[pct-l] Pct-l Digest, Vol 25, Issue 136
Stephen Adams
reddirt2 at earthlink.net
Fri Jan 29 23:39:42 CST 2010
Canoeman has come over to the other side, where more beer, a sense of humor, and critical thinking collide...
On Jan 29, 2010, at 7:34 PM, Bill Burge wrote:
>
> Wow canoeman!
>
> Less beer or more spell checker! ;-)
>
> I use OHV areas and am considered an OHV when I'm off the pavement.
>
> Does THIS look like an SUV to YOU!?!?
>
> http://www.4footed.com/images/current.jpg
>
> Not a completely recent pic, but what the hay...
>
> I'm almost more insulted being called an "SUV" than being lumped in
> with the "those OHV people"! :-D
>
> har har har...
>
> BillB
>
>
>
> On Jan 29, 2010, at 7:13 PM, canoeman at qnet.com wrote:
>
>> Ya I dont think your getting the gist of my post.
>> A jeep is a licecneced highway vehicle that is used of road, it is
>> not a ohv
>> Dirt bikes quads, mules these are ohv's
>> ohv means not registered to go on highways.
>> this should clear this point up.
>> DIRT BIKES = OHV
>> JEEPS ARE SUV'S OR FOUR WHEEL DRIVE VEHICLES, not ohv,s
>>
>> canoeman
>>
>> Quoting pct-l-request at backcountry.net:
>>
>>> Send Pct-l mailing list submissions to
>>> pct-l at backcountry.net
>>>
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>>>
>>>
>>> Today's Topics:
>>>
>>> 1. Bounce bucket (Sean 'Miner' Nordeen)
>>> 2. Re: you are in the minority of ohv (Bill Burge)
>>> 3. Re: documentation of OHV abuse of PCT in Kern County (Bill
>>> Burge)
>>> 4. A way to defend against bears (Brick Robbins)
>>> 5. Re: documentation of OHV abuse of PCT in Kern County (dsaufley)
>>> 6. Re: The Ultimate Hiker Hosting Setup (Bill Burge)
>>> 7. Cheap synthetic sleeping bag (Austin Williams)
>>> 8. Re: Cheap synthetic sleeping bag (Steve McAllister)
>>>
>>>
>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>> Message: 1
>>> Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2010 16:10:20 -0800
>>> From: "Sean 'Miner' Nordeen" <sean at lifesadventures.net>
>>> Subject: [pct-l] Bounce bucket
>>> To: <pct-l at backcountry.net>
>>> Message-ID: <02CBF99AD78E4BABB0F4976C3536E725 at SeanDeskTop>
>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>>>
>>>> In the future I will use USPS Flat-Rate Priority boxes containing
>>>> only the
>>>> things I can't find on the trail (hiking socks, maps and guides,
>>> electronics
>>>> chargers, etc.)... and only bounce it to every 4th town or so.
>>>
>>> Flat Rate boxes may cost more to mail then sending it regular
>>> priority
>>> mail if you are only bouncing it a short distance (say a week or two
>>> ahead). I used the largest Priority Mail Box (non-flat rate) and it
>>> was
>>> cheaper to mail forward then the the smaller Large Sizse Flat Rate
>>> Box.
>>>
>>> -Miner
>>>
>>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> Check my 2009 PCT Journal out at www.postholer.com/Miner
>>>
>>> ------------------------------
>>>
>>> Message: 2
>>> Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2010 16:18:47 -0800
>>> From: Bill Burge <bill at burge.com>
>>> Subject: Re: [pct-l] you are in the minority of ohv
>>> To: Austin Williams <austinwilliams123 at gmail.com>
>>> Cc: pct-l at backcountry.net
>>> Message-ID: <8D98C052-CE10-470E-9EAB-AFE9BB07EAA6 at burge.com>
>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes
>>>
>>>
>>> Sorry to hear that, and I'm not surprised ('cause, apparently, I'm in
>>> the minority).
>>>
>>> BUT, when we're out with the Jeep, we go slow around kids and dogs
>>> (you never know when one you DON'T see is gonna pop out from
>>> somewhere!), slow around horses (while many are very well behaved
>>> that
>>> DO have a mind of there own and will sometimes do the unexpected when
>>> surprised), watch out for bikers, and always keep an eye out for
>>> hikers.
>>>
>>> I know that part of it is that I have gone on trail: (but not all at
>>> the same time!) with kids, on horseback, on foot, on mountain bike,
>>> on
>>> motorcycle, on ATV, and on snowshoe.
>>>
>>> Since I was raised in the desert, I know that if it's hot - stop and
>>> make sure the "hiker" you see isn't somebody who broke down a ways
>>> back. Make sure everyone has enough water (I carry about 8 gallons
>>> in
>>> my Jeep on a trail run, it's good for so many things). No matter
>>> what
>>> the mode of transportation someone is using, if they looks distressed
>>> or even unhappy - stop and say "everything all right here?"
>>>
>>> I pulled people who were stuck (and given a little advice
>>> afterwords -
>>> nothing in life is "free" ;-) I've lent tools. I've given rides to
>>> town. And I've given out a bunch of water.
>>>
>>> BillB
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Jan 29, 2010, at 2:51 PM, Austin Williams wrote:
>>>
>>>> Other than destroying the land we all love to hike in, I can also
>>>> say that
>>>> I've never met an OHVer that was anything close to kind or friendly
>>>> to me as
>>>> a hiker - at least not out on the trail. As if I'm the "gov'mt
>>>> liber'l comy
>>>> tryin'a take-way ther rites".
>>>>
>>>> Every other human - even the serious hunter-types - will wave back
>>>> when I
>>>> wave to them. These OHVers are the kind of people I go to the
>>>> backcountry
>>>> to get away from.
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Pct-l mailing list
>>>> Pct-l at backcountry.net
>>>> To unsubcribe, or change options visit:
>>>> http://mailman.backcountry.net/mailman/listinfo/pct-l
>>>>
>>>> List Archives:
>>>> http://mailman.backcountry.net/pipermail/pct-l/
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------
>>>
>>> Message: 3
>>> Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2010 16:24:57 -0800
>>> From: Bill Burge <bill at burge.com>
>>> Subject: Re: [pct-l] documentation of OHV abuse of PCT in Kern County
>>> To: PCT list <pct-l at backcountry.net>
>>> Message-ID: <48216CC2-3E53-435E-A2E1-08E2A14D5AC9 at burge.com>
>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes
>>>
>>>
>>> Originally, I didn't feel grouped. I was just trying to make that
>>> point. OK, that kinda went into the weeds! ;-)
>>>
>>> We are really looking forward to another year of ferrying hikers. It
>>> was crazy loads of fun.
>>>
>>> Funny, none of those wanting a ride to REI seemed to care they were
>>> doing it an Earth Wrecking Tattoo Causing (btw - I have no tattoos)
>>> Alcohol Inspiring Smog Belching Jeep. :-D (Besides, the Subaru was
>>> better at it and a smoother ride! ;-)
>>>
>>> BillB
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Jan 29, 2010, at 12:55 PM, dsaufley wrote:
>>>
>>>> For clarity, my intent is those OHVers who violate the rules and
>>>> postings
>>>> and destroy the land (and the posted signage, too). Those are the
>>>> OHV people
>>>> I can't understand. The good folks like you who ride responsibly and
>>>> don't
>>>> have "let's tear it up!" as their mantra and objective aren't really
>>>> an
>>>> issue. My apologies if you felt grouped in with those who behavior
>>>> and
>>>> attitude I find personally abhorrent. It was not my intent to paint
>>>> you with
>>>> the same brush. I will say however, on a different level I never
>>>> have
>>>> understood the need or experience much fun in using a motor to
>>>> derive
>>>> pleasure from the out-of-doors. My word to describe those folks is
>>>> "motorheads." My brother is a motorhead, and to some extent, so is
>>>> my son.
>>>> I'm not hard-wired as a motorhead. Motors have always been noisy,
>>>> smelly,
>>>> nuisances to me that disturb my serenity and enjoyment of the
>>>> subtler
>>>> sensory pleasures in nature.
>>>>
>>>> But that's why they have chocolate and vanilla. You're still the
>>>> best darn
>>>> hiker wrangler in the SCV no matter what :o)
>>>>
>>>> L-Rod
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: pct-l-bounces at backcountry.net [mailto:pct-l-bounces at backcountry.net
>>>> ]
>>>> On Behalf Of Bill Burge
>>>> Sent: Thursday, January 28, 2010 11:05 PM
>>>> To: PCT list
>>>> Subject: Re: [pct-l] documentation of OHV abuse of PCT in Kern
>>>> County
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> OK, when we say "these OHV people", what really mean is the type of
>>>> OHV person that would do this sort of thing and NOT OHV people in
>>>> general - right?
>>>>
>>>> I mean, "hikers cut trails and ruin land", no SOME hikers don't
>>>> stick
>>>> to the trail and DO damage land. Some hikers litter.
>>>>
>>>> Not all of either group.
>>>>
>>>> Yes, I have an OHV use vehicle. No, I don't drive on hiking trails.
>>>> Yes, I invest personal time doing road and trail work. When I take
>>>> the Jeep out, we pick up trash when we see it, no matter who left it
>>>> there.
>>>>
>>>> BillB
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Jan 28, 2010, at 9:59 PM, Brick Robbins wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>> There is something fundamentally different about these OHV people.
>>>>>> Somehow
>>>>>> they don't see the destruction, or don't care. I just don't get
>>>>>> it.
>>>>>
>>>>> They like it.
>>>>>
>>>>> "F*ck the tree huggers. The wild lands are mine to destroy as I
>>>>> please. Climate change is a liberal myth. Drill, Baby Drill!"
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Pct-l mailing list
>>>>> Pct-l at backcountry.net
>>>>> To unsubcribe, or change options visit:
>>>>> http://mailman.backcountry.net/mailman/listinfo/pct-l
>>>>>
>>>>> List Archives:
>>>>> http://mailman.backcountry.net/pipermail/pct-l/
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Pct-l mailing list
>>>> Pct-l at backcountry.net
>>>> To unsubcribe, or change options visit:
>>>> http://mailman.backcountry.net/mailman/listinfo/pct-l
>>>>
>>>> List Archives:
>>>> http://mailman.backcountry.net/pipermail/pct-l/
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------
>>>
>>> Message: 4
>>> Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2010 16:34:58 -0800
>>> From: Brick Robbins <brick at brickrobbins.com>
>>> Subject: [pct-l] A way to defend against bears
>>> To: PCT <pct-l at backcountry.net>
>>> Message-ID:
>>> <ca2c2381001291634q281c3b20t19646e8c9cbafbb3 at mail.gmail.com>
>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>>>
>>> A little lighter in tone than the ohv video
>>>
>>> http://icanhascheezburger.com/2010/01/27/funny-pictures-video-bear-vs-kitteh/
>>>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------
>>>
>>> Message: 5
>>> Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2010 16:42:27 -0800
>>> From: "dsaufley" <dsaufley at sprynet.com>
>>> Subject: Re: [pct-l] documentation of OHV abuse of PCT in Kern County
>>> To: "'Bill Burge'" <bill at burge.com>, "'PCT list'"
>>> <pct-l at backcountry.net>
>>> Message-ID: <001b01caa145$1970d200$4c527600$@com>
>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>>>
>>> You have your feet firmly planted in two worlds! BTW, they also
>>> used to
>>> drive the Earth Wrecking Tattoo Causing Alcohol Inspiring Smog
>>> Belching
>>> Suburban and Ford F350 king-cab pickup we used to lend them! Looking
>>> forward to another great season. Hey, Helen's mom goes to my
>>> dentist and
>>> dear friend, Clare Macaulay.
>>>
>>> L-Rod
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: pct-l-bounces at backcountry.net [mailto:pct-l-bounces at backcountry.net
>>> ]
>>> On Behalf Of Bill Burge
>>> Sent: Friday, January 29, 2010 4:25 PM
>>> To: PCT list
>>> Subject: Re: [pct-l] documentation of OHV abuse of PCT in Kern County
>>>
>>>
>>> Originally, I didn't feel grouped. I was just trying to make that
>>> point. OK, that kinda went into the weeds! ;-)
>>>
>>> We are really looking forward to another year of ferrying hikers. It
>>> was crazy loads of fun.
>>>
>>> Funny, none of those wanting a ride to REI seemed to care they were
>>> doing it an Earth Wrecking Tattoo Causing (btw - I have no tattoos)
>>> Alcohol Inspiring Smog Belching Jeep. :-D (Besides, the Subaru was
>>> better at it and a smoother ride! ;-)
>>>
>>> BillB
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Jan 29, 2010, at 12:55 PM, dsaufley wrote:
>>>
>>>> For clarity, my intent is those OHVers who violate the rules and
>>>> postings
>>>> and destroy the land (and the posted signage, too). Those are the
>>>> OHV people
>>>> I can't understand. The good folks like you who ride responsibly and
>>>> don't
>>>> have "let's tear it up!" as their mantra and objective aren't really
>>>> an
>>>> issue. My apologies if you felt grouped in with those who behavior
>>>> and
>>>> attitude I find personally abhorrent. It was not my intent to paint
>>>> you with
>>>> the same brush. I will say however, on a different level I never
>>>> have
>>>> understood the need or experience much fun in using a motor to
>>>> derive
>>>> pleasure from the out-of-doors. My word to describe those folks is
>>>> "motorheads." My brother is a motorhead, and to some extent, so is
>>>> my son.
>>>> I'm not hard-wired as a motorhead. Motors have always been noisy,
>>>> smelly,
>>>> nuisances to me that disturb my serenity and enjoyment of the
>>>> subtler
>>>> sensory pleasures in nature.
>>>>
>>>> But that's why they have chocolate and vanilla. You're still the
>>>> best darn
>>>> hiker wrangler in the SCV no matter what :o)
>>>>
>>>> L-Rod
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: pct-l-bounces at backcountry.net [mailto:pct-l-bounces at backcountry.net
>>>> ]
>>>> On Behalf Of Bill Burge
>>>> Sent: Thursday, January 28, 2010 11:05 PM
>>>> To: PCT list
>>>> Subject: Re: [pct-l] documentation of OHV abuse of PCT in Kern
>>>> County
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> OK, when we say "these OHV people", what really mean is the type of
>>>> OHV person that would do this sort of thing and NOT OHV people in
>>>> general - right?
>>>>
>>>> I mean, "hikers cut trails and ruin land", no SOME hikers don't
>>>> stick
>>>> to the trail and DO damage land. Some hikers litter.
>>>>
>>>> Not all of either group.
>>>>
>>>> Yes, I have an OHV use vehicle. No, I don't drive on hiking trails.
>>>> Yes, I invest personal time doing road and trail work. When I take
>>>> the Jeep out, we pick up trash when we see it, no matter who left it
>>>> there.
>>>>
>>>> BillB
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Jan 28, 2010, at 9:59 PM, Brick Robbins wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>> There is something fundamentally different about these OHV people.
>>>>>> Somehow
>>>>>> they don't see the destruction, or don't care. I just don't get
>>>>>> it.
>>>>>
>>>>> They like it.
>>>>>
>>>>> "F*ck the tree huggers. The wild lands are mine to destroy as I
>>>>> please. Climate change is a liberal myth. Drill, Baby Drill!"
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Pct-l mailing list
>>>>> Pct-l at backcountry.net
>>>>> To unsubcribe, or change options visit:
>>>>> http://mailman.backcountry.net/mailman/listinfo/pct-l
>>>>>
>>>>> List Archives:
>>>>> http://mailman.backcountry.net/pipermail/pct-l/
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Pct-l mailing list
>>>> Pct-l at backcountry.net
>>>> To unsubcribe, or change options visit:
>>>> http://mailman.backcountry.net/mailman/listinfo/pct-l
>>>>
>>>> List Archives:
>>>> http://mailman.backcountry.net/pipermail/pct-l/
>>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Pct-l mailing list
>>> Pct-l at backcountry.net
>>> To unsubcribe, or change options visit:
>>> http://mailman.backcountry.net/mailman/listinfo/pct-l
>>>
>>> List Archives:
>>> http://mailman.backcountry.net/pipermail/pct-l/
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------
>>>
>>> Message: 6
>>> Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2010 16:43:14 -0800
>>> From: Bill Burge <bill at burge.com>
>>> Subject: Re: [pct-l] The Ultimate Hiker Hosting Setup
>>> To: PCT list <pct-l at backcountry.net>
>>> Message-ID: <62D90FEA-5ADE-4178-96E3-CB82C212A02F at burge.com>
>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes
>>>
>>>
>>> It IS beautiful! I hear what you are saying about competing with
>>> existing angels.
>>>
>>> My GF and I were day hiking a portion of the trail through Vasquez
>>> Rocks park and saw this house that was right next to the trail and
>>> thought, this would be awesome to live right on the trail and host
>>> hikers.
>>>
>>> Then we realized that no one would stay with US unless Donna/
>>> HikerHeaven was FULL. Most of the time what we'd hear is "can you
>>> tell me how much further it is to Hiker Heaven?"
>>>
>>> You just can't compete with some things and I wouldn't even want to.
>>> I've seen Hiker Heaven in full swing and it's awesome. It's even
>>> more
>>> impressive when you see it perpendicular to the hiker view.
>>>
>>> The hiker comes in and is there for "two nearo's and a zero" and they
>>> get one view. But we got to see it over the course of a few weeks
>>> (we
>>> live about 15 mins away) and it's very different and even MORE
>>> impressive. Think of it as looking onto a track and seeing someone
>>> do
>>> a 100 meter sprint - flat out diving across the finish. Then imagine
>>> what it would be like to stop and see that the same runner had done
>>> that same diving finish, flat out sprint, 10 times in a row already
>>> and was going on to do 10 more. Then imagine how you'd feel. We
>>> need
>>> to invent a Gold Medal for Donna! I can't even dream of how she does
>>> it.
>>>
>>> BillB
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Jan 29, 2010, at 4:02 PM, Diane at Santa Barbara Hikes dot com
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> You'd end up competing with Firefly for hiker trash. It's really
>>>> close to her house. You'd compete with Drakesbad, too. I don't think
>>>> anybody could compete with either of those two!
>>>>
>>>> Last summer while hiking the PCT out of Ashland near Dead Indian Rd.
>>>> there was a really nice property for sale. They even put the listing
>>>> information out on the trail.
>>>>
>>>> On Jan 29, 2010, at 1:54 PM, pct-l-request at backcountry.net wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> http://tinyurl.com/ye2k86u
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Pct-l mailing list
>>>> Pct-l at backcountry.net
>>>> To unsubcribe, or change options visit:
>>>> http://mailman.backcountry.net/mailman/listinfo/pct-l
>>>>
>>>> List Archives:
>>>> http://mailman.backcountry.net/pipermail/pct-l/
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------
>>>
>>> Message: 7
>>> Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2010 16:45:37 -0800
>>> From: Austin Williams <austinwilliams123 at gmail.com>
>>> Subject: [pct-l] Cheap synthetic sleeping bag
>>> To: pct-l at backcountry.net
>>> Message-ID:
>>> <bdb32ad91001291645j3359937atd00f0c1a05af16c6 at mail.gmail.com>
>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>>>
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> I think it was last week that someone was talking about synthetic
>>> bags. I
>>> found a 15 degree (F) synthetic sleeping bag that weighs under 3
>>> lbs and
>>> costs under $80. It's the cheapest I've ever seen:
>>>
>>>
>> <http://rcm.amazon.com/e/cm?t=plyohi-20&o=1&p=8&l=as1&asins=B000RUJK0Y&fc1=000000&IS2=1<1=_blank&m=amazon&lc1=0000FF&bc1=000000&bg1=FFFFFF&f=ifr
>>> Here's
>>> the
>>>
>> link<http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000RUJK0Y?ie=UTF8&tag=plyohi-20&linkCode=as2&camp=1789&creative=9325&creativeASIN=B000RUJK0Y
>>>
>>>
>>> I think Campmor also carries it, just slightly more expensive.
>>> Hard to beat
>>> that without switching to down.
>>>
>>> --
>>> Austin Williams
>>> PlanYourHike.com
>>>
>>> "The mountains are calling and I must go." -John Muir
>>>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------
>>>
>>> Message: 8
>>> Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2010 19:57:36 -0500
>>> From: Steve McAllister <brooklynkayak at gmail.com>
>>> Subject: Re: [pct-l] Cheap synthetic sleeping bag
>>> To: Pacific Crest Trail List <pct-l at backcountry.net>
>>> Message-ID:
>>> <e38b9fd81001291657k3f456b4cof87354c7e95c7978 at mail.gmail.com>
>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>>>
>>> I wouldn't trust the temp. rating and I'll bet it weighs more than
>>> they
>>> claim.
>>>
>>> stevie
>>>
>>> ############
>>>
>>> On Fri, Jan 29, 2010 at 7:45 PM, Austin Williams
>>> <austinwilliams123 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Hi,
>>>>
>>>> I think it was last week that someone was talking about synthetic
>>>> bags. ?I
>>>> found a 15 degree (F) synthetic sleeping bag that weighs under 3
>>>> lbs and
>>>> costs under $80. ?It's the cheapest I've ever seen:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>> <http://rcm.amazon.com/e/cm?t=plyohi-20&o=1&p=8&l=as1&asins=B000RUJK0Y&fc1=000000&IS2=1<1=_blank&m=amazon&lc1=0000FF&bc1=000000&bg1=FFFFFF&f=ifr
>>> Here's
>>>> the
>>>
>> link<http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000RUJK0Y?ie=UTF8&tag=plyohi-20&linkCode=as2&camp=1789&creative=9325&creativeASIN=B000RUJK0Y
>>>
>>>>
>>>> I think Campmor also carries it, just slightly more expensive. ?
>>>> Hard to
>>> beat
>>>> that without switching to down.
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Austin Williams
>>>> PlanYourHike.com
>>>>
>>>> "The mountains are calling and I must go." ? -John Muir
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Pct-l mailing list
>>>> Pct-l at backcountry.net
>>>> To unsubcribe, or change options visit:
>>>> http://mailman.backcountry.net/mailman/listinfo/pct-l
>>>>
>>>> List Archives:
>>>> http://mailman.backcountry.net/pipermail/pct-l/
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> If you look good and dress well, you don't need a purpose in life.
>>> -- Robert Pante, fashion consultant
>>>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Pct-l mailing list
>>> Pct-l at backcountry.net
>>> To unsubcribe, or change options visit:
>>> http://mailman.backcountry.net/mailman/listinfo/pct-l
>>>
>>> List Archives:
>>> http://mailman.backcountry.net/pipermail/pct-l/
>>>
>>>
>>> End of Pct-l Digest, Vol 25, Issue 136
>>> **************************************
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
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>
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