[pct-l] Bag/Quilt Warmth

Wed Jul 20 09:31:01 CDT 2011

Good Morning SteelEye,

While I do appreciate your opinions and the wisdom that you often share on this list.  However, I respectfully disagree with some of them - as you do with mine. 

  I don't like the natural, organic "human smell" (stink) either. To me that smells as bad as the moth balls. That's just one of several reasons why I camp alone with my horse. Also, places where I seek out to camp, usually well away from the PCT, are cleaner. Less human contamination.  I leave those wilder places as I find them.  LNT.

    I come from a very rural area. For 34 years I lived on the coast north of Mendocino and one-half mile south of the Point Cabrillo Lighthouse - we bordered a nature preserve - no houses fot 1/2 mile north.  We also had a ranch in Comptche (population less than 200). We were out on the edge of wild country that went on for many miles. We could ride out on our horses on conditioning loops of as long as 60 miles in one day - and often not see a person. (wilder than most of the PCT).  We would usually see lots of wildlife, including bears and lions. That was great - especially the lion sightings.  On the Coast we occasionally (just two sightings) saw a lion on the headlands. And, best of all, we could watch the grey whale migrations from our windows. The Comptche ranch included an old apple and pear orchard and there was another on an abandoned homestead nearby. The bears would come into the orchards to feast on the apples. Once, riding at
 night (I was getting one of our horses accustomed to being ridden at night in preparation for an upcoming 100 mile race - according to my log, in the past 29 years, I have ridden 44,384 miles. Most of that was conditioning several horses for endurance racing. I have won more than thirty 50's and 100's) and under a nearly full moon, I came upon a wonderful sight as I passed into the old abandoned orchard near the homestead. There must have been at least a dozen bears. One was as large as any black bear I have ever seen - my estimate would be over 600 pounds! The following year my wife saw him again about three miles away near the river. We think it must have been the same bear because of his exceptional size. These bears always ran or walked away when we approached - I suppose you could consider them as wild bears. We didn't have strong "human smell", nor did we bring mothballs along on conditioning rides or exploration rides. Only brought bear
 charms on overnights.  I did bring a gun and basic survival things in a fanny pack - in case of an accident and an injury - and blood. My concern was the lions. I would be an injured animal - a meal. But, there were other bears in the Mendocino Coast area, inland from Mendocino, Little River, and Albion that did raid garbage cans. And people I knew did use mothballs scattered around their garbage cans to discourage bears.  In 2009, when I rode from Sierra City to Firefly's in Old Station, where I had parked my rig, I was to meet and take a nice ride with Mary Chandler, Firefly's neighbor. We talked about bears. The Chandlers always use mothballs around their garbage cans to discourage bears.

     If the snow melts enough for me to take my Sierra Ride this summer I will be carrying two Garcia Bear Canisters to comply with the legal requirement.  I assume that you realize that the canisters do not contain the food smells. Habitulated bears might still be attracted to a hiker camping area to investigate. The bears are very intelligent and will know what is in the canisters and also that they can't get it although they might give it a try.  But, while in the area, they might also want to check out the hikers. If someone is careless and has food stored next to them, there is a possibility of trouble. Note that I camp away from places like that and also use my bear charms - which I have used for over 20 years now since I learned about them from a customer who had canoed a lot in the Yukon ans Alaska. In parts of the Yukon they call mothballs in cotton tobacco sacks "bear charms" and they are commonly used in backcountry camps. I learned
 of bear charms over 20 years ago.  I suppose they work since I have never had a bear problem while using them - while I know of a few hikers who did. Probably because they were careless about where and how they stored their food. 

I have been backpacking and climbing in the High Sierra backcountry since the early 50's. Bears were never a problem then. I don't recall ever seeing a bear above about 9500' in the latitude of Sequoia and Kings Canyon N.Parks. In the 40's, as a kid, I remember watching the Rangers feeding them garbage near lower elevation campgrounds. Tourists, including my parents, also fed them through their car windows.  That's how the high-country bear problems got started. The bears simply followed hikers into the high country to get their food.  I'm sure that you are well aware of this history.

It would be a mistake to assume that the "wild" bears that you describe are all,really wild. I have encountered, in the Sierra (not in the canistered-required areas) and in Yellowstone, very bold and aggressive bears -Scary!  That is why I now use several methods of avoiding contact.  These include moth balls, OPSacks, and bear bells while riding on the trail.  Since I take showers while traveling (I don't just ride; I sometimes also hike - and I always carry a survival knapsack which can weigh up to 20 pounds - It holds what I would need to survive (sleeping bag, water, food, SPOT, etc.) if I should have an accident and become separated from my horse. 

You say that while you have OPSaks you have never tested them and doubt they would work as advertised. I have tested them and am confident that they DO work. They contain smells. Just be sure that you seal them properly and do not get food smells on the outside of the bags. I have also tested Freezer Bags, Zip-Lock Freezer Bags, and Hefty Freezer bags. They do not contain smells. These tests were in my Agua Dulce barn which is also home to rats and mice. 

Have a great hike this summer.
MendoRider

From: CHUCK CHELIN <steeleye at wildblue.net>
To: Edward Anderson <mendoridered at yahoo.com>
Cc: "pct-l at backcountry.net" <pct-l at backcountry.net>
Sent: Tuesday, July 19, 2011 7:56 AM
Subject: Re: [pct-l] Bag/Quilt Warmth

“I think perhaps you like the accumulation of "human smell" inside your bag because you believe that it keeps the wild bears away. . . . . . . . and, you save the weight of the mothballs that I carry.”   MendoRider
Good morning, MendoRider,   
Guilty as charged, but it’s not because I like human smell:  I’m just doing my part to provide a 100%, all-natural, environmentally-friendly bear deterrent alternative in lieu of a chemical slam-dunk like mothballs.
I have never used mothballs – nor shall I – and I’ve also never seen any technical evidence demonstrating that they do more than provide the user with confidence – indeed like a charm.  What I do know is:  1) You USE mothballs and have not been bothered by wild bears, while, 2) I DO NOT use mothballs and have not been bothered by bears.  From that, my guess is the deterring factor is human scent rather than mothballs.
Among habituated park bears I use an approved ‘can so I don’t much care if they are not deterred by human smell, but I don’t believe mothballs would be effective against them either.  I have trouble imagining a park bear thinking, “I’m really hungry, and there in camp is a 15-pound sack of the richest and sweetest, most Calorie-dense food imaginable, but I’m so upset about that dozen mothballs that have to leave the area.  I guess I’ll just go eat some grass.”
There’s one other slim possibility:  Sometimes when people ask me how they can protect their camp from bears I kid them by saying, “Use peanut butter – just smear it on someone else’s tent.”  Similarly, it may only be necessary to use mothballs to slightly deter the bear; hoping to fend him off to some adjacent camper’s food, but considering a bear’s appetite I doubt that would work.
Finally, having been raised in an era then people used them a lot, I don’t use mothballs because I really dislike the smell.  In spite of that, if I were on the trail and came upon a pizza surrounded by 1,000 pounds of moth balls, I would still grab the pizza and leave.
Similarly, I don’t use odor-proof Ziplocs (OP-Sacks).  I have some but haven’t really tested them for the same reason as I don’t use mothballs.  Besides, I don’t cache food.  As a hiker I resupply from towns and keep the grub in my control.  My suspicion is they are not as effective as they advertise.  If they were that good against bears – who reportedly have a sense of smell magnitudes better than the best dog – all of the OP-Sack production would probably be sucked-up by smugglers using them to fool drug-sniffing dogs at the border.
Enjoy your hike this season,
Steel-Eye
-Hiking the Pct since before it was the PCT – 1965
-http://www.trailjournals.com/steel-eye
-http://www.trailjournals.com/SteelEye09

On Mon, Jul 18, 2011 at 9:22 PM, Edward Anderson <mendoridered at yahoo.com> wrote:

Hi Steel-Eye,
> 
>I haven't experienced the problem that you describe.  You must move around in your sleep more than I do. The liner definitely helps to keep the inside of my bag clean. And I do rinse it out and take a shower fairly often while on the trail. Since I travel on the PCT with a horse-companion, we mostly live on the trail.  I try to reach camp early to give Primo plenty of time to graze.  I also take my "0" days near the trail (preferably out of sight of it) rather than where the hikers camp.  I think perhaps you like the accumulation of "human smell" inside your bag because you believe that it keeps the wild bears away. . . . . . . . and, you save the weight of the mothballs that I carry.
> 
>I say, keep on doing whatever works for you.
> 
>MendoRider
>
>
>From: CHUCK CHELIN <steeleye at wildblue.net>
>To: Edward Anderson <mendoridered at yahoo.com>
>Cc: "pct-l at backcountry.net" <pct-l at backcountry.net>
>Sent: Monday, July 18, 2011 8:09 PM 
>
>Subject: Re: [pct-l] Bag/Quilt Warmth
>
>
>
>Good evening, MendoRider,
>I don’t know how you do it.  Because people – apparently people who sell the things -- say they are a good idea, at various times I’ve tried a flannel bag liner, a silk bag liner, and a nylon bag liner.  Unfortunately, as I move around inside the bag at night they all ended up getting twisted around me like a cocoon around a caterpillar.  I even had one equipped with little ties to attach it along the zipper-edges of the bag and it REALLY got me twisted.  About 1 hour into the first night I used that thing I ripped it out and never used it again.  
>I also question the supposed gains in insulating value.  I’m a big supporter of using the loft dimension for judging insulation.  For me the critical areas for insulation are where the bag/robe drapes over my shoulder and upper arm, and over my hip and upper thigh. The popular, thin liners will be trapped between my body and the inside of the bag, adding approximately 0.0015 inches of loft which hardly seems to justify the associated 4-5 ounces of weight increase. 
>However, some people like them – and they probably do keep the bag cleaner – so give one a try.  For me, I’ve been there, done that, and survived the aggravation
>Steel-Eye
>-Hiking the Pct since before it was the PCT – 1965
>-http://www.trailjournals.com/steel-eye
>-http://www.trailjournals.com/SteelEye09
>
>
>On Mon, Jul 18, 2011 at 11:15 AM, Edward Anderson <mendoridered at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>The best combination is to bring a 20 degree bag and also a 4.7 ounce silk sleeping bag liner. That's what I bring.  Then, effectively, you have a 10 degree bag and a 30 degree bag as well as the 20 degree bag.  The liner is rated at 9.5 degrees of warmth.  Sleep in just liner on top of your bag on a warm night. Use the liner on a cold night.  The liner keeps the inside of your bag clean and is easy to rinse and dries quickly.
>>
>> 
>>MendoRider
>>From: Austin Williams <austinwilliams123 at gmail.com>
>>To: John Abela <abela at johnabela.com>; pct-l at backcountry.net
>>Sent: Monday, July 18, 2011 9:57 AM
>>Subject: Re: [pct-l] Bag/Quilt Warmth
>>
>>
>>According to the polls (http://planyourhike.com/polls/), 20 degrees F seems
>>to be the most popular.
>>
>>I personally used a 15 degree Marmot Helium (~2lbs) and loved it.
>>
>>Austin Williams
>>
>>
>>
>>www.PlanYourHike.com <http://www.planyourhike.com/>
>>Info on PCT Gear, Resupply Points, Maps, Thru hiking Movies, etc.
>>
>>
>>
>>On Fri, Jul 15, 2011 at 8:58 PM, John Abela <abela at johnabela.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Hello All,
>>>
>>> I just wanted to throw out a question and see what everybody feels
>>> about the issue of what temp bag/quilt you feel you should would use
>>> on the PCT if you were to (re)hike it in the next year or two.
>>>
>>> I realize that some folks sleep warm and some sleep cold, so my
>>> question is here is specifically what would *you* use?
>>>
>>> I also realize that a person could take a 40 degree bag and use it in
>>> combination with a WM/MB down jacket/pants to get a sub-freezing
>>> rating, so if you feel that is what you would do, by all means, share
>>> that as well.
>>>
>>> I will admit that, for me, this is perhaps one of the hardest issues I
>>> face each time I am planning a trip. I am often torn between whether I
>>> should take my highly beloved MontBell UL SuperSpiral #3 (a 30f bag)
>>> or my Nunatak Arc Ghost (32f quilt). I really really love my MBULSS
>>> but at 21 ounces verses 13 ounces for my Arc, its often a hard choice
>>> for me unless I know for sure its going to get sub freezing, at which
>>> point the MBULSS goes w/o hesitation.
>>>
>>> So, anyway, just wondering "if you were going to hike the PCT next
>>> year, which temperature bag would you take?"
>>>
>>> This is not a "what brand/model bag/quilt would you take"... but
>>> rather a "what temperature bag/quilt would you take" question - I
>>> think that is more important than the name on the bag/quilt, eh!
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>> John
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Pct-L mailing list
>>> Pct-L at backcountry.net
>>> To unsubcribe, or change options visit:
>>> http://mailman.backcountry.net/mailman/listinfo/pct-l
>>>
>>> List Archives:
>>> http://mailman.backcountry.net/pipermail/pct-l/
>>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>Pct-L mailing list
>>Pct-L at backcountry.net
>>To unsubcribe, or change options visit:
>>http://mailman.backcountry.net/mailman/listinfo/pct-l
>>
>>List Archives:
>>http://mailman.backcountry.net/pipermail/pct-l/
>>_______________________________________________
>>Pct-L mailing list
>>Pct-L at backcountry.net
>>To unsubcribe, or change options visit:
>>http://mailman.backcountry.net/mailman/listinfo/pct-l
>>
>>List Archives:
>>http://mailman.backcountry.net/pipermail/pct-l/
>>
>
>
>