[pct-l] Conversation: Hikers and Wildland Fires (very long)

[rellinwood at worldnet.att.net (Robert Ellinwood)]

L-Rod's posting of Mike Higgins' ("Pop Pop")  account of "A Fire Story" was
a reminder that I had to finish a project I had recently started.  I have
often wondered if there were principles to be followed if actually caught in
a fire area, other than simply run - hopefully in the right direction.  We
have all seen forest fires in the distance and adjusted appropriately,
usually with Forest Service guidance, but twice, on the PCT and the CDT, I
found that I had walked into a fire area for which I had no advance warning.
Might there be steps... any tested wisdom... which a professional fire
expert could suggest that would help a hiker analyze such a situation in a
hurry?  In the event that a hiker is caught in a fire - in extremis - what
are the safety things one could do... and shouldn't do?  A couple weeks ago,
I started a conversation about all this with Richard Miles, a fire expert
here in Virginia who is called to supervise fires all over the country, for
a sobering assessment of hikers and wildland fires.  He was expecting to be
called to the fires in Texas and Oklahoma and indeed left for those fires
the day after we talked.

Dr Bob:   First, let's establish your fire credentials.

RM:  I've been in fire work for 30 years now.  I've worked on fires where
backpackers have been killed, on fires where we've rescued backpackers, and
on fires where we've suddenly looked down from a helicopter and unexpectedly
discovered hikers in the fire area.  

3 years ago I retired as a Natural Resources Specialist from the Virginia
Department of Forestry.  Since then, I've worked with Bedford County Fire
and Rescue as a Wildland Coordinator for the county.  However, most
importantly for this conversation, for years I've been a single-resource
overhead Division Supervisor with the US Forest Service as a Structural
Protection Specialist, on an as-needed basis.  That's a national
qualification that I hold.  

Dr Bob:  What specific training was required?

RM:  Anyone working on fires under Federal guidelines has to meet certain
qualifications to do their job.  There is always a command structure in
place.  A large fire is usually divided into 2 divisions. The larger the
fire becomes the more divisions it has.  Each division has a Division
Supervisor - what I normally do - who manages everything within that
division, usually from geographical point here to geographical point there.
It could be a mile or it could be 20 miles. Anything in large wildland fire
fighting is very structured, from the Incident Commander to the "ground
pounders" - the firefighters on the line.  Each position, from firefighter
to the Incident Commander on top, has to meet certain criteria and go
through certain training at each level to move up to the next level.  NWCG,
National Wildfire Coordination Group, establishes and maintains those
qualifications.  Once you meet a certain level's qualifications you get a
red card.   Every year you must do a physical fitness pack test and take a
refresher course to maintain those qualifications.  You then enter a
national data base with your qualifications and if they need Task Force
Leaders, Strike Team Leaders, Division Supervisors, Operations people - each
position has its qualification requirements - to run a particular fire, they
order them up through that data base.  It doesn't matter if the fire is in
Virginia or California, the job and the qualifications are the same.

As far as getting those qualifications, the basic firefighter starts out
with a 40 hour course. You then move from firefighter to Squad Boss to Crew
Boss (or single-resource boss, as in, say, Dozer Boss) to Strike Team and
Task Force Leader then to Division Supervisor.

Dr Bob:  And that's your current level?

RM:  Yes.  Then it goes to Operations Section Chief, who answers to the
Incident Commander.  The Division Supervisor (3rd level down) is normally
the highest line supervisor in the field.

Dr Bob:  How long have you been qualified as a Division Supervisor?

RM:   About 10 years.  It takes a lot of years and a lot of classes to get
to that level.  Each level you go up, there's one, two or three classes
required.  For each step there is a task book and you go out as a trainee
under someone at that level, requiring usually several fires per task.  It
took me close to 18 years to work up to Division Supervisor. 

Dr Bob:  Especially with that apprentice approach, it seems a thorough
system.

RM:  It's a good system that works well and allows everybody to be on the
same page all the time, no matter who you work with. Usually you have Type 1
and Type 2 teams, nationally qualified teams that run large fires - Type 1
for the largest overhead team and Type 2 a little smaller, condensed
version.  No matter where in the country, when I show up I already know my
role, what my job is, and who my supervisor is. They give you an IAP,
Incident Action Plan, on every fire and it's updated every day.  On that IAP
is indicated all the resources that are assigned to that division so I can
know exactly who's working for me on that division, who I work for, and
everything falls in place very quickly.

Dr Bob:  Maybe this is digressing a bit, but for my own education elaborate
a bit on Type 1 vs Type 2.

RM:  To give you an example, if you have a fire that starts this afternoon,
the local resources respond first and look at the guidelines regarding the
complexity of the fire... how large, how it's spreading, what it's
threatening, etc.  If they see it's going to grow beyond their capabilities,
they would call either a Type 1 or a Type 2 overhead team.   They both have
the same function and job to do and are staffed from an Incident Commander
on down.   Type 1 simply has a larger team with more diverse personnel
required to meet a more complex situation.  Type 2 is basically doing the
same thing, but if it becomes a very large fire, with thousands of people,
lots of equipment and aircraft involved, it becomes beyond what a Type 2
team can manage and a totally different Type 1 team is brought in.  It's not
uncommon to see a large fire develop beyond a Type 2's capabilities.  Type 1
team would come in and the Type 2 team would move on to a fire somewhere
else.

Dr Bob:  Is it too simplistic therefore to label Type 1 and Type 2 just in
terms of the size or complexity of the fire?

RM:  It's more to do with the complexity than it is with size. You can have
a Type 1 team on a 1,000 acre fire or a Type 2 team on a 50,000 acre fire.
It doesn't always move from a Type 1 to a Type 2 fire.  Sometimes they know
right away that this is going to be a Type 1 fire at the outset.  Basically,
a Type 1 team has more overhead positions filled, so the fire is easier to
manage.  ICS, Incident Command System, which we work under, gives guidelines
as to how many people you supervise in any position.  With a max of 5, I
cannot have more than 5 Strike Team or Task Force Leaders working under me.
If I need 10, then we need to split and make a separate division. 

Dr Bob:  Does that 1 to 5 ratio go all the way down the line?

RM:  Yes, for example a Squad Boss will have 5 firefighters or "ground
pounders" under him, max.  

Dr Bob:  What are the "Hot Shots" I hear about?

RM:  Again, you have Type 1 and Type 2.  Everything is "Typed," whether it
be a crew, equipment, aircraft, bulldozers, or whatever.  In the Fire Line
Handbook, it tells what the make-up of each will be.  A Type 1 crew is a Hot
Shot Crew: smoke jumpers, rappelers, etc., and they stay together for the
entire season. They live together, sleep together, work together, train
together, and their communications system is set up for them. They are
generally much better prepared.  Self-contained units, they are put on the
hottest parts of the fire and their capability is greater than most.  You
can go to them and say we need to burn out from here to here and they know
exactly what you mean and can do it with a minimum of supervision.  Type 2
crews may be crews from different agencies or even from the same National
Forest that have never worked together before.

Dr Bob:  I remember reading of a Type 2 crew on a major fire that proved
difficult, wasn't following orders, and was asked to vacate the fire scene.

RM:  That happens occasionally. Because of the nature of the work, everyone
has to know what their job is and perform that job.  Safety is paramount.
If crews are not functioning well, have major personality problems, or not
doing what is requested, they'll be demobilized and sent home immediately.
First, a Human Resources person will see if they can handle it.  But,
everything is very structured on a fire and run like a military operation.

Dr Bob:  Well, all this certainly gives one confidence in your
"credentials."  But before you share any specific advice for hikers caught
in a fire zone, what can we say that frees you from any liability for advice
given, lest someone say that it backfired (!) on day X on trail X in fire X?

RM:  Fire is not an exact science.  No matter how much you know about fire
or how many fires you've seen, every one you go to is different.  While they
all react basically the same, they all have their own personalities and
they're going to do strange things.  So, it's impossible to tell people in a
black and white way what a fire is going to do.  Besides, even if you tell
people to "go right," some people are going to "go left."  

Dr Bob:  On the macro level, for a hiker seeing fire at a distance, what are
some of your recommendations?

RM:  To begin with, when planning your hike - any place in the country and
any time of year - contact the local authorities in that geographical area
and find out what the fire history is for that time of year.  Fire seasons
change in a yearly cycle.  For example, in western states the fire season
will start in the southern Rockies, NM, AZ, S CA in the very late spring or
early summer and it moves north as the summer progresses.  So, the northern
Rockies, OR and WA will have their fire season normally in late July, August
and into September.  All this happens annually, so if you know you are going
to be hiking in OR or WA in August, it is probably going to be fire season
and, while it doesn't mean you avoid going there, you definitely need to be
aware of that.  As the time comes to lift your backpack and start walking,
you need to be following the news media closely.  How high is the fire
danger?  Just because it's fire season doesn't necessarily mean they're
having a lot of fires.  However, some years the fire hazard is so high, you
probably shouldn't go.  Right now, for instance, Texas and Oklahoma are just
burning up everywhere.

Dr Bob:  But a hiker who wants to hike the PCT from Mexico to Canada just
has to take her/his chances, trying to stay aware as you hike along.
Getting back to avoidance on the macro level, other than running into a FS
official, seeing a posted sign on a tree, or seeing smoke in the distance,
is there any other way to know there's trouble up ahead.

RM: We use LCES (pronounced el-sees):  Lookouts, Communication, Escape
Routes, Safety Zones. We preach that constantly to firefighters.  That has
saved their butts!   If they're not doing those things, then they're in an
unsafe environment.  From a backpacker's standpoint, Lookouts may be a
difficult thing to do, but as you hike through, you're going to reach
certain ridgetops, peaks, visual vantage points.  Consciously look out there
for smoke.  Should I proceed farther if I see smoke? Should I wait a bit to
see what's going to happen ahead of me or behind me? 

Dr Bob: So, at that point you check the smoke in relation to the trail on
the larger area map you hopefully have with you and check which way the
prevailing wind is?

RM:  Weather becomes the key!  Wind, primarily. 

Dr Bob:  But if you're hiking north and the smoke is obviously to the east
of the trail by several miles - maybe 5, 10 miles - OK to go ahead?

RM:  Every fire would be different.  There are going to be 2 things that are
primarily going to affect the fire for the hiker:  weather and fuel.  What
are the fuels like between you and that fire?  Is it heavy dense overstory
with lots of fuel that is going to allow a fire to move rapidly if it does
come in your direction?  There can be unexpected shifts in wind direction.
Is the wind pushing away from you or towards you?  How sensitive are you to
a shift in wind direction?  Terrain:  are you above the fire or below the
fire?  Being below the fire is a much safer place to be than above it!  A
fire is going to travel 16 times faster upslope than it is down that same
slope.

Dr Bob:  16 times faster uphill?  I had no idea the difference was THAT
great.   Getting back to wind, if you're upwind of the fire and it's to the
east of you, aren't the chances of it moving, other than very slowly, back
toward you pretty slim?

RM:    Without having a lot of fire knowledge, it's hard for a person to
stand out there and say which direction the fire's going to go and how fast
is it going to move. To talk about a fire 2, 3, 5 miles away sounds like a
large distance, but a fire under the right conditions could cover that
distance in a relatively short time - a couple hours... much faster than
you're going to be able to move.  It's not going to do it against the wind,
but the wind can and does shift and intensify.  Extremely large fires will
be plume-dominated.  If you see a fire in the distance and that smoke column
looks like an atomic bomb went off, mushrooming out, that fire creates its
own weather system.  Those are the ones that you certainly want to avoid at
all costs.  Once it looks like that - plume-dominated - it can go anywhere
it wants to go at a pretty rapid pace. 

Dr Bob:  In other words, regardless of where it is in relation to you?

RM:  Right.  If it's plume-dominated, we pull all firefighters away.  Again,
plume-dominated is an upward column of smoke spreading out in all
directions, as opposed to all the smoke blowing in one direction. With the
latter, the weather - the wind - is controlling the event and unless you
have a major weather change, the fire is going in that direction.  A
plume-dominated fire will do what it wants to do.

Dr Bob:  In a non-plume-dominated fire, we can proceed cautiously?  Here, I
guess, we might also begin to think on the micro level, in the event we
really do get caught.

RM:  Go back to your LCES.  At your Lookouts, you're judging what the fire's
doing, where and how fast it's going to spread, if you see it out there.
Communications:  Do you have a cell phone capability to call into the local
Ranger Office and give them your location?  GPS's are great for that.  Do
you have their phone number in your list of numbers with you?  Constantly be
checking where you have phone coverage and make a dot on the map where you
do.   Is it safe to proceed...should I hold here or go back? Talk to other
backpackers headed the other way.  Is there a huge, green wet meadow up
ahead that wouldn't burn?  Escape Routes:  that's an ongoing thing, as are
the Safety Zones.  As you're backpacking through an area that has potential
for fire, you should always be looking for Escape Routes.  Do I go back the
same way I came in? Is there another trail that leads away from the fire, on
the opposite side of the ridge from this fire? You never want to be in the
position of being in mid-slope with the fire below you and you have to run
upslope. That's the killer.  Be thinking (theoretically here) about this
road tying in with that other road which goes back down to that big
meadow...might that be a good escape route, as an example.     

Dr Bob:  In a way, a backpacker does that all the time in the back of the
mind, in case of injury, generally.  Would you consider cross-country as an
escape route?

RM:  Potentially... depending on the slope and the fuels that are there.  If
there are a lot of rock surfaces on a slope and very sparse, sporadic fuels,
then that could be either an Escape Route or a Safety Zone.  As you're
hiking along, where could I go that I could safely sit and wait if this fire
does suddenly come over top of us?  That's your Safety Zone.  It's got to be
pretty big.  It can't be just a little rock outcrop somewhere with lots of
fuel all the way around it, because you're not going to survive the fire. 

Dr Bob:  What sort of minimum Safety Zone are you thinking of?

RM: The more fuel you have around you, the larger the Safety Zone has to be.
In an area of heavy fuel, you're looking for something the size of a couple
football fields or larger... the larger the better.  Get in the middle of
it.     

Dr Bob:  That's the SIZE of a Safety Zone.  Sitting here as a layman, the
only thing that appeals to me if there were a fire around me would be lots
of ROCK.

RM:  That's what you're looking for, but in a lot of the western areas you
have very large meadows... damp green meadows that won't burn.  Many times
you'll see that those areas are still green after the fire goes around them.
You'll also see areas that are quite void of vegetation, with sparse
overstory and no thick compressed canopy of trees - 2 or 3 scattered trees
per acre and not capable of carrying a crown fire (in the treetops).  But if
the trees are close together and capable of carrying a crown fire, then the
fire can overrun you quickly.  You really need to know what to look for and
be looking for it on a constant basis, even before you smell or see smoke.
The next bend you go around may have the fire facing you.  Oh my gosh, how
far back was that last Safety Zone?  200 yards or 2 miles?

Dr Bob:  What you're doing is adding an overlay to normal backpacker
thinking that is not normally touched on in all the hiking literature.
Escape routes in case of injury, yes.  But thinking of Safety Zones in case
of forest fire on a nice day when you don't smell smoke is, I believe, not
done by most hikers. You're saying we need to add this layer, as we hike
along.  Are you justifying that, in a sense, because the numbers of forest
fires in recent years seem to be increasing?

RM:  No, historically, if you look back, we are probably not having the
numbers of fires we used to have. 

Dr Bob:  (Surprised)  When?

RM;  Before we even knew there was a West.  Lightning has always been there
and burned.  Smokey the Bear, while being a great fire prevention tool, has
probably over-prevented.
We have over-suppressed, to the point of a lot of fuel load buildup in areas
where natural fires would have kept that from building up. There's a school
of thought that says we ought to let things burn more to reduce those fuels
and then there are others who now have homes out there and communities and
ranches and who say, no, we don't want that fire to burn around here... put
it out.  There's a big learning curve going on to assess what we can and
can't do to reduce those fuels.  Light fuel loads don't burn with a lot of
intensity.  It just burns out the understory and goes on about its business.
As you allow fuel loads to build up - the amount of available fuel for a
fire to burn - heavy fuel loads, on the other hand, cause very catastrophic
fires, where you start to get intense crown fires, etc.    Fire researchers
feel that, while the numbers of fires aren't as bad as they used to be, the
intensity of the fires that we do have and the size of them are much
larger... because of the fuel loads.  From a backpacker's standpoint, a fire
100 to 200 years ago you could almost walk through, step over, find the gaps
in, or walk around.  Lewis and Clark were constantly seeing smoke and fire
all the time during the summer in the Pacific Northwest, as they were
traveling.  Fire was not an issue then because they could avoid it and walk
around it.  Now we have major fires, as far as the intensity, and you can't
get around them or through them anymore.  

 Dr Bob:  I mentioned to you that twice I've suddenly been confronted with a
forest fire quite close by.   How can you help hikers with their thinking
and quick actions in such a situation?

RM:  You need to start looking at location.  Where am I located?  You may
not know what's ahead, but you know where you've been... what's behind you.
What's around me in terms of fuel?  If you're in a thick canopy of fir, but
a quarter mile back there was a Safety Zone, get there. Where am I located
in the topography in relation to the fire?  Can I see the fire?  If I can
see the fire and I'm in mid-slope on this ridge and the fire's below me, I'm
in the worst case scenario.  If you smell smoke but can't see the fire,
which direction is the wind coming from... to make that smoke come to me?
Maybe there is a little ridge up here 100 yards away with a rock
outcropping... can I get up there to spot the fire?

Dr Bob:  So, even when faintly smelling smoke, do your darndest to get to a
Lookout where you can see?

RM:  Right.  Get on a high ridge and see where that smoke is.  You will
learn which direction you need to exit, for your Escape Route.  Don't just
assume the smoke doesn't relate to you.  Time is of the essence.  Just avoid
a fire below you at all cost, because those are the ones that are going to
catch you.  I can't state that enough.  They're the ones that are going to
make quick runs at you and get you.  Even the Hot Shot Type 1 firefighters -
smoke jumpers - that have been killed (Storm King Mountain, Mann Gulch) were
overrun by fires below them and, despite being in superb shape, couldn't run
to the top quick enough.  People think, well, I'm a backpacker in good shape
and I can run... well, those firefighters were like world-class athletes.
The average backpacker is not going to do any better.

Dr Bob:  If a backpacker could just get to the top of a ridge and then go
down the other side...?

RM: That's the safest thing to do. Even though the wind is blowing in the
same direction, it's definitely going to burn more slowly going downhill.
But, obviously, if you're on an 8,000 ft mountain and you're at the 4,000 ft
level, you have to be thinking sideways, not up.

Dr Bob:  So, in trying to best analyze a situation in a hurry...wind
direction, fuel, and slope?

RM:  Right.  Those are the main three, although there are other complex fire
behavior factors.

Dr Bob:  Is it a GIVEN that when you smell smoke you really have to ACT in
some way, as opposed to cautiously carrying on as normal?

RM:  I think that anytime you smell smoke a red flag should pop up and you
should start to think about all we've discussed.  Also, if you're hiking in
fire season, when you change jurisdictions - National Forests, National
Parks - it's prudent to let them know where you're located or what trail
you're on.  If you tell folks where you are and they know you're out there,
when there's a fire they ARE going to come look for you and get you out.

Dr Bob:  I've notified the FS when caught in a particularly heavy snow storm
and I've gotten out, so no one would come looking for me, but it hasn't
occurred to me in fire season to, pro forma, let them know I was in their
forest on a particular trail.  You think that's a wise idea?

RM:  I do.  When we've known people were in a given area, we've sent out
crews or helicopters just to find them.  It's nice to hear, "We've got 'em.
We're on our way out with them right now."

Dr Bob:  Is the thickness or intensity of the smoke that you're experiencing
necessarily related to the proximity or nearness of the fire?

RM:  Not necessarily. The smoke itself could be curling over somewhere from
several miles away and just settling in where you are.  Or, you could have a
fire almost right beside you and not have ANY smoke, because the smoke is
being lifted and carried somewhere else.  The wind and air inversion layers
will dictate where the smoke is going to go at that particular time... and
that changes during the day.  You can have an inversion layer in the morning
that's holding the smoke down low.  There are a lot of variables with that.
We've had smoke here in this area of VA, with everyone and his brother
calling the dispatcher, and the actual fire was in West Virginia!  It was a
massive fire, but the smoke was settling in this area.

Dr Bob:  But knowing that could make one tend to discount smoke...
foolishly.

RM:  At the same time, the reverse is also true. The people in West Virginia
might not smell smoke.  As the day progresses, the weather changes and both
the smoke and the fire do different things.  The peak burning conditions of
a fire are between 11 or 12 o'clock up to about 4 or 5 o'clock, as the most
intense burning time of the day.  Later in the evening the fire is going to
calm down some, as the humidity increases and the winds decrease.  

Dr Bob:  If the hiker is confronted with a fire suddenly and lookouts, fuel,
and slope have been checked, I suppose it's impossible for you to recommend
a preference, based on statistics, for sitting tight in a very large Safety
Zone versus looking at a map, choosing an Escape Route, and deciding to get
going? 

RM:  Possibly a combination.  There's no way to sit here and say you should
do this or that.  Can I safely survive a fire from where I'm located?  If I
cannot, now I HAVE to move.  From talking to other hikers, is there a safer
area ahead of me?  Do I recall noting a zone behind me?  Can I outrun the
fire? 

Dr Bob:  On the PCT, we have wonderful, but narrow strip maps in the
guidebook.  Would it not be prudent to have a large overview map with us,
just for escape purposes?

RM:  Certainly it's going to help in the event you have to do an escape.
Unless you've been there before, you probably don't know what's out there or
up ahead.  Also, do remember that old burn areas are great places to be.
"We fight fire with one foot in the black," is a phrase we use.  You can use
the black as your Safety Zone.  

Dr Bob:  In our talking about Safety Zones, I've gotten the impression we
are trying to avoid death by flame.  I had also heard that big fires suck up
all the oxygen and you could die by asphyxiation, supposedly even in a
Safety Zone.

RM:  If your Safety Zone is large enough, that should take care of that.  My
concern would not be lack of air, but fire burning me.  But if the heat
becomes so intense around you that you're breathing in super-heated air,
that's going to kill you.  The only thing you can do is get to a large
enough Safety Zone.

Dr Bob:  Would breathing through a wet bandana help?

RM:  No.  Do NOT use a wet bandana.  That's a no-no.   The moisture in that
becomes just like a steam burn.  You want to maintain a dry cloth.  In those
old movies where you see folks dip their bandanas or their clothes in
water... that's the worst thing you can do.  The steam is actually worse
than the heat.  You want to avoid that scalding effect.

Dr Bob:  Does breathing though a dry bandana really help with the smoke?

RM:  Sure, all firefighters use bandanas.  

Dr Bob:  Lacking a large Safety Zone, is it ever advisable to submerge
yourself in a stream?

RM:  Potentially.  People have gotten into water and survived, but others
have gotten in water and not survived, because there was still so much heat
on the surface of the water they succumbed to the fire.  The water didn't
get too hot... it was the super-heated air that killed them.  Getting
yourself out to the middle of a large pond would be better.  Get as far from
the heat as you can, be it a pond or a Safety Zone.  The same day as the
Great Chicago Fire, there was an under-reported forest fire in the north
woods that killed more people than in the Chicago fire.  Tens of thousands
of acres went up in one afternoon. A lot of the people there died in lakes
and ponds, thinking the water would save them.  But they still had to
breathe and the super-heated air killed them. If I were in that situation
with no place else to go, I would certainly try, but I'd want to get to some
place safer if I could.  On land, standing up is worse than lying down. The
closer you get to the ground the more available cooler clean air you're
going to have.

Dr Bob:  I know that firefighters have both lived and died under those heavy
foil blankets - fire tents - they've thrown over themselves when caught by
the fire.  Would those thin mylar survival blankets weighing 3 oz that some
of us carry help in an emergency fire situation?

RM:  That would afford very limited protection.  But try anything!  You
would want to discard most things, not water containers, but anything nylon,
whether you're under that or a rock outcropping.  While your pack could
shield you from heat, if it catches on fire from the heat then you have that
burning nylon to contend with.

Dr Bob:  Geez, practically all our hiking clothing is nylon, in one form or
other.  

RM:  What we recommend to firefighters is to get in that fire tent with just
their fire clothing on and not take their gear in there with them.  Their
clothing is Nomax, a fire-retardant material, and if not that, we recommend
cotton over synthetic.  I know current backpacking trends favor the
synthetic.

Dr Bob:  So, super-heated air will do us in before actual burning or smoke
inhalation?

RM:  Correct.  The smoke itself, while it will irritate you, will not kill
you.  Super-heated air will. 

Dr Bob:  Is there a point at which you recommend dropping your pack and just
sprinting?

RM:  We suggest that if it's a true "escape run," your pack is dropped
immediately, except for your water and your cell phone.  That stuff will
just slow you down.  Firefighters have died trying to carry their gear, like
chainsaws.  It's somewhat like being in the military and not wanting to drop
your rifle. You'll see where they ran but so far and then they finally
dropped it.  Usually they dropped it just before the fire hit them.  But
others made it across the top of the ridge because they didn't carry
anything. 
                  
Dr Bob:  Might there ever be a situation where a hiker would say:  I'm going
to run directly INTO the fire, rather than FROM the fire?  To get to the
black?

RM:  It would have to be a fairly narrow fire lane, possibly with gaps in
fuel.  And a surface - not a crown - fire.   In a crown fire, the black is
way behind the front of the actual fire and you're never going to make it,
due to the intensity and the heat.   

Dr Bob:   Key to many of your answers has been the topic of fuel.  While
crown fires can be terrible, aren't certain low-lying fuels, like manzanita
bushes in S CA with their oil content, absolutely terrifying?

RM:  They are.  They just explode when they burn and that's why they have
such intense fires out there.  Right now in Texas and Oklahoma, it's short
pasture grass and it's burning extremely intensely, to the point of burning
homes.  It moves so fast when it burns it's almost impossible to manage.

Dr Bob:  Under what circumstances could the wind direction be MISLEADING in
a fire?

RM:  While the wind is a strong factor in the spread of a fire, the
topography and fuels can make a big difference.  You can have a wind
pushing, say, from the NW but the fire has jumped and is on the other side
of that ridge not being affected by that wind.  If it has enough fuel, it
could be burning upslope in the direction the wind is coming from. 

Dr Bob: So there's a chance you could "escape" up to the ridge and discover
it's already burning on the other side of the ridge.  Then there's nothing
you can do.

RM:  No.   Just run sideways along the ridge as best you can.

Dr Bob:  If you're hiking along and embers appear to be in the smoke, what
does that mean necessarily?

RM:  Embers are obviously a red flag.  If you can't see a fire and you're
getting embers, you've got a very intense fire somewhere and you're going to
have "spot fires."  That's when you can become trapped between the main fire
and the spot fires, which is not uncommon in large fire situations.
Generally you don't get that at night or in the morning, but you will in the
afternoon.

Dr Bob:  Realistically, is it possible for a backpacker to find her/himself
in a situation like that?

RM:  Probably not, but it's not impossible, either.  You'll usually have
some advance warning seeing it, smelling it, or hearing it.  But it is
possible.  All big fires start as small fires.  If you're hiking along and
you run across a fire an acre or two in size - more than you can put out and
you can't contact authorities to let them know - you need to start thinking,
OK, where's this fire going to go?  It's small now, maybe from a lightning
strike the night before - very common - but you immediately think those 3
key things:  Slope...Wind direction... Fuel!

Dr Bob:  Any words for hikers about things THEY do that start fires?

RM:  Backpackers as a general rule are usually careful with fires, be it
with a stove or a wood fire.  What we have found in the past is that people
have thought they put out a fire and they weren't.  Don't have a fire when
there's the combination of wind and dry fuel around or there's not adequate
water handy to put it out.  Between water applications, stir it up.  Where
people make mistakes is that they think it's out, but it's embedded deep in
the ground.  Stir, pour water, dig around, make sure the ground is not hot.

Dr Bob:  Most backpackers don't take it that far.  I have many times come
upon campfires that were still going, with no one around.  

RM:  Sometimes hikers can cause a problem far from the fire.  They notice
helicopter activity, out of curiosity gather over there, and unwittingly
cause unsafe conditions for the firefighters, because we now have to deal
with the hikers as well as the fire.  I've been at a fire where the
helicopter activity at a lake had to be shut down for a critical hour
because hikers moved in to watch, created a safety hazard, and ground crews
had to come in to move them back.  During that hour we had 40 firefighters
in a critical situation without air support because of the action of the
backpackers on the other side of the mountain from where the fire was.  It
doesn't necessarily have to be the fire itself that causes danger but some
of the actions that people take.

However, what I've tried to stress here is how to think if you are actually
caught in a fire.  In 2002, I worked the "Biscuit Fire" in N CA and southern
OR, which burned about a half million acres.  There was a backpacker in
there who had just gotten home on leave from the military and taken off
backpacking.  They never did find him.  He never made it out.

Dr Bob:  Well, this has been very helpful.  I may suddenly need this
information someday.  Thanks very much for sharing your expertise!