[pct-l] UL Tents

Tue Jan 4 01:21:45 CST 2011

Hi John,

Thanks for your thorough review of the current offerings in lightweight
shelters. It's valuable information on the merits and shortcomings of the
current lightweight backpacking shelter offerings.

It seems to me that your major complaint has to do with the floor of your
shelters leaking. Might I suggest a simple and elegant solution? Stop
sleeping on the wet ground. Sleep in a hammock! Not only will it eliminate
the issue of a river running through your campsite, it's vastly more
comfortable. Given your locale, finding two trees should not be an issue
either. As far as weight goes, a hammock shelter can compete with silnylon
ground based equivalents. If you bring Cuben fiber into the equation, it
might add a couple ounces. I would argue that those ounces are worth the
increase in comfort! I know most thru hikers get laser focused on reducing
weight as much as possible, but you need to consider hte value of improved
rest. Think about where hammocks are commonly found, the tropics. Basically
it's the Pacific Northwest's amount of rainfall, except warmer. The figured
long ago that it was better to sleep off the ground. Even Western culture
has decided that sleeping off the ground is preferable. The difference is,
we use a rigid structure to keep us elevated as opposed to suspended between
supports.

I plan to hammock the PCT this year. I will be utilizing a system that
allows for sleeping on the ground when necessary, mostly for socal, by using
a ThermaRest NeoAir inflatable pad. There may be occasions where I want to
sleep above treeline as well, so that flexibility is important to me. If you
are certain trees will always be available, then a combination of top quit
and under quilt can compete with the traditional tent, pad, and sleeping bag
in regards to total shelter weight.

Have you ever used a tarp as your shelter against inclement weather? I made
the switch about 10 years ago, and will never go back to a tent. Even when I
choose, or need, to sleep on the ground, I prefer it. It does require
developing some skill at choosing a site and how to pitch your shelter, but
we all learn many skills that allow us to exist in wilderness comfortably.
Like those, using a tarp, instead of a tent, will become natural.

I'll get off my soapbox now. Yes, I'm a tarp evangelist :)  I have converted
most of the people that backpack with me. Most of those converts also sleep
in a hammock now. I will admit that a hammock is not for everyone, but I
would also argue they aren't using the right hammock correctly, but that's
another discussion ;)  HYOH and all that hehe

If anyone has questions about tarps or hammocks, I'm always agreeable to
talk gear and backpacking!

We now return to a discussion of tents. ;)

On Mon, Jan 3, 2011 at 10:36 PM, John Abela <pacificcresttrail2011 at gmail.com
> wrote:

> Hey Chris,
>
> As others have said, Six Moon Design, TarpTent are probably the two most
> commonly knows manufactors for UL tents.
>
> The MSR and Big Agnes are pretty much rips of those two companies tents
> (still great tents, but they have to overbuild to hold their reputation and
> thus are heavier).
>
> If you are looking for something lighter than the SMD and TarpTent models -
> and still want to maintain an enclosed tent for those hellishly skiters -
> there is the Echo 1 system from Hyperlite Mountain Gear.
>
> Now the following example is far outside anything you will encounter on the
> PCT unless the weather over 2011 continues to play games with us mere
> humans, but here is my story...
>
> I have owned multiple TT models. Every single one has failed me. And, every
> single SMD would fail me to because they all have the same issues.
>
> For me, I live where it rains and rains and rains and oh-boy, its raining
> some more. Gotta love the rain here in the Redwood Forest of NorCal.
>
> Check out this photograph of a trail I was on... this time of year just
> about every trail up here looks like this:
>
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/abelajohnb/4619499718/
>
> Now imagine trying to setup a tent in this.
>
> Simply put, you can walk for 8-10 hours and not find a dry spot here. When
> it starts getting really wet, even finding a burned out Redwood Stump to
> crawl into is no good as they have been saturated. We had 33 out of 36 days
> of straight rain in Nov/Dec. It stopped raining the day before Christmas
> and
> Christmas day (ohhh, how nice) and than went back at it again.
>
> So, the issue here is water getting into the bathtub. I directly talked
> with
> Henry from TarpTent before I bought my first one and he said they would
> handle it. So I dropped the money and first night it failed. Second night
> it
> failed. Cut my trip short as all of my down gear was soaked. Called TT and
> told them about it. He said he's encountered such situations only a few
> times in all the years he's been at it. Suggested a different one, I tried
> it. It failed too. Simply put, the bathtubs on TT's are so freakishly low,
> that even a slight amount of water flow outside the bathtub is going to
> make
> you consider the wisdom of one of those - especially if you use down
> sleeping gear.
>
> So, I passed on it and went looking for something with a real bathtub.
> Ended
> up over at MLD ( www.mountainlaureldesigns.com ) and all of their stuff
> had
> the same issues. But, while looking at their gear I discovered a fairly new
> start-up in the industry called 'Hyperlite Mountain Gear' (
> www.hyperlitemountaingear.com ) and they pretty much only have two
> products.
> A tent and a backpack. Slightly more expensive than what you'll pay for MSR
> tents and about twice what you will pay for a TarpTent. Their Echo1 peaked
> my interest because of the higher bathtub it has (10, maybe 12 inches) and
> because it puts the hurt to even TarpTents on the weight scale, which is
> amazing. It's 100% cuben fiber and bug netting. Anyway, at this point I had
> already dropped over a grand trying to find a tent that would keep me dry
> here in the Redwoods, so I just sucked it up and dropped the money for the
> HMG tent.
>
> I have had the chance to use it a few times now but not enough for a full
> review of it. Here are my thoughts so far. Freakishly light. Hellishly
> strong. Crazy high bathtub. Modular system is nice for when the bugs are
> not
> out. Brilliant use of the right weight CF in just the right places. Bathtub
> is heavier CF, tarp is very light. At this point a few negatives. The
> insert
> is just not tall enough for my 6'2 height. I just cannot sit up in it
> without hitting the top of the bug-net, unless I really have the poles
> adjusted high, but if it is raining hard I cannot do that. That makes it
> very very hard to move around in. It is a front-entrance so that already
> makes it hard for the average hiker who is not use to that design style.
> Where it lacks in height it makes up for in width. I thought it would not
> be
> as wide as it is. I can easily get my z-lite pad inside with about 5 or 6
> inches on each side. Could not fit two of them in there though. The length
> of the insert also surprised me. It looks like it is not very long but I
> could get myself and my pack inside if I needed to (never have because of
> the front beak).
>
> Anyway Chris, I am in a very unique situation here where I live. Nowhere
> along the PCT are you probably going to encounter 30+ days of straight
> rain.
> Maybe NorWA if it is a bad year (??). But even that factor aside, the
> weight
> of the HMG compared to a TarpTent, if you have the money to spend, makes
> the
> HMG a viable option if you are looking for a bomb proof shelter. I would
> take this on snow without hesitation. I am not sure I would put it into a
> season4 situation of hellishly strong hail/snow/wind though. Regardless of
> what HMG says and stands by, the lack of a beak at the foot end (even
> though
> I have never ever had water get in from that direction) just does not turn
> this into a 4Season tent. But, lets face it, that is not something
> typically
> encountered on the PCT.
>
> In the end, I would probably just stick with the HMG over getting another
> TarpTent for the PCT. Just too many condensation issues with the TarpTent
> line of tents (I've never had one of them that didn't suffer that) and they
> are all heavier than the HMG, and I already own this HMG, so I might as
> well
> just stick with it. Overkill for the PCT I would say. I do know a few folks
> used the HMG on the PCT last year and heard/read no major complaints.
>
> In closing, I would just say figure out your budget for a tent, and start
> your research there. If you only have 250 bucks, check out TarpTent. If
> you've got 350 bucks, check out SMD, if you've got 400 bucks, check out
> MLD,
> and if you've got 500 bucks, check out HMG. (and yes, MSR at 3.5 pounds
> heavier than anything else, but still in the MSR 450-500 range)
>
> All that said, I suspect you will get a lot of folks who say forget a
> full-on tent, take some bug gear and a tarp and call it good - and save
> yourself even more weight!!
>
> John
>
>
> On Mon, Jan 3, 2011 at 5:58 PM, Christopher Barrow <cbarrow1 at gmail.com
> >wrote:
>
> > Does anyone have perspectives on the lightweight tent as a shelter for
> the
> > PCT.  I'm pretty resolved that I will enjoy the evenings/sleeping much
> more
> > during my hike if I can be totally enclosed (more protection from the
> wind,
> > the elements, rodents, critters, and the always annoying mosquitoes).
> >
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