[pct-l] Ethical goose down?

Sun May 22 22:11:53 CDT 2016

Okay, let's talk about Petroleum and carbon footprints:

Were you aware that meat and meat products have one of the highest Carbon
Footprints?  As a vegan, I could own a plane, and a huge SUV to belch
petroleum fumes all over the world and would still leave a smaller Carbon
Footprint than someone who routinely eats meat, consumes meat products but
rides a bicycle.

It takes 26 lbs of grain to produce one lb of meat.  This can vary from
animal to animal slightly.  So this involves all the production, water and
petroleum costs to produce 26 lbs. of grain.  Then, you also have to get
the animals to market, slaughter and to the grocery store.  One pound of
grain has about 1600 kcals.  So a vegan only eats the equivalent of
approximately 2 lbs of grain (or plants) a day.  Therefore, the food for my
entire day has a similar carbon footprint as 1/13th of a lb of meat.  Doing
the math, I think that equals about one ounce of cheese, one egg or a
small, thin deli slice of meat for your sandwich.

Furthermore, our rainforests are being decimated every year to make room
for cattle and farm animals.  Millions of acres are being destroyed.
Historically, humans never ate as much meat as we eat today.  The world
with our booming population growth is starting to adopt our voracious
appetite for meat.  Removing our rainforests is having a devastating effect
on our ozone layers and global warming as trees have a huge capacity to
buffer our Carbon output.  Eating meat and consuming meat products are
speeding up the process of global warming.

It doesn't stop there!  You can see factory farms and slaughterhouses from
space!  They leave huge cesspools of waste and excrement. This contaminates
our water supplies.  Because we feed our animals huge quantities of
hormones and antibiotics, we are also putting this into our water system.
The huge animal use of antibiotics is creating a super bug that cannot even
be killed by our current antibiotics.  We are breeding a superbug that
could potentially wipe out the human race.  The industry HAS to use
antibiotics as there is no other way to cram thousands of animals into a
tiny space and not get sick.

Factory farms are far removed from the "Charlotte's Web" version of
farming.  Money is the bottom line, which has forced animals into a cruel
tortuous existence.  It is now a horrible, horrible industry!  According to
regulation, a chicken only needs a 1' square area to live.  This is absurd!

If you wish to limit your petroleum consumption and lessen your carbon
footprint the most dramatic way is a vegan or plant based lifestyle.  There
is just no way to remain "smug" about your petroleum consumption and carbon
footprint if you eat meat.

Diet Plan

On Sat, May 21, 2016 at 8:46 AM, Gail <vanvelzer at charter.net> wrote:

>  Has anyone met anyone who has even eaten a goose? Eating a goose in
> > > America is a rare event. There are no restaurants that I know of that
> > sell it.
>
> I am responding to the above question.  I have eaten goose.  In fact, it
> was a tradition in my family, every Christmas, to have duck or
> goose....mostly goose.  I can tell you it's very fatty, but if you lift it
> out of the pan when it's cooking, it will be less greasy.  It is also very
> good, very similar to the dark meat on a turkey.
>
> I also traveled in China a fair amount and I saw geese hanging
> everywhere!  I suppose it depends on what part of China you go to, but it
> was a staple there.  A lot of our down does come from China, so my
> assumption is that the down is coming from the meat industry.
>
> I do have a problem with the Pro-Animal people who wouldn't dare make an
> animal suffer, then abort a human being!  I also have a problem with people
> refusing to eat meat, wear clothes or use items from any animal, but then
> pollute our earth with petroleum products.  Did it ever dawn on you that
> petroleum products are causing the increase in cancer?  Then, some of these
> same people leave trash everywhere, don't turn lights off (which is a waste
> of energy) and don't care how much water they use.  Like someone else said,
> you can find anything to prove your case on the internet, but it's not
> always right or true.  For me, I will continue to use down products.  I
> have had some of my gear longer than 40 years, so my consumption of down
> products is minimal.  I will continue to wear leather shoes, eat meat
> (although that's minimal) and be conservative in my footprint here on
> earth.
>
> Sent from Mailbird
> <http://www.getmailbird.com/?utm_source=Mailbird&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=sent-from-mailbird>
>
> On 5/21/2016 2:51:48 AM, Melanie Clarke <melaniekclarke at gmail.com> wrote:
> My "take away" message is:
>
> The amount of down products is not commensurate with the amount of geese
> being consumed by humans. A big portion of the industry relies on pulling
> down out of alive screaming geese. These geese are not "lovingly groomed",
> I assure you. We want to think that this is not happening but that doesn't
> make it go away. Also "humane suppliers" follow the "letter of the law"
> but a big portion of their "meat" is from geese who have had their down
> plucked for years and are now too old to tolerate this stress. So I feel
> the concept of "humane supplier" is not in keeping with the spirit of the
> law. As the geese after years of torture are then sold cheaply as meat for
> dogs or pets and technically "qualify" for "humane status". If you
> completely remove the plucking down out of alive geese, there would not be
> much down or geese available.
>
> By the way, your angora wool comes from fur torn out of alive screaming
> rabbits. Google it. Many suppliers are now refusing to stock Angora. We
> also need to do this with down. While all angora is torn out of alive
> screaming rabbits. A portion of the down is actually out of killed geese.
> However, this is insidious as this allows us to turn our backs on the much
> larger industry of pulling the down out of alive screaming geese. I agree,
> we can choose to ignore this problem because some down is actually
> "humane". This sad fact complicates the issue.
>
> Making moral equivalence arguments with petroleum products and the extreme
> suffering of animals is despicable.
>
> I also want to add that sadly, I have bought down products in the past
> because I did not have awareness of this issue. I still own a down
> sleeping bag and jacket. I hate to look at these products and they are
> sitting in the back of my closet. It makes me sad to even look at them.
> Once I learned the truth, I did not walk away in denial. I only want to
> share awareness.
>
> Diet Plan
>
>
>
> On Thu, May 19, 2016 at 3:24 AM, River Malcolm
> wrote:
>
> > Dear Diet Plan and others,
> >
> > I was moved by this discussion about humane harvesting of goose down. It
> > is difficult to walk a morally pure and perfect trail through the
> > wilderness of civilized human life (maybe a few have: Jesus, Buddha,
> etc.
> > and millions try with varying success to find and follow their
> footsteps).
> > But I am always inspired when I meet people willing to make the effort.
> >
> > I have little to add to this discussion other than gratitude ( I had
> > failed to even raise the question in my awareness and was deeply
> grateful
> > to see that zpacks, a fine small cottage industry in so many ways,has
> done
> > its best to find cruelty-free down. )
> >
> > But I do want to add that roast goose is something I have often heard of
> > in Europe and even in America as a turkey equivalent for holiday meals.
> > Here is a wiki article if you are interested.
> >
> > https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roast_goose
> >
> > I also want to tell the story of my grandfather. In midlife while
> > wrestling with TB (and losing a daughter to the disease) he underwent a
> > conversion experience -- away from his literal Christianity to his own
> > brand of Unitarian Universalism, to ethical vegetarianism and to belief
> > that organized labor should be an equal partner with management in the
> > business world (a rare view for an owner-manager). He was however in the
> > shoe business, and rationalized his use of leather as an otherwise
> wasted
> > by-product of the meat industry. As a young girl I accused him of
> > hypocrisy. As a woman growing older (68), I marvel at his willingness to
> > take risks and attempt a moral trail however imperfect.
> >
> > Thanks for giving me a chance to write about him. His name was Henry
> Nunn.
> > He wrote two books. The whole Man Goes to Work and Partners in
> Production.
> > He would be very proud of me for section-hiking most of the PCT since my
> > 2013 retirement. He would be disappointed that I gave up vegetarianism
> in
> > my mid-thirties (because I believed it added to my tendency to isolate
> and
> > estrange myself from other humans and so involved a conflict between
> moral
> > goods), but he'd still love and support me however imperfect.
> >
> > Thanks for listening
> > River
> > >
> > > ----------
> > >
> > > Message: 5
> > > Date: Tue, 17 May 2016 19:12:41 -0700
> > > From: Melanie Clarke
> > > To: Jay Bruins
> > > Cc: PCT-L
> > > Subject: Re: [pct-l] Sleeping Bag recommendations
> > > Message-ID:
> > >
> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
> > >
> > > First of all, I want to applaud you for a strong desire to purchase
> > > ethically produced animal products. However, please be aware that
> there
> > is
> > > a tremendous amount of deceptive "legalese" with, well, many consumer
> > > products including animal products. This "Meat Processing Facility",
> > most
> > > likely includes food for dogs, cats and other pets as well as humans.
> > > After harvesting down from alive screaming geese for the life of a
> goose,
> > > it is then, most likely, sold for dog food. Therefore, you are still
> > > supporting this cruel industry. Please don't allow yourself to be
> > deceived!
> > >
> > > Has anyone met anyone who has even eaten a goose? Eating a goose in
> > > America is a rare event. There are no restaurants that I know of that
> > sell
> > > them. They are not in any grocery store. I had some European Foreign
> > > Exchange Students when my children were in High School. They told me
> that
> > > Europeans do not eat as much beef as Americans and they eat more
> "lamb".
> > > I've never known Europeans to eat geese. Two of my daughters have been
> in
> > > Europe, Iceland etc. They never talked about the geese served in
> Europe.
> > > People in China eat a lot of duck, pork, chicken but I've never heard
> of
> > a
> > > large goose consumption.
> > >
> > > Meanwhile, the world is generating millions of tons of down for
> billions
> > of
> > > down products. With all the down products, everyone in the world would
> > > have had to consume 10-20 geese to harvest that much down.
> > >
> > > Many labels with "Humane meat", "Cage Free Eggs" even "Organic" have
> been
> > > exposed as fraud or "deceptive legalese". I'm sure this place in
> Europe
> > is
> > > completely certified from dead animals. However, this is after a
> > lifetime
> > > of cruelty! The number of yearlings sold for human consumption, who
> have
> > > never had their down plucked live; is a small, small small percentage
> of
> > > their "meat industry"! If this company only sold down from "virgin"
> > geese;
> > > you would not have enough product to fill your orders. The price would
> > be
> > > astronomical!
> > >
> > > PLEASE DO NOT BUY DOWN!!!! You would not pull the hair out of your dog
> > or
> > > cat every 6 months. Please do not subject other animals to this
> cruelty.
> > > Do not support this industry!
> > >
> > > Diet Plan
> > >
> > >> On Mon, May 16, 2016 at 9:48 AM, Jay Bruins wrote:
> > >>
> > >> If you're vegan, down is probably out of the question. If you're not,
> > many
> > >> manufactures use reasonable sources.
> > >>
> > >> "Is your Goose Down ethically sourced?
> > >> Yes. Our white goose down comes directly from a meat processing
> facility
> > >> in Europe. It is a byproduct of the goose meat industry and would be
> > thrown
> > >> away if it didn't have a use. No birds are force fed, live plucked,
> or
> > any
> > >> of that nasty business."
> > >> http://zpacks.com/FAQs.shtml#sleepingbags
> > >>
> > >> I would be glad to know what Enlightened Equipment says about their
> > down.
> > >>
> > >> Armstrong
> > >> _______________________________________________
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> > >> Pct-L at backcountry.net
> > >> To unsubscribe, or change options visit:
> > >> http://mailman.backcountry.net/mailman/listinfo/pct-l
> > >>
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> > >> Reproduction is prohibited without express permission.
> > >
> > >
> > > ------------------------------
> > >
> > > Message: 6
> > > Date: Tue, 17 May 2016 21:25:37 -0500
> > > From: Sabrina Harrison
> > > To: Jay Bruins
> > > Cc: PCT-L
> > > Subject: Re: [pct-l] Sleeping Bag recommendations
> > > Message-ID:
> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
> > >
> > > Thanks again, Diet Plan! It takes a lot of courage to speak up and I
> > appreciate all of the information. I had never heard any of that before.
> > >
> > > To answer a question posed earlier, this was the response from
> > enlightened equipment:
> > >
> > > Nick (Enlightened Equipment)
> > > May 17, 07:11
> > >
> > > Hey Sabrina,
> > > We source our down from Europe and all of it is RDS certified. Let me
> > know if you have any other questions.
> > >
> > > Nick
> > > EE
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > _______________________________________________
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> >
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