[pct-l] Alcohol and Esbit Stoves

Wed Apr 9 17:23:39 CDT 2014

JPL, for the last time, "controlled flame devise'    Can you control the flame length and temperature of an Esbit or alcohol stove? 

I don't even need to mention an on/off valve for the answer to be NO to both of those stoves. 

The BLM directive is clear as to what type of stove is allowable and which is not. 

Be safe and do the right thing. 

Terry

-----Original Message-----
From: JPL <jplynch at crosslink.net>
To: brick <brick at brickrobbins.com>; pct-l <pct-l at backcountry.net>; tsparks56 <tsparks56 at aol.com>
Sent: Wed, Apr 9, 2014 3:12 pm
Subject: Re: [pct-l] Alcohol and Esbit Stoves

Sure and I got that.  But it is the responsibility of the agency, BLM in this case, to explain and clarify their regulations.  This is not a hard thing to ask them to do.  I used to work for the gummint and trust me we did that all the time!  I remember one contractor calling and asking “can we turn this piece 90 degrees”, and I said no and told them why.  They were right to ask the question and it my responsibility to answer it and explain my reasoning.  It should be a bit instructive to us that they couldn’t answer Brick’s question right on the spot (and apparently haven’t answered it yet!). :)

From: tsparks56 at aol.com 
Sent: Wednesday, April 09, 2014 5:26 PM
To: jplynch at crosslink.net ; brick at brickrobbins.com ; pct-l at backcountry.net 
Subject: Re: [pct-l] Alcohol and Esbit Stoves

 I understand about Esbit stoves and all but, my bigger concern is, instead of trying to find a definition to the BLM order and telling everyone within ear shot that, what the PCTA says is 'slightly' different than what BLM says, why don't we all just be safe, do the correct thing, enjoy our hikes and give good direction to the others on this list.  

It's not that hard to do. 

Terry

-----Original Message-----
From: JPL <jplynch at crosslink.net>
To: brick <brick at brickrobbins.com>; pct-l <pct-l at backcountry.net>; tsparks56 <tsparks56 at aol.com>
Sent: Wed, Apr 9, 2014 1:41 pm
Subject: Re: [pct-l] Alcohol and Esbit Stoves

Didnâ€™t say it was; I was speaking of and only of an esbit stove.  And accidents can happen with any stove.  

From: tsparks56 at aol.com 
Sent: Wednesday, April 09, 2014 4:33 PM
To: jplynch at crosslink.net ; brick at brickrobbins.com ; pct-l at backcountry.net 
Subject: Re: [pct-l] Alcohol and Esbit Stoves

How is a tipped over alcohol stove under anyone's control? 

-----Original Message-----
From: JPL <jplynch at crosslink.net>
To: brick <brick at brickrobbins.com>; pct-l <pct-l at backcountry.net>; tsparks56 <tsparks56 at aol.com>
Sent: Wed, Apr 9, 2014 1:30 pm
Subject: Re: [pct-l] Alcohol and Esbit Stoves

Its fine to understand the dictionary definition of terms, but laws and 
regulations will sometimes have their own definitions and a more detailed 
explanation of what something means than strictly relying on the dictionary. 
Brick is right on target in seeking more definitive answers.  I use an esbit 
tablet stove.  Its under my control.  When I'm ready, I blow out the tab.  I 
could argue that the esbit stove and tablet are fully under my control.  But 
I realize that the agency governing the land where I am may have a different 
understanding and I'm fine with that.  Just tell me.

-----Original Message----- 
From: tsparks56 at aol.com
Sent: Wednesday, April 09, 2014 4:25 PM
To: brick at brickrobbins.com ; pct-l at backcountry.net
Subject: Re: [pct-l] Alcohol and Esbit Stoves

Brick, at first I thought the problem was a reading comprehension problem 
but, now I think it's more of a misunderstanding of what the word  "control' 
is defined as, for this application.  To help you along, I have taken the 
liberty of providing a copy of the definition of "control" for you.

conÃƒÂ‚Ã‚Â·trol
  [kuhn-trohl]  Show IPA

verb (used with object), conÃƒÂ‚Ã‚Â·trolled, conÃƒÂ‚Ã‚Â·trolÃƒÂ‚Ã‚Â·ling.
1.
to exercise restraint or direction over; dominate; command.

2.
to hold in check; curb: to control a horse; to control one's emotions.

3.
to test or verify (a scientific experiment) by a parallel experiment or 
other standard of comparison.

4.
to eliminate or prevent the flourishing or spread of: to control a forest 
fire.

5.
Obsolete . to check or regulate (transactions), originally by means of a 
duplicate register.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/control

Brick, if you think I'm being an ass about this, it is because you, as the 
moderator of this list should hold yourself to a higher standard for 
everyone to follow, especially when it comes to safety issues and, if need 
be, error on the side of caution and common sense. If you don't completely 
understand the wording of this BLM order, all that needs to be understood, 
of which I do, is to understand the intent of the BLM directive.
If you want to play games with the wording and pretend you don't understand 
something as important as this, please keep it to yourself.  As for you 
being the moderator of this board, I beg you to present yourself to having a 
higher standard, especially for the very inexperienced hikers among us to 
follow.
We don't need an accidental fire on the trail and I don't want to attend 
anymore Fire Fighters funerals.

Thank you,

Terry Sparks
34 years, Los Angeles County Fire Department (retired)

-----Original Message-----
From: Brick Robbins <brick at brickrobbins.com>
To: pct-l <pct-l at backcountry.net>
Sent: Wed, Apr 9, 2014 12:38 pm
Subject: Re: [pct-l] Alcohol and Esbit Stoves

On Wed, Apr 9, 2014 at 10:33 AM, Ken Murray <kmurray at dr.com> wrote:
>  *Setting, building, maintaining, attending, or using open fire of any 
> kind is
prohibited in the*
>  *designated area. *Controlled flame devices such as portable stoves 
> fueled by
petroleum or LPG products
> are allowed only by permit.
>
> Brick, you left out the first sentence. The second sentence provides an
exception to the first. Alcohol and Esbit would clearly be banned, because
neither runs on "Petroleum or LPG products"

And you left out the words "SUCH AS" which does not strictly limit the
type of stoves to "Petroleum or LPG products" but merely uses them as
examples.

I don't think the PCTA should have changed the words "SUCH AS" to "ONLY."

> I think this is crystal clear. Brick, if you don't, why don't you call the 
> BLM
and ask for clarification?

I did. The person who answered the phone didn't know, and was going to
get back to me. I'm still waiting.

My beef with this is that laws and regulation should be clear.

The USFS order clearly mandates stoves with a shutoff valve. The BLM
order does not.  Some  folks are assuming that "controlled flame"
means the same as "has a shutoff valve" without a really good basis.
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