[pct-l] Are alcohol stoves banned anywhere on the PCT?

[AsABat]

My interpretations below.

The alcohol stove question may stir up the natives. There are some very
adamantly opposed to alcohol stoves, and they have very valid reasons.
Alcohol stoves used on picnic tables scorch the table. Worse, several fires
have been started by PCT thruhikers using alcohol stoves improperly. All
stoves should be used only in an area cleared for a 5-foot radius. Don't dig
up a 10' diameter circle of grass, find a naturally cleared spot and sweep
away the leaves and pine needles. A big rock works great. Don't use any
stove in high winds, they or the flame can be blown into the vegetation and
start a fire. And NEVER walk over your stove to get something on the other
side, fires have been started by kicking the burning stove over. (My
personal view is every stove is dangerous unless used properly. I have had
several close calls with liquid fuel stoves flaring up when priming, but
never a problem with an alcohol stove. Others will express different views,
some of which I just mentioned. Whatever you do, BE SAFE.)
 On Wed, Sep 15, 2010 at 5:53 AM, <Trash at crazyearth.com> wrote:

> I need help to better understand the various campfire & camp stove rules
> that currently must be followed along the PCT.  I've printed & filled out
> an
> annual "California Campfire Permit", which authorizes building a campfire
> on
> National Forest Land and Bureau of Land Management Land (within CA, I
> assume).  But I'm not sure where that permit may not apply, such as
> National
> Parks, and I don't know if there are any seasonal fire restrictions
> currently in place.
>

 Where does the California Campfire Permit apply? While it says USFS and BLM
land, this site
http://www.fire.ca.gov/communications/communications_firesafety_camping_campfirepermits.php
also says it applies to private land in California (with permission of the
property owner) and
since it's also issued by CalFire, there is a presumption it applies on
California land, although it doesn't say so.
It doesn't weigh much, I would carry it in all of California.


>
> I realize the "California Campfire Permit" indicates there are "Special
> Limitations", and it is my responsibility to find those out.
>  Unfortunately,
> hiking long distances along the PCT, one passes thru many different federal
> jurisdictions.  For example, if one hiked the entire Sierra Nevada range,
> you'd pass thru 3 National Parks, 1 National Monument, 9 National Forests,
> 17 National Wilderness Areas and some Private Land.  Contacting each
> locally
> would be very time consuming and difficult.  Checking current fire
> restrictions while on the trail, could be impossible (no cell service).
>
> I've been hiking the PCT, Southern section G, on BLM land, but plan to
> travel into sections H & I before the snow hits.  I'm primarily interested
> in understanding the various fire related rules, particularly those related
> to alcohol stoves, that I might encounter along the length of the Sierra
> Nevada (sections F-N) while hiking the PCT.
>
> Alcohol stoves are a confusing situation in all this. Since they aren't
well known commercially, many of the rulemakers aren't sure what to do with
them.

> Here are my fire related questions:
>
> 1. Are there areas that "never" allow the use of alcohol camp stoves?  If
> so, do any exist in the Sierra Nevada, along the PCT?  Where?  Any areas
> that "never" allow camp fires?
>

I am not aware of any area that "never" allows the use of alcohol stoves.
There are areas that NEVER allow campfires, but that refers to wood and
charcoal fires because of scarcity of local wood and/or keeping ash out of
the environment. Where? There is no comprehensive list. The guidebook
mentions them sometimes, but they change. Read the signs at trailheads, look
for signs, but note that sometimes the signs have been burned for firewood!


>
> 2. In which federal areas would a "California Campfire Permit" not apply?
> Does such a permit not include National Parks or National Wilderness Areas?
> I know some wilderness areas require a special permit.  Which areas in the
> Sierra Nevada along the PCT require such a special permit?  Do I need to
> obtain separate fire permits for each area, and what is the easiest way to
> do so?  Obviously, I'd want to avoid having to drive to all the local
> offices.  Can this be done online, over the phone, or via FAX?
>
>
Carry the California Campfire Permit throughout California. Mine is in my
wallet when I'm not hiking just in case. As for wilderness permits, the
guidebook is pretty accurate, not entirely. Note that you only need ONE
wilderness permit for one hike, provided you don't leave the trail more than
24 hours. Get a permit for the first wilderness that requires one, and you
are good for your entire trip. There are minor exceptions to this, such as
state park campgrounds (including the state wilderness campgrounds on San
Jacinto, but most of the trail is outside the state park there). Also, if
you are hiking more than 500 miles of PCT, you can get your permit from the
PCTA.


> 3. Is there a single phone number or web-site I access to check for current
> fire restrictions within the Sierra Nevada, along the PCT?  What/where?  Or
> must I contact each local office for each federal agency?
>
>
No. Yes, you "must" contact each agency, but I doubt anyone does as the
rules are at the trailheads.


> 4. Is anyone aware of any current fire restrictions within the Sierra
> Nevada, that'd prevent the normal usage of campfires or stoves?  If so,
> where?
>
> There are many restrictions on wood and charcoal fires, none on stoves.
Some are above a certain elevation, which changes by latitude, others ban
fires because of overuse or scarce wood supply (even if you carry your own
wood!).


> 5. The "California Campfire Permit" indicates only stoves with gas, jellied
> petroleum, or pressurized liquid fuel may be used outside of developed
> areas, when a fire restriction is in affect.  So, I assume my small
> "pop-can" alcohol stove would not be allowed in this case?  Correct?
>
>
This is the big question. I this "gas, jellied petroleum, or pressurized
liquid fuel" distinguishes the stove from a wood or charcoal stove (zip
stove, hibachi, etc.). Many nonscientists consider "gas" to be any liquid
that burns - kerosene, for example, is popular in other countries. Others
take it literally. During extreme fire conditions there have been orders
allowing only stoves that have a shut-off valve, effectively banning alcohol
stoves (although I think there is one commercial model with a valve).


> 6. I know some high-country areas prohibit wood fires, to protect the
> vegetation.  Where is that true in the Sierra Nevada, along the PCT?
>
> Yes, usually signed, unless the sign has been vandalized.


> 7. Is there a hard rule that no fires can be built above 9000 feet?
> Correct?  If so, does that also restrict using alcohol stoves?
>
> It varies by location. This applies to wood and charcoal stoves only for
reasons mentioned above.


> I'm interested in answers to my specific questions.  I'm not trying to
> start
> a "Leave No Trace" debate about campfires, nor a "Ultra-lite Backpacking"
> flame about avoiding cooked food.  As an occasional treat, I like to use an
> alcohol stove for hot coffee, or warm cous-cous.  Is that so wrong?  I
> might
> never build a campfire on the PCT, and would never destroy vegetation.  But
> if I happen to be camped next to a pre-made fire pit on BLM land, with a
> stack of dead limbs near by, on a cold cold Fall night, I'd at least like
> to
> understand if making a fire is an option.
>
> Julian
>
>
AsABat