[pct-l] Re: MOre horse tips

[dsaufley at sprynet.com (dsaufley@sprynet.com)]

I saw the most amazing photographs this weekend of something I would have thought was impossible.

To Joanne's point about horses hearing/smelling/sensing things we are not aware of, a group of horse riders, along with someone with a mule, and a couple of dogs out were riding somewhere (I'm trying to get the specific details of where, who, and when -- not even sure if it happened in California).  

When they came to a spot to stop and rest, the mule deliberately bucked its rider off, and when charging off into the brush.  There the mule encountered a mountain lion that had been stalking the party (no one knew this up until that moment).  The mule proceeded to kick and trample the mountain lion to death, and then proceeded to trash and toss about the lion's lifeless body.  If I didn't see the pictures, I wouldn't believe it.  

The funny thing was the two dogs in the background, keeping a safe distance.  Apparently everyone in the party felt bad about the mountain lion's demise. 

-=Donna Saufley=-


-----Original Message-----
From: Joanne Lennox <goforth@cnw.com>
Sent: Dec 6, 2004 12:38 PM
To: dsaufley@sprynet.com, Robert Ellinwood <rellinwood@worldnet.att.net>, 
	pct-l@mailman.backcountry.net
Subject: MOre horse tips

Having had a lot of trail and horse miles both as a thruhiker and a 
thrurider, I can say I have encountered very few problems. The thruhikers 
have been great, and exemplery in every way.  Most of the problems that I 
have encountered are from less experienced hikers.  I might add a few 
comments.

Every horse is learning about hikers from every encounter.  The horse is 
being trained what to expect from hikers.  If the encounter is really 
negative, the consequences may not happen in the intial bad experience but 
in subsequent encounters.  A hiker can teach a horse that he really has 
something to fear from hikers, and a horse 's response will be to run away 
to a safe distance and then look and evaluate the situation, and the inital 
fear flight can be dangerous. In Oregon a thruhiker was approaching my horse 
which I was leading and he obviously wanted to approach and pet the horse. 
I stopped and talked to the hiker.  The hiker put his poles in one hand and 
was riveted on the horse, hand out.  Just as he approached the horse he 
tripped hard, rocketed forward, and nailed the horse in the nose with the 
end of his hiking poles.  Hopi shot backwards at impressive speed.  The guy 
was appalled and apoligized profusely.  Horses don't necessarily understand 
apologies. Incredibly, it happened again the next day!!.  Hopi, who was 
finishing his second mexico to Canada trip(He is a thruhiker!!), decided 
that these hikers were not good guys after all, and that they smelled bad, 
and he would warn me well in advance of any encounter (he would often sense 
a hiker approaching 5 minutes before and without any indication that I could 
sense). Approach a horse slowly and if you want to touch him, as you 
approach go tothe side, where he can see you(his eyes are on the side of his 
head not the front).

Near Mc Kenzie Pass in Or, I encounter a large church group that was day 
hiking.  They were split into two groups on each side of the trail.  As I 
passed a number of people on one side of the trail, suddenly stood up, and 
hopi spooked hard, spinning me around and pulling me down, rope burning my 
hand.  Horses are particularily sensitive about any sudden moves made near 
their back, and have a fear of tight spots(two hikers standing one on each 
side of the trail, two close trees, rocks that hit their sides on a steep 
sidehilling trail, between trailers or cars, etc.). So step to the the same 
side of the trail, and allow a few moments after the horse has passed before 
stepping onto the trail.

Hiking poles are real problems for equestrians.  Going down into the Feather 
River gorge(southbound), Hopi suddenly got really afraid( snorting, 
prancing, stomping, balking); the trail was narrow, covered with slick oak 
leaves, and on steep unstable sidehill.  I had learned that if I could not 
figure what was upsetting him, it probably was the smell of a cat or bear, 
or something he was hearing that he could not see or make sense of.  I 
stopped and started to yell "hello", then I could hear the clicking of 
trekking poles around the a rock point on the trail.  Some voices responded 
and I asked them to put their poles in their hands and as we rounded the 
point, they stepped to the uphill side of the trail (the downhill side was 
slick).  Hopi relaxed somewhat when he was able to see the hikers, but as we 
went by  one , he shifted and his water bottle exited the a lower pocket of 
his pack.  We all watched the bottle roll and bounce down the steep slope. 
I felt terrible, and offered one of mine.  the hiker declined and against my 
advice, started down the slope after the bottle.  He went about 20 feet 
before realizing the folly, and turning around. I was very uneasy until he 
regained the trail.  Horses are very aware of sounds and smells and these 
can cause as much apprehension as visual encounters.  Moreso , when the 
cause is invisible.  Once, I was going down a trail, and a bicyle was in 
front, my horse was fine with the bicyle until it rounded a corner and he 
could not see it!!  At which point, he was sure that it was lurking in the 
bushes somewhere.When you step off the trail, stay in plain sight, do not 
step behind a tree, where the horse may be suddenly startled at seeing you.

Especially in the Sierras and near the Desolation wilderness, I ran into a 
number of hikers that would not respond to my greeting, and when I appealed 
to them to talk, they arrogantly brushed by both me and the horse.  I feel 
that it is rude and dangerous to brush against either of us on a trail.  The 
horse is trained to respond to pressure, and will step sideways if he is 
brushed on the side. If you brush against a horse at the back, he is likely 
to step forward near or on the rider.  At least have the same courtesy that 
is shown to other hikers or people.

Do not allow a horse to invade your space!!  My horses are taught to respect 
my space and I respect theirs (arms length).  If a horse is nuzzling your 
chest or your pockets, he is learning that he does not have to respect your 
space and probably can do what he wants.  Yes, he probably is nuzzling for 
treats, but he may decide to start exploring smells with his teeth.  Say 
something to the horse owner ( "I am not comfortable with this behavior"), 
and push the horse's nose away from you( If the owner has let his horse get 
away with this, you will have to do it repeatedly or step back far enough 
that he is not tempted). A horse that will invade your space, may not think 
much about stepping on your feet either.

Never approach any horse  without asking the owner or if the horse is alone. 
You do not know anything about the horse, he does not know anything about 
you.  Horses are large animals and can be dangerous; it is much better to be 
cautious. I would not approach a dog without talking to its owner; a horse 
outweights a dog by about 1000 pounds, and a dog does not have the same fear 
responses as a prey animal like a horse.

If you approach a horse do it much as you would a dog: slowly, from the 
side, hands at your sides, then  allowing him to smell the BACK of your 
hand, talk quietly.  Making hard eye contact, pointing your fingers forward, 
standing square to the front of a horse are strong signals  that you are a 
predator, and will make even a well trained horse slightly uneasy.

Horses are tremendously sensitive to the signals that you are sending out, 
and can be an avenue to learning how you interact with the world.  They are 
much more aware of their environment than we are and can teach us to be more 
aware.  I have learned many things on the PCT with my horse that I never 
noticed before when I was doing the PCThiking; it has opened a whole new 
realm of awareness in the wilderness.  All relationships allow us to absorb 
more from our environment and enrich our lives.

Goforth
----- Original Message ----- 
From: <dsaufley@sprynet.com>
To: "Robert Ellinwood" <rellinwood@worldnet.att.net>; 
<pct-l@mailman.backcountry.net>
Sent: Saturday, December 04, 2004 6:53 PM
Subject: RE: [pct-l] Donna's horse encounter tips


> LOL!
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Robert Ellinwood <rellinwood@worldnet.att.net>
> Sent: Dec 4, 2004 5:05 PM
> To: dsaufley@sprynet.com, pct-l@mailman.backcountry.net
> Subject: RE: [pct-l] Donna's horse encounter tips
>
> Donna,
>
>>Be aware of what you look like to the horse
>
> To the HORSE?   How about to the rest of humanity?  I know a guy who never
> once combed his hair and rarely washed his clothes, much less the rest of
> his body.  Hey, the horse can just be amused.  We have to walk with him 
> (or
> her).
>
>> keep your arms down to your sides
>
> PUHLEEZE!!!!!  And check the wind direction before doing otherwise.
>
>> Be aware that you will smell very interesting
>
> Interesting?  Well, I guess diplomacy really is one of your strong 
> suits...
>
>
> Carry on... still good advice.
>
> Dr Bob
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: pct-l-bounces@mailman.backcountry.net [mailto:pct-l-
>> bounces@mailman.backcountry.net] On Behalf Of dsaufley@sprynet.com
>> Sent: Saturday, December 04, 2004 7:04 PM
>> To: dude; pct-l@mailman.backcountry.net
>> Subject: Re: [pct-l] Donna's horse encounter tips
>>
>> Thanks for asking.  Coming upon horses from the rear, what you don't do 
>> is
> important as what
>> you do!  Communication is the key.
>>
>> -    Don't come directly up on the rear of the horse under any
> circumstances (encountering
>> them anywhere).  Some kick, and they have an amazing long reach with 
>> those
> back legs.  The
>> way their eyes are placed in their heads, it is easiest for them to see
> you if you approach
>> them from the side or diagonally.
>>
>> -    As in approaching from the front, talk to the rider and let them 
>> know
> you need to pass,
>> and ask what they'd prefer you do.  Don't wave your arms or whistle, or
> anything like that to
>> get the rider's attention.  Once the horses are aware you are there,
> they'll likely be turning
>> their heads to see you, which helps.
>>
>> -    Remember that most horses freak out with blowing/moving plastic bags
> of any sort; they
>> don't know it's not alive.  Blowing silnylon could have the same effect.
> Keep this in mind if
>> you're wearing a poncho on a windy day!
>>
>> -    Be aware of what you look like to the horse, and how your appearance
> could startle it.
>> For example, if you have a smaller pack that has a low profile on your
> body, it will be less
>> alarming to the horse than one that distorts the profile of your body
> (like above the
>> shoulder line), or has moving objects on it.  This is especially true if
> you're drying your socks
>> and underwear on it and bags or things bobbling around on it such as a
> water jug.  Even hats
>> contribute to making you have a very different outline than "normal
> humans."
>>
>> -    If you have trekking poles, carry them in one hand, close to your
> body, and away from the
>> horse.  If you're carrying an umbrella, especially the shiny, noisy, 
>> mylar
> & duct tape type,
>> best to have it closed and held down low and away from the horse.
>>
>> -    When you walk by the horse in the location instructed by the rider,
> talk to it in a soothing
>> voice, and keep your arms down to your sides, or tucked close to your
> body.  Again, no sudden,
>> jerky moves.
>>
>> -    Truck on :o) and kick up as much dust as you can!
>>
>>
>> If you want to stop and visit with the horse, ask the rider if it's okay.
>>
>> -    Ideally, take off your pack, and put down your trekking poles.
>>
>> -    Never reach suddenly for their faces; instead, pet their neck and
> work your hand forward
>> toward their face, if they're receptive (not pulling away from you).
>>
>> -    Be aware that you will smell very interesting and different than a
> "normal humans" to the
>> horse ;o)  They will want to check your scent out, some of them even 
>> enjoy
> smelling your
>> breath.
>>
>> -    Enjoy this brief encounter, since this is a close as any other 
>> living
> creature may want to
>> get to you until you hit the showers!
>>
>> -=Donna Saufley=-
>>
>> p.s. I just spent the better part of the day "ground driving" my two work
> horses around the
>> neighborhood.  Ground driving is working them with a harness on, while 
>> you
> walk behind them,
>> as you would with a hand plow.  I'm in training to realize my pipe dream
> of using my two big
>> monsters for trail maintenance projects, pulling stumps, logs, boulders,
> etc., or simply packing
>> in tools for the crews.  Not to mention my other dream of getting a wagon
> to give hikers
>> rides to and from town!
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: dude <dude@fastmail.ca>
>> Sent: Dec 4, 2004 10:38 AM
>> To: pct-l@mailman.backcountry.net
>> Subject: Re: [pct-l] Donna's horse encounter tips
>>
>> what if you are behind horses and faster than they are?  what is the
>> best way to ask them to yield to you so that you do not have to
>> constantly eat their dust?
>>
>>
>> >
>> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>> > -------------------------------
>> > Some tips to keep in mind when encountering horses on the trail to
>> > prevent them from spooking:
>> >
>> > -   Stop at a safe distance.
>> >
>> > -   Greet and talk to the rider, and ask them what they'd like you to
>> > do. This does two things:  you find out the rider's preference and
>> > what works or doesn't work with that particular animal (and boy, can
>> > they be different). You also let the horse know you are a human.  This
>> > is especially important if you have appendages like a backpack,
>> > umbrella, or bike.  The horse may literally not recognize you as
>> > human, and your voice helps them identify you.
>> >
>> > -   Unless a rider tells you to, it's never a good idea to go onto the
>> > uphill side of the trail -- horses have a natural fear of things
>> > taller than them, and being flight animals, you could imperil the
>> > rider and horse.
>> >
>> > -   Stand still and talk to the horse in a soothing voice as it passes
>> > you, for the same reasons stated above.
>> >
>> > -   Don't move off too fast after you've been passed by the horse; let
>> > a little distance happen and then move out without jerky or rapid
>> > movements.
>> >
>> > -=Donna Saufley=-
>> >
>> >
>> >
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