[pct-l] Gear Recommendation (Traction Devices vs Snow Shoes)

[Scott Diamond]

Thanks for the detailed response Ned. Given the range of equipment that
people use to cross the Sierras I’m sure there are differing views on this
topic. Nonetheless I really appreciate your advice and in particular the
rationale for your choices (for example I hadn’t thought of the issue of
instep crampons not working if you are on the ball of your feet).



Now what kind of snow year will we have in 2016? Personally I hope we have
lots of snow as I love snow (as an avid cross country skier in Oregon). But
I guess we’ll see. I’ll do my snow dances this winter.



                -Scott

On Wed, Aug 5, 2015 at 5:11 PM, <ned at mountaineducation.org> wrote:

> Here are the annual snow questions asked before everyone's PCT thru hike,
> then again from the deck at Kennedy Meadows:
>
> 1.  "How much snow is in the sierra?"
> 2.  "Is it consolidated so I can walk on it or is it powder and I'll have
> to wallow through it?"
> 3.  "Do I need crampons or will I be ok with Microspikes?"
> 4.  "Do I need an ice axe or will a Whippet work?"
> 5.  "Will I need snowshoes?"
>
> Let's see if I can organize a decent response:
>
> 1.  The amount of snow doesn't matter.
>
> 2.  Once the snowpack is consolidated (compacted, hard-ish), you can walk
> on its surface (until it becomes soft and you posthole). The danger comes
> when the slope you're walking across (it's always the traverses up or down)
> gets steep and/or hard and icy. Then you'll need to know how to safely get
> across without slipping and falling and sliding/tumbling all the way into
> whatever is below you (trees, boulders, cliff, lake, creek, etc.). That can
> end your trip.
>
> 3.  To keep from slipping on the steeps (not much of a problem on the
> flats unless you're trying to go fast and pushing off your toes as if you
> were on dry ground), you'll need some form of traction device that puts
> teeth on the edges of your shoes (because most of the time you're walking
> on the uphill edges of your feet across traverses where switchbacks exist
> in the summer). This applies if you are ahead of the pack or making your
> own trail (even heading out to go to the bathroom) and do not have a trench
> made by those ahead of you to walk in every day.
>
> If you have a snow-trench to walk in across steep traverses, the bottom of
> that "path" will most likely be flat, side to side, although lumpy and
> slippery in the mornings, and almost any design of "crampon" will work
> since your whole foot is making contact with the snow. So, Microspikes will
> work just fine as long as you don't venture out onto the hard and slippery
> steep morning crusts. Instep designs don't help much unless you always walk
> flat-footed on top of the spikes all the time, but you will most likely be
> rolling off the ball of your feet, so that's why you need spikes up there.
> You do not want climbing crampons or anything with forward spikes since you
> will be walking, not climbing. Too many hikers trying to "make do" have cut
> up their legs with those points!
>
> Don't go with designs that are so light, they aren't strong! Look for good
> designs that have solid metal wrapping up alongside your feet in a few
> places. With this design, you can lean on those downhill edges and not fear
> sliding right off (this is what happens with the chain-designs and
> Microspikes!). Remember, you will probably be walking on snow, then dirt,
> then snow, then rocks and roots, so they need to be strong enough to endure
> this abuse. Keep in mind that if you are just trying to "get by," whatever
> you choose will probably fail you somewhere along the line and it will be a
> long and hazardous side trip out of the sierra and down to Lone Pine or
> Bishop to get the design you should have purchased originally. Make sure
> they strap on, because loose or "rubber band" styles can stretch and may
> roll off your feet just when you need them the most (nasty steep stretch
> across Forester's chute, for example).
>
> 4.  This is what I want you to remember:  The Whippet is in your hand all
> the time, ready to arrest your fall. The ice axe will be carried, strapped
> to your pack, until you recognize the need for it ahead, which almost no
> one without training does, thus it will not be in-hand when you slip and
> fall and need to perform a self-arrest to keep from getting hurt!
>
> I used to snow-hike with a long, hickory-handled axe that reached from my
> down-stretched arm/hand to the ground, sort of like a short hiking stick.
> It was always in my hand. That worked. We didn't have self-arrest poles in
> those days! Buy and use a Whippet whenever you know you will be needing to
> walk across steep snowy traverses, no matter how small! Don't assume,
> though, that they are fool-proof and will always save you from a broken
> bone or worse, because if you don't know how to reflexively deploy it,
> you've got an expensive stick. And don't worry about its weight; you'll get
> stronger. Its presence to save your life makes it worth every ounce! Use
> snow baskets, too, otherwise your poles will just sink deep into the snow
> and be of no use helping you to keep your balance.
>
> 5.  Nix to the snowshoes! I carried a pair from Kennedy Meadows to Donner
> Pass once and used them that many times, once! The main reason they're
> useless to a PCT thru hiker is that they totally fail on the steep
> traverses. Straight up or down is marginal, but forget it otherwise. Learn
> how to snow-hike in steep terrain and on both hard snow and breakable crust
> because that is probably what you'll have on the Crest in May and June.
>
> I have been hiking the sierra, PCT, and CDT for 50 years, have been
> snow-hiking for 43 of those, and have been teaching the skill to thru
> hikers for the past 33. Mountain Education logs about 100 to 150
> days/nights on PCT snow every year, especially after "normal" winters, and
> so we have a bit of experience to share regarding what "works," lasts, and
> performs and what doesn't. Snow-hiking and camping, even in the powder snow
> of winter, is a gas and addicting!
>
> A little snow-planning advice:
>
> -  1 mile per hour is about average. To get more miles in, you'll have to
> hike into the afternoon and risk postholing.
>
> -  Postholing is when you suddenly and unexpectedly plunge into the snow
> making a deep hole with your leg(s). These can be painful to your ankles,
> knees, hips, and back over time, so don't get caught still on the snow
> after, say, 1:00pm. Get over the pass and down to terra firma before then!
>
> -  Make your miles when below snowline, but realize that the "trail" down
> there during the sierra thaw may be a creek or mud.
>
> -  Plan to do one pass a day and do it right away in the morning, thus
> camp at the base of the climb the night before.
>
> -  Don't expect to do more than 10-14 miles per day when on snow in the
> steep terrain of the high sierra.
>
> -  Double your food and carry an extra day or so because of extreme energy
> consumption and the chance for bad weather.
>
> -  Don't expect to go from KM to VVR without a resupply out Kearsarge. You
> will eat and sweat like a pig snow-hiking!
>
> -  Pay a lot of attention to both where you are and how you're feeling.
> Snow-hiking will be harder than swinging your feet on dry trail!
>
> -  Learn how to navigate over snow! Don't freak out if you can't see the
> trail. It doesn't matter anyway. Just know where it is and make your own
> easy route. Realize that the summer trail wanders around topographic land
> features that will be buried and a non-issue to you. Snow-hiking is
> actually easier for above-timberline navigation. For example, just because
> the trail goes across that steep slope along the canyon wall, doesn't mean
> you have to! Know where the safe routes are and connect with the trail as
> needed. This is a huge aspect of what we teach on our Snow Advanced Courses!
>
> -  You already know our advice about self-arresting and traction devices
> and what tools to use.
>
> -  Camping on snow is very comfortable because you can shape your bed the
> way most comfortable! Just use an insulated pad.
>
> -  Ambient temperatures on snow can be very hot, if you're out there
> during the thaw (usually starts sometime in May), so beware of sunburn,
> both to the eyes and skin! Wear good glasses designed for high altitude and
> consider a long-sleeved shirt. I've been snow blinded and seriously burned
> twice, then I learned!
>
> -  You may not have open water sources to get water from, so prepare to
> carry water when in the heat on snow. Water sources may be unsafe to get
> close to, also. Learn how to assess these and snow bridges before you trust
> your life to one.
>
> -  Expect the day's heat to melt the snow at the rate of 1 or 2 inches per
> day, then freeze up forming a crust/ice at night.
>
> -  Compressed snow by someone's feet will melt and glaze a bit, thus be
> icy and slippery in the morning. So, be careful walking in that trench.
>
> -  Balance is a big deal! On dirt, you can roll off your toes, pushing
> yourself forward, but on snow, forget it, you'll only slip. Learn to walk
> flat-footed and on the edge of your shoes as needed to negotiate the
> different cambers, angles, and surfaces. Use your poles out to your sides
> to maintain your balance while you move forward. They are extensions of
> your hands to catch your balance. Use them. You will slip and stumble and
> slide and laugh as you first learn what to do!
>
> -  Don't let yourself get wet in a cold environment! As long as you can
> dry out, you'll be ok, but watch out for sweating after the sun goes down
> or when you cruise through the shade or while descending a pass on the
> shady side. Hypothermia can cause you to think sloppy and you can make bad
> decisions. It takes another person to see this happening to you, so travel
> over snow in a group.
>
> -  Don't rely on the "Mountainman" in the group to always know everything
> and be the leader. He may like it, but everyone should question where they
> are, when to rest, eat, and drink, where they're going, and when to stop!
>
> -  Don't count on someone "being there" to help you get through rough
> spots because there probably won't be anyone skilled nearby when you need
> them. Novices usually say, "I'll learn that skill or ability when I need
> it! I'm sure there'll be someone around who can show me what to do...."
> Your safety comes from making the right decisions for you, even if you are
> in a group. Get your snow skills before you suddenly find the slippery
> stuff in front of you, then maybe you can help others who didn't.
>
> -  You don't just walk on the surface of the snow. The pressure of your
> foot puts weight on whatever is inside the pack, be it a tree, rock,
> branch, log, or just air. Realize that you are walking on multiple layers
> of old snow, powder, ice, and debris and they all don't necessarily play
> well together. Some surfaces do not bond with others, thus can slide when
> the slope is steep enough and you just cut a fault line across it with your
> tracks. No, it is not usual for avalanches to happen after the thaw, but
> little, wet slides can and you'll see them up on the higher, steeper slopes
> above you. Just keep an eye out for them because when they occur up there
> it should tell you that you don't want to be there as the pack gets warmer,
> softer, and less bonded in the afternoon! Realize, too, that postholing
> through ice layers can cut you up pretty good. So, too, for those sudden
> plunges alongside boulders, rocks, and trees! Predict, as well, that if you
> see a little tree peeking above the surface of a deep pack that there is
> probably a bigger tree below it and to walk way around it. It is easy to
> fall down into its branches and get seriously stuck, if not buried in the
> ensuing loose snow.
>
> Mountain Education does have snow skills courses that thru hikers can
> attend as they first enter the sierra in May and June! Look for the 5-day,
> Thru-Hiker Specific course that runs from Cottonwood Pass, over Forester
> Pass, and out Kearsarge Pass.
>
> http://mountaineducation.org/snow-advanced-course-overview/
>
> I hope that helped!
>
> There is so much more to learn to maximize your health and safety when
> snow-hiking, but this ought to get your thoughts alerted.
>
>
> Ned Tibbits, Director
> Mountain Education, Inc.
> www.mountaineducation.org
> ned at mountaineducation.org
>
>
> Mission:
> "To minimize wilderness accidents, injury, and illness in order to
> maximize wilderness enjoyment, safety, and personal growth, all through
> experiential education and risk awareness training."
> -----Original Message----- From: Scott Diamond
> Sent: Wednesday, August 05, 2015 2:48 PM
> To: Pct Mailing List
> Cc: Dan C. aka Thumper
> Subject: Re: [pct-l] Gear Recommendation (Traction Devices vs Snow Shoes)
>
> I'm planning for 2016 and I'm trying to decide on crampons/traction devices
>
>
>
> As Ned notes below, it seems to me the high end is Kahtoola KTS Crampon
> <https://kahtoola.com/product/kts-aluminum-hiking-crampon/> ($149 18.9
> Oz/540g). High but also somewhat heavy at 18.9 Oz. With those and a Whippet
> <
> http://blackdiamondequipment.com/en/ski-poles/whippet-ski-pole-BD1115420000ALL1.html
> >,
> I’m sure I’d be secure.
>
>
>
> The next option which many hikers seem to use are the Micro spikes.
> Either Kahtoola
> Microspikes <https://kahtoola.com/product/microspikes/> ($70 13.1
> Oz/371g)
> or Hillsound trail crampons
> <http://hillsound.com/hillsound-product/trail-crampon/> ($60, 17.6
> Oz/500g).
>
>
>
> There are some lighter options out there. Instep crampons like ​Ruta Locura
> Instep Crampon <http://rutalocura.com/crampon.html> ($25 7.6 oz) are
> pretty
> intriguing given low weight and finally at the bottom of the scale are
> Vargo
> Titanium Cleats
> <http://www.vargooutdoors.com/titanium-pocket-cleats.html#.VULEIk10yHs>
> ($69
>
> 3.8 oz/107g). 3.8 Oz, wow!  I have to say I’m really intrigued by these
> lighter options. I could carry those in my pack all the way up to Canada
> and not notice them. But do they work?
>
>
>
> I guess there isn’t one right answer, but does anyone think I could get
> away with some of the lighter options. Would it make sense to use Kahtoola
> crampon from Kennedy Meadow and then switch to something lighter in a
> couple of hundred miles? Mail several options to Kennedy Meadow and decide
> there?
>
>
>
> Thanks, Scott
>
>
>
> On Sat, Apr 25, 2015 at 6:47 PM, Dan C. aka Thumper <dofdear at cox.net>
> wrote:
>
> Thought I'd share Ned's response.  Thumper
>>
>> > > From: <ned at mountaineducation.org>
>> > > To: "Dan C. aka Thumper" <dofdear at cox.net>
>> > > Subject: Re: Gear Recommendation (Traction Devices vs Snow Shoes)
>> > > Date: Sat, 25 Apr 2015 17:41:13 -0700
>> > >
>> > > Hi, Dan!
>> > >
>> > > Harts and north appears to have received a "normal" winter's worth of
>> snow,
>> > > but south of there the story is completely different. I would not
>> attempt
>> > > the trails up there until almost all snow is off traversing trails
>> because
>> > > the snow will assume the slope of the hillside, filling in the flat
>> > > (side-to-side) trail where the crossing of them will be steep and
>> slippery
>> > > and with dangerous run-outs downhill (think trees, rocks, creeks,
>> lakes, and
>> > > cliffs to hit, go into, or go over). July 4th or later is the
>> > > local-suggested start date for most summer hiking in the North > >
>> Cascades
>> > > after a "normal" winter.
>> > >
>> > > You do not need snowshoes and, besides, it is too steep in the
>> northern half
>> > > of WA for them to be safe, anyway.
>> > >
>> > > I love my Kahtoola Hiking Crampons because they stay on my boots no
>> matter
>> > > how violent a panic-step. Kahtoola's Microspikes simply roll off under
>> > > similar conditions (we tested them on high sierra traverses in May 5
>> years
>> > > ago and the design hasn't changed). They are good, however, if you are
>> > > walking in a trough formed my hikers ahead of you.
>> > >
>> > > For snow hiking on steep slopes where you don't have level (side to
>> side)
>> > > trail to switchback up or down, you need a shoe with sharp, 90-degree
>> sides
>> > > (where the sole and sides intersect) and traditional built-up heels >
>> > for
>> > > edging into hillsides and braking on descents. If you like security of
>> > > balance and firm traction, I'd stay away from molded soles and
>> lightweight
>> > > footwear (unless you are in the trough). More info under "Resources"
>> > > at
>> > > www.mountaineducation.org
>> > >
>> > > Bring tall, waterproof gaiters and not the "dirtygirl" type.
>> > >
>> > > The Whippet is the best tool for snow hiking because it is always in
>> your
>> > > hand when you slip and fall while the ice axe is still tied to the
>> back of
>> > > your pack! We always take a whippet and a regular pole with us if we
>> think
>> > > there might be snow encountered.
>> > >
>> > > Does that help?
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > Ned Tibbits, Director
>> > > Mountain Education, Inc.
>> > > www.mountaineducation.org
>> > > ned at mountaineducation.org
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > Mission:
>> > > "To minimize wilderness accidents, injury, and illness in order to
>> maximize
>> > > wilderness enjoyment, safety, and personal growth, all through
>> experiential
>> > > education and risk awareness training."
>>
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