[pct-l] Snow Prep Course Concern

Wed Feb 18 23:30:08 CST 2009

Hello, Vincent!

Thanks for your interest in what we're trying to offer in the form of free and informative weekend snow training (not exclusively) geared for thru hikers.

There are still openings in the March weekend Courses (April is booked). The material is all taught and demonstrated on-snow in Desolation Wilderness, South Lake Tahoe. If you're serious about driving down, maybe there will be more folks from up your way who will join you in a carpool to help share the expense once they hear of your intentions.

Now, to answer your questions as they pertain to our course and, perhaps, to your thru planning....
[keep in mind all my answers are given in light of the two course objectives mentioned earlier]

If you decide to join, bring the gear that you will be carrying from Kennedy Meadows into the Sierra (with a few exceptions mentioned below). If you will be bringing the 20-degree bag and accompanying pad, then this is the chance to test it out. My thoughts? This bag with down booties, long underwear, wool shirt, and hat ought to do well enough. If the pad is too thin (thermarest at 1" is marginal), then you will have difficult nights with lots of rolling around. An R-value of 2.1 is not much, at least as that number relates to home insulation with which I am familiar. My past students often brought two foam pads instead of the usual, summer, one. The booties we strongly recommend as comfy, in-tent camp shoes and for the late night, over-snow short trips. They weigh and stuff into next to nothing and keep your feet warm as you wander in and out of your tent in the evenings.

Clothing-wise, we don't experience too many nights in the teens and certainly the days are warmer. The cotton sweatshirt is not the best, but we've seen with great success cotton tee shirts under turtlenecks under wool shirts or fleece and under down parkas (all in the worst of conditions under a wind-proof shell). Layer up with what you have and chase the whole mess with water-proof, wind-proof shells (plural because you'll need the covering for the legs as well). You'll need the wool or wind-stopper fleece hat and two pair of mittens (not to mention 2 or 3 pair of performance socks).

For the purposes of this course, with all the falling in the snow and self-arresting, we ask that students bring lots of clothes to change into. There's no room for getting cold and wet. We've seen everything and a lot of it doesn't work. However, in the process of learning students go home and select just the right clothing to make it from Mexico to Canada, even in the snow. Cotton, typically, is not the right choice, but that depends on the quality and durability of your outer water-proof layer and how much you are sweating. I've been known to wear long underwear, a wool, woodsman's shirt, and a Gore-Tex/Cordura parka and be bomb-proof (though bulky and heavy), happy, and warm. This training trip is all about finding out what works for you and not about going lightweight. Take what you learn from this trip and put together your own arsenal of clothing that works for your metabolism. If you can rent, borrow, buy second-hand, etc., what you can from the start. Revise later.

"Shoes with teeth" referred to the type of snowshoes like these http://www.rei.com/category/40004010 for example (rentable). Do not bring running shoes for the sake of this trip. (Rentable snowboard boots work great!) When you leave KM, you may if you so choose. We will talk at length about the pros and cons of shoes with teeth and "shoes with teeth" once out on the snow.

Shelter. Bring your 3-season tent for the purposes of this Course. Your tarp, in the right campsite, will work fine, also. As one man recently put it, test your tarp system out in your backyard in the rain before you decide to rely on it on the trail.

Melting snow in tent. The second pot is meant for carrying snow into your tent and melting it one spoonful at a time, at first. The more you can bring in, the less often you have to go outside to get more. Some students bring all manner of second pots, even Tupperware! We will, of course, be teaching how to brave the hazards of creek and lake edges to get water. Bring your filter.

Making do with what you have is half the fun, but you've got to know what works and what doesn't. Some of that I can forewarn you and some you have to decide for yourself. Our advise is to get you started.
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Vincent Rupp 
  To: ned at pacificcrestcustombuilders.com 
  Sent: Wednesday, February 18, 2009 1:22 PM
  Subject: Re: [pct-l] Snow Prep Course Concern

  Hey Ned,

  Please pardon me if I'm a little late to the discussion, but a snow course sounds great. I am definitely wondering if I'm prepared for possible snow travel in the Sierras. I saw you mentioned the weekends in March and the Santa Rosa area. I'm in Portland, but it might be worth a drive down. How much is the course?

  As for equipment, after reading your e-mail, I feel a little underequipped myself. But you did tell Phil not to let that deter him, so I'm hoping you can answer a couple questions to allay my concerns.

  My sleeping bag is rated to 20. From what I read, that'll be fine on the PCT with the liner and extra clothes. But there's no way to get that to -5, is there? And my thermarest is a foam pad with an R-value only 2.1. Sounds like I'd suffer some pretty cold nights in the course, which wouldn't be too bad (learning exercise) as long as I'm not TOO cold.

  And clothes, well, I lived in Texas for a few years and Portland for the last two. I bought some stuff specific for the PCT, but I doubt it'd be good enough for prolonged zero-F weather. Most of my other warmth gear is like cotton sweatshirts, which apparently will get wet and endanger my life. I don't have really warm gloves for digging in snow or any head protection more than a wool cap.

  I also don't have shoes with teeth. I could put some screws into the bottoms of my running shoes (a la http://www.skyrunner.com/screwshoe.htm) to create traction. Would that be good enough?

  Shelter for the course is covered - I have a 3-season freestanding tent with rainfly. But I'm not taking that on the PCT since it's 5 lbs fully packed. Could I bring my new Tarptent to the course or would that be foolish? I doubt it'll reliably stake in the snow, but it sounds like I can plan around that on the PCT.

  Big pot? I have only one pot and a bowl that fits inside it, unless I bring an old pot from my kitchen. I could probably cram that into my bag.

  Anyway, I love the idea of making do with what I have, but it does sound like gear is an issue.

  Thanks,
  Vincent

  On Wed, Feb 18, 2009 at 10:51 AM, <ned at pacificcrestcustombuilders.com> wrote:

    Phil,

    I am sharing my reply to the L because your situation is somewhat typical of so many thru hikers' and is why this Course is being offered.

    The fact that you're aware you need the experience and that it would build your confidence, extend your hiking season, and minimize your exposure to snow-related challenges shows thoroughness in your preparation and maturity in your foresight. At least you're not running blindly into your trip hoping that you'll be able to learn as you go from others along the way only to find that they're not there when you need them or the risks are greater than you thought they'd be because you didn't bring some thing or skill which you suddenly find that you need.

    You say you're not prepared for a snow travel and camping course because of equipment issues and your plan will be to try to avoid snow wherever possible. This plan is always the first rule, avoidance, but not always possible as many will attest who have traveled the Sierra. This is one reason why the Snow Course is offered and why you were originally interested in it, to be prepared to skillfully travel over snow with greater confidence and safety when you can't avoid it.

    Equipment-wise, the only items lacking from summer to winter are clothing layers and snowshoes, at least for this course. Snowshoes can be rented. Whatever else you don't have now will also have to do when you run into that snowfield in the Sierra you can't go around.

    The other reason the Snow Course is offered is to test your systems as chosen for your thru (clothing, food, shelter, gear, etc.) to see if you are  adequately prepared for snow-related challenges before they face you out on the trail and you suddenly find your safety may be at risk.

    What we are offering, here, is an opportunity for hikers to learn how to safely extend their hiking skills onto the snow. Thru hikers are given the chance to test themselves and equipment in winter/spring snow conditions under guidance and supervision using the skills and gear they expect to need during their 3 to 5-month mountainous journeys. Many realize that they were not aware of snow-related challenges, that they could just "deal with it," and with a little re-tooling of clothing and gear based on their individual abilities and desires that their confidence increased and there was less doubt, uncertainty, or fear.

    Training or experience builds confidence which allows fun and enjoyment. "Learn before you go" decreases the risks inherent with "learn as you go."

    If you can make the Course, it can only help the pleasure you'll get out of your future outings.

    Mtnned
     ----- Original Message -----
     From: Phil Newhouse
     To: ned at pacificcrestcustombuilders.com
     Sent: Wednesday, February 18, 2009 9:15 AM
     Subject: Re: Prep Questions

     Ned,

     After re-reading this thread, I have come to the conclusion that I am not adequately prepared to attend the course at this time...

     I have only been back-packing for the last couple of years on the PCT:  section hiking from Campo to Whitney in 2007.
     I only have 3 weather equipment at this time...frankly, I wanted to take your course so I could gear up for 3 1/2 season hiking (be prepared and not turned back by passable snow covered part of the trail).

     My current strategy is to schedule my hike thru the Sierra to minimize my exposure to snow challenges:  that said, I am looking forward to the time that I live for such challenges...

     I think your course would provide me a great foundation to extend my hiking season...I hope I will have the same opportunity next year, but this year I am not equipped for the course.  I hope I don't regret this choice later this year.

     Please take me off the registration list for the March 15 session.

     Thanks much for your invitation and dialogue on snow travel...

     phil newhouse

     On Sun, Feb 8, 2009 at 1:01 PM, <ned at pacificcrestcustombuilders.com> wrote:

       Very good questions. Here are our thoughts on each subject:

       Snow shoes and snow conditions-

       Snow shoes expand the size of your footprint on the snow so that you can walk on the soft surface of the snow without sinking in. The softer the snow, the bigger the snow shoe needs to be. One of the difficulties of snowshoeing comes when you sink enough to gather snow on top of the shoe when you lift your foot out of the hole. That much more weight can become very tiring over the course of the day.

       So, idealistically, you want to know the snow conditions where you're going so you can have the right size shoe to optimize your flotation.

       Here is reality. Not only do the snow conditions change with the storms, they change throughout the day. Before April, when new snow usually stops falling and the ambient temperatures historically start to increase, and thus consolidate the snowpack into a harder, walk able (without snow shoes) surface, there can be deep powder to negotiate. However, these soft conditions can occur with the next surprise storm (any time of year). In the spring, when you thru hikers will be going through the Sierra, the pack is usually consolidated and able to be walked upon from sun-up to about 10 or noon when you begin to sink a little, then post-hole. When I head into the Sierra to do a trans-sierra traverse or the Muir during the months of March-June, I only carry snow shoes or skis if I intend to hike into the afternoon and don't want to be slowed down by incessant post-holing. It is possible to rise early enough to accomplish your 10 miles per day before noon or one o'clock. It is fa
     irly unrealistic to expect to do more miles that that if your whole day is on snow.

       It is our recommendation that you bring the shoes you will be taking on your thru. They may be too small for this time of year, so you will sink more than you'd like, but the experience with them is worthwhile, even if the going is harder. In the afternoon in the spring Sierra, the snow gets so soft it turns into "mashed potatoes," which is akin to the soft, sink-able stuff you'll experience in March/April. If you are not going to be thru-hiking and simply want the training with snow camping and travel, then bring (rent) shoes that are bigger for the softer snow that is prevalent for March/April in the Sierra. If you want, rent big ones for now, find out what they're all about, then purchase the right size for you and your load after.

       Terrain and shoes with teeth-

       Some of the terrain will be flat, steep, and traversing. The point of the journey is to teach you how best to handle all of it. Yes, there will be traverses on somewhat steep terrain and climbs straight up steeper stuff (keep in mind all of that is done with day packs out of our base camp) with snow shoes on. Yes, come with shoes that have teeth for the surface of the snow may be icy or at least so underneath whatever fluff is on top.

       Advise: When you purchase shoes, make sure the material that wraps over the frame is durable enough to last lots of ice scrapping across it. It has been a pain in the backcountry to repair these straps that hold the "decking" of the shoe between the frame.

       Crampons-

       You will not need them either on this trip or on your thru. We will talk extensively about this over the weekend.

       Maps-

       One of the most valuable aspects of this Course is to teach you how to read a topo map so well that you can "see" what's ahead before you get there. The point of this is many-fold: to be able to know where the trail goes even when buried under snow, to know what to expect ahead and what obstacles to avoid (like creek crossings), and to get to know the environment better (to name a few). The Harrison maps are excellent, but for this Course, not detailed enough. I want you to come with the actual USGS maps of the area. They easily show all the contour lines and details I want you to see and know well over the course of the weekend.

       Water and melting snow-

       We will be learning how to both safely find and retrieve water as well as melt snow in our tents. Snow melting needs to be started one spoonful at a time until you have enough water in your pot to take more snow added to it. I will explain more later. So, I bring two pots, one for hauling in the white stuff and the other for melting it. I bring more fuel than I need (double what you'd expect for summer use cooking two or three meals a day). For the sake of this learning experience, bring your bigger pots, even though on your thru you will not (you'll be winging-it then, but at least you'll know how).

       Clothing Systems and fabric durability-

       Plan on ambient temps. in the teens and wind chills into the five-below range. The weather can vary widely; we may have temps. in the 70s, too. A lot of conditions can be nasty, but being cold is one of the worst. Over dress. One of the lessons of this outing is to learn how to stay warm and dry even through exertion. To become wet, even with sweat, is not allowed, unless we have summer conditions (like what you may have on your thru). To be damp is to become cold; to be cold leads to bad decisions, physical compromise, hypothermia, and worse. We will talk about all this, how to recognize their symptoms, and how to prevent them out on the snow. For now, bring lots of clothes and back-up socks and gloves. The inner thermal layer is obviously important. Women, I suggest you bring Down clothing as it is the most efficient when not working and in your tents.

       The kind of bag you bring is your choice; plan for at least a five-below rating and have a thick pad or two. (The point of this trip is to find out what works for you-I don't want you to freeze in the process). Your outer shells should be durable and not of ultralight design. For the most part, the lightweight stuff will do when working, but not when falling and rolling around in the snow. Also, should we learn how to build snow caves as emergency shelters, you will be on your hands and knees all the time and getting wet from both contact and sweat. Make sure all your outer layers are waterproof/breathable, especially your boots, gaitors, and gloves. Mittens are preferred (those with removable liners work best for all conditions).

       In general, Ultra-light often leads to ultra-miserable. What you do not bring means you will have to compromise something out there; in winter or on snow conditions, you do not have the latitude unless you know you can stay warm, well fueled, and dry. I don't mean to scare any of you, but all it takes is one mistake, like falling into a spring (ask me later), and your condition becomes bad in a heartbeat. You will learn how to avoid such hazards and manage such situations on this trip. Yes, bring a 3-season tent with a full fly. Single-wall, Gore-Tex tents are ok, but they have to have plenty of vents to prevent condensation from getting you wet at night (they're lighter, but don't work so well for our purposes).

       Fitness-

       Run stairs to build those glutes and hams. Do push-ups to build the triceps (for poling) and sit-ups for the hip-flexors and quads. Do something to build an aerobic base. You will be at 7000 feet; you will get winded easily. It never hurts to bump up the training, but there is nothing that can get you into shape for long-distance hiking other than the hiking itself. Bring lots of electrolyte replacement additives!

       What else have I missed?

       Ned

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