[pct-l] RE: The Electronic Backpacker [long] - thread from the Camping List

[reynolds@iLAN.com (Reynolds, WT)]

Bob-
You will observe that I did not provide and information about your name or
email address. I carefully scrubbed this. Yes we have been here before. I
will unsuscribe and stay unsubscribed this time.
 
Have a good hike all!
 
Tom

-----Original Message-----
From: Bob Moulder [mailto:cmoulder@nyc.rr.com]
Sent: Thursday, July 19, 2001 5:20 AM
To: Kerry Knudsen; 'Reynolds, WT'; Camping List (E-mail);
pct-l@backcountry.net
Subject: Re: The Electronic Backpacker [long] - thread from the Camping List


To all, but especially Tom,
 
>From Rob's Campinglist website --
 
"Privacy Statement. Your name, e-mail address, and any other information you
may provide, will be used exclusively for purposes of maintaining the
Camping List. Information you provide will never be provided to other
parties."
 
I would submit to you that "other parties" includes pct-l, and that if it is
Rob's policy not to provide names and e-mail addresses to other parties,
then it is also not permitted for other Campinglist members to "back door"
Rob's policy.
 
Once and for all, Tom (and anybody else, though it doesn't seem to be an
issue with anybody else), please don't forward -- Never, ever -- anybody's
messages to anybody else in the Entire Freakin' Universe for Any Reason
without specific, explicit permission from each party involved for each and
every message you might propose to forward.
 
Seems we've discussed this before, eh?
 
-- Bob

----- Original Message ----- 
From: Kerry Knudsen <mailto:kknudsen@home.com>  
To: 'Reynolds, WT' <mailto:reynolds@iLAN.com>  ; Camping List (E-mail)
<mailto:campinglist@gentleye.com>  ; pct-l@backcountry.net
<mailto:pct-l@backcountry.net>  
Sent: Thursday, July 19, 2001 6:56 AM
Subject: RE: The Electronic Backpacker [long] - thread from the Camping List

You must be a Catholic, Tom, answering a question with a question. To answer
your question, it would be absolutely peachy if some of them joined. Of
course, there is no evidence they either have or will. Further, as indicated
by my forwarding of the rejection I got from them, they have no interest in
what I have to say directly. The do, however, seem interested to let you
forward selected messages from me. I could speculate on many reasons why
they would want to read my messages but not allow me to participate
directly, but I don't have enough evidence to form a conclusion. I certainly
would reject any implication on your part that you did this for promotional
reasons.
 
So I will ask you again, why on earth are you compiling and forwarding MY
messages to pct-l? You must recall we have been down this road before, Tom.
Since the outcome was not particularly enjoyable for anybody, I am really
shocked that we are back in the same spot. Your communications GPS must have
failed. Even if you decided (as you clearly did) to ignore the last time and
forward my messages to a group I have not evaluated for its worth, I would
have thought you would not make it public.
 
As an aside, I find it REALLY irritating to Reply to All on a private
discussion list and then get a snotty response from some West Coast halfwit
telling me I'm not qualified to speak in his presence.
 
But I digress. Why on earth are you compiling and forwarding my messages to
the halfwit and his domain?
 
kk

-----Original Message-----
From: Reynolds, WT [mailto:reynolds@iLAN.com]
Sent: Monday, July 16, 2001 7:49 PM
To: 'kknudsen@home.com'; Reynolds, WT
Subject: RE: The Electronic Backpacker [long] - thread from the Camping List


I would be nice if some of them joined, eh?

-----Original Message-----
From: Kerry Knudsen [mailto:kerryknudsen@yahoo.com]
Sent: Monday, July 16, 2001 4:45 PM
To: Reynolds, WT; Campinglist (E-mail); pct-l@backcountry.net
Subject: Re: The Electronic Backpacker [long] - thread from the Camping List



Why on earth are you compiling and forwarding our messages to pct-l? 


kk 


  "Reynolds, WT" <reynolds@iLAN.com> wrote: 




Message [Tom to All]
Subject: The Electronic Backpacker
Synopsis: The pros and cons of electronics on the trail

Message 1 [Tom to all]
Next week I am trying my electronic backpacker approach. The components are
an eTREK SUMMIT GPS that combines compass, altimeter and GPS into a 5 ounce
package along with maps output from Topo! electronic maps. I will leave my
trusty USGS maps and standard compass and altimeter at home and try to
follow a trail through many trail junctions through Giant Forest in Sequoia
National Park. Naturally I will carry my satellite phone in case I get in
trouble.

Message 2 [Bob to all]

"Hello, 911 Operator -- How may I help you?"

"Come get me, I've twisted my ankle."

"Where are you?"

"Somewhere in the Sequoia National Park."

"Sir, can you be a little more specific than that?"

"No, my GPS batteries died yesterday afternoon, and I found out that my
replacements shorted out in my pack and they're dead, too. So I'm about a
day's walk south of Smart Bear Lake, as best I can figure. I've been
chatting with my stock broker and my accountant, so the phone battery's
pretty low on juice as well. Anyhow, I planned ahead so I'd have enough
power to finish this call, and maybe another. Anyway, Cisco's tanking for
real -- get out while you still can."

"Oh, uh, so what was the last sign you passed on the trail."

"Well, it came a gullywasher yesterday afternoon and I kind of got off trail
looking for a place to avoid lightning bolts. I zigged and zagged through
the woods and found this really neat little overhang, almost like a cave.
Anyway, after the storm was over I circled around for a couple of hours and
just couldn't find the damn trail again. So I just decided to continue
south, or what I assume is south. That's how I twisted my ankle, hiking on
this rough stuff off trail. The Sun was to my left as I departed camp this
morning, so that's basically south, isn't it?"

"Okay, about where do you think you are on your map?"

"Map? Who needs maps? I've got a chair, though."

"Have a nice day."

* Bob


Message 3 [Don to Tom]

Tom, this should be interesting. I still do not have a GPS. On my recent
trip, I was not sure where a trail junction was and exactly how far my
destination lake was [ie, a couple of hundred yards or 3/4 mile?]. I
figured a GPS would have told me, and I thought at the time about whether I
wished I had one with me. I did not come to any definitive conclusion.

=====
Don Horst

Message 4 [Tom to Don]

My GPS process is designed to identify trail junctions. When I simply used a
compass I was unsure if a trail junction was one marked on the map or an
unmarked trail. Basically, I relied on the signs. When I purchased an
altimeter things were more accurate but I was still unsure. My process is.

1-Map the trail in Topo!
2-Ask topo! to create a route.
3-Download the route.

I will be testing this process first in Giant Forest where many trails
intersect and later on a cross country to North Glacier Pass where I picked
the best route based on the map. We'll see.

I am carrying a satellite phone for two reasons. First is the example you
cited. Another example is a hiker who died last year climbing New Army Pass
in the winter. He was able to get into his sleeping bag but died there. A
working satellite phone would have saved him. The second, however, is the
storm front that descended on our hike last year. If Ginnie had not heard
about it on the radio we would have been snowed in.

Tom

Message 5 [KK to all]
I had a pertinent experience this spring. Two friends and I headed out from
our base camp to find a lake appropriately named Lost Lake. We left the
canoes behind to see if we could find the lake and a reasonable portage. 
All I had was my map and compass. And, when we arrived to what should have
been the end of the trail, there was an intersection instead. 
We followed one for about 500 meters, but then I stopped and showed them on
the map where a height of land should have been on our left and appeared to
be on our right. I suggested we return to the intersection, which we did. 
Then we took the other fork. Again, we started going up when we should have
been going down, so I suggested we return to the intersection. Given the
information given us by the land itself, and the information on the map, I
struck a bearing and told my friends the lake should be 300 meters or less
on a line, and I pointed. 
Based on my projections, we cut off the trail and in minutes were in sight
of the lake. 
My friends were amazed. I was not. I cannot imagine relying on a GPS to do
what you cannot do yourself with a map and compass. Heck, Magellan didn't
even have a map. If you can orient yourself with a map and compass, you
should still carry one while you play with the GPS. 
Not that I don't think GPSes work. Ask Sadam Hussein. It's just that they
rely on batteries and human input before they revert right back to the same
map you have to use in the first place. 
The unfortunate end to my story is that the portage was too arduous for my
friends to undertake, so Lost Lake, though found, is still as good as lost.
No trails to it. 
kk 
Message 6 [Bob to all]
First there are the batteries to rely upon. Then there are the satellites.
Both are made by man, and both fail from time to time. Heck, one good
meteor shower might knock a number of geosynchronous satellites out. We
can't take things for granted. Some people used to take electricity for
granted in California. The GPS runs on electricity too. At least with the
compass, us old fashioned folks only have to worry about the compass that
was made by man, which doesn't have batteries. So it doesn't "run down''.
And the magnetic field is hard to mess up even if it does move around some.
I'm sure other backpackers holding their fancy GPS and Leki poles would
laugh at my leaning against my old dead wooden stick from the forest while I
take a compass reading.

One thing I do with doesn't fit my own philosophy though is the Zzip
stove. It runs on a battery . And I doubt if it would cook well w/o the
battery power, though I would just build an open fire instead if that
happened and my food just had to be cooked. -Bob in Okla

Message 6a [Tom to all]
I think everyone on this list can read a map. However a map is a problem
when you are in dense forest or in a canyon where you have nothing to site
on. An altimeter solves this problem somewhat because your altitude will
tend to tell you how far down a canyon you are. What a GPS appears to do
better is:

1-Differentiate trail junctions. Are we where we think we are? We all know
how accurate maps aren't.
2-Allow you to retrace your route. It is possible to get lost within 300
meters and never find the trail again.
3-Accurately follow a cross-country route. Sometimes a simple cross-country
can save miles. You simply lay out the route on a map and create a waypoint
route. Naturally your route will vary based on terrain features but you will
still wind up at the right notch.

Re: . I'm sure other backpackers holding their fancy GPS and Leki poles
would laugh at my leaning against my old dead wooden stick from the forest
while I take a compass reading. 

Yep because the electronic gadgets are simply better as are the Leki poles.
That an electronic device can fail begs the question. Mt watch has a compass
and an altimeter so I have a backup if necessary. The real question is how
can I find where I am faster and more accurately.

That a satellite phone can also fail is true but also begs the question.
When it works it can save my life! Smoke signals simply won't get it.

I know that to many people these gadgets take the fun out of backpacking.
Not to me. If they do to you don't use em.

Hike your own hike.

Tom

Message 7 [KK to all]
For me, much of the challenge of camping is in being able to weather a storm
instead of going home. 
For me, much of the challenge of camping is being able to find my way in and
out of places without a guide, electronic or otherwise. 
For me, much of the challenge of camping is being able to catch fish pretty
much on demand, knowing over 500 species of edible wild mushrooms and how to
hunt and gather. 
For me, much of the challenge of camping is being able to cook better than
almost anybody, making do with what I have. 
For me, much of the joy of camping is having no telephone at all. 
I have used a satellite phone, eaten boil-in-a-bag, hired a guide and bailed
out to a hotel. However, each time I felt I had copped out. I am an
independent sort. 
As for your three points, I think a map and compass allows you to
differentiate trail junctions, and the GPS system relies on the same maps. A
map and compass also allows you to retrace your route. Naturally, a bunch of
extraneous trails from overuse makes it more challenging. Like a suburb. And
a map and compass are perfect for following a cross-country route. That is
exactly what I illustrated by my example. 
I am not trying to argue, Tom, that GPSes don't work. However, I can't
imagine anybody would seriously argue that a map and compass doesn't work.
GPSes, boil-in-bags and satellite phones all work. They just stretch my view
of wilderness camping. 
kk 

Message 8 {Bob to KK]
Good points all, especially the fishing and cooking parts.

For me, much of the fun lies in researching a trip, studying the maps and
landforms, and figuring compass bearings from key locations. What astonishes
me is the number of people using compasses who don't know the magnetic
declination for the area they're in, or can't recognize a cliff on a topo
map. Seems to me that with GPS a lot of newbies are just plugging in
coordinates for point A and B while overlooking the stuff in between.

In my experience there are two kinds of navigation: everyday navigation and
navigation under duress. I have navigated under duress a few times and have
always reverted back to basic lessons learned at the USAF Survival School in
the woods near Spokane, WA some 25 years ago. When Momma Nature is whooping
up on ya, it's KISS. Simply taking a blind bearing and following a contour
has gotten my ass out of a jam a few times. Slowing down when the primal
instinct says hurry has worked many, many times.

But I'm with you in that one of my goals when going into the woods is to get
away from technology for a while, to de-fog my mind of Photoshop channel
operations and concerns about my motherboard's speed.

-- Bob


Message 9 [Don to all]


>> Re Bob B: You and I need to go on a hike, and leave our compasses and
topos at home! <<

All the positions have been laid out here again. I just can't decide where
I come down on them. I love gadgets. Most of us will probably not leave the
trail head without compass and topo. I am not about to do things like the
early explorers [or John Muir]did. 

One of the times I most wished for a GPS was a trip a couple of years ago
with Tom and family. We had just crossed Forester Pass at 13,200 feet. Tom
was sick [he claims it was altitude, but a day after I got home, I came down
with the same symptoms and was in bed for several days]. All of us were
tired. We knew where there was a lake at which we wanted to camp, and we
had a compass bearing to it, but, due to the terrain, we could not tell how
far it was. If it had been at the furthest point we could see, we would
have had problems making it, and would have taken an alternative. As it
turned out, Tom's son and I had just enough energy left to search for and
find the lake, and we all got there fine, but a GPS would have helped a lot
by giving us the distance. On that occasion, I would have liked one with us,
I think.

That was what got me musing on my last trip, when I was unsure how far I was
from my destination lake. A GPS would have told me, and made life much
simpler. On the other hand, I had the energy to do the required searching,
and was glad afterward that I had done it. If I had had a GPS, I would have
used it and missed the little bit of adventure.

I suppose I could carry one and use it only in emergencies, but that goes
against my efforts to travel light, as well as my doubts about the principle
of carrying electronic aids. I will probably continue to mull the matter
over for a while.

=====
Don
Message 10 [Tom to KK,Bob]
KK,Bob-

If the challenge of making do is part of the allure of backpacking, by all
means do it YOUR way. It's YOUR hike!

Message 11 [Tom to all]

I remember the incident that Don relates well including the anxiety of being
out-of-gas and not knowing how far I had to go. Actually, the day before I
was sick also and the team wasted much time scouting ahead to see how far we
needed to hike to make our destination and decide weather to camp in an
alternate location.

One of my personal problems is that my son considers me too old and slow to
backpack with anymore. [I suspect Bob would also]. I, on the other hand,
intend to get out there as long as I can walk; as long as I can get someone
to carry me. That's what I told the old ladies in the nursing home I go to
on Sundays. They agree!

Anyhow, without Don and my son this hike over Forrester and Shepherds pass
would have been less than fun. A GPS would have saved the day.

I guess it comes down to what your goals are. Make it from Mexico to Canada
in one year?, Pit my intelligence and creativity against the environments?
Not me. I just want to be out there.

Tom





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