[pct-l] Rx Vytorin

Thu Feb 17 17:21:16 CST 2011

Eric,

In your linked article <
http://www.cholesterol-and-health.com/Does-Cholesterol-Cause-Heart-Disease-Myth.html#conclusion>
Michael
Pollan (my hero) states : "There is a link between saturated fat and
cholesterol in the blood. There is a link between cholesterol in the blood
and heart disease. But the proof that saturated fat leads to heart disease
in a causal way is very tenuous."

That is a long way from your statement that "Lipid hypotheis definitively
disproven".

As I said, the research continues...  perhaps some saturated fat is heathly
and some is not.  We will see.

Good discussion!

Thanks,
Sym
On Thu, Feb 17, 2011 at 3:06 PM, Eric <johner27 at evergreen.edu> wrote:

> Sym,
>
> Lipid hypotheis definitively disproven:
> http://www.cholesterol-and-health.com/Does-Cholesterol-Cause-Heart-Disease-Myth.html#conclusion
> http://michaelpollan.com/interviews/michael-pollan-debunks-food-myths/
>
>
> I definitely agree about the impact CAFO animals have as well as the cruel
> treatment they get; it's not a good thing.  I don't see veganism as a
> healthy diet as there has never been a vegan culture in the world.
>
> I'd give cat a try. Maybe not dog. But yes, we all draw the line somewhere.
>
> Regards,
> Eric
>
>
> On Thu, Feb 17, 2011 at 2:53 PM, Sym Blanchard <symbiosis222 at gmail.com>wrote:
>
>> Eric,
>>
>> I agree with most of what you say.
>>
>> Per my statement below: "while eating saturated fats is most likely bad",
>> I never said it has been absolutely proven (like trans-fats).  At one time,
>> this was a slam dunk, but I totally agree that it is now in question.
>> However, there is still a lot of circumstantial evidence that certain types
>> of saturated fat increase the probability of heart disease.  The research
>> continues...
>>
>> While it is more difficult to get all your protein, vitamins, and minerals
>> by going totally vegan (especially in our culture), it is very possible.
>> The "hassle" factor is one reason that I also eat fish, dairy, and eggs.
>>
>>  There are a lot of other reasons for not eating animal products besides
>> our personal health:  environmental impacts (the amount of water required
>> and hiking trails  torn up from cattle, increased methane in the atmosphere,
>> increase use of antibiotics, etc.) as well as the cruel treatment we often
>> give to the poor animals whom we eat and make use of their bodies.
>>
>> I think we all gotta draw the line somewhere.  I choose my line and you
>> choose yours.  I imagine that you do not eat cats or dogs.  Why not?  Many
>> people do.  It is kind of an arbitrary decision...
>>
>> Sym
>>
>> On Thu, Feb 17, 2011 at 2:11 PM, Eric <johner27 at evergreen.edu> wrote:
>>
>>> Sorry to bust your bubble, but the lipid hypothesis is false. There is no
>>> correlation between increased intake in saturated fat and increased
>>> cholesterol.  However, you hit the nail on the head with the bad veggie
>>> foods, which is what many vegetarians and vegans subsist on, sadly. These
>>> foods, along with other grains and compounded with the chemicals such as MSG
>>> in processed foods, are the real culprit in cholesterol levels, obesity, and
>>> type 2 diabetes that is so prevalent nowadays.
>>>
>>> Going vegetarian and eating REAL FOOD is a good way to reduce
>>> cholesterol, but you're losing a huge range of vitamins and minerals offered
>>> by animal meats.  Organ meats are in face the most nutrient dense, and as
>>> you said, grass-fed and open range organic animals are the way to go.
>>> Combining these healthy sources of protein with vegetables, nuts, seeds,
>>> dairy (if you can process it) and some fruits and berries seems to be the
>>> best way to go; why lose a whole food group?
>>>
>>> Fat calories are generally not a problem when consumed with protein, as
>>> the combination of these two leads to sustained satiety.  Other than that, I
>>> agree completely with you :) Basic idea: eat REAL food!
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> Eric
>>>
>>>   On Thu, Feb 17, 2011 at 1:31 PM, Sym Blanchard <symbiosis222 at gmail.com
>>> > wrote:
>>>
>>>>  Yoshi,
>>>> I believe the study you referenced which showed that some vegetarian
>>>> foods raised the bad LDL cholesterol was based on people eating a lot of
>>>> bad
>>>> vegetarian foods, such as potato chips, french fries, white rice, white
>>>> flour, sugar, candy, deep fried vegetables, cake, hydrogenized vegetable
>>>> oils, soft drinks, etc.
>>>>
>>>> Eating good vegetarian foods such as whole fresh fruit, vegetables,
>>>> nuts,
>>>> seeds, legumes, and whole grains have consistently shown to lower bad
>>>> LDL
>>>> cholesterol and raise good HDL cholesterol.  Choosing foods to get a
>>>> good
>>>> ratio between Omega 3 fatty acids and Omega 6 fatty acids will also have
>>>> a
>>>> good affect.
>>>>
>>>> I agree that many animal foods, such as fish, shrimp, squid, eel, etc.
>>>> have
>>>> lots of Omega 3 fatty acids and will help cholesterol levels.  And
>>>> although
>>>> I don't eat any land animals, I understand that wild game and some cuts
>>>> of
>>>> appropriately raised land animals can be good as well (grass fed,
>>>> open-range, non-steroidal, etc.).
>>>>
>>>> I don't think the amount of the good fat is a problem, except that fat
>>>> is
>>>> high in calories and so must be balanced with other foods and exercise.
>>>> Studies have shown that eating lots of mono and poly-unsaturated fats is
>>>> generally good, while eating saturated fats is most likely bad (but
>>>> there is
>>>> still controversy, especially with medium-chain saturated fats like
>>>> coconut
>>>> oil), and trans-fat is definitely bad.
>>>>
>>>> But eating bad animal foods, such as hamburgers, hot dogs, deli meats,
>>>> prime
>>>> rib, Chicken McNuggets, etc. usually have lots of saturated fats, which
>>>> causes the body to create the bad LDL cholesterol.  It is my
>>>> understanding
>>>> that our cholesterol levels come 80% from our own bodies and 20% from
>>>> outside sources.  So it is better to minimize eating bad fats, which
>>>> come
>>>> mainly from land animals.  Even though eggs have lots of cholesterol, I
>>>> think they are still very healthy because they result in very little
>>>> affect
>>>> on cholesterol levels.
>>>>
>>>> I totally agree with you that the use of Statins only lowers the bad LDL
>>>> cholesterol and overall cholesterol, but has not been shown to have a
>>>> good effect on heart disease.   A relationship between the good HDL
>>>> cholesterol and the total cholesterol/HDL ratio of less than 3 has been
>>>> shown to have a very positive effect.
>>>>
>>>> So Melinda's outstandingly great HDL cholesterol of 80 (I am impressed)
>>>> gives her a great cholesterol ratio. I am very proud of my 66 HDL and a
>>>> total cholesterol 139.
>>>>
>>>> I think it is so important to eat whole natural foods, do cardio
>>>> exercise,
>>>> lift weights, get enough sleep, manage stress, avoid environmental
>>>> toxins,
>>>> indulge in CHD, and try to miminize the "quick-fix" medicines that we
>>>> are
>>>> constantly being fed because so few people want to do the right things
>>>> to
>>>> begin with.
>>>>
>>>> Just not part of our American culture...yet.  Hopefully we pick up some
>>>> of
>>>> the habits of your Okinawan bretheren.
>>>>
>>>> Just my 2 cents.
>>>>
>>>> Symbioisis
>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>
>>>> Message: 23
>>>> Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2011 12:53:28 +0900
>>>> From: Yoshihiro Murakami <completewalker at gmail.com>
>>>> Subject: Re: [pct-l] Rx Vytorin
>>>> To: Melanie Clarke <melaniekclarke at gmail.com>
>>>> Cc: pct-l at backcountry.net, Amanda L Silvestri <aslive at sbcglobal.net>
>>>> Message-ID:
>>>>       <AANLkTikBGkQ7UiOa3-adMRE5Ve6H3=HUTYW9-t+piwr6 at mail.gmail.com>
>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>>>>
>>>> Dear Amanda
>>>>
>>>> This topic is difficult for me, there are many technical terms and
>>>> great disputes concerning the cholesterol. I will write very briefly,
>>>> because I have enough time now.
>>>>
>>>> In Japan, there is a great dispute among doctors. I got a guideline of
>>>> cholesterol control for longevity. But I cannot translate properly
>>>> into English. I will try to translate very small parts from the
>>>> guideline.
>>>>
>>>> According to the recent findings( from 2006 ), Statin (control drug )
>>>> decreases LDL cholesterol, but it has no effect to  cardiovascular
>>>> disease, and no effect to longevity. Then, the great dispute arise.
>>>>
>>>> The food intake of vegetable fat in place of  animal fat proved to
>>>> increase the risk of cardiovascular disease, cancer, and  sudden
>>>> death. Dear Melanie, you need not avoid animal fat, of course you need
>>>> pay attention to the total amount of fat. Lesser is better.
>>>>
>>>> The hypothesis of HDL-C and LDL-C in not supported by recent findings.
>>>> In the general population, death rate of high LDL-C group is lower
>>>> than low LDL-C group. The guideline stated that this hypothesis is not
>>>> recommended to use.
>>>>
>>>> To prevent the cardiovascular disease, fish fat ( EPA ) proved to be
>>>> effective. So, Melanie, eat fish sometime. I eat one in a week.
>>>>
>>>> In Japan, margarine is a product from vegetable oil, but margarine is
>>>> proved to increase the risk of kidney trouble and cancer. So,
>>>> margarine is not recommended.
>>>>
>>>> The guideline recommended the control technique of food to  the total
>>>> cholesterol ( 280mm/dL) group and to LDL-C( 180 mg/dL ) group.
>>>>
>>>> Amanda, at least, you need second opinion.
>>>> My recommendation is almost the same with Melanie. Avoid medication,
>>>> Eat lesser fat, but need not to be a vegetarian. And do physical
>>>> exercise regularly. Control your weight.
>>>>
>>>> No time now. bye.
>>>> ___________________________________________________
>>>> 2011/2/17 Melanie Clarke <melaniekclarke at gmail.com>:
>>>> > Dear Amanda,
>>>> >
>>>> > My cholesterol was 230 so I only ate chicken or fish. ?When I went
>>>> back a
>>>> > year later it was 235. ?Then I became vegetarian but I did not eat any
>>>> > cheese or animal fat of any kind. ?That means I could only drink non
>>>> fat
>>>> > milk and eat non fat yogurt and cottage cheese. ?It worked. ?I lowered
>>>> my
>>>> > cholesterol to 170. ?My "good" cholesterol was always high, 80 so 170
>>>> is a
>>>> > very good total for me.
>>>> >
>>>> > Consider managing your cholesterol by being vegetarian with non fat
>>>> milk
>>>> > products and only the egg whites. ?We are active and exercise so it
>>>> should
>>>> > work for you.
>>>> >
>>>> > Melanie
>>>> >
>>>> > On Wed, Feb 16, 2011 at 4:42 PM, Amanda L Silvestri
>>>> <aslive at sbcglobal.net>wrote:
>>>> >
>>>> >> ?My doctor is think of putting me on Vytorin for cholesterol control
>>>>    but
>>>> >> said that a possible side effect could be muscle weakness. ?I am 59
>>>> years
>>>> >> old and hiking to Canada this summer. ?I am concerned about muscle
>>>> >> weakness. ?I know you can't give out medical advice over the Internet
>>>> and
>>>> >> without seeing my blood work, but I would like to know if anyone has
>>>> >> experienced muscle weakness on Vytorin.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Shepherd
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>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Because we don't think about future generations, they will never forget
>>> us.  ~Henrik Tikkanen
>>>
>>> “The things you own end up owning you.”* -*Tyler Durden, *Fight Club*
>>>
>>> "The three most harmful addictions are heroin, carbohydrates, and a
>>> monthly salary."—David Hieatt
>>>
>>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Because we don't think about future generations, they will never forget
> us.  ~Henrik Tikkanen
>
> “The things you own end up owning you.”* -*Tyler Durden, *Fight Club*
>
> "The three most harmful addictions are heroin, carbohydrates, and a monthly
> salary."—David Hieatt
>
>