[pct-l] [Cdt-l] Gear Recommendation (Traction Devices vs Snow Shoes)

Thu Aug 6 19:36:59 CDT 2015

Hey Scott,

In 2010, a high snow year on the PCT simply because we had no melt off in
spring, we lived on consolidated snow for much of 5 weeks.  My favorite
piece of gear that year was the Kahtoola KTS aluminum crampon.  Several of
us had them and loved them.  They are a step up from the micro spikes as
they made for good edging over the icy places and they simply didn't role,
even though we were both wearing trail runners.  Ned's right, they're a
great product.  As a matter of fact we were wearing them when we first met
Ned, who was filming on Kearsarge Pass, one of those mornings.

We also used lightweight ice axes and belayed and anchored, cut away the
cornice on Mather Pass and pretty much used them daily as well.

I'd started out from Trail Pass with MSR snowshoes and after a day of
traveling at the same speed, but with much more trouble than my
compatriots, I slashed them to my pack and carried them over Forester and
sent them home after exiting at Kearsarge for resupply.  They just don't
work well on the spring, consolidated, Sierra snow.  It's too hard.

On the CDT in 2012, we had snow in southern CO, and carried cramps and ice
axe, but only used them once for a short distance.  Most of the snow we
hiked over was such soft, light powder, we simply had to wade through it.
The cramps didn't help a bit of course and only the snow shoes would have
been useful, but none of us had them.  Lots of postholing up there that
year.  Tiring but still lots of fun!

But all of this depends on the year.  In the 2010 Sierra, the cramps and
ice axe were essential.  In 2011, even more so.  But since then we've been
in drought mode out in CA and they just haven't been needed, at least as
reported by many who have gone over the Sierra with no snow gear.  I'm glad
to have all that gear purchased, however, and ready to be mailed to me if
and when I need it, as finding the stuff at the end of the season was
difficult.  I could only find 2 pair of Kahtoola KTS cramps and could have
used more for the others in the group.  They were simply sold out for quick
purchase in the SF Bay Area anyway.  So Micro spikes were used by the
others.  Smiles, a Swiss mountaineer did the whole thing in heel cramps,
but that was her proclivity.  She was the strongest hiker in our bunch, and
usually didn't even use them as she skied down most slopes on her feet.

It's good stuff to own, but whether you'll need them or not is completely
up to the weather Gods!  And so far they haven't spoken with definity.
Theres a an El Nino on the horizon, but I'll believe the precipitation when
I see it.  We've been so dry now for 4 years, I hardly believe a normal
year is possible.

Have a wonderful hike with or without the snow gear!

Shroomer

On Thu, Aug 6, 2015 at 4:33 PM, <ned at mountaineducation.org> wrote:

> Hi, William!
>
> I agree!
>
> On my 1974 PCT thru, I carried my ice axe in my hand whenever on snow, too
> (of course it was really long and reached the ground).
>
> Since 1982, I have been teaching self-arrest skills with both a Whippet
> (or the original Ramer version) and an ice axe (for those who want to learn
> with an axe) and have never found the Whippet to be insufficient for a
> self-arrest on consolidated snow (or even crusty snow, for that matter). I
> have used one Whippet for several years, now, probably logging 6
> demonstrations per class, running 4 to 10 classes per year, so I think my
> Whippet has self-arrested me 24-60 times without a single failure! Of
> course, if I were to be out on more boiler-plate, icy surfaces, the Whippet
> wouldn't cut it, but for snow-hiking, it'll do just fine!
>
> In 1974, also, I used a pair of Vermont Tubbs "Sherpa Designs" snowshoes
> and they disintegrated on the crusty snow within 100 miles or so! I now use
> MSR Lightning Ascent snowshoes primarily during the winter's powder, but a
> little on springtime, consolidated snow and they are holding up just fine
> after 5 seasons, now!
>
> On one trip up the PCT from Kennedy Meadows to the Muir Trail Ranch in
> 2010, three of us took these MSR snowshoes and only used them where we
> found powder snow (cold and shady north sides of things). Without them, we
> would have floundered or wallowed in misery. I'm sure you were happy to
> have your snowshoes with you going down MT and ID, since you had such soft
> snow conditions! Typically in the sierra, especially after the spring thaw
> starts and the snow settles, compacts, and re-freezes at night, the surface
> is totally good to walk on even with just boots, but care needs to be taken
> in shady areas, on the north sides of passes, and after about noon when the
> snow has softened in the heat and postholing is frequent!
>
> Congratulations on  your CDT thru hike!
>
>
> Ned Tibbits, Director
> Mountain Education, Inc.
> www.mountaineducation.org
> ned at mountaineducation.org
>
>
> Mission:
> "To minimize wilderness accidents, injury, and illness in order to
> maximize wilderness enjoyment, safety, and personal growth, all through
> experiential education and risk awareness training."
> -----Original Message----- From: William Hersman
> Sent: Thursday, August 06, 2015 2:53 PM
> To: ned at mountaineducation.org
> Cc: Scott Diamond ; pct-l at backcountry.net ; cdt-l at backcountry.net
> Subject: Re: [Cdt-l] [pct-l] Gear Recommendation (Traction Devices vs Snow
> Shoes)
>
>
> With all due respect, Ned, my experiences with snowshoes and ice axes were
> different.  I carried my ice axe in my hand - why carry that extra weight
> on my back?  A whippet is wimpy when you are careening down a slope.  On
> the CDT I wore out a pair of snowshoes from so much use, but then I was a
> south bounder.  With constant snow across Montana and Idaho, post-holing
> was not a viable option.
>
> Willy Hersman
> PCT 1978
> CDT 1980
>
>
> On Aug 5, 2015, at 6:11 PM, <ned at mountaineducation.org> wrote:
>
> Here are the annual snow questions asked before everyone's PCT thru hike,
> then again from the deck at Kennedy Meadows:
>
> 1.  "How much snow is in the sierra?"
> 2.  "Is it consolidated so I can walk on it or is it powder and I'll have
> to wallow through it?"
> 3.  "Do I need crampons or will I be ok with Microspikes?"
> 4.  "Do I need an ice axe or will a Whippet work?"
> 5.  "Will I need snowshoes?"
>
> Let's see if I can organize a decent response:
>
> 1.  The amount of snow doesn't matter.
>
> 2.  Once the snowpack is consolidated (compacted, hard-ish), you can walk
> on its surface (until it becomes soft and you posthole). The danger comes
> when the slope you're walking across (it's always the traverses up or down)
> gets steep and/or hard and icy. Then you'll need to know how to safely get
> across without slipping and falling and sliding/tumbling all the way into
> whatever is below you (trees, boulders, cliff, lake, creek, etc.). That can
> end your trip.
>
> 3.  To keep from slipping on the steeps (not much of a problem on the
> flats unless you're trying to go fast and pushing off your toes as if you
> were on dry ground), you'll need some form of traction device that puts
> teeth on the edges of your shoes (because most of the time you're walking
> on the uphill edges of your feet across traverses where switchbacks exist
> in the summer). This applies if you are ahead of the pack or making your
> own trail (even heading out to go to the bathroom) and do not have a trench
> made by those ahead of you to walk in every day.
>
> If you have a snow-trench to walk in across steep traverses, the bottom of
> that "path" will most likely be flat, side to side, although lumpy and
> slippery in the mornings, and almost any design of "crampon" will work
> since your whole foot is making contact with the snow. So, Microspikes will
> work just fine as long as you don't venture out onto the hard and slippery
> steep morning crusts. Instep designs don't help much unless you always walk
> flat-footed on top of the spikes all the time, but you will most likely be
> rolling off the ball of your feet, so that's why you need spikes up there.
> You do not want climbing crampons or anything with forward spikes since you
> will be walking, not climbing. Too many hikers trying to "make do" have cut
> up their legs with those points!
>
> Don't go with designs that are so light, they aren't strong! Look for good
> designs that have solid metal wrapping up alongside your feet in a few
> places. With this design, you can lean on those downhill edges and not fear
> sliding right off (this is what happens with the chain-designs and
> Microspikes!). Remember, you will probably be walking on snow, then dirt,
> then snow, then rocks and roots, so they need to be strong enough to endure
> this abuse. Keep in mind that if you are just trying to "get by," whatever
> you choose will probably fail you somewhere along the line and it will be a
> long and hazardous side trip out of the sierra and down to Lone Pine or
> Bishop to get the design you should have purchased originally. Make sure
> they strap on, because loose or "rubber band" styles can stretch and may
> roll off your feet just when you need them the most (nasty steep stretch
> across Forester's chute, for example).
>
> 4.  This is what I want you to remember:  The Whippet is in your hand all
> the time, ready to arrest your fall. The ice axe will be carried, strapped
> to your pack, until you recognize the need for it ahead, which almost no
> one without training does, thus it will not be in-hand when you slip and
> fall and need to perform a self-arrest to keep from getting hurt!
>
> I used to snow-hike with a long, hickory-handled axe that reached from my
> down-stretched arm/hand to the ground, sort of like a short hiking stick.
> It was always in my hand. That worked. We didn't have self-arrest poles in
> those days! Buy and use a Whippet whenever you know you will be needing to
> walk across steep snowy traverses, no matter how small! Don't assume,
> though, that they are fool-proof and will always save you from a broken
> bone or worse, because if you don't know how to reflexively deploy it,
> you've got an expensive stick. And don't worry about its weight; you'll get
> stronger. Its presence to save your life makes it worth every ounce! Use
> snow baskets, too, otherwise your poles will just sink deep into the snow
> and be of no use helping you to keep your balance.
>
> 5.  Nix to the snowshoes! I carried a pair from Kennedy Meadows to Donner
> Pass once and used them that many times, once! The main reason they're
> useless to a PCT thru hiker is that they totally fail on the steep
> traverses. Straight up or down is marginal, but forget it otherwise. Learn
> how to snow-hike in steep terrain and on both hard snow and breakable crust
> because that is probably what you'll have on the Crest in May and June.
>
> I have been hiking the sierra, PCT, and CDT for 50 years, have been
> snow-hiking for 43 of those, and have been teaching the skill to thru
> hikers for the past 33. Mountain Education logs about 100 to 150
> days/nights on PCT snow every year, especially after "normal" winters, and
> so we have a bit of experience to share regarding what "works," lasts, and
> performs and what doesn't. Snow-hiking and camping, even in the powder snow
> of winter, is a gas and addicting!
>
> A little snow-planning advice:
>
> -  1 mile per hour is about average. To get more miles in, you'll have to
> hike into the afternoon and risk postholing.
>
> -  Postholing is when you suddenly and unexpectedly plunge into the snow
> making a deep hole with your leg(s). These can be painful to your ankles,
> knees, hips, and back over time, so don't get caught still on the snow
> after, say, 1:00pm. Get over the pass and down to terra firma before then!
>
> -  Make your miles when below snowline, but realize that the "trail" down
> there during the sierra thaw may be a creek or mud.
>
> -  Plan to do one pass a day and do it right away in the morning, thus
> camp at the base of the climb the night before.
>
> -  Don't expect to do more than 10-14 miles per day when on snow in the
> steep terrain of the high sierra.
>
> -  Double your food and carry an extra day or so because of extreme energy
> consumption and the chance for bad weather.
>
> -  Don't expect to go from KM to VVR without a resupply out Kearsarge. You
> will eat and sweat like a pig snow-hiking!
>
> -  Pay a lot of attention to both where you are and how you're feeling.
> Snow-hiking will be harder than swinging your feet on dry trail!
>
> -  Learn how to navigate over snow! Don't freak out if you can't see the
> trail. It doesn't matter anyway. Just know where it is and make your own
> easy route. Realize that the summer trail wanders around topographic land
> features that will be buried and a non-issue to you. Snow-hiking is
> actually easier for above-timberline navigation. For example, just because
> the trail goes across that steep slope along the canyon wall, doesn't mean
> you have to! Know where the safe routes are and connect with the trail as
> needed. This is a huge aspect of what we teach on our Snow Advanced Courses!
>
> -  You already know our advice about self-arresting and traction devices
> and what tools to use.
>
> -  Camping on snow is very comfortable because you can shape your bed the
> way most comfortable! Just use an insulated pad.
>
> -  Ambient temperatures on snow can be very hot, if you're out there
> during the thaw (usually starts sometime in May), so beware of sunburn,
> both to the eyes and skin! Wear good glasses designed for high altitude and
> consider a long-sleeved shirt. I've been snow blinded and seriously burned
> twice, then I learned!
>
> -  You may not have open water sources to get water from, so prepare to
> carry water when in the heat on snow. Water sources may be unsafe to get
> close to, also. Learn how to assess these and snow bridges before you trust
> your life to one.
>
> -  Expect the day's heat to melt the snow at the rate of 1 or 2 inches per
> day, then freeze up forming a crust/ice at night.
>
> -  Compressed snow by someone's feet will melt and glaze a bit, thus be
> icy and slippery in the morning. So, be careful walking in that trench.
>
> -  Balance is a big deal! On dirt, you can roll off your toes, pushing
> yourself forward, but on snow, forget it, you'll only slip. Learn to walk
> flat-footed and on the edge of your shoes as needed to negotiate the
> different cambers, angles, and surfaces. Use your poles out to your sides
> to maintain your balance while you move forward. They are extensions of
> your hands to catch your balance. Use them. You will slip and stumble and
> slide and laugh as you first learn what to do!
>
> -  Don't let yourself get wet in a cold environment! As long as you can
> dry out, you'll be ok, but watch out for sweating after the sun goes down
> or when you cruise through the shade or while descending a pass on the
> shady side. Hypothermia can cause you to think sloppy and you can make bad
> decisions. It takes another person to see this happening to you, so travel
> over snow in a group.
>
> -  Don't rely on the "Mountainman" in the group to always know everything
> and be the leader. He may like it, but everyone should question where they
> are, when to rest, eat, and drink, where they're going, and when to stop!
>
> -  Don't count on someone "being there" to help you get through rough
> spots because there probably won't be anyone skilled nearby when you need
> them. Novices usually say, "I'll learn that skill or ability when I need
> it! I'm sure there'll be someone around who can show me what to do...."
> Your safety comes from making the right decisions for you, even if you are
> in a group. Get your snow skills before you suddenly find the slippery
> stuff in front of you, then maybe you can help others who didn't.
>
> -  You don't just walk on the surface of the snow. The pressure of your
> foot puts weight on whatever is inside the pack, be it a tree, rock,
> branch, log, or just air. Realize that you are walking on multiple layers
> of old snow, powder, ice, and debris and they all don't necessarily play
> well together. Some surfaces do not bond with others, thus can slide when
> the slope is steep enough and you just cut a fault line across it with your
> tracks. No, it is not usual for avalanches to happen after the thaw, but
> little, wet slides can and you'll see them up on the higher, steeper slopes
> above you. Just keep an eye out for them because when they occur up there
> it should tell you that you don't want to be there as the pack gets warmer,
> softer, and less bonded in the afternoon! Realize, too, that postholing
> through ice layers can cut you up pretty good. So, too, for those sudden
> plunges alongside boulders, rocks, and trees! Predict, as well, that if you
> see a little tree peeking above the surface of a deep pack that there is
> probably a bigger tree below it and to walk way around it. It is easy to
> fall down into its branches and get seriously stuck, if not buried in the
> ensuing loose snow.
>
> Mountain Education does have snow skills courses that thru hikers can
> attend as they first enter the sierra in May and June! Look for the 5-day,
> Thru-Hiker Specific course that runs from Cottonwood Pass, over Forester
> Pass, and out Kearsarge Pass.
>
> http://mountaineducation.org/snow-advanced-course-overview/
>
> I hope that helped!
>
> There is so much more to learn to maximize your health and safety when
> snow-hiking, but this ought to get your thoughts alerted.
>
>
> Ned Tibbits, Director
> Mountain Education, Inc.
> www.mountaineducation.org
> ned at mountaineducation.org
>
>
> Mission:
> "To minimize wilderness accidents, injury, and illness in order to
> maximize wilderness enjoyment, safety, and personal growth, all through
> experiential education and risk awareness training."
> -----Original Message----- From: Scott Diamond
> Sent: Wednesday, August 05, 2015 2:48 PM
> To: Pct Mailing List
> Cc: Dan C. aka Thumper
> Subject: Re: [pct-l] Gear Recommendation (Traction Devices vs Snow Shoes)
>
> I'm planning for 2016 and I'm trying to decide on crampons/traction devices
>
>
>
> As Ned notes below, it seems to me the high end is Kahtoola KTS Crampon
> <https://kahtoola.com/product/kts-aluminum-hiking-crampon/> ($149 18.9
> Oz/540g). High but also somewhat heavy at 18.9 Oz. With those and a Whippet
> <
> http://blackdiamondequipment.com/en/ski-poles/whippet-ski-pole-BD1115420000ALL1.html
> >,
> I’m sure I’d be secure.
>
>
>
> The next option which many hikers seem to use are the Micro spikes.
> Either Kahtoola
> Microspikes <https://kahtoola.com/product/microspikes/> ($70 13.1
> Oz/371g)
> or Hillsound trail crampons
> <http://hillsound.com/hillsound-product/trail-crampon/> ($60, 17.6
> Oz/500g).
>
>
>
> There are some lighter options out there. Instep crampons like Ruta Locura
> Instep Crampon <http://rutalocura.com/crampon.html> ($25 7.6 oz) are
> pretty
> intriguing given low weight and finally at the bottom of the scale are
> Vargo
> Titanium Cleats
> <http://www.vargooutdoors.com/titanium-pocket-cleats.html#.VULEIk10yHs>
> ($69
> 3.8 oz/107g). 3.8 Oz, wow!  I have to say I’m really intrigued by these
> lighter options. I could carry those in my pack all the way up to Canada
> and not notice them. But do they work?
>
>
>
> I guess there isn’t one right answer, but does anyone think I could get
> away with some of the lighter options. Would it make sense to use Kahtoola
> crampon from Kennedy Meadow and then switch to something lighter in a
> couple of hundred miles? Mail several options to Kennedy Meadow and decide
> there?
>
>
>
> Thanks, Scott
>
>
>
> On Sat, Apr 25, 2015 at 6:47 PM, Dan C. aka Thumper <dofdear at cox.net>
> wrote:
>
> Thought I'd share Ned's response.  Thumper
>>
>> > > From: <ned at mountaineducation.org>
>> > > To: "Dan C. aka Thumper" <dofdear at cox.net>
>> > > Subject: Re: Gear Recommendation (Traction Devices vs Snow Shoes)
>> > > Date: Sat, 25 Apr 2015 17:41:13 -0700
>> > >
>> > > Hi, Dan!
>> > >
>> > > Harts and north appears to have received a "normal" winter's worth of
>> snow,
>> > > but south of there the story is completely different. I would not
>> attempt
>> > > the trails up there until almost all snow is off traversing trails
>> because
>> > > the snow will assume the slope of the hillside, filling in the flat
>> > > (side-to-side) trail where the crossing of them will be steep and
>> slippery
>> > > and with dangerous run-outs downhill (think trees, rocks, creeks,
>> lakes, and
>> > > cliffs to hit, go into, or go over). July 4th or later is the
>> > > local-suggested start date for most summer hiking in the North > > >
>> > Cascades
>> > > after a "normal" winter.
>> > >
>> > > You do not need snowshoes and, besides, it is too steep in the
>> northern half
>> > > of WA for them to be safe, anyway.
>> > >
>> > > I love my Kahtoola Hiking Crampons because they stay on my boots no
>> matter
>> > > how violent a panic-step. Kahtoola's Microspikes simply roll off under
>> > > similar conditions (we tested them on high sierra traverses in May 5
>> years
>> > > ago and the design hasn't changed). They are good, however, if you are
>> > > walking in a trough formed my hikers ahead of you.
>> > >
>> > > For snow hiking on steep slopes where you don't have level (side to
>> side)
>> > > trail to switchback up or down, you need a shoe with sharp, 90-degree
>> sides
>> > > (where the sole and sides intersect) and traditional built-up heels >
>> > >  > for
>> > > edging into hillsides and braking on descents. If you like security of
>> > > balance and firm traction, I'd stay away from molded soles and
>> lightweight
>> > > footwear (unless you are in the trough). More info under "Resources"
>> > > >  > at
>> > > www.mountaineducation.org
>> > >
>> > > Bring tall, waterproof gaiters and not the "dirtygirl" type.
>> > >
>> > > The Whippet is the best tool for snow hiking because it is always in
>> your
>> > > hand when you slip and fall while the ice axe is still tied to the
>> back of
>> > > your pack! We always take a whippet and a regular pole with us if we
>> think
>> > > there might be snow encountered.
>> > >
>> > > Does that help?
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > Ned Tibbits, Director
>> > > Mountain Education, Inc.
>> > > www.mountaineducation.org
>> > > ned at mountaineducation.org
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > Mission:
>> > > "To minimize wilderness accidents, injury, and illness in order to
>> maximize
>> > > wilderness enjoyment, safety, and personal growth, all through
>> experiential
>> > > education and risk awareness training."
>>
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