time to
unknown amounts of time.

I agree with "David hiking PCNST in bits pcnst@oakapple.net" when he wrote:
>...Three moderators sounds about right.
>Any one moderator can approve a posting,
>which goes out immediately upon approval.
>Anybody can subscribe, and anybody can post,
>but the moderators only approve content essential to people
>who ARE, or are ABOUT to be, ON THE TRAIL
>PCT-L should be a member, in order to receive all approved postings to
>PCT-ONTRAIL, to avoid the need to subscribe to both
and I agree again:
> It's [hiking the PCT] still pretty hard.

Ronald Moak ronm@fallingwater.com wrote:
>Anyway if you do setup this "On-Trail" list remember that information that
>Is relevant to one may be background noise to someone else. Moderated lists
can lead to
>bruised egos if not addressed correctly.
True.  This should be addressed in the Charter.

Sly Slyatpct@aol.com wrote:
>  I wouldn't think the traffic would be so heavy you'd need moderators.
If there's a clear statement about what the list (as in list-serv, not as in
email group created in an email program or interface) exists for, then, I
agree, I don't think the traffic would be too heavy.  But somebody's got to
be able to yank the occasional spammer, quell banter, and keep the list
on-topic.

Strider Bighummel@aol.com wrote:
> [Those] hiking this year or in future years have it damn easy
I know I am not hiking the same trail you hiked.  I know some aspects are
easy compared to '77.  If I'm enjoying the wilderness, and you enjoyed the
wilderness, then we both got what we wanted.  I'm eying the CDT so that I
can have a taste of what the PCT might have been like 'in the day.'  In some
ways, it's a cakewalk now.  In other ways, it's just the same.  The proposed
list is just a little more frosting on the cake.

> The hugh amount of information and advice avialable to you current and
future hikers is entirely sufficient to get you there
I know I have sufficient information to get me there.  I'm just trying to
improve on sufficient.  I don't think this hike *has* to be hard.  I know
there will be parts that will be hard and no email list is going to save me.
If I wanted things easy, I'd watch TV this spring and summer.  I'm certainly
not trying to start a war.  We may have our own definitions of what the hike
is, but we're on the same side, remember?  We like to hike. Far.

>I put it to you; what is the fun of going out into the wilderness if you
know
>what time it is to the second, what the weather will be for the next minute
>to week, what the trail conditions are over the next 100 miles updated
every
>hour, and you never, ever come even close to getting lost?
I think you are exaggerating the potential effectiveness of this email list.
Perhaps you are speaking of the whole technology jumble you referenced in
your email.  Even then, I know again, the list is not going to save me.
I'll take a wrong turn.  I may make a miscalculation about water.  I may
miss hooking up with another hiker.  I come back to my example of Flyin'
Brian's report, via his Dad, that the trail was clear of snow. That was good
information.  I was willing to trust that enough to leave my ice axe behind.

Ken Powers kdpo@pacbell.net wrote:
>Hike your own hike. Listen to what others tell you, then decide if you
>believe it.
I agree and wonder (not to Ken, but to naysayers), how is that information
different because someone got it to you via email?

Nathaniel Strauss nstrauss@bigfoot.com wrote:
>It sounds like some people might like to benefit from a mailing list like
>this. For all others, don't subscribe and your precious wilderness
>experience will not be ruined.
Yes.  It would be optional to join this list.  Frankly, I think it could be
an interesting list, and the winter volume would be quite low.

>I would trust an e-mail that quotes a public announcement by the
>USFS infinitely more than an offhand statement by a weekend hiker.
I don't know that I'd go that far...

I acknowledge that Strider has a lot of support for his views about the
uselessness of the proposed list and the contradiction of technology on the
trail.  I also got a sense of the "where does it stop?" (information,
technology, women wearing slacks, men wearing skirts) concerns.

Proposed Charter:
[To be filled out at a later date, sometime after lasting peace in the
Middle East.]

I'm not planning on taking this proposal any further.  Thanks for an
interesting discussion.  I hope the lines we've drawn can be erased.

I wonder if there was this kind of reaction when people switched from
candles and lanterns to flashlights?
I also wonder if I'll be the first in recorded history to be chased out of
the ADZPCTKO.  Maybe I'd have to email for help.

John B./Cupcake
Last day of work: April 19
Leave Santa Cruz: April 24
Start PCT: April 26