[pct-l] Mt Whitney

[jeoverton at sbcglobal.net (Jane E Overton)]

There have been many helpful responses to my questions.  Thank you very much.  I am still studying out the trip.  Thats part of the fun, after all.  I have heard that boots with a steel shank are the only way to go since the trail on Mr. Whitney is all rock.  Have also read in "Beyond Backpacking," that lightweight is better,  Any comments?
Jane

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Today's Topics:

1. Sign at Joshua Springs (Lonetrail@aol.com)
2. Re: Sign at Joshua Springs (JD Schaefer)
3. Re: Mt. Whitney (Richard)
4. Apache Springs Camp site (maurer@earthlink.net)
5. Re: SNOW CREEK (Carl Siechert)
6. Apache Springs Camp site (Bill Irey)
7. Re: SNOW CREEK (matt maxon)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2003 20:20:33 EDT
From: Lonetrail@aol.com
Subject: [pct-l] Sign at Joshua Springs
To: pct-l@mailman.backcountry.net
Message-ID: <11c.22e2b1ff.2c0d43d1@aol.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"

JD

Well, JD sorry it took me so long to answer your comments about my post on 
Joshua Springs. I had to do some research.

First let me explain why I am concerns about the sign posted by BLM at Joshua 
Springs which reads "WATER NOT SAFE FOR DRINKING"

My son and I were backpacking from Walker Pass to Whitney. The temperature 
was 115 degrees. We arranged to meet at 12 noon to have lunch together. He is 
much younger then I and usually several miles ahead. At lunch he was nearly out 
of water. We arranged to meet again at Joshua Springs four miles ahead. When I 
arrived at Joshua Springs he left a note after he read the sign saying "WATER 
IS UNSAFE FOR DRINKING" The note read, "Dad water unsafe for drinking will go 
to next water hole about 15 miles ahead." Remember temperature is 115 
degrees. I knew I would find him straddled across the trail. I walked the 1/4 mile 
down to spring and filled up two quarts of water. I found my son four miles from 
Joshua Springs as I suspected collapsed across the trail. His first words 
were "Dad I'm dying." I was able to give him (The unsafe water) which saved his 
life. We double back to Joshua Springs and spend the might there, loader 
ourselves up with the "Unsafe Water" 
In your statement you wrote ."Let's keep this to the Trail and leave our 
resentments out of it" I believe I am right on the trail. If you want to call it 
resentment find. I am trying to save some backpacker's life. Several other 
backpackers has also passed the springs after reading the Illegal sign and had 
similar problems.

Now after some research I can now back up my claim that the sign should not 
be there. It is illegal and should be taken down. I wrote to BLM and got this 
response. Please read the email from BLM.

Email from BLM

The sign should say that the water is not tested for safe drinking which
would require testing at least quarterly for various substances and we are
not currently set up for such testing. (A variety of Federal and State
regulations apply related to water.) Also, the springs at Chimney Creek
Campground and Joshua Tree Spring may not be safe for drinking because they
exceed maximum contaminant levels (MCL) for naturally occurring URANIUM.
The MCL for uranium is 20 picocuries per liter (pCi/l) and the water for
Chimney Creek usually tests at about 50 pCi/l. Joshua Tree Spring is
usually just above the MCL for uranium. Therefore, the water is not
recommended for drinking or food preparation. On the other hand, hikers on
the PCT are often in desperate need of water and these two sources present
a minimum hazard for casual use since PCT hikers treat or filter their own
water. (Understand, of course, that filtering or treating removes most
contaminants, but not uranium.) Let me know if you need additional
information: Michael Ayers, 661-391-6120. 
Michael Ayers/CASO/CA/BLM/DOI@BLM 


My email to BLM

I am trying to get information on why at Joshua Tree Springs located at
mile marker 569.3 along the Pacific Crest Trail located north of Walker Pass 
has
a sign water is unsafe for drinking. The same with Chimney Creek Camp Ground. 
I
understand that Indians, early Settler and Outfitters used the water for
hundreds of years.

Email from JD

Lonetrail

If you make political and/or snide comments "[Thanks to Erin Brokovich 
thedeep pocket environmentalist.)", you should back it up with facts or many of 
your future statements could have less of a positive impact.Let's keep this to 
the Trail and leave our resentments out of it.
JD-----

Original email to Richard

Richard>> If you are speaking about Grizzly Bill the caretaker at Chimney 
Creek take> anything he says with a grain of salt. I have stopped there several 
times and> find Grizzly Bill to be a typical back country character, sometime 
funny. sometime bullish He spends a lot of time alone and set in his ways but 
has a kind heart and will go out of his way to help you. Talk about his 
pickup or his dogs. Buy some cold pop from him since the water is supposed to be 
poison. (Thanks to Erin Brokovich the deep pocket environmentalist.) He loves 
the Internet and is most likely reading these posts. So Hi Bill.
lonetrail


------------------------------

Message: 2
Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2003 17:41:04 -0700
From: "JD Schaefer" 
Subject: Re: [pct-l] Sign at Joshua Springs
To: , 

Message-ID: <0afa01c32968$d0cc66a0$6501a8c0@attbi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

A harrowing tale to be sure. Your son sounds like mine, a faster hiker but
caring enough to leave a note. I'm glad it all worked out.

While I don't doubt the truthfulness of the sources you cite, I'm confused
what the incorrectly worded sign from a Federal agency (BLM) had to do with
Erin Brockovich or any other "deep pocket environmentalist".

Best wishes,
JD


----- Original Message ----- 
From: 
To: 

Sent: Monday, June 02, 2003 5:20 PM
Subject: [pct-l] Sign at Joshua Springs


> JD
>
> Well, JD sorry it took me so long to answer your comments about my post on
> Joshua Springs. I had to do some research.
>
> First let me explain why I am concerns about the sign posted by BLM at
Joshua
> Springs which reads "WATER NOT SAFE FOR DRINKING"
>
> My son and I were backpacking from Walker Pass to Whitney. The temperature
> was 115 degrees. We arranged to meet at 12 noon to have lunch together. He
is
> much younger then I and usually several miles ahead. At lunch he was
nearly out
> of water. We arranged to meet again at Joshua Springs four miles ahead.
When I
> arrived at Joshua Springs he left a note after he read the sign saying
"WATER
> IS UNSAFE FOR DRINKING" The note read, "Dad water unsafe for drinking will
go
> to next water hole about 15 miles ahead." Remember temperature is 115
> degrees. I knew I would find him straddled across the trail. I walked the
1/4 mile
> down to spring and filled up two quarts of water. I found my son four
miles from
> Joshua Springs as I suspected collapsed across the trail. His first words
> were "Dad I'm dying." I was able to give him (The unsafe water) which
saved his
> life. We double back to Joshua Springs and spend the might there, loader
> ourselves up with the "Unsafe Water"
> In your statement you wrote ."Let's keep this to the Trail and leave our
> resentments out of it" I believe I am right on the trail. If you want to
call it
> resentment find. I am trying to save some backpacker's life. Several other
> backpackers has also passed the springs after reading the Illegal sign and
had
> similar problems.
>
> Now after some research I can now back up my claim that the sign should
not
> be there. It is illegal and should be taken down. I wrote to BLM and got
this
> response. Please read the email from BLM.
>
> Email from BLM
>
> The sign should say that the water is not tested for safe drinking which
> would require testing at least quarterly for various substances and we are
> not currently set up for such testing. (A variety of Federal and State
> regulations apply related to water.) Also, the springs at Chimney Creek
> Campground and Joshua Tree Spring may not be safe for drinking because
they
> exceed maximum contaminant levels (MCL) for naturally occurring URANIUM.
> The MCL for uranium is 20 picocuries per liter (pCi/l) and the water for
> Chimney Creek usually tests at about 50 pCi/l. Joshua Tree Spring is
> usually just above the MCL for uranium. Therefore, the water is not
> recommended for drinking or food preparation. On the other hand, hikers on
> the PCT are often in desperate need of water and these two sources present
> a minimum hazard for casual use since PCT hikers treat or filter their own
> water. (Understand, of course, that filtering or treating removes most
> contaminants, but not uranium.) Let me know if you need additional
> information: Michael Ayers, 661-391-6120.
> Michael Ayers/CASO/CA/BLM/DOI@BLM
>
>
> My email to BLM
>
> I am trying to get information on why at Joshua Tree Springs located at
> mile marker 569.3 along the Pacific Crest Trail located north of Walker
Pass
> has
> a sign water is unsafe for drinking. The same with Chimney Creek Camp
Ground.
> I
> understand that Indians, early Settler and Outfitters used the water for
> hundreds of years.
>
> Email from JD
>
> Lonetrail
>
> If you make political and/or snide comments "[Thanks to Erin Brokovich
> thedeep pocket environmentalist.)", you should back it up with facts or
many of
> your future statements could have less of a positive impact.Let's keep
this to
> the Trail and leave our resentments out of it.
> JD-----
>
> Original email to Richard
>
> Richard>> If you are speaking about Grizzly Bill the caretaker at
Chimney
> Creek take> anything he says with a grain of salt. I have stopped there
several
> times and> find Grizzly Bill to be a typical back country character,
sometime
> funny. sometime bullish He spends a lot of time alone and set in his ways
but
> has a kind heart and will go out of his way to help you. Talk about his
> pickup or his dogs. Buy some cold pop from him since the water is supposed
to be
> poison. (Thanks to Erin Brokovich the deep pocket environmentalist.) He
loves
> the Internet and is most likely reading these posts. So Hi Bill.
> lonetrail
>
> _______________________________________________
> pct-l mailing list
> pct-l@mailman.backcountry.net
> http://mailman.hack.net/mailman/listinfo/pct-l
>



------------------------------

Message: 3
Date: Mon, 02 Jun 2003 18:07:17 -0700
From: Richard 
Subject: Re: [pct-l] Mt. Whitney
To: Christine Kudija , "Jane E Overton"
, 

Message-ID: <2.2.32.20030603010717.00bd8a80@postal.infolane.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

You most likely will acclimate quite quickly to "altitudes above, say,
9,000' "..
and since you are not going to have an extended stay above 10,000
feet there is naught to worry about for 99% of the people who go
there...any symptoms of high altitude sickness (which you should
read up on FYI) will not occur, typically, in the few hours you
are at alttitude. Appetite changes usually take 4-5 days AT ALTITUDE to occur
and you will be totally hungary for the mere day you are there...

Please do not be fearful of the negative implicaitons of those 
comments as they truely don't pertain to someone hiking to the 
top of Whitney and going back down in a few hours or so...most sicknesses
need several days for most people to occur (at altitude above 10,000-
12,000) feet and at most if you stay overnight @ the high camp (about 12,000)
feet you will feel short of breath, a little nausa perhaps but that
is about it... I have spent entire summers above 10,000 and after a
few days most people acclimate very easily. For 4 days just take what
you like to eat, is easy to prepare as per my other post, and is not too
heavy. But,additionally, most of your weight will be carried to trail
camp and u leave your tent and heavy bag there.

Most people fare well..if you feel a lot of gurgling in your chest or
extreme lightheaded,severe headachey, drink several liters of water..at
leaast 2,
and wait 20-30 minutes. Maybe take 2-3 aspirin. If those 
symptoms worsen head down to lower altitude
just about immediately...the symptoms will magically dissapear around
8000-9000 feet in an hour. U can then rest there for a day and try again,
stopping
for half a day at 10,500 and proceed leisurely up to 12000 and camp; then the
summit the next day.

As far as winds and delta temps, dont worry...during Aug it is very 
very much late spring/ early summer above 9000', in 25 years of hanging 
around Whitney area it does not fluctuate that much in Aug...but be prepared
for 40's F.
You have more to worry about with the bears at the Portal than alititude
loss of appetite, or wind or whatever!

Check out my web site for a great pic (IMHO) http://www.infolane.com/calliger

If you want to discuss it more, I am considered somewhat of an expert after
several months of mountaineering schools and 25+ years of accident/event free
mountaineering of quite a few peaks (although I did fracture my foot in my
driveway at home!!)
in the ice..but that don't count!!... please write me off-line.


Richard

Ps-

There are bold mountaineers, and there are old mountaineers.

There are few,if any, old, bold mountaineers.

PPS-

An expert is defined as one who knows his and others limitations
and usually exceeds them-- cautiously!1 ...





At 10:02 AM 6/2/03 -0700, Christine Kudija wrote:
>Jane,
>
>A couple of questions for you: (1) are you accustomed to altitudes above,
>say, 9,000'/~3000m? Appetite changes at elevation, especially if going to
>high elevations is not something you usually do. (2) are you accustomed
>to an alpine environment, where temperatures and winds can fluctuate
>substantially, depending on where you are on the mountain?
>
>I'll have some suggestions after you reply....also, are you asking only
>about food, or about gear as well?
>
>Christine "Ceanothus" Kudija
>
>"Never measure the height of a mountain, until you have reached the top.
>Then you will see how low it was." Dag Hammarskjold
>
>----- Original Message ----- 
>From: "Jane E Overton" 
>To: 

>Sent: Sunday, June 01, 2003 11:52 AM
>Subject: [pct-l] Mt. Whitney
>
>
>| I am climbing Mt. Whitney in August (permit in hand). I have a number of
>books, but not one has a sensible list of supples for the climb. Does
>anyone have a link, where I could hust get the grocery list fot a four day
>hike. I am not a picky eater.
>| _______________________________________________
>| pct-l mailing list
>| pct-l@mailman.backcountry.net
>| http://mailman.hack.net/mailman/listinfo/pct-l
>
>_______________________________________________
>pct-l mailing list
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>
>


------------------------------

Message: 4
Date: Mon, 02 Jun 2003 19:37:08 -0700
From: maurer@earthlink.net
Subject: [pct-l] Apache Springs Camp site
To: "pct-l@mailman.backcountry.net" 

Message-ID: <3EDC09D4.C0A88FF5@earthlink.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Hi all,

I'm taking off this Thursday north from Hwy 74, and have heard or read
from a couple of sources that apparently there is a small place to camp
somewhere down the side trail towards Apache Springs. There's even a
picture in "Along the PCT" by Karen Berger with the caption "view of
Palm Springs from Apache Springs Camp".

Any hard data on this? If the camp exists and if there's any water
running it would make a mighty sweet first night's resting place. As it
stands I'm planning to take the side trip to Cedar Springs (on purpose -
I'd like to have a look), tank up with 5+liters and dry camp around
Fobes/Apache someplace. Any new data about this possible camp spot or
Apache water flow would be appreciated

--
Mike Maurer



------------------------------

Message: 5
Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2003 21:11:26 -0700
From: "Carl Siechert" 
Subject: Re: [pct-l] SNOW CREEK
To: 

Message-ID: 
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

When we hiked in '77, the temporary route followed roads that were even
longer than the proposed trail. We looked at the topos, trying to decide
between the temporary route and attempting to follow the partially built
permanent route. Being the smart fellows that we were, we opted instead to
take a more direct route: straight down. With the exception of a couple of
dropoffs that we had to skirt around, it is possible. But I don't recommend
it!


> Fuller Ridge to Snow Creek 17.2 miles should have been 13 miles!
> WHAT'S UP with this trail ? got dizzy walking round and around
> and..........

------------------------------

Message: 6
Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2003 21:11:42 -0700
From: "Bill Irey" 
Subject: [pct-l] Apache Springs Camp site
To: "PCT-L Forum" 

Message-ID: <000601c32986$3e44f950$5ccb4b43@Bill>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252"

Mike,

Last year I got water at Apache Springs. There was room for a few hikers there. The water is to the NW about 20-30 yards. There is a plank of wood which retains the water causing a small pool behind it. I believe there was a recent water report that said there was a trickle of water there. This "should" be enough to get what you need...maybe. The camp sites were not great by any means but would do for a night. It is a steep decent to the springs from the PCT.

Geezer Bill

------------------------------

Message: 7
Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2003 07:57:04 -0700
From: "matt maxon" 
Subject: [pct-l] Re: SNOW CREEK
To: 

Message-ID: <001201c329e0$669108e0$6501a8c0@putterburbank>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

Don
There are many reasons for the long grade, 1st off the "standard" for trail
construction is a 5% grade with short portions not to exceed 15%, the
original 8 miles was about 17.75% way too steep even for a permitted "steep"
portion, 13 miles would be 10.93% quite steep for 13 miles, the current 17.2
miles is 8.26% which I think is a good compromise between excessive
steepness and length, the 5% would make this Segment 28.09090909 miles long.

The reason for these standards are safety, maintenance, and environmental.
For the trail to be suitable for ALL intended users IE: hikers and
equestrians, 13 miles of 11% grade, and would lead to lots of erosion.
Erosion is a major problem with steep trails and has serious enviromental,
safety, and maintenance issues associated with it.

I agree lots of switchbacks can be tiresome, but having worked on laying out
a few trails over the years, I can only say it's difficult to know the
undoubtably good reasons this segment is the way it is, my guess is,
Enviroment, Time & Money.

Perhaps it would help if we all where to contact our representatives in
government and urge them to support increased funding for this important
enviromental, social, physical, & mental health resource we are blessed
with!

Matt Maxon

> From: "Don Line" 
> Subject: [pct-l] SNOW CREEK
> To: 

> Message-ID: 
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
>
> Fuller Ridge to Snow Creek 17.2 miles should have been 13 miles!
> WHAT'S UP with this trail ? got dizzy walking round and around
> and..........
>
> ------------------------------



------------------------------

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