[pct-l] Re: Bears in general, (not canisters):)

[jandsjacobson99@xxxxxxx (Samuel Jacobson)]

I have never posted on this list, however, I really have a question and I
would like to hear about people's experiences and advice.  I am going to be
hiking the trail from the Northern California border to the border of
Canada.  I know that the Sierras has been a hot topic on this list and I
know that there are bears all over that section of the trail.  My question
is about my section.  You see, I am paranoid about one thing and that is
bears.mostly at night. :) I am even contemplating taking some bear spray
even though I have been told it's not worth the weight.  I would just like
to hear about any encounters with bears farther north.  Should I take bear
spray?  I know there are always dangers in hiking and encountering a bear
with good results or bad is definitely one of them.  However, does anyone
have any advice?  Especially for while you are sleeping and think you hear a
bear in your camp?  I could just use a little advice and would like to hear
about anyone's encounters (if any) that far north.  Thank you.

Jmee2
----- Original Message -----
From: <pct-l-request@mailman.backcountry.net>
To: <pct-l@mailman.backcountry.net>
Sent: Monday, February 10, 2003 11:00 AM
Subject: PCT-L digest, Vol 1 #782 - 29 msgs


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> Today's Topics:
>
>    1. Re: Mosquito bite remedy (Brad Wilson)
>    2. Re: My decision ADZPCTKO versus Sleeping with Food
(Slyatpct@aol.com)
>    3. Re: new thru-hiker bear question (AsABat)
>    4. Re: My decision ADZPCTKO versus Sleeping with Food (yogi hicker)
>    5. Re: Re: Desert Hats (Brad Wilson)
>    6. Re: Re: PCT-L digest, Vol 1 #780 - 34 msgs (Brad Wilson)
>    7. RE: My decision ADZPCTKO versus Sleeping with Food (Jerry Goller)
>    8. Re: Mosquito bite remedy (Michelle Parks)
>    9. ronRe: [pct-l] My decision ADZPCTKO versus Sleeping with Food (Ron
Martino)
>   10. More info and regs. please (CMountainDave@aol.com)
>   11. Re: My decision ADZPCTKO versus Sleeping with Food
(CMountainDave@aol.com)
>   12. This display of hostility... (Michelle Parks)
>   13. Bear-ing the Burden (Andrew Geibel)
>   14. Re: More info and regs. please (Shawnie)
>   15. RE: More info and regs. please (Paul E. Dietrich)
>   16. Wanderlust tents? (Shawnie)
>   17. Re: new thru-hiker bear question (John Brennan)
>   18. Re: Wanderlust tents? (Slyatpct@aol.com)
>   19. Re: Wanderlust tents? (Brad Wilson)
>   20. Sleeping with a Bear Cannister (StoneDancer1@aol.com)
>   21. Re: Sleeping with a Bear Cannister (Frank Kroger)
>   22. Bears and Such (Ronald Moak)
>   23. AND THE REAL QUESTION IS-- (CMountainDave@aol.com)
>   24. Re: Bear-ing the Burden (Randy Forsland)
>   25. PCT Trail Fashions for cheap (Montedodge@aol.com)
>   26. My decision ADZPCTKO versus Sleeping with Food
(StoneDancer1@aol.com)
>   27. Re: Sleeping with a Bear Cannister (StoneDancer1@aol.com)
>   28. Re: Bear-ing the Burden (Brad Wilson)
>   29. Re: My decision ADZPCTKO versus Sleeping with Food
(CMountainDave@aol.com)
>
> --__--__--
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Sun, 09 Feb 2003 23:36:10 -0500
> Subject: Re: [pct-l] Mosquito bite remedy
> From: Brad Wilson <BWIL5272@postoffice.uri.edu>
> To: Michelle <michelle@www.enchantedoutdoors.com>,
>    <pct-l@mailman.backcountry.net>
>
> WARNING!
> Recent Studies have concluded this device does not work on Venomous Snake
> Bites!!
>
>
> This is a quote that appears in big red letters at the top of the web-page
> (link provided by Michelle). I read it and thought "wow, I feel sorry for
> the poor guy that found this out the hard way".
>
> -Brad
>
>
> On 2/9/03 5:12 PM, "Michelle" <michelle@www.enchantedoutdoors.com> wrote:
>
> > The message below is from a previous post by me titled 'DEET and
fabrics'.  I
> > since have found out a bit more about this gadget I described.  Jape
> > mentioned a couple of links having to do with snake venom and DC voltage
that
> > kind of described why this device works.  They were
> > http://bsd.kamakazi.com/docsplace/coiltek/lancet.html
> > http://www.industryinet.com/~ruby/snakebitecure.html
> >
> > One I just found was a link from the UK, haven't found anything from the
US.
> > This link shows the product and how it works.
> > http://www.tecnimed.it/Inglese/Click.htm
> >
> > Maybe someone else can find one.  If you do, let me know -- we want to
buy
> > more!
> >
> > Michelle
> > -------
> > Also wondering if anybody else has seen or used -- I don't remember what
th=
> > e actual brand is or what the device is actually called -- but we call
it o=
> > ur little  "clicker".  Ok, don't laugh because I'm being serious here.
It's=
> > a little yellow plastic case about an inch long with a black push button
o=
> > n the top and inside it is what I assume to be a tiny capacitor.  You
place=
> > one end on a mosquito bite and press the button and it gives you a small
s=
> > hock (you need to do around 5-10 for it to be effective and it doesn't
hurt=
> > unless you get it right on a tendon or bone, then it's just
uncomfortable.=
> > )  If done soon after a bite it gets rid of the itching and swelling.
We l=
> > aughed too when we saw it hanging with the mosquito relief creams at
Walmar=
> > t, but figured what the heck and bought one for $3.  It seriously works.
W=
> > e came back from our trip through the Bechler region of Yellowstone and
wan=
> > ted to buy ten more of them, but couldn't find them anywhere.  Ours was
fro=
> > m the Walmart in Riverton, WY.  If you ever see one get it, you may
think I=
> > sound kooky now, but it was a life saver for us!  ...and it weighs
probabl=
> > y about a quarter of an ounce.
> >
> >
> > --
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > PCT-L mailing list
> > PCT-L@mailman.backcountry.net
> > http://mailman.backcountry.net/mailman/listinfo/pct-l
>
>
> --__--__--
>
> Message: 2
> From: Slyatpct@aol.com
> Date: Sun, 9 Feb 2003 23:43:08 EST
> Subject: Re: [pct-l] My decision ADZPCTKO versus Sleeping with Food
> To: reynolds@ilan.com, yogilists@hotmail.com,
pct-l@mailman.backcountry.net
>
> --
> [ Picked text/plain from multipart/alternative ]
> In a message dated 2/9/2003 11:15:59 PM Eastern Standard Time,
> reynolds@ilan.com writes:
>
> > Naturally, I will not show up for the 2003 ADZPCTKO. I will, instead,
lend
> > my financial support to ending thruhiking without a bear canister.
> >
>
> Why Tom?  I've already pointed out it's quite reasonable for a thru-hiker
to
> legally pass through the Sierras without the need for a bear cannister,
using
> exsisting bear boxes and resorts.
>
> Are you trying to tell us you're going to push for a bear cannister law
the
> lenght of the PCT?
>
> Sly
>
>
> --__--__--
>
> Message: 3
> Reply-To: "AsABat" <AsABat@4Jeffrey.Net>
> From: "AsABat" <AsABat@4Jeffrey.Net>
> To: "yogi hicker" <yogilists@hotmail.com>,
<pct-l@mailman.backcountry.net>,
>    <rich@rlcconsulting.com>
> Cc: <Bighummel@aol.com>, <reynolds@iLAN.com>
> Subject: Re: [pct-l] new thru-hiker bear question
> Date: Sun, 9 Feb 2003 20:38:32 -0800
>
> Yogi and all-
>
> Since my name got thrown into this bear slobber, here's my 2 cents.
>
> While I won't lobby for it, I believe that what Tom proposes could happen
in
> the near future. Inyo, in particular, is already very particular about
bear
> cans. I've had run ins with them when I HAD a bear can because they didn't
> think it'd fit in my little G4 pack.
>
> As no one had answered Richard's question, I posted a response about 4
hours
> ago addressing both the legal view and the practice of many thru-hikers in
a
> nonconfrontational way.
>
> Now, I personally would never sleep with my food, and I don't care what
> others do, but I hope bears don't start storming tents because food might
be
> inside. I still have an old pup tent in my garage which, at Charlotte Lake
> at midnight in 1981, I quickly modified with my pocket knife to add a rear
> door when a bear decided to knock on the front door, even though my food
was
> up in a tree.
>
> Best of luck to the Class of 2003, from a member of the class of 2014.
And,
> Tom, congrats on your acknowledgement in the new (6th) edition of the PCT
> Guide for Southern California.
>
> Peace,
> AsABat
> (Heading out to do Section F this weekend (Thursday through Monday). If
> anyone's interested contact me OFFLIST by Tuesday.)
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "yogi hicker"
> > Asabat and Strider?  What's that all about?
>
>
>
> --__--__--
>
> Message: 4
> From: "yogi hicker" <yogilists@hotmail.com>
> To: reynolds@iLAN.com, pct-l@mailman.backcountry.net
> Date: Sun, 09 Feb 2003 22:44:32 -0600
> Subject: [pct-l] Re: My decision ADZPCTKO versus Sleeping with Food
>
> Tom--
>
> I never said I ate cookies in my tent in Inyo National forest.  You
brought
> Inyo National Forest into this discussion, not me.
>
> Jump on your high horse, and do what you think is best for the grand
poo-pah
> of thru hiking to do.  Good thing we have you to tell us what is immoral,
> because we are all clearly stupid, and can't think for ourselves.
>
> Go ahead and use me as your scapegoat.  Apparently, you need one.  Glad to
> be of service.
>
> yogi
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ----Original Message Follows----
> From: "Reynolds, WT" <reynolds@iLAN.com>
> To: 'yogi hicker' <yogilists@hotmail.com>, pct-l@mailman.backcountry.net
> Subject: My decision ADZPCTKO versus Sleeping with Food
> Date: Sun, 9 Feb 2003 20:11:44 -0800
>
> What it means.
> Sleeping with food is certainly illegial and IMHO immoral as well.
>
> Unless this list NEVER again advocates or supports sleeping with their
food,
> I will withdraw my support of ADZPCTKO and, instead, do what is necessary
to
> make sure that thruhikers cannot thruhike without a bear canister. [In
case
> you think you haven't advocated sleeping with your food, I have several
> years of history to prove otherwise.]
>
> In other words, this FRIEND is turning into an ENEMY.
>
> Yogi, Your jokes about eating cookies in a tent will be very interesting
to
> the Rangers at INYO.
>
> What does ADZPCTKO have to do with it? I do not wish to be hypocritical. I
> will end thruhiking without a bear canister and a couple of thruhikers
will
> get hit with a fine until everybody understands.
>
> Naturally, I will not show up for the 2003 ADZPCTKO. I will, instead, lend
> my financial support to ending thruhiking without a bear canister.
>
> You get it now?
>
> Tom
>
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*.
> http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail
>
>
> --__--__--
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Sun, 09 Feb 2003 23:55:47 -0500
> Subject: Re: [pct-l] Re: Desert Hats
> From: Brad Wilson <BWIL5272@postoffice.uri.edu>
> To: Karen Borski <kborski@yahoo.com>, <pct-l@mailman.backcountry.net>
>
> Has anyone used the Sonora Sombrero from OR?
>
> It looks like a good hat - but it doesn't have the dark under side on the
> brim (to cut glare). I guess if I needed to, I could cut a dark bandana to
> fit and sew it to the underside.
>
> Any thoughts?
>
> -Brad
>
>
> On 2/9/03 4:20 PM, "Karen Borski" <kborski@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> >
> > Thanks to those who sent out the tyvek site links.
> >
> > I wanted to add some sites for those looking to
> > purchase a good desert hat:
> >
> > I have a great a hat:  Broner Solarweave Trekker
> > http://www.prescotthats.com/men_broner_canvas.htm
> >
> > Go for a big brim, light weight, light color.  Invest
> > in something decent, but not too too expensive (as you
> > will trash it, but you really rely on it).
> >
> > Another hat site to check out
> > http://www.watership.com/watership/springsummer.html
> >
> > Nocona
> >
> >
> >
> > __________________________________________________
> > Do you Yahoo!?
> > Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
> > http://mailplus.yahoo.com
> > _______________________________________________
> > PCT-L mailing list
> > PCT-L@mailman.backcountry.net
> > http://mailman.backcountry.net/mailman/listinfo/pct-l
>
>
> --__--__--
>
> Message: 6
> Date: Sun, 09 Feb 2003 23:58:09 -0500
> Subject: Re: [pct-l] Re: PCT-L digest, Vol 1 #780 - 34 msgs
> From: Brad Wilson <BWIL5272@postoffice.uri.edu>
> To: <LCGRCONRAD@aol.com>, <pct-l@mailman.backcountry.net>
>
> IMHO GoLite can't be beat for light weight packs - and they're not as
> expensive as the Gregory.
>
> I used the 11 oz Breeze on the AT, but will be using the new Team Pack on
> the PCT this summer.
>
> GoLite makes a whole line of ultralight clothing and gear - check them out
> at <www.GoLite.com>
>
> -Brad
>
> On 2/9/03 8:44 PM, "LCGRCONRAD@aol.com" <LCGRCONRAD@aol.com> wrote:
>
> > --
> > [ Picked text/plain from multipart/alternative ]
> > I would like to know some names of some good light weight packs for men.
> > Also, has anyone tried the new G-pack by Gregory?  How, is Gregory for
> > durability?
> > Linda
> > _______________________________________________
> > PCT-L mailing list
> > PCT-L@mailman.backcountry.net
> > http://mailman.backcountry.net/mailman/listinfo/pct-l
>
>
> --__--__--
>
> Message: 7
> From: "Jerry Goller" <jerrygoller@backpackgeartest.org>
> To: "'Reynolds, WT'" <reynolds@iLAN.com>,
>    "'yogi hicker'" <yogilists@hotmail.com>,
<pct-l@mailman.backcountry.net>
> Subject: RE: [pct-l] My decision ADZPCTKO versus Sleeping with Food
> Date: Sun, 9 Feb 2003 22:13:00 -0700
>
> I doubt I will be hiking CA this year. But I could make an exception. If I
> go, I'll be sure and send you a picture so you won't be confused as to
which
> one is me. Believe me, I've been threatened with much worse by much better
> than you......   ;o) I know I've been taking my meds but I'm curious if
> you've gotten off yours......
> Jerry
>
> http://www.BackpackGearTest.org : the most comprehensive interactive gear
> reviews and tests on the planet.
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: pct-l-admin@mailman.backcountry.net
> [mailto:pct-l-admin@mailman.backcountry.net] On Behalf Of Reynolds, WT
> Sent: Sunday, February 09, 2003 9:12 PM
> To: 'yogi hicker'; pct-l@mailman.backcountry.net
> Subject: [pct-l] My decision ADZPCTKO versus Sleeping with Food
>
>
> What it means.
> Sleeping with food is certainly illegial and IMHO immoral as well.
>
> Unless this list NEVER again advocates or supports sleeping with their
food,
> I will withdraw my support of ADZPCTKO and, instead, do what is necessary
to
> make sure that thruhikers cannot thruhike without a bear canister. [In
case
> you think you haven't advocated sleeping with your food, I have several
> years of history to prove otherwise.]
>
> In other words, this FRIEND is turning into an ENEMY.
>
> Yogi, Your jokes about eating cookies in a tent will be very interesting
to
> the Rangers at INYO.
>
> What does ADZPCTKO have to do with it? I do not wish to be hypocritical. I
> will end thruhiking without a bear canister and a couple of thruhikers
will
> get hit with a fine until everybody understands.
>
> Naturally, I will not show up for the 2003 ADZPCTKO. I will, instead, lend
> my financial support to ending thruhiking without a bear canister.
>
> You get it now?
>
> Tom
>
> _______________________________________________
> PCT-L mailing list
> PCT-L@mailman.backcountry.net
> http://mailman.backcountry.net/mailman/listinfo/pct-l
>
>
>
> --__--__--
>
> Message: 8
> From: "Michelle Parks" <michelle@enchantedoutdoors.com>
> To: "Brad Wilson" <BWIL5272@postoffice.uri.edu>,
>    <pct-l@mailman.backcountry.net>
> Subject: Re: [pct-l] Mosquito bite remedy
> Date: Sun, 9 Feb 2003 23:15:45 -0700
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Brad Wilson" <BWIL5272@postoffice.uri.edu>
>
>
> > WARNING!
> > Recent Studies have concluded this device does not work on Venomous
Snake
> > Bites!!
> >
> >
> > This is a quote that appears in big red letters at the top of the
web-page
> > (link provided by Michelle). I read it and thought "wow, I feel sorry
for
> > the poor guy that found this out the hard way".
> >
> > -Brad
>
>
>
> Hehehe, no, but the one I'm talking about (from the technimed site) is for
> measly little mosquito bites, hardly life threatening.  For these it's a
> life saver from the COMFORT point of view. :)  Sure hope I don't encounter
> any venomous snakes along the way...
>
> Michelle
>
>
>
> --__--__--
>
> Message: 9
> Date: Sun, 09 Feb 2003 23:20:01 -0700
> From: Ron Martino <yumitori@montana.com>
> To: pct-l@mailman.backcountry.net
> Subject: ronRe: [pct-l] My decision ADZPCTKO versus Sleeping with Food
>
>
> > Unless this list NEVER again advocates or supports sleeping with their
food,
> > I will withdraw my support of ADZPCTKO and, instead, do what is
necessary to
> > make sure that thruhikers cannot thruhike without a bear canister. [In
case
> > you think you haven't advocated sleeping with your food, I have several
> > years of history to prove otherwise.]
>
> Excuse me? What does this list have to do with anything? It's not as if
> it, or its members, are in any way official. The PCT-L is simply a bunch
> of people who have an interest in a particular trail. The statements of
> anyone on this list belong only to them, and does not necessarily
> reflect the opinions of anybody else here. Surely you can understand
> that.
>
> > In other words, this FRIEND is turning into an ENEMY.
>
> > Tom
>
> Your choice. And I mean that literally. You are the one creating this
> tempest at this time, with no immediate catalyst that I can see.
>
> Ron
> --
>
> It is our attitude toward free thought and free expression that will
> determine our fate. There must be no limit on the range of temperate
> discussion, no limits on thought. No subject must be taboo. No censor
> must preside at our assemblies.
> William O. Douglas
>
> yumitori(AT)montana(DOT)com
>
> --__--__--
>
> Message: 10
> From: CMountainDave@aol.com
> Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 01:58:38 EST
> To: pct-l@backcountry.net
> Subject: [pct-l] More info and regs. please
>
> Since the fine folks who rule the Sierra's are wise enough to recommend
what
> meals to take while hiking there, perhaps they can waste, er I mean spend
> some of my user fees to produce pamphlets and movies to discuss the
following
> subjects: How to cook those meals, how to cross a dry stream, the ten non
> essentials, improper footwear, shelter, and pace. How to use a bear box,
how
> you get blisters and sunburn, how to apply suncream, how to fill a water
> bottle, how to pick berries, how to take a crap, how to take good
pictures,
> what to do if killed by lightning, how to posthole, how to use an ice ax
for
> self defense, what to do if it rains or snows, how to identify bear scat
by
> sight smell and taste, how to identify microbes in diarrhea, how to tell
if
> you are hiking uphill, how to fill a permit out properly, a fine schedule,
> good tunes to hum while hiking, things to do atop Mt. Whitney, the best
> lures/bait to use, what to do about sweating, how to read a compass, when
to
> wear a hat, signs of thirst, where to look for water, the best tasting
foods,
> cloud identification, terrorist identification, rule deciphering, and how
to
> develop a proper attitude towards authority figures
>  They should also draw up a list of foods banned because either they are
too
> bulky to fit in a bear can (such as apples, a loaf of bread and a 1lb box
of
> Oreos) or are too yummy for a bear to resist (such as honey)
>   Maybe they can even enlighten us on the mysteries of DEET and why it
works
>  They should also develop a weight schedule to determine when someone
needs
> to carry another bear can: over,say, 200 lbs body weight
>   OSHA needs to get involved also for safety reasons. Perhaps the
following
> should be banned: Ice ax (cut hazard) DEET (cancer risk), suncream with
PABA
> (cancer risk), footwear(blister hazard), water taken from streams, lakes,
or
> snowmelt (potential pathogens), food (choking hazard) hiking poles
(tripping
> hazard) cell phones (potential brain cancer) knifes (cut hazard), toilet
> paper (forest fire hazard) fire starters (ditto), hiking up hill (heart
> hazard), hiking down hill (slip hazard), hiking solo (getting lost hazard)
> shorts (West Nile disease, lyme disease, rocky Mt. spotted fever  and skin
> cancer from sunburn hazard), underwear (chaffing hazard), stream crossings
> (drowning hazard) crossing snow (slip, sunburn, and frost bite hazard),and
> snow pack predictions from non professionals (postholing exhaustion
hazard)
> I'm sure a brainstorming session can come up with many more.
>
> --__--__--
>
> Message: 11
> From: CMountainDave@aol.com
> Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 02:02:29 EST
> Subject: Re: [pct-l] My decision ADZPCTKO versus Sleeping with Food
> To: pct-l@mailman.backcountry.net
>
>
> In a message dated 2/9/03 8:31:09 PM, randy_forsland@hotmail.com writes:
>
> << What a pussy >>
>
> Nah, it's Sunday -- too much alcohol, probably. Maybe he'll put in for
Park
> Supt. And it's gonna be mighty hard to catch someone eating cookies in
their
> tent, doncha think?  Guess we can all worry more about TOM sticking his
head
> in the tent instead of a bear
>
> --__--__--
>
> Message: 12
> From: "Michelle Parks" <michelle@enchantedoutdoors.com>
> To: <pct-l@mailman.backcountry.net>
> Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 00:26:13 -0700
> Subject: [pct-l] This display of hostility...
>
> This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
> --
> [ Picked text/plain from multipart/alternative ]
> I am a new subscriber to this list, probably about a couple of weeks now.
=
> I started in in the middle of the previous discussion on bear canisters.
A=
> lthough opinions were differing, it seemed that everyone was able to see
pa=
> st that and, in a way, just "agree to disagree".  I've seen many other
onli=
> ne discussion forums in the past and no matter what the topic it always
see=
> med like people were just there to hurl insults around.  I went looking
for=
>  some info on the PCT and found this mail list.  Decided to give it a try
a=
> nd was pleasantly surprised that that sort of thing didn't seem to happen
h=
> ere...it seemed that everyone was here to talk about the common hobby they
=
> share and love.
>
> I just witnessed another new subscriber ask a perfectly legitimate
question=
>  in a most enthusiastic way and get scoffed by a certain man here.  I also
=
> witnessed a lady give an honest and encouraging answer to him.  I say
'hone=
> st' because I don't believe she did it to thrust any certain methods on
him=
> , she just went by what she had witnessed in her experiences, I'm sure
Rich=
>  has a mind of his own and can draw his own conclusions.  I find it very
sa=
> d that there are people here trying to quell that enthusiasm with uncalled
=
> for rude comments and threats.
>
> As a side note, as someone who is new to the area and the PCT, and doesn't
=
> have a lot of experience with bears I was also gathering information about
=
> bear canisters.  To the man who is on a relentless crusade to force
everyon=
> e to use a bear canister, your posts did nothing to encourage me to use
one=
>  (but that's just me, maybe it'll work on others).  "You can catch a lot
mo=
> re flies (or was that bears) with honey instead of vinegar."  I drew my
con=
> clusions from sources that had some substance to them.  Whether I'm going
t=
> o use one or not, I'll keep that a secret lest I get myself flamed from
one=
>  side or the other...
>
> Anyway, who ever said thru hiking (or most anything for that matter) was
su=
> pposed to be a 100% safe activity?  I don't care who you are, there are
jus=
> t some things in life that you can't prevent from happening.  While the
bea=
> r can may protect your food, who's to stop the momma bear with cub you
surp=
> rised on the trail from attacking you?
>
> Come on, can't we just have fun here? :)
>
> Michelle
>
> --__--__--
>
> Message: 13
> From: "Andrew Geibel" <ageibel@teleport.com>
> To: <pct-l@mailman.backcountry.net>
> Date: Sun, 9 Feb 2003 23:27:37 -0800
> Subject: [pct-l] Bear-ing the Burden
>
> Tom,
>
> I hope you don't withdraw your input from this list.
>
> Being new to the list & uneducated about backpacking in bear country, I
> found the debate on the PCT-L archive to be very helpful in my decision -
> which is, BTW, to buy & use a bear canister.
>
> Helpful, but VERY tedious.  There were tons of messages & a whole lot of
> diatribe, ranting, and piss & vinegar to sort through (coyote piss &
ammonia
> actually).  From all sides.
>
> I hope you continue to advocate the use of canisters on this list, for the
> benefit of folks who are new, and planning future hikes in the bear
country
> of the PCT.
>
> To prevent you from going rabid with anger, and to prevent newbies from
> having to wade into the morass of the archives, I suggest this: write up a
> one-or-two page summary of your thoughts, which you can re-post via copy &
> paste whenever the topic comes up.
>
> A rational, thorough, academic essay on the topic will be very effective &
> useful.
>
> In addition to the arguments against hanging, sleeping with food, ursacks,
> etc, please include:
> - Info on exactly where canisters are needed
> - Info on models, weight & pricing (links too)
> - Info on rental logistics
>
> Thanks,
>
> -Andrew
>
>
>
>
>
> --__--__--
>
> Message: 14
> From: Shawnie <catfishii@schizoaffective.org>
> To: CMountainDave@aol.com
> Cc: pct-l@backcountry.net
> Subject: Re: [pct-l] More info and regs. please
> Date: Sun, 09 Feb 2003 23:31:39 -0800
> Reply-To: csx@schizoaffective.org
>
>
>
> What we need is for them to tell us how to pack a bear into a bear
container.  I
> can see using it for Raccoons as they are much smaller than bears.  But I
just
> don't see how someone can get a bear into one.  Maybe Tom can help us with
that
> question.
>
>
> On Mon, 10 Feb 2003 01:58:38 EST, you wrote:
>
> >Since the fine folks who rule the Sierra's are wise enough to recommend
what
> >meals to take while hiking there, perhaps they can waste, er I mean spend
> >some of my user fees to produce pamphlets and movies to discuss the
following
> >subjects: How to cook those meals, how to cross a dry stream, the ten non
> >essentials, improper footwear, shelter, and pace. How to use a bear box,
how
> >you get blisters and sunburn, how to apply suncream, how to fill a water
> >bottle, how to pick berries, how to take a crap, how to take good
pictures,
> >what to do if killed by lightning, how to posthole, how to use an ice ax
for
> >self defense, what to do if it rains or snows, how to identify bear scat
by
> >sight smell and taste, how to identify microbes in diarrhea, how to tell
if
> >you are hiking uphill, how to fill a permit out properly, a fine
schedule,
> >good tunes to hum while hiking, things to do atop Mt. Whitney, the best
> >lures/bait to use, what to do about sweating, how to read a compass, when
to
> >wear a hat, signs of thirst, where to look for water, the best tasting
foods,
> >cloud identification, terrorist identification, rule deciphering, and how
to
> >develop a proper attitude towards authority figures
> > They should also draw up a list of foods banned because either they are
too
> >bulky to fit in a bear can (such as apples, a loaf of bread and a 1lb box
of
> >Oreos) or are too yummy for a bear to resist (such as honey)
> >  Maybe they can even enlighten us on the mysteries of DEET and why it
works
> > They should also develop a weight schedule to determine when someone
needs
> >to carry another bear can: over,say, 200 lbs body weight
> >  OSHA needs to get involved also for safety reasons. Perhaps the
following
> >should be banned: Ice ax (cut hazard) DEET (cancer risk), suncream with
PABA
> >(cancer risk), footwear(blister hazard), water taken from streams, lakes,
or
> >snowmelt (potential pathogens), food (choking hazard) hiking poles
(tripping
> >hazard) cell phones (potential brain cancer) knifes (cut hazard), toilet
> >paper (forest fire hazard) fire starters (ditto), hiking up hill (heart
> >hazard), hiking down hill (slip hazard), hiking solo (getting lost
hazard)
> >shorts (West Nile disease, lyme disease, rocky Mt. spotted fever  and
skin
> >cancer from sunburn hazard), underwear (chaffing hazard), stream
crossings
> >(drowning hazard) crossing snow (slip, sunburn, and frost bite
hazard),and
> >snow pack predictions from non professionals (postholing exhaustion
hazard)
> >I'm sure a brainstorming session can come up with many more.
> >_______________________________________________
> >PCT-L mailing list
> >PCT-L@mailman.backcountry.net
> >http://mailman.backcountry.net/mailman/listinfo/pct-l
>
>
> --
> "The degree to which we suffer indicates the degree to which we are alive.
> When we take drugs to ease our suffering, we stifle our psychological and
spiritual life."
>
>  - Peter R. Breggin M.D.
>
> --__--__--
>
> Message: 15
> From: "Paul E. Dietrich" <cactus_paul@earthlink.net>
> To: "pct-l@backcountry.net" <pct-l@backcountry.net>
> Subject: RE: [pct-l] More info and regs. please
> Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 00:14:28 -0800
>
> I have thought long and hard about this!  Well, at least as hard and long
> as I can think after what happened in the early '70s.  I think I have come
> across the answer.  I started with the same concept, using small animals
to
> start with, like a raccoon, although in my case I found it easier to catch
> a cat.  Here is the web site that gave me the finer techniques that I
> needed: http://www.bonsaikitten.com  That's right, BONSAI!  I was still
> working through some of the more difficult aspects when some guy named
> Bernard Libster was able to find and write about somebody's bonsai bear.
>  This disturbed me to no end.  I really thought I was going to be breaking
> new ground, but found out I was better breaking wind.
>
> The PEDestrian
>
> Paul E. Dietrich
> 916-204-5255
> cactus_paul@earthlink.net
>
>
>
> What we need is for them to tell us how to pack a bear into a bear
> container.  I
> can see using it for Raccoons as they are much smaller than bears.  But I
> just
> don't see how someone can get a bear into one.  Maybe Tom can help us with
> that
> question.
>
>
>
>
> --__--__--
>
> Message: 16
> From: Shawnie <catfishii@schizoaffective.org>
> To: pct-l@backcountry.net
> Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 00:40:29 -0800
> Reply-To: csx@schizoaffective.org
> Subject: [pct-l] Wanderlust tents?
>
>
> Has anyone here used a wanderlust tent?  Do they have condensation
problems?
>
>
> http://www.wanderlustgear.com/242.htm
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> "The degree to which we suffer indicates the degree to which we are alive.
> When we take drugs to ease our suffering, we stifle our psychological and
spiritual life."
>
>  - Peter R. Breggin M.D.
>
> --__--__--
>
> Message: 17
> From: "John Brennan" <john@frozenpoodle.com>
> To: "PCT List" <pct-l@mailman.backcountry.net>
> Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 01:54:02 -0800
> Subject: [pct-l] Re: new thru-hiker bear question
>
> If Brick hasn't already shut down this thread, here's my two-cents.
> I hiked NB in 2002 and carried a bear canister from Kennedy Meadows to
Echo
> Lake.  I slept better knowing that if I had a bear encounter, some of my
> food would be safe in the canister.  The rest, what didn't fit into the
> canister despite my years of experience packing and using a bear canister
> and the helpful lesson at last two years' ADZ, went different places,
> depending on my circumstances.  The stinkiest stuff, including garbage,
> always went into the canister.
> -If I was in an area that did not require bear canister and I judged the
> bear risk to be low, I hung the stuff not in canister only high enough to
> keep it from rodents, a "critter hang".
> -If I was low and in a popular area, the stuff not in canister got a
> counter-balanced bear hang in a tree within earshot that best resembled
the
> ideal (but, as was pointed out, elusive) tree, or if I had 25' or higher
> rock faces nearby, I'd do a rock hang.
> -If I was in a high use area, like Rae Lakes, I used the bear boxes.
> -If I assessed the risk to be low and I was stealth camping, I just did a
> critter hang.
>
> I did not comply 100% with the law even though I carried a bear canister.
> Put me on the side with those who choose to sleep with their food.  I'm in
> good company there even though some of those very same people gave me a
hard
> time about my best attempts to comply with a well-meaning law.  I choose
to
> not sleep with my food because I think it's too dangerous.  I don't care
> what others do, even if they are camped right next to me and nibbling
> cookies at night. Yogi was not joking.
>
> The ONLY ranger I saw on the trail in a National Park or where canisters
> were required was in northern Yosemite.  She asked me if I had a canister.
> After she picked her jaw up off the trail, she said that I was the only
> hiker she'd run into this season that had had one.  She did not ask to see
> it.
>
> Which brings me to this point I've said many times: (This is all based on
a
> thru-hike when you'll be in the High Sierra just before, during, or just
> after snow melt, generally during June, using stealth camping techniques,
> and not camping in high-risk areas.) *If you choose to carry a canister,
you
> can get away with the smallest one.  A ranger may ask to see your
canister.
> The ranger does not ask to see all your food.  Pop out the canister and be
> on your way.*  (If you are hiking later in the season, it may be wise to
get
> all your food in a canister.)
>
> I know a fed bear is a dead bear, and that bears can pose a risk to
humans.
> EVERY SINGLE bear that I saw on my hike was running for its life away from
> me.  None of my bear encounters were in the National Parks.  The National
> Park system creates a hunting-free haven where bears don't' have as much
> fear around humans.  The whole dynamic we've set up with bears, frankly,
> sucks. Neither state is natural.
>
> To whoever started this thread, a new hiker, please find whatever it takes
> to endure what this list can put out.  You should have seen the flurry I
> created last year (as a new thru-hiker) when I suggested that it might be
> useful for current thru-hikers to have a separate, low-volume, moderated
> email list dedicated to on-trail information so they didn't have to sort
> through all the other volume this list can generate.
>
> I'm actually interested in following Tom's implementation of his plan.  I
> don't know much about his background.  If he has the tenacity to get to
the
> place where he can issue citations, that will have taken some dedication.
If
> he can get the Federal and State governments to reallocate funds for early
> back-country rangers, I'll be impressed.  Tom: Care to share early
strategy
> plans for implementation?
>
> If Tom does get any thru-hikers on this list ticketed, I'll chip in to
cover
> the cost of the citation, unless, of course, the penalty is death.
>
> How am I going to feel if a food-sleeping thru-hiker has an injurious
> encounter with a bear?  Like they knew the risks and were responsible for
> their own actions.  I do feel sorry for the bear's ultimate demise.
>
> In the spirit of keeping this list useful for current hikers...
> John B./Cupcake
>
>
>
> --__--__--
>
> Message: 18
> From: Slyatpct@aol.com
> Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 07:10:54 EST
> Subject: Re: [pct-l] Wanderlust tents?
> To: csx@schizoaffective.org, pct-l@backcountry.net
>
> --
> [ Picked text/plain from multipart/alternative ]
> In a message dated 2/10/2003 3:42:26 AM Eastern Standard Time,
> catfishii@schizoaffective.org writes:
>
> > Has anyone here used a wanderlust tent?  Do they have condensation
problems?
> >
> >
>
> I've used a Nomadlite for the last 4 years and think they're a great tent.
> Yes, they have condensation problems at times, but no more than any other
> single-walled, silnylon tent.
>
> Kurt's constantly making improvement, adding more ventilation, etc.
Light,
> easy enough to set up, roomy and bear proof.  Err... I mean durable!
>
> Sly
>
> --__--__--
>
> Message: 19
> Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 09:27:15 -0500
> Subject: Re: [pct-l] Wanderlust tents?
> From: Brad Wilson <BWIL5272@postoffice.uri.edu>
> To: <csx@schizoaffective.org>, <pct-l@backcountry.net>
>
> I've never used the tent myself, but I hiked with a guy on the AT in 2001
> that used it. I had a tarp and was so jealous of him on nights when the
bugs
> were bad.
>
> If you haven't seen the tent in person you really need to - it's such a
cool
> design. The trekking poles go inside the tent to give support. I worked at
a
> sail loft here in RI for four years so I have access to all the sewing
> machines and materials I would need. I'm thinking of making my own version
> (with a few changes) to use this summer on the PCT.
>
> When both awnings are up it looked like there would be really good
> ventilation - though I'm sure condensation could be an issue at some
> point...
>
> -Brad
>
>
> On 2/10/03 3:40 AM, "Shawnie" <catfishii@schizoaffective.org> wrote:
>
> >
> > Has anyone here used a wanderlust tent?  Do they have condensation
problems?
> >
> >
> > http://www.wanderlustgear.com/242.htm
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > "The degree to which we suffer indicates the degree to which we are
alive.
> > When we take drugs to ease our suffering, we stifle our psychological
and
> > spiritual life."
> >
> > - Peter R. Breggin M.D.
> > _______________________________________________
> > PCT-L mailing list
> > PCT-L@mailman.backcountry.net
> > http://mailman.backcountry.net/mailman/listinfo/pct-l
>
>
> --__--__--
>
> Message: 20
> From: StoneDancer1@aol.com
> Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 09:31:58 EST
> To: pct-l@mailman.backcountry.net
> Subject: [pct-l] Sleeping with a Bear Cannister
>
> --
> [ Picked text/plain from multipart/alternative ]
> Whoooo Doggies, some of you guys can get worked up about topics.  It seems
> simple to me... either take a cannister - or not.  If you are careful -
eat
> early and hike on, avoid civilization, take pains to hang food adequately
or
> sleep high ( in altitude) -  you will almost certainly be OK.  If you DO
lose
> your food - take heart, you probably will not starve to death.  The most
> difficult place to get out of, would be I think, the section from the
trail
> to Dusy Basin and Bishop Pass until you get all the way over Muir Pass and
> down to the trail to the trail to Piute Pass... The Glacier Divide stands
in
> the way and can be a real drag.  So... probably two days max?  Get a ride
to
> Bishop, restock.  Your schedule might be thrown off 3-4 days... ?  If I
see
> you along the way, I'll share, whether you slept with cookies or not.
Oh,
> and by the way, if the guy to whom I loaned my Birkenstocks after he
> carelessly lost his boots in Bear Creek in 1987 reads this, will you send
> them back?
>
> No Way
>
> --__--__--
>
> Message: 21
> Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 06:41:52 -0800 (PST)
> From: Frank Kroger <fkroger1999@yahoo.com>
> Subject: Re: [pct-l] Sleeping with a Bear Cannister
> To: StoneDancer1@aol.com, pct-l@mailman.backcountry.net
>
> --
> [ Picked text/plain from multipart/alternative ]
>
>
>  StoneDancer1@aol.com wrote:
> >If you DO lose
> >your food - take heart, you probably will not starve to death.
> That is right, YOU won't starve to death, but what happens to the bear(s)
i=
> s another story. Having been exposed to human food they are more likely to
=
> search out more and so YOU have helped to put THEIR lives at risk.
>
> --__--__--
>
> Message: 22
> From: Ronald Moak <rmoak@fallingwater.com>
> To: pct-l@mailman.backcountry.net
> Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 07:26:00 -0800
> Subject: [pct-l] Bears and Such
>
> As usual when I go away from my computer for a while and come back with a
> ton of emails from this list, invariably it's back to the "Bear" topic
> again. It seems to go around like one of those songs that get caught in
your
> head while on a long hike. The harder you work at trying to get rid of it,
> the more it peruses you.
>
> Considering the "Bear Problem" is limited to less than 10% of the trail,
> from just north of Kennedy Meadows to northern border of Yosemite Park, it
> gets more email than just about any other topic.
>
> That's probably to be expected. Since it's the one area that thru-hikers
are
> constantly being told how to hike. If there's anything we don't like, it's
> being told what to do. It just puts a real damper on that feeling of
> independence garnered by a thru-hike.
>
> Still whenever the topic comes up, we seem to instantly develop the
> communicable problem of bladder control. It's like a virus that has a 10
> nanosecond gestation time.
>
> To his credit, even Tom tried to quell the inevitable ruckus by diverting
> the poster to past posts. An action with which some seemed to take an
> affront.
>
> Personally, I hate bear canisters. It too much akin to placing a red hot
> poker on gaping wound to cauterize it. Neither is pleasant, but I never
get
> off on self mutilation. So like most, I hem and haw and try to stealth my
> way around the law.
>
> While we may not like it and fight it with all the energy we can muster,
> eventually we'll be forced to give in and carry a canister. At least
through
> the Sierra range. Why, simply because the forces aligned against us are
> bigger and write the law.
>
> Fortunately there are still thousands of miles of trails for us to wander
> along unmolested. Though I do love those Sierra Mountains, along with many
> thousand others.
>
> --Fallingwater
>
> As a side note. Someone posted a privately sent email to this public
forum.
> In the land of the Internet, this is considered a no-no. Private emails
are
> private, and should be kept that way!
>
>
>
> --__--__--
>
> Message: 23
> From: CMountainDave@aol.com
> Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 11:10:07 EST
> To: pct-l@backcountry.net
> Subject: [pct-l] AND THE REAL QUESTION IS--
>
> Why, along the PCT where bears are plentiful for about 2000 miles, there
is
> only a problem with them in the Sierra National Parks.  Could misguided
> management be the problem, instead of hikers? Have they EVER had a public
> input program, or do their egos get in the way of listening to anybody but
> themselves? Or is it the adversarial situation that they have so
meticulously
> cultivated, viewing anyone who enters their domain as a potential threat
to
> their resources, that prevents meaningful dialogue. Basically, all this
came
> about because people were required to hang their food, which then became
Bear
> Pinatas
>   The entire problem is so reminiscent of the goat debacle in the Olympic
> National Park where a congressman finally had to step in and demand an
> independent investigation of the situation, an investigation that
ultimately
> agreed with Park critics
>
> --__--__--
>
> Message: 24
> From: "Randy Forsland" <randy_forsland@hotmail.com>
> To: <pct-l@mailman.backcountry.net>
> Subject: Re: [pct-l] Bear-ing the Burden
> Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 08:11:24 -0800
>
> But, how can you take advice from a guy that brags about using his
> unapproved bearikade can ?? Wouldnt you think that the self appointed
Mullah
> of cannisters would have seen the fatwa issued by the Park Department
> revoking the approval of his cherished 1 lb 12 oz can ??
>
> The fanatics are all the same...the laws only apply to you..not them...
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Andrew Geibel" <ageibel@teleport.com>
>
> >
> > In addition to the arguments against hanging, sleeping with food,
ursacks,
> > etc, please include:
> > - Info on exactly where canisters are needed
> > - Info on models, weight & pricing (links too)
> > - Info on rental logistics
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > -Andrew
> >
>
>
> --__--__--
>
> Message: 25
> From: Montedodge@aol.com
> Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 11:14:22 EST
> To: pct-l@mailman.backcountry.net
> Subject: [pct-l] PCT Trail Fashions for cheap
>
> --
> [ Picked text/plain from multipart/alternative ]
>  Next time you go to the local " Goodwill" or " Value Village" for your
Brawy
> silk trail shirt, stop over and check out men's sport coats and blazers.
You
> can find a nice wool blend sports coat for under 5.00 dollars and in any
> color under the rainbow.  I once found a great " Lime Green" sports coat
,
> but you can be lucky and find a nice plaid as well! These coats may make
you
> look like some sort of " Trail Pimp" , but are quite serviceable. (
Nothing
> like alittle evening wear when your eating your mac-cheese sitting on a
wet
> log in your plaid sports coat!!)
>      Also check out the pant rack. Look for the thin tight weave military
> dress wool slacks. ( Not the big fluffy wools ones) These wear like iron.
I
> used these in 77 the whole trip.
>      Anybody can buy fleece these days. In the 70's , no fleece or polypro
on
> the trail and most folks used only wool. Next hike try the a wool sports
coat
> and the " Gawdier" the better. Maybe a bright red wool blazer???
>
> --__--__--
>
> Message: 26
> From: StoneDancer1@aol.com
> Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 11:35:16 EST
> To: pct-l@mailman.backcountry.net
> Subject: [pct-l] My decision ADZPCTKO versus Sleeping with Food
>
> --
> [ Picked text/plain from multipart/alternative ]
> Tom Sez:
>
> > <<Sleeping with food is certainly illegial and IMHO immoral as well.>>
> >
>
> As far as illegal.... I think it depends on how old the food is.  And as
for
> immoral...just what do you suspect people are people are doing with all
that
> peanut butter and corn pasta?
>
> No Way
>
> --__--__--
>
> Message: 27
> From: StoneDancer1@aol.com
> Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 11:48:17 EST
> Subject: Re: [pct-l] Sleeping with a Bear Cannister
> To: pct-l@mailman.backcountry.net
>
> --
> [ Picked text/plain from multipart/alternative ]
> In a message dated 2/10/03 6:42:17 AM Pacific Standard Time,
> fkroger1999@yahoo.com writes:
>
> > YOU won't starve to death, but what happens to the bear(s) is another
story.
> > Having been exposed to human food they are more likely to search out
more
> > and so YOU have helped to put THEIR lives at risk.
>
> Well now, that is true.  However, it's a dangerous world we live in...for
> bears too.    And in times when humans are not expected to take the
> responsibility for their own actions, we can hardly expect that of the
birds
> and beasts.  But... just how many bears do you think there are in the
Sierra
> and how many have NEVER tasted human food?    They've all had it or momma
> bear has told them about it and they will ALWAYS search out human food.
And
> actions  always  have unintended consquences... don't be so certain that
> bears, sentenced to a  frustrating lifetime of  smelling something they
can
> never have, won't suffer in some unimaginable but far worse fashion.
>
> No Way
>
> --__--__--
>
> Message: 28
> Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 11:56:34 -0500
> Subject: Re: [pct-l] Bear-ing the Burden
> From: Brad Wilson <BWIL5272@postoffice.uri.edu>
> To: Randy Forsland <randy_forsland@hotmail.com>,
>    <pct-l@mailman.backcountry.net>
>
> On 2/10/03 11:11 AM, "Randy Forsland" <randy_forsland@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > how can you take advice from a guy that brags about using his
> > unapproved bearikade can ?
>
>
> You've got to admit, that's really funny... He was feeling really good
about
> his fancy can before he realized he would have to give himself a ticket
> before he can after the rest of us - because he's breaking the rules he so
> feverously preaches.
>
> Kinda like the woman on my street that always complains about the teens
> driving fast by her house. She called to have a speed trap up on our
> street... I just laughed when I drove by as the officer asked to see her
> license and registration. As it turns out she was the only one caught in
the
> trap she requested.
>
> -Brad
>
>
> --__--__--
>
> Message: 29
> From: CMountainDave@aol.com
> Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 12:33:15 EST
> Subject: Re: [pct-l] My decision ADZPCTKO versus Sleeping with Food
> To: pct-l@mailman.backcountry.net
>
>
> In a message dated 2/10/03 8:37:45 AM, StoneDancer1@aol.com writes:
>
> << As far as illegal.... I think it depends on how old the food is.  And
as
> for
> immoral...just what do you suspect people are people are doing with all
that
> peanut butter and corn pasta?
>  >>
>
> Now THAT's funny!!!
>
>
> --__--__--
>
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>
> End of PCT-L Digest
>