[pct-l] Giardia
Michael
michael at leftcoastman.com
Fri Oct 22 23:11:53 CDT 2010
10,000 giardia cysts/L is visually not that polluted. Basically, parasitic infections are matter of statistics. Your body does a great job of destroying cysts, we evolved over a few million years to do that. But, if you can only destroy 99.9% of cysts, even if there was only 10 cysts/L, the risk isn't precisely 0.
That being said, most of the water coming out of the Sierras doesn't have giardia. However, since giardia has a huge variety of hosts (even birds), some deer defecating upstream of you could cause the level to skyrocket for a few minutes, until it's diluted. So I agree with the filtering. I'm kind of paranoid about it, because I contracted giardia in Colorado (confirmed by a stool analysis, so it wasn't another disease). I was sick for weeks before it was properly diagnosed. And just so you know, the medication that treats giardia has significant and not very fun side-effects. I am personally paranoid of giardia. I intend to carry Flagyl just in case.
Honestly, despite my own personal paranoia, the bigger concerns are Cryptosporidium and plain old E. coli. If I take care of my filtration device, I can pump 10L in 10 minutes, enough for a couple of days I suppose. I'm all right with that.
And whoever said we need germs to stay healthy really shouldn't say something like that. We rid the planet of smallpox, not because we hung around the germs, but because we vaccinated against it. There is no evidence that repeated exposure to parasites gives you a "healthy immune system", especially since an immune system is so complicated, there are literally thousands of factors that make it "healthy" or not. You might tolerate the parasites, but its effects will reduce your lifespan. There are reasons why the developed world has longer lifespans, it's because we don't get diseases that were predominant 100 years ago.
And seriously, one person's experience is not statistically significant. It's anecdote. People are arguing about this to save a few ounces in their pack? Oops, I probably shouldn't go there. :)
On Oct 22, 2010, at 20:38 :39PDT, pct-l-request at backcountry.net wrote:
------------------------------
Message: 2
Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2010 19:24:11 -0500
From: "Ron Dye" <chiefcowboy at verizon.net>
Subject: Re: [pct-l] CDC recommendations for water treatment
To: "'Diane Soini of Santa Barbara Hikes'"
<diane at santabarbarahikes.com>, <pct-l at backcountry.net>
Message-ID: <009001cb7248$9db5f2f0$d921d8d0$@net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
The primary concern on the trail is Giardia (as it is or was most common).
There have been articles written that suggest the giardia threat has been
exaggerated. I spoke last year on my hike with a water engineer, one who
builds water treatment plants. He lives near Lake Tahoe. He assured me
that it would require one to consume 10,000 giardia cysts to contract the
illness. In other words, some fairly polluted water.
For my personal tastes, I normally filter. I don't enjoy swallowing
floating things I can see. Further, I see no reason why I would take a
chance on ruining a 4-5 month adventure through careless food handling,
sanitation or drinking habits.
-----Original Message-----
From: pct-l-bounces at backcountry.net [mailto:pct-l-bounces at backcountry.net]
On Behalf Of Diane Soini of Santa Barbara Hikes
Sent: Friday, October 22, 2010 7:01 PM
To: pct-l at backcountry.net
Subject: Re: [pct-l] CDC recommendations for water treatment
For water treatment on the PCT I would bring a filter or chemical
treatment and use it as per the instructions. Over and above that, I
wouldn't worry too much about the water. 99% of the time the water is
clean and clear and tastes good.
I met some people in Section E this year who said they never drank
any of the natural water on the trail. As they ate their lunch, I
reached into the guzzler and fixed up a liter of water to take with
me. They reacted in horror. They said they only drank water from
cashes or faucets. I thought that was incredible and stupid.
People worry way too much. I rarely treated any water beyond the High
Sierra. I was more paranoid the first time through the Sierra and
now, after a second time, I would treat very little of it. I admit to
never treating water that comes from a pipe even if it is filling up
a cattle trough, but I will filter or treat the water in the trough.
I think we get so paranoid about germs in all the wrong places. We
need some germs to keep our immune systems healthy. If you want to
worry about germs, worry about potty germs, germs on people's (and
your own) hands, germs on unrefrigerated foods that should be
refrigerated. Things of that nature. Where do you think your drinking
water comes from? It comes from the rivers and streams in your
watershed. They put some chemicals in it and you drink it from your
faucet after it runs through the pipes. It's probably less pure
having to run through your pipes and your dirty faucet nozzle than it
is running through a mountain stream.
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------------------------------
Message: 3
Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2010 18:48:28 -0700 (PDT)
From: Edward Anderson <mendoridered at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [pct-l] CDC recommendations for water treatment
To: Diane Soini of Santa Barbara Hikes <diane at santabarbarahikes.com>
Cc: pct-l at backcountry.net
Message-ID: <187030.86824.qm at web111611.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Dianne,? That was a very?good post.? I agree.? If you are careful when selecting
your water sources you will rarely feel a need to either filter your water?or
have to?resort to treating it with chemicals. However, it's a good idea to bring
along a way to purify water in an emergency. A few years ago I even
experimented? with getting water from damp earth.? I condensed it by spreading a
30" square sheet of clear plastic over a hole that I dug to damp earth.? My cup
was placed under the middle with a rock directly above it.? I weighted down the
perimeter with more dirt and rocks.? I got a drip, drip, drip of good water as
the condensation ran down the plastic.? I know - it's slow, but after some time
I had a cup of water. I used to bring the plastic along, among other things, in
a fanny pack?on long conditioning rides.? If I had an accident and broke my
leg?and there was no water around I might?be able to get some by this method.?
Now, I just carry a knapsack with what I might need, including water, and, on
the PCT, even my sleeping bag. If?your horse runs off (as Primo did, in a panic,
in Washington when we came upon llamas)?you must have everything you need to
survive.?Of course, I also always carry a SPOT.
MendoRider
________________________________
From: Diane Soini of Santa Barbara Hikes <diane at santabarbarahikes.com>
To: pct-l at backcountry.net
Sent: Fri, October 22, 2010 5:01:02 PM
Subject: Re: [pct-l] CDC recommendations for water treatment
For water treatment on the PCT I would bring a filter or chemical?
treatment and use it as per the instructions. Over and above that, I?
wouldn't worry too much about the water. 99% of the time the water is?
clean and clear and tastes good.
I met some people in Section E this year who said they never drank?
any of the natural water on the trail. As they ate their lunch, I?
reached into the guzzler and fixed up a liter of water to take with?
me. They reacted in horror. They said they only drank water from?
cashes or faucets. I thought that was incredible and stupid.
People worry way too much. I rarely treated any water beyond the High?
Sierra. I was more paranoid the first time through the Sierra and?
now, after a second time, I would treat very little of it. I admit to?
never treating water that comes from a pipe even if it is filling up?
a cattle trough, but I will filter or treat the water in the trough.
I think we get so paranoid about germs in all the wrong places. We?
need some germs to keep our immune systems healthy. If you want to?
worry about germs, worry about potty germs, germs on people's (and?
your own) hands, germs on unrefrigerated foods that should be?
refrigerated. Things of that nature. Where do you think your drinking?
water comes from? It comes from the rivers and streams in your?
watershed. They put some chemicals in it and you drink it from your?
faucet after it runs through the pipes. It's probably less pure?
having to run through your pipes and your dirty faucet nozzle than it?
is running through a mountain stream.
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------------------------------
Message: 4
Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2010 19:01:47 -0700
From: David Thibault <dthibaul07 at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [pct-l] CDC recommendations for water treatment
To: pct-l at backcountry.net
Message-ID:
<AANLkTikz1AF=G8xQtB-gAGrbXSfq81U75FzaYkJzk=NA at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Aquamira is available in two forms, a tablet form and a liquid form.
The liquid form seems to be used by hikers more often as it is a lot less
expensive.
Aquamira contains Chlorine Dioxide but does not use chlorine to kill bugs.
It creates free Oxygen via a reaction between the two chemicals that are
mixed together.
While Aquamira has an expiration date -- if the mixture turns yellow it is
still good as this indicates the chemical reaction has happened and the O2
was created.
PolarPure is an Iodine based product. If I remember correctly you add water
to a bottle containing a bunch of Iodine impregnated pellets and the Iodine
leeches out into the water. You then pour this small amount of iodine water
into the water you want to treat.
I personally do not like the idea of drinking water with iodine for long
periods of time so use aquamira. I have no reason for this preference other
than it is my preference.
I was told that some Iodine products are used in the manufacture of Crystal
Meth. California has made it harder to get some products with iodine to
limit this production. CA used to have a problem with Aquamira due to the
method off use - the way the product was mixed etc.. I believe the labeling
has been changed to appease CA. It now says the product is to "improve
taste" as opposed to killing bugs.
Hope this helps.
Day-Late
Thanks for posting to further the discussion.
>
> Could you give some feedback on your use of Aqua Mira? I've not used the
> product
> myself.
>
> Some dislike the cost and some dislike the expiration dates which add to
> the
> cost. I've heard
> complaints about the four hours to kill crypto, but I figure thats a
> manageable
> time if a hiker
> doesn't wait until the last second before resupply of his water.
>
>
>
>
> .endations for water treatment
>
>
> hello,
>
> I'm new the the forum, but what does everyone think about polar pure?
>
> .
>
>
------------------------------
Message: 5
Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2010 19:07:28 -0700 (PDT)
From: Edward Anderson <mendoridered at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [pct-l] Bikes on the PCT
To: tokencivilian at yahoo.com
Cc: pct-l at backcountry.net
Message-ID: <767205.70091.qm at web111612.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Think about it - if the fines were big enough an extra Ranger could be hired to
catch them. Jobs are needed.? Since that won't happen - I say, "go ahead and
stomp the spokes".
MendoRider
________________________________
From: "tokencivilian at yahoo.com" <tokencivilian at yahoo.com>
To: PCT L <pct-l at backcountry.net>
Sent: Fri, October 22, 2010 4:12:17 PM
Subject: [pct-l] Bikes on the PCT
I had a run in with a group of bikers in the same area that is mentioned in he
noted journal entry.? One hopes the PCTA will work with the local forest service
district on some enforcement.? If it weren't illegal, I'd suggest destroying
their bikes (spokes and wheels are quite vulnerable to a good stomping) hence
turning the bikers into hikers.? But alas, we are a society of laws, not men, so
one must use the law.?
As regards the bikers north of stampede pass, I'm going to forward that on to
the local PCTA regional rep in the hope she can persuade the Cle? Elum Ranger
district to perhaps do something about it.
More generally, this is a subject that ought to be a topic for the PCTA to bring
up before congress on their annual hike the hill efforts.? Until the throttle
twisters and mountain bikers start losing their machines in addition to a fine
for violating either wilderness or the no bikes on the PCT regulations they'll
flout the restrictions with near impunity.
TC
PS - there is nothing I like better than a sweet piece of good single track on
my trek 6700 hardtail.? But, the PCT isn't the place to find it.
Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
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------------------------------
Message: 6
Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2010 20:38:38 -0700 (PDT)
From: jcil000-pctchat at yahoo.com
Subject: Re: [pct-l] CDC recommendations for water treatment
To: Edward Anderson <mendoridered at yahoo.com>
Cc: pct-l at backcountry.net
Message-ID: <828181.43366.qm at web120617.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Mendo,
You really took me back with that trick.
I once saw it described and diagrammed maybe about 25 years back. I always
wanted to try
it to see how effective it worked, if at all.
How long did it take you to obtain one cup? Probably all day. I'm sure hot
environments
would be faster. Curious if it would work in the desert by digging a deeper
hole.
________________________________
From: Edward Anderson <mendoridered at yahoo.com>
To: Diane Soini of Santa Barbara Hikes <diane at santabarbarahikes.com>
Cc: pct-l at backcountry.net
Sent: Fri, October 22, 2010 6:48:28 PM
Subject: Re: [pct-l] CDC recommendations for water treatment
Dianne, That was a very good post. I agree. If you are careful when selecting
your water sources you will rarely feel a need to either filter your water or
have to resort to treating it with chemicals. However, it's a good idea to bring
along a way to purify water in an emergency. A few years ago I even
experimented with getting water from damp earth. I condensed it by spreading a
30" square sheet of clear plastic over a hole that I dug to damp earth. My cup
was placed under the middle with a rock directly above it. I weighted down the
perimeter with more dirt and rocks. I got a drip, drip, drip of good water as
the condensation ran down the plastic. I know - it's slow, but after some time
I had a cup of water. I used to bring the plastic along, among other things, in
a fanny pack on long conditioning rides. If I had an accident and broke my
leg and there was no water around I might be able to get some by this method.
Now, I just carry a knapsack with what I might need, including water, and, on
the PCT, even my sleeping bag. If your horse runs off (as Primo did, in a panic,
in Washington when we came upon llamas) you must have everything you need to
survive. Of course, I also always carry a SPOT.
MendoRider
________________________________
From: Diane Soini of Santa Barbara Hikes <diane at santabarbarahikes.com>
To: pct-l at backcountry.net
Sent: Fri, October 22, 2010 5:01:02 PM
Subject: Re: [pct-l] CDC recommendations for water treatment
For water treatment on the PCT I would bring a filter or chemical
treatment and use it as per the instructions. Over and above that, I
wouldn't worry too much about the water. 99% of the time the water is
clean and clear and tastes good.
I met some people in Section E this year who said they never drank
any of the natural water on the trail. As they ate their lunch, I
reached into the guzzler and fixed up a liter of water to take with
me. They reacted in horror. They said they only drank water from
cashes or faucets. I thought that was incredible and stupid.
People worry way too much. I rarely treated any water beyond the High
Sierra. I was more paranoid the first time through the Sierra and
now, after a second time, I would treat very little of it. I admit to
never treating water that comes from a pipe even if it is filling up
a cattle trough, but I will filter or treat the water in the trough.
I think we get so paranoid about germs in all the wrong places. We
need some germs to keep our immune systems healthy. If you want to
worry about germs, worry about potty germs, germs on people's (and
your own) hands, germs on unrefrigerated foods that should be
refrigerated. Things of that nature. Where do you think your drinking
water comes from? It comes from the rivers and streams in your
watershed. They put some chemicals in it and you drink it from your
faucet after it runs through the pipes. It's probably less pure
having to run through your pipes and your dirty faucet nozzle than it
is running through a mountain stream.
_______________________________________________
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------------------------------
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