[pct-l] UL Tents

Tue Jan 4 01:41:21 CST 2011

Hey Kevin,

Yeah, huge advocate of hammocks myself. I have been using them for a few
years now. Of course, the weight of a tree-strap to wrap around a 60-foot
Redwood tree is more than a MSR tent - giggle.

I have had the Warrbonnet Blackbird and made the switch to a GrizzBridge
Hammock and if I were to use anything on the PCT it would probably be the WB
Traveller and Bug net, or, I would try to talk Brandon from WB into making a
CF Blackbird to try to bring the weight down.

I did a video of that setup a while back.
http://www.youtube.com/user/RedwoodOutdoors

That said, I have been working with a couple of folks for custom Cuben Fiber
hammocks that are also "ground worthy" for those times when you've just got
to GtG with your hammock.

If you are on hammockforums.net I am RedwoodGuy over there.

For me it all was about two things:

(1) Versatility of setup. The vast majority (heck all) of the PCT is setup
for tents. In previous inquires I have found less than 10 people have done
the PCT with a hammock, and none of them have thus-far shared viable details
with their experience (where can/cannot hang).

(2) Weight. In the end, with a top quilt AND under quilt AND suspension
gear, I have just not been able to find a sub-4-pound hammock setup. I am at
61.6 ounces for my tent setup. Yeah, I can get a 20-ounce hammock/net, but
it's the requirement of two quilts that kill you on the weight scale for the
winter areas. Cold Butt Syndrome (cbs) is never a pleasant thing and there
is just not a light weight method for those sub-freezing conditions. I tried
and tried and tried every setup combination out there and have simply not
been able to get a sub-4 pound sleeping setup for a winter condition in the
hammock world.

Here is my present setup:

https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0As-hvbUBJ_X_dHJXU3ZDb2VlOElUczlWS3JaUmNtNGc&hl=en&authkey=CLCE2LAO

As for "comfort of a hammock"... at 37 (just turned) I find I can sleep just
as comfortably (if not better some times) in a tent with my neoair than I
can in/with a hammock. So, while I am no old-guy yet, this whole comfort
thing just isn't a legit 'selling point' for me with hammocks.

If I did not live where I live, I would totally be a tarp/bivy guy. Without
a doubt. If I lived back in the desert (Mojave) where I grew up, I'd never
in a million years have to buy the HMG, TT, SMD, etc tents.

Thanks for the thoughts Kevin - I am totally with you on what you've said!

John

On Mon, Jan 3, 2011 at 11:21 PM, Kevin Cook <hikelite at gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi John,
>
> Thanks for your thorough review of the current offerings in lightweight
> shelters. It's valuable information on the merits and shortcomings of the
> current lightweight backpacking shelter offerings.
>
> It seems to me that your major complaint has to do with the floor of your
> shelters leaking. Might I suggest a simple and elegant solution? Stop
> sleeping on the wet ground. Sleep in a hammock! Not only will it eliminate
> the issue of a river running through your campsite, it's vastly more
> comfortable. Given your locale, finding two trees should not be an issue
> either. As far as weight goes, a hammock shelter can compete with silnylon
> ground based equivalents. If you bring Cuben fiber into the equation, it
> might add a couple ounces. I would argue that those ounces are worth the
> increase in comfort! I know most thru hikers get laser focused on reducing
> weight as much as possible, but you need to consider hte value of improved
> rest. Think about where hammocks are commonly found, the tropics. Basically
> it's the Pacific Northwest's amount of rainfall, except warmer. The figured
> long ago that it was better to sleep off the ground. Even Western culture
> has decided that sleeping off the ground is preferable. The difference is,
> we use a rigid structure to keep us elevated as opposed to suspended between
> supports.
>
> I plan to hammock the PCT this year. I will be utilizing a system that
> allows for sleeping on the ground when necessary, mostly for socal, by using
> a ThermaRest NeoAir inflatable pad. There may be occasions where I want to
> sleep above treeline as well, so that flexibility is important to me. If you
> are certain trees will always be available, then a combination of top quit
> and under quilt can compete with the traditional tent, pad, and sleeping bag
> in regards to total shelter weight.
>
> Have you ever used a tarp as your shelter against inclement weather? I made
> the switch about 10 years ago, and will never go back to a tent. Even when I
> choose, or need, to sleep on the ground, I prefer it. It does require
> developing some skill at choosing a site and how to pitch your shelter, but
> we all learn many skills that allow us to exist in wilderness comfortably.
> Like those, using a tarp, instead of a tent, will become natural.
>
> I'll get off my soapbox now. Yes, I'm a tarp evangelist :)  I have
> converted most of the people that backpack with me. Most of those converts
> also sleep in a hammock now. I will admit that a hammock is not for
> everyone, but I would also argue they aren't using the right hammock
> correctly, but that's another discussion ;)  HYOH and all that hehe
>
> If anyone has questions about tarps or hammocks, I'm always agreeable to
> talk gear and backpacking!
>
> We now return to a discussion of tents. ;)
>
> On Mon, Jan 3, 2011 at 10:36 PM, John Abela <
> pacificcresttrail2011 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Hey Chris,
>>
>> As others have said, Six Moon Design, TarpTent are probably the two most
>> commonly knows manufactors for UL tents.
>>
>> The MSR and Big Agnes are pretty much rips of those two companies tents
>> (still great tents, but they have to overbuild to hold their reputation
>> and
>> thus are heavier).
>>
>> If you are looking for something lighter than the SMD and TarpTent models
>> -
>> and still want to maintain an enclosed tent for those hellishly skiters -
>> there is the Echo 1 system from Hyperlite Mountain Gear.
>>
>> Now the following example is far outside anything you will encounter on
>> the
>> PCT unless the weather over 2011 continues to play games with us mere
>> humans, but here is my story...
>>
>> I have owned multiple TT models. Every single one has failed me. And,
>> every
>> single SMD would fail me to because they all have the same issues.
>>
>> For me, I live where it rains and rains and rains and oh-boy, its raining
>> some more. Gotta love the rain here in the Redwood Forest of NorCal.
>>
>> Check out this photograph of a trail I was on... this time of year just
>> about every trail up here looks like this:
>>
>> http://www.flickr.com/photos/abelajohnb/4619499718/
>>
>> Now imagine trying to setup a tent in this.
>>
>> Simply put, you can walk for 8-10 hours and not find a dry spot here. When
>> it starts getting really wet, even finding a burned out Redwood Stump to
>> crawl into is no good as they have been saturated. We had 33 out of 36
>> days
>> of straight rain in Nov/Dec. It stopped raining the day before Christmas
>> and
>> Christmas day (ohhh, how nice) and than went back at it again.
>>
>> So, the issue here is water getting into the bathtub. I directly talked
>> with
>> Henry from TarpTent before I bought my first one and he said they would
>> handle it. So I dropped the money and first night it failed. Second night
>> it
>> failed. Cut my trip short as all of my down gear was soaked. Called TT and
>> told them about it. He said he's encountered such situations only a few
>> times in all the years he's been at it. Suggested a different one, I tried
>> it. It failed too. Simply put, the bathtubs on TT's are so freakishly low,
>> that even a slight amount of water flow outside the bathtub is going to
>> make
>> you consider the wisdom of one of those - especially if you use down
>> sleeping gear.
>>
>> So, I passed on it and went looking for something with a real bathtub.
>> Ended
>> up over at MLD ( www.mountainlaureldesigns.com ) and all of their stuff
>> had
>> the same issues. But, while looking at their gear I discovered a fairly
>> new
>> start-up in the industry called 'Hyperlite Mountain Gear' (
>> www.hyperlitemountaingear.com ) and they pretty much only have two
>> products.
>> A tent and a backpack. Slightly more expensive than what you'll pay for
>> MSR
>> tents and about twice what you will pay for a TarpTent. Their Echo1 peaked
>> my interest because of the higher bathtub it has (10, maybe 12 inches) and
>> because it puts the hurt to even TarpTents on the weight scale, which is
>> amazing. It's 100% cuben fiber and bug netting. Anyway, at this point I
>> had
>> already dropped over a grand trying to find a tent that would keep me dry
>> here in the Redwoods, so I just sucked it up and dropped the money for the
>> HMG tent.
>>
>> I have had the chance to use it a few times now but not enough for a full
>> review of it. Here are my thoughts so far. Freakishly light. Hellishly
>> strong. Crazy high bathtub. Modular system is nice for when the bugs are
>> not
>> out. Brilliant use of the right weight CF in just the right places.
>> Bathtub
>> is heavier CF, tarp is very light. At this point a few negatives. The
>> insert
>> is just not tall enough for my 6'2 height. I just cannot sit up in it
>> without hitting the top of the bug-net, unless I really have the poles
>> adjusted high, but if it is raining hard I cannot do that. That makes it
>> very very hard to move around in. It is a front-entrance so that already
>> makes it hard for the average hiker who is not use to that design style.
>> Where it lacks in height it makes up for in width. I thought it would not
>> be
>> as wide as it is. I can easily get my z-lite pad inside with about 5 or 6
>> inches on each side. Could not fit two of them in there though. The length
>> of the insert also surprised me. It looks like it is not very long but I
>> could get myself and my pack inside if I needed to (never have because of
>> the front beak).
>>
>> Anyway Chris, I am in a very unique situation here where I live. Nowhere
>> along the PCT are you probably going to encounter 30+ days of straight
>> rain.
>> Maybe NorWA if it is a bad year (??). But even that factor aside, the
>> weight
>> of the HMG compared to a TarpTent, if you have the money to spend, makes
>> the
>> HMG a viable option if you are looking for a bomb proof shelter. I would
>> take this on snow without hesitation. I am not sure I would put it into a
>> season4 situation of hellishly strong hail/snow/wind though. Regardless of
>> what HMG says and stands by, the lack of a beak at the foot end (even
>> though
>> I have never ever had water get in from that direction) just does not turn
>> this into a 4Season tent. But, lets face it, that is not something
>> typically
>> encountered on the PCT.
>>
>> In the end, I would probably just stick with the HMG over getting another
>> TarpTent for the PCT. Just too many condensation issues with the TarpTent
>> line of tents (I've never had one of them that didn't suffer that) and
>> they
>> are all heavier than the HMG, and I already own this HMG, so I might as
>> well
>> just stick with it. Overkill for the PCT I would say. I do know a few
>> folks
>> used the HMG on the PCT last year and heard/read no major complaints.
>>
>> In closing, I would just say figure out your budget for a tent, and start
>> your research there. If you only have 250 bucks, check out TarpTent. If
>> you've got 350 bucks, check out SMD, if you've got 400 bucks, check out
>> MLD,
>> and if you've got 500 bucks, check out HMG. (and yes, MSR at 3.5 pounds
>> heavier than anything else, but still in the MSR 450-500 range)
>>
>> All that said, I suspect you will get a lot of folks who say forget a
>> full-on tent, take some bug gear and a tarp and call it good - and save
>> yourself even more weight!!
>>
>> John
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Jan 3, 2011 at 5:58 PM, Christopher Barrow <cbarrow1 at gmail.com
>> >wrote:
>>
>> > Does anyone have perspectives on the lightweight tent as a shelter for
>> the
>> > PCT.  I'm pretty resolved that I will enjoy the evenings/sleeping much
>> more
>> > during my hike if I can be totally enclosed (more protection from the
>> wind,
>> > the elements, rodents, critters, and the always annoying mosquitoes).
>> >
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