[pct-l] Are alcohol stoves banned anywhere on the PCT?

[Tortoise]

To add to what AsABat said --

there are areas with year-round (permanent) restrictions. I don't know of 
any one site which has all such information.

Then, various restrictions are applied due to the fire risk changes -- 
simply put, as the forest dries out, the fire risk increases and then 
various restrictions are applied.

Maybe someone knows of a general site for such info.

Tortoise

<> Because truth matters! <>

On 09/15/10 07:20, AsABat wrote:
> My interpretations below.
>
> The alcohol stove question may stir up the natives. There are some very
> adamantly opposed to alcohol stoves, and they have very valid reasons.
> Alcohol stoves used on picnic tables scorch the table. Worse, several fires
> have been started by PCT thruhikers using alcohol stoves improperly. All
> stoves should be used only in an area cleared for a 5-foot radius. Don't dig
> up a 10' diameter circle of grass, find a naturally cleared spot and sweep
> away the leaves and pine needles. A big rock works great. Don't use any
> stove in high winds, they or the flame can be blown into the vegetation and
> start a fire. And NEVER walk over your stove to get something on the other
> side, fires have been started by kicking the burning stove over. (My
> personal view is every stove is dangerous unless used properly. I have had
> several close calls with liquid fuel stoves flaring up when priming, but
> never a problem with an alcohol stove. Others will express different views,
> some of which I just mentioned. Whatever you do, BE SAFE.)
>   On Wed, Sep 15, 2010 at 5:53 AM,<Trash at crazyearth.com>  wrote:
>
>> I need help to better understand the various campfire&  camp stove rules
>> that currently must be followed along the PCT.  I've printed&  filled out
>> an
>> annual "California Campfire Permit", which authorizes building a campfire
>> on
>> National Forest Land and Bureau of Land Management Land (within CA, I
>> assume).  But I'm not sure where that permit may not apply, such as
>> National
>> Parks, and I don't know if there are any seasonal fire restrictions
>> currently in place.
>>
>
>   Where does the California Campfire Permit apply? While it says USFS and BLM
> land, this site
> http://www.fire.ca.gov/communications/communications_firesafety_camping_campfirepermits.php
> also says it applies to private land in California (with permission of the
> property owner) and
> since it's also issued by CalFire, there is a presumption it applies on
> California land, although it doesn't say so.
> It doesn't weigh much, I would carry it in all of California.
>
>
>>
>> I realize the "California Campfire Permit" indicates there are "Special
>> Limitations", and it is my responsibility to find those out.
>>   Unfortunately,
>> hiking long distances along the PCT, one passes thru many different federal
>> jurisdictions.  For example, if one hiked the entire Sierra Nevada range,
>> you'd pass thru 3 National Parks, 1 National Monument, 9 National Forests,
>> 17 National Wilderness Areas and some Private Land.  Contacting each
>> locally
>> would be very time consuming and difficult.  Checking current fire
>> restrictions while on the trail, could be impossible (no cell service).
>>
>> I've been hiking the PCT, Southern section G, on BLM land, but plan to
>> travel into sections H&  I before the snow hits.  I'm primarily interested
>> in understanding the various fire related rules, particularly those related
>> to alcohol stoves, that I might encounter along the length of the Sierra
>> Nevada (sections F-N) while hiking the PCT.
>>
>> Alcohol stoves are a confusing situation in all this. Since they aren't
> well known commercially, many of the rulemakers aren't sure what to do with
> them.
>
>> Here are my fire related questions:
>>
>> 1. Are there areas that "never" allow the use of alcohol camp stoves?  If
>> so, do any exist in the Sierra Nevada, along the PCT?  Where?  Any areas
>> that "never" allow camp fires?
>>
>
> I am not aware of any area that "never" allows the use of alcohol stoves.
> There are areas that NEVER allow campfires, but that refers to wood and
> charcoal fires because of scarcity of local wood and/or keeping ash out of
> the environment. Where? There is no comprehensive list. The guidebook
> mentions them sometimes, but they change. Read the signs at trailheads, look
> for signs, but note that sometimes the signs have been burned for firewood!
>
>
>>
>> 2. In which federal areas would a "California Campfire Permit" not apply?
>> Does such a permit not include National Parks or National Wilderness Areas?
>> I know some wilderness areas require a special permit.  Which areas in the
>> Sierra Nevada along the PCT require such a special permit?  Do I need to
>> obtain separate fire permits for each area, and what is the easiest way to
>> do so?  Obviously, I'd want to avoid having to drive to all the local
>> offices.  Can this be done online, over the phone, or via FAX?
>>
>>
> Carry the California Campfire Permit throughout California. Mine is in my
> wallet when I'm not hiking just in case. As for wilderness permits, the
> guidebook is pretty accurate, not entirely. Note that you only need ONE
> wilderness permit for one hike, provided you don't leave the trail more than
> 24 hours. Get a permit for the first wilderness that requires one, and you
> are good for your entire trip. There are minor exceptions to this, such as
> state park campgrounds (including the state wilderness campgrounds on San
> Jacinto, but most of the trail is outside the state park there). Also, if
> you are hiking more than 500 miles of PCT, you can get your permit from the
> PCTA.
>
>
>> 3. Is there a single phone number or web-site I access to check for current
>> fire restrictions within the Sierra Nevada, along the PCT?  What/where?  Or
>> must I contact each local office for each federal agency?
>>
>>
> No. Yes, you "must" contact each agency, but I doubt anyone does as the
> rules are at the trailheads.
>
>
>> 4. Is anyone aware of any current fire restrictions within the Sierra
>> Nevada, that'd prevent the normal usage of campfires or stoves?  If so,
>> where?
>>
>> There are many restrictions on wood and charcoal fires, none on stoves.
> Some are above a certain elevation, which changes by latitude, others ban
> fires because of overuse or scarce wood supply (even if you carry your own
> wood!).
>
>
>> 5. The "California Campfire Permit" indicates only stoves with gas, jellied
>> petroleum, or pressurized liquid fuel may be used outside of developed
>> areas, when a fire restriction is in affect.  So, I assume my small
>> "pop-can" alcohol stove would not be allowed in this case?  Correct?
>>
>>
> This is the big question. I this "gas, jellied petroleum, or pressurized
> liquid fuel" distinguishes the stove from a wood or charcoal stove (zip
> stove, hibachi, etc.). Many nonscientists consider "gas" to be any liquid
> that burns - kerosene, for example, is popular in other countries. Others
> take it literally. During extreme fire conditions there have been orders
> allowing only stoves that have a shut-off valve, effectively banning alcohol
> stoves (although I think there is one commercial model with a valve).
>
>
>> 6. I know some high-country areas prohibit wood fires, to protect the
>> vegetation.  Where is that true in the Sierra Nevada, along the PCT?
>>
>> Yes, usually signed, unless the sign has been vandalized.
>
>
>> 7. Is there a hard rule that no fires can be built above 9000 feet?
>> Correct?  If so, does that also restrict using alcohol stoves?
>>
>> It varies by location. This applies to wood and charcoal stoves only for
> reasons mentioned above.
>
>
>> I'm interested in answers to my specific questions.  I'm not trying to
>> start
>> a "Leave No Trace" debate about campfires, nor a "Ultra-lite Backpacking"
>> flame about avoiding cooked food.  As an occasional treat, I like to use an
>> alcohol stove for hot coffee, or warm cous-cous.  Is that so wrong?  I
>> might
>> never build a campfire on the PCT, and would never destroy vegetation.  But
>> if I happen to be camped next to a pre-made fire pit on BLM land, with a
>> stack of dead limbs near by, on a cold cold Fall night, I'd at least like
>> to
>> understand if making a fire is an option.
>>
>> Julian
>>
>>
> AsABat
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