[pct-l] Just going to put this out there for Metzger to

[Kent Spring]

Hi L-Rod, Easy, et al:
 
It is interesting to have this discussion.  However, the PCT-L is not fundamentally about free speech or even about being nice to lost souls.  It is fundamentally about the PCT.  Reinhold occasionally offers up something of value for those of us on the PCT.  However, he regularly writes offensive comments talking about his sexual prowess.  I am older than either L-Rod or R, and have been around awhile.  Last year my  trail name was "What the fuck?" for awhile, so I guess I qualify as crude enough.  
 
However, I don't get it with Reinhold.  What is his problem?  We have ignored it long enough - I receive the PCT-L in digest form, and I have to scan the 'agenda' to see where Reinhold has written, so that I know what posts to simply skip.  I don't mind reading comments that don't apply to me or affect me, but I do mind stupidity.  I do mind reading comments that are offensive.  
 
This started with an offensive comment from Postholer in response to a message from Reinhold.  I just looked up TROLL in wikipedia: An Internet troll, or simply troll in Internet slang, is someone who posts controversial, inflammatory, irrelevant or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum or chat room, with the primary intent of provoking other users into an emotional response or to generally disrupt normal on-topic discussion.  
 
This seems to be the intent of Reinhold.  I think that the PCT-L shows maturity when it allows people to discuss the wide range of topics that confront people on the PCT.  This would be things like: trail runners vs. hiking boots, tents vs. tarps, dogs and horses on the trail, whether the PCTA is a good group or not...  We have plenty of topics that are might be hot button or mundane, but we don't need sexual rants.  I don't truly know the inner intent of Reinhold, but I do see what his result is.  It is quite different from the language and direction of someone like Switchback.  Reinhold simply hasn't grown up.
 
I will repeat: It is time for Reinhold to go somewhere else to play.
 
Respectfully submitted, Kent


 

Date: Mon, 4 May 2009 12:03:12 -0700

Hi, Easy.  No offense taken, but a response in order. 

I don't recall saying that it was "all in good fun." Not so at
all; that
would imply agreement with such attitudes. What I do offer is an excuse of
behaviors and attitudes more common to older generations that are no longer
culturally acceptable.  I try to temper my disdain for offensive remarks
with some understanding of where that person is coming from.  I see this
same sort of disturbing thing in many older people, even sometimes my own
parents. I recognize biases, though abhorrent, to be intrinsic to humanity.
Also, too, please note  I advocated telling someone they're being offensive
(on any subject).  The dialog has been healthy - but I don't think a mob
mentality to run Reinhold off the list is kind or generous in any way.  If
this were going on upon the trail, hikers would merely avoid him, not group
up to run him off the trail.  Why?  Because he has as much right to be here
as we do.

 

I believe we need to extend tolerance to one another, whenever we can.
Nothing is gained when we silence or eradicate every voice that doesn't
agree with ours.  We need to support free speech, even when we might find
that speech offensive.  Each of us has a choice whether we want to listen or
not.  No one is holding a gun to your head making you read the pct-l, and no
one guaranteed that everything on the list  would be worthwhile.  It's
different things to different people, and some people, especially among
hikers are very,  very, different.  

 

L-Rod

 

p.s.  I've never met Reinhold and I rarely read his messages.  In fairness,
I don't read most of the messages on the pct-l as they are largely
repetitive or irrelevant to me.  I enjoy Facebook a whole lot more these
days.

 

From: Will Hiltz [mailto:will.hiltz at gmail.com] 
Sent: Monday, May 04, 2009 10:35 AM
To: Donna Saufley
Cc: mark v; pct-l at backcountry.net
Subject: Re: [pct-l] Just going to put this out there for Metzger to
consider

 

Donna-


Thank you for all that you do for the trail.  The PCT is an amazing thing,
and would be considerably less so without your contribution year in, year
out.  

However, with respect, this is a bunch of malarkey.  If Reinhold was making
"un-PC" comments regarding racial minorities or LBGT individuals
would you
still be making the "this is all in good fun" argument?  It is an
unfortunate piece of our collective history that this kind of behaivor is
excused as being somehow more acceptable than other types of "non-pc"
"humor".


For my part, I see someone-- whatever his hiking credentials-- who is unable
to control himself from making intentionally provocative comments and is
generally in need of large amounts of attention couched in purile and
juvenile at best humor.  We call these people trolls.  Why should the fact
that he's hiked a lot have anything to do with it?

Repeated pirate/sex jokes have rapidly diminishing returns for those of us
on this list for its stated purpose... to gain information about and discuss
issues relating to the PCT. I can see how you have a more-sympathetic view
on this than most knowing Reinhold personally and featuring occasionally in
his missives, but just take a step back here.  I am quite sure there are
many listservs devoted to obtuse humor out on the internets.  Perhaps the
practitioners of the "comedy" routine and those who wish to follow it
might
be best served elsewhere?


Easy

On Mon, May 4, 2009 at 11:16 AM, Donna Saufley <dsaufley at sprynet.com>
wrote:

Geez, Mark.  If you didn't like the list, you didn't have to
participate.
Last time I checked, this was voluntary. If you didn't like certain topics,
threads, or posters, you can delete them before ever reading them.  You can
block email addresses too, eliminating posts from those who annoy you. I
find it very interesting that you chose to subject yourself to something you
didn't like, and then want to blame it on others.

As to Reinhold, I put this out there for ALL to consider.  We are a diverse
group in many, many ways on the social, economic, and generational scales.
Views, attitudes, and political leanings range the spectrum.  Risking the
folly of stereotyping, the young and the diversity/sensitivity-trained on
this list know that sexist or racial comments are wrong and unacceptable,
yet it is generally acknowledged that many in the older generation do not
seem to have caught onto the shift in attitudes and acceptability. IMHO,
Reinhold is simply an example of that. Does that make him an evil troll?
No.  It merely makes him an example of a generation that doesn't see the
harm in making sexist or very un-PC remarks.  Personally, I don't think
Reinhold has never meant to cause offense.  I perceive that he may be
oblivious to the fact that many find his comments about females and sex
offensive.

It is good and healthy and right to tell someone that you find their remarks
offensive, but the call for outright banishment is a pretty severe reaction,
especially for someone as accomplished on trails as Reinhold.  Perhaps this
brouhaha will temper his comments going forward.  At least we can hope.  He
is valued as a member of this community, and is respected in many circles
for his achievements in the hiking world. He has a wealth of experience,
passion for the trail, and unflaggingly attempts to lighten the attitude of
the list through his (sometimes misguided) attempts at cheerfulness and
humor.

As for me, I treasure the crusty relics of a past generation, even though I
don't personally share their views.  Jack Fair was one of the most
offensive, foul-mouthed, course-edged cantankerous old guys that ever walked
the earth, but was also one of the most beloved and memorable people along
the trail. The world may be more politically correct, but it is certainly a
lot more bland without the imperfect characters in it.

L-Rod



-----Original Message-----
From: pct-l-bounces at backcountry.net [mailto:pct-l-bounces at backcountry.net]
On Behalf Of mark v
Sent: Sunday, May 03, 2009 3:35 PM
To: pct-l at backcountry.net

Subject: [pct-l] Just going to put this out there for Metzger to consider






This will probably get ME banned, but i'll consider it a favor.

Metzger (and 1 or 2 other post-ers, maximum), as part of the class of 08,
i'd like to let you know that to those that i hiked with and met, your
posts
make this otherwise worthwhile listserv an absolute joke.  All summer long,
the mere mention of PCT-L made EVERY hiker shake their head in dismay. 
It's
really hard to sift through the rubbish generated by you (which remains in
digest form, and in the posts of people who feel they need to counter it
with replies), even with you on ignore.  You may feel that it's just JoAnn
complaining, but i guarantee you it's not.  She's just the one who
cares
enough to make the effort to type her complaint.

The rest of us roll our eyes, and eventually give up on the list.  Thanks
for doing your part to ruin what could be a good resource for hikers
interested in the trail.  If you decide to keep up your act, the trail will
go on...just with one fewer place where one can go to learn about it.