[pct-l] Ethical goose down?

Sat May 21 10:46:41 CDT 2016

 Has anyone met anyone who has even eaten a goose? Eating a goose in
> > America is a rare event. There are no restaurants that I know of that
> sell it.

I am responding to the above question.  I have eaten goose.  In fact, it was a tradition in my family, every Christmas, to have duck or goose....mostly goose.  I can tell you it's very fatty, but if you lift it out of the pan when it's cooking, it will be less greasy.  It is also very good, very similar to the dark meat on a turkey.  

I also traveled in China a fair amount and I saw geese hanging everywhere!  I suppose it depends on what part of China you go to, but it was a staple there.  A lot of our down does come from China, so my assumption is that the down is coming from the meat industry.  

I do have a problem with the Pro-Animal people who wouldn't dare make an animal suffer, then abort a human being!  I also have a problem with people refusing to eat meat, wear clothes or use items from any animal, but then pollute our earth with petroleum products.  Did it ever dawn on you that petroleum products are causing the increase in cancer?  Then, some of these same people leave trash everywhere, don't turn lights off (which is a waste of energy) and don't care how much water they use.  Like someone else said, you can find anything to prove your case on the internet, but it's not always right or true.  For me, I will continue to use down products.  I have had some of my gear longer than 40 years, so my consumption of down products is minimal.  I will continue to wear leather shoes, eat meat (although that's minimal) and be conservative in my footprint here on earth.  

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On 5/21/2016 2:51:48 AM, Melanie Clarke <melaniekclarke at gmail.com> wrote:
My "take away" message is:

The amount of down products is not commensurate with the amount of geese
being consumed by humans. A big portion of the industry relies on pulling
down out of alive screaming geese. These geese are not "lovingly groomed",
I assure you. We want to think that this is not happening but that doesn't
make it go away. Also "humane suppliers" follow the "letter of the law"
but a big portion of their "meat" is from geese who have had their down
plucked for years and are now too old to tolerate this stress. So I feel
the concept of "humane supplier" is not in keeping with the spirit of the
law. As the geese after years of torture are then sold cheaply as meat for
dogs or pets and technically "qualify" for "humane status". If you
completely remove the plucking down out of alive geese, there would not be
much down or geese available.

By the way, your angora wool comes from fur torn out of alive screaming
rabbits. Google it. Many suppliers are now refusing to stock Angora. We
also need to do this with down. While all angora is torn out of alive
screaming rabbits. A portion of the down is actually out of killed geese.
However, this is insidious as this allows us to turn our backs on the much
larger industry of pulling the down out of alive screaming geese. I agree,
we can choose to ignore this problem because some down is actually
"humane". This sad fact complicates the issue.

Making moral equivalence arguments with petroleum products and the extreme
suffering of animals is despicable.

I also want to add that sadly, I have bought down products in the past
because I did not have awareness of this issue. I still own a down
sleeping bag and jacket. I hate to look at these products and they are
sitting in the back of my closet. It makes me sad to even look at them.
Once I learned the truth, I did not walk away in denial. I only want to
share awareness.

Diet Plan

On Thu, May 19, 2016 at 3:24 AM, River Malcolm
wrote:

> Dear Diet Plan and others,
>
> I was moved by this discussion about humane harvesting of goose down. It
> is difficult to walk a morally pure and perfect trail through the
> wilderness of civilized human life (maybe a few have: Jesus, Buddha, etc.
> and millions try with varying success to find and follow their footsteps).
> But I am always inspired when I meet people willing to make the effort.
>
> I have little to add to this discussion other than gratitude ( I had
> failed to even raise the question in my awareness and was deeply grateful
> to see that zpacks, a fine small cottage industry in so many ways,has done
> its best to find cruelty-free down. )
>
> But I do want to add that roast goose is something I have often heard of
> in Europe and even in America as a turkey equivalent for holiday meals.
> Here is a wiki article if you are interested.
>
> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roast_goose
>
> I also want to tell the story of my grandfather. In midlife while
> wrestling with TB (and losing a daughter to the disease) he underwent a
> conversion experience -- away from his literal Christianity to his own
> brand of Unitarian Universalism, to ethical vegetarianism and to belief
> that organized labor should be an equal partner with management in the
> business world (a rare view for an owner-manager). He was however in the
> shoe business, and rationalized his use of leather as an otherwise wasted
> by-product of the meat industry. As a young girl I accused him of
> hypocrisy. As a woman growing older (68), I marvel at his willingness to
> take risks and attempt a moral trail however imperfect.
>
> Thanks for giving me a chance to write about him. His name was Henry Nunn.
> He wrote two books. The whole Man Goes to Work and Partners in Production.
> He would be very proud of me for section-hiking most of the PCT since my
> 2013 retirement. He would be disappointed that I gave up vegetarianism in
> my mid-thirties (because I believed it added to my tendency to isolate and
> estrange myself from other humans and so involved a conflict between moral
> goods), but he'd still love and support me however imperfect.
>
> Thanks for listening
> River
> >
> > ----------
> >
> > Message: 5
> > Date: Tue, 17 May 2016 19:12:41 -0700
> > From: Melanie Clarke
> > To: Jay Bruins
> > Cc: PCT-L
> > Subject: Re: [pct-l] Sleeping Bag recommendations
> > Message-ID:
> >
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
> >
> > First of all, I want to applaud you for a strong desire to purchase
> > ethically produced animal products. However, please be aware that there
> is
> > a tremendous amount of deceptive "legalese" with, well, many consumer
> > products including animal products. This "Meat Processing Facility",
> most
> > likely includes food for dogs, cats and other pets as well as humans.
> > After harvesting down from alive screaming geese for the life of a goose,
> > it is then, most likely, sold for dog food. Therefore, you are still
> > supporting this cruel industry. Please don't allow yourself to be
> deceived!
> >
> > Has anyone met anyone who has even eaten a goose? Eating a goose in
> > America is a rare event. There are no restaurants that I know of that
> sell
> > them. They are not in any grocery store. I had some European Foreign
> > Exchange Students when my children were in High School. They told me that
> > Europeans do not eat as much beef as Americans and they eat more "lamb".
> > I've never known Europeans to eat geese. Two of my daughters have been in
> > Europe, Iceland etc. They never talked about the geese served in Europe.
> > People in China eat a lot of duck, pork, chicken but I've never heard of
> a
> > large goose consumption.
> >
> > Meanwhile, the world is generating millions of tons of down for billions
> of
> > down products. With all the down products, everyone in the world would
> > have had to consume 10-20 geese to harvest that much down.
> >
> > Many labels with "Humane meat", "Cage Free Eggs" even "Organic" have been
> > exposed as fraud or "deceptive legalese". I'm sure this place in Europe
> is
> > completely certified from dead animals. However, this is after a
> lifetime
> > of cruelty! The number of yearlings sold for human consumption, who have
> > never had their down plucked live; is a small, small small percentage of
> > their "meat industry"! If this company only sold down from "virgin"
> geese;
> > you would not have enough product to fill your orders. The price would
> be
> > astronomical!
> >
> > PLEASE DO NOT BUY DOWN!!!! You would not pull the hair out of your dog
> or
> > cat every 6 months. Please do not subject other animals to this cruelty.
> > Do not support this industry!
> >
> > Diet Plan
> >
> >> On Mon, May 16, 2016 at 9:48 AM, Jay Bruins wrote:
> >>
> >> If you're vegan, down is probably out of the question. If you're not,
> many
> >> manufactures use reasonable sources.
> >>
> >> "Is your Goose Down ethically sourced?
> >> Yes. Our white goose down comes directly from a meat processing facility
> >> in Europe. It is a byproduct of the goose meat industry and would be
> thrown
> >> away if it didn't have a use. No birds are force fed, live plucked, or
> any
> >> of that nasty business."
> >> http://zpacks.com/FAQs.shtml#sleepingbags
> >>
> >> I would be glad to know what Enlightened Equipment says about their
> down.
> >>
> >> Armstrong
> >> _______________________________________________
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> >> All content is copyrighted by the respective authors.
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> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 6
> > Date: Tue, 17 May 2016 21:25:37 -0500
> > From: Sabrina Harrison
> > To: Jay Bruins
> > Cc: PCT-L
> > Subject: Re: [pct-l] Sleeping Bag recommendations
> > Message-ID:
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
> >
> > Thanks again, Diet Plan! It takes a lot of courage to speak up and I
> appreciate all of the information. I had never heard any of that before.
> >
> > To answer a question posed earlier, this was the response from
> enlightened equipment:
> >
> > Nick (Enlightened Equipment)
> > May 17, 07:11
> >
> > Hey Sabrina,
> > We source our down from Europe and all of it is RDS certified. Let me
> know if you have any other questions.
> >
> > Nick
> > EE
> >
> >
> >
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