[pct-l] VVR2 / using the word 'shady'

Fri Mar 12 12:28:43 CST 2010

Junaid - 

OMG... I owe you a MAJOR apology.  While I stand behind everything I have said regarding the resupply boxes, I've realized something that I did not realize before.

Immediately after posting to the PCT-L, asking you about the reasons why you found the owner to be shady, I got a response to our pct-l at edisonlake.com account, NOT to the list.  The email address was different from yours, but was replying to my question to you.  I ASSUMED that this was you with a different email address.  In this email, this person claimed that the reason he thought VVR was a mistake was because Jim "overcharged" him $60 and was seen pulling things out of the hiker barrel.  The way the email was worded, it was in direct response to the question I asked you.  My error was that I assumed it was you responding.  

Over the course of yesterday and this morning, we've received numerous emails from this person.  He's been accusing us of many things offline - and things different to what you were accusing us of online.

This last post of yours caused me to go back and re-read every online and offline communication.  Once I did that, I realized that there was NOTHING tying your posts to this other person's emails, except my original assumption based on the timeliness and the content of the email that the two of you were one and the same.  

That has been confusing me the entire time; how you could say one thing publicly, and another privately?

I now realize that with you, I've been arguing the policy of taking food out of the unclaimed hiker boxes and selling it.  And I've been arguing this with you ENTIRELY on the list.  My defense of this still stands, and my concern over your characterization of Jim as "shady"... BUT... I am now much less upset over your accusations, as I now realize that it was NOT you who was emailing me privately making the other ridiculous accusations.  And it was NOT you that emailed with Jim...

I hope you can forgive me... I feel terrible about confusing the two... but if you could actually see how quickly the response came back, and how perfectly worded it was in response to my question to you (it even quoted my response to you), then I think you'd realize how easy it was for me to make this mistake.

What concerns me is that this person is actually monitoring this list... obviously, because he responded to my original response to you... but he hasn't stepped up and said "No Bill, it's not Junaid you've been communicating with, it's me".  And of course, he never signed his emails, which even further added to the confusion.

Again, I'm sorry for confusing you with another... had it not been for your adamant stance in our first paragraph below, I might have continued in my confusion!

Bill

On Mar 12, 2010, at 10:57 AM, Junaid Dawud wrote:

> I've never sent anyone, you, Jim, anyone, an off list / private email. There is no duplicity here. I always say what I mean, regardless of who I'm speaking to. All of my posts have been to the pct-l.
> 
> I've also been completely consistent about stating and restating that these are simply my opinions based on my experiences. I'm not a reporter, just one of many hikers.
> 
> I have perhaps been unclear about the unclaimed boxes being sold seeming shady vs the owner seeming shady. I can clear that up now. My interactions with him gave me a shady impression, the practice of reselling unclaimed packages also seems shady. Again, simply my opinion.
> 
> My 'mistake' wasn't paying $10 for my package, or even going to vvr. It was NOT having researched and found out about mono hotsprings, which I loved. I'm not even 'anti-vvr', many love it and it provides hiker services, so good on em. I just like mono and wish I had known about it prior to arriving. It would've saved me money and taken less time than going to both.
> 
> Sorry for starting such a high emotions thread, I just like mono hotsprings.
> 
> 
> Junaid
> 
> On Mar 12, 2010, at 10:01 AM, Vermilion Valley Resort <pct-l at edisonlake.com> wrote:
> 
>> Junaid,
>> 
>> A lot of this is stemming from the fact that you can't get your accusations straight.
>> 
>> By that I mean that on the list, you are talking about us taking stuff out of the unclaimed resupply boxes and selling it - something that is no secret - our website specifically states that we do this from time to time for unclaimed boxes.  This is what I've been defending against on the list.
>> 
>> BUT.. in private, in emails between you and I, and you and Jim, you accuse us of taking things out of the hiker barrels - something we never do, and something that would be almost sacrilegious to us and many others.
>> 
>> So which is it?  Are you upset about the unclaimed boxes, or the hiker barrels?  The persisting rumor is that we take out of the hiker barrels... which we NEVER do.  We used to clean the barrels of spoiled stuff; we don't even do that anymore - we let the hikers police the barrel themselves.
>> 
>> You state here that you stated only your opinion and qualified it as such.  In your email to Jim you state that you never called him shady, but referred to the practice as shady (which you've done here again).
>> 
>> First - in your original posting to this very list with the subject line of "Mistakes", you specifically say "Then, sending a package to VVR, I think the owner was shady."  To me, that's calling the owner shady without anything to back it up.  Not the practice - the owner.
>> 
>> Secondly, the term "shady" as you use it, is defined on dictionary.com as:
>> 
>> "of dubious character; rather disreputable: shady dealings."
>> 
>> Which effectively brings the character of Jim and his staff into question.  How can this policy be "shady", when it's done out in the open, and is clearly identified on the resupply page of the website?  And how can anyone implementing this policy be considered shady when you know of it ahead of time?  If you look at our resupply page to get the resupply address, the policy is clearly discussed there - http://www.edisonlake.com/hikers/resupply.  And quite frankly, if the original owner doesn't care about his/her box and lets it go unclaimed, why do you care what we do with it?
>> 
>> Finally... if this policy is "shady" to you - what would you suggest we do to recoup the costs of picking up the resupply box 1 hour away at Rancheria Garage, driving it down the road to VVR, logging it in, and storing it?  If we can't recoup that cost, storing resupply boxes might end up being a losing proposition for us - which would force us to stop offering the service.  We certainly don't want to do that... it's an important service that we provide.  So... do you have an alternative solution?  If somebody doesn't pick up their resupply, and doesn't contact us - what should we do about it?  Ship it back?!?  At our cost?!?  Tell me who on the trail does that to an unclaimed box.  And what business could survive doing that on a consistent basis?
>> 
>> I appreciate that you say these are just your opinions.  Fine - then present them as such, and please don't make unfounded accusations.  If you must make accusations... make them consistently and offer some sort of proof.  I'm tired of addressing one accusation publicly, and another privately.
>> 
>> Jim has already contacted you and made the offer for you to visit over a beer, rather than discuss this any further over a keyboard.
>> 
>> Bill
>> 
>> 
>> On Mar 12, 2010, at 9:06 AM, Junaid Dawud wrote:
>> 
>>> Ok. First off, my opinions were offered as just that, opinions. If you
>>> don't like my opinions or have some that run contrary to mine, that's
>>> great - I'm probably in the minority on this one. I'd like to think
>>> that the pct-l is a forum where reasonable minds may differ (though
>>> some of the silly wars I saw in 2006 and the current assault on the
>>> people hiking with a baby would suggest that this is not always so).
>>> 
>>> As Ive already said, VVR was a mistake FOR ME. I say that primarily
>>> because I think mono hotsprings is a better place FOR ME. Why? --->
>>> hotsprings, free camping, a PO, a warm lake with fun cliff jumping.
>>> 
>>> And again, as I've said, many liked vvr and I'm not trying to tell
>>> people that they should not go, indeed the pie alone could be worth
>>> the visit.
>>> 
>>> I did in fact talk to the owner about the resupply merchandise on his
>>> shelves. He said what others have said, he opens the unclaimed boxes
>>> at the end of the season and sells the stuff. For some thats fine, I
>>> do think it's shady. To my knowledge there are no other places we send
>>> packages that do this.
>>> 
>>> Some have urged me to offer a speedy and public apology so as to
>>> maintain the good will of the vvr folks to hikers and to avoid a
>>> lawsuit. Let me be clear, I will never offer such an apology. Ever. I
>>> stated my opinions and qualified them as such. I invited the VVR folks
>>> to offer their perspective, which they have. People with minds can
>>> read both sides and make their own decisions about what they want to do.
>>> 
>>> To the folks at VVR, I'd suggest that the persistence of the 'rumor'
>>> has much to do with the fact that there's some truth to it: unclaimed
>>> boxes become merchandise. I had boxes I didn't claim at other resupply
>>> points, they were returned to me. You might consider rethinking your
>>> practice, contact other businesses that cater to hikers and see how
>>> they handle unclaimed boxes.
>>> 
>>> Finally, get a grip people. It's a discussion forum, let's discuss
>>> without getting so worked up that spittle accumulates on our screens.
>>> 
>>> "above all else remember this: to thine own self be true."
>>> 
>>> Junaid
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>> 