From belcherjd at juno.com Wed Jun 16 11:30:46 2021 From: belcherjd at juno.com (belcherjd at juno.com) Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2021 16:30:46 GMT Subject: [pct-l] Pct-L Digest, Vol 140, Issue 2 Message-ID: <20210616.093046.1447.0@webmail02.dca.untd.com> Why Yakima? They only way to go east from White Pass would be to either yogi a ride at the trail heads (north or south sides of the HWY) or at the Kracker Barrel ..... or to hitch a ride (use "hiker to town" sign vs thumb is better) on the Hwy. If you go west to Packwood is MUCH the shortest route to get to transit systems and may be an easier hitch and has everything to resupply for a hiker. 'til later Jon (Gandalf) Belcher ---------- Original Message ---------- From: pct-l-request at backcountry.net To: pct-l at backcountry.net Subject: Pct-L Digest, Vol 140, Issue 2 Date: Wed, 05 May 2021 12:00:01 -0500 Today's Topics: 1. Re: Question (Mike) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 On 5/4/21 12:00 PM, pct-l-request at backcountry.net wrote: > Greetings, > > Does the group have any recommendations on getting from White Pass, WA to Yakima, WA? > > Dave > aka ?Chief? ____________________________________________________________ Sponsored by https://www.newser.com/?utm_source=part&utm_medium=uol&utm_campaign=rss_taglines_more Biden, Putin Talks End Earlier Than Expected http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3131/60ca2767f1e1e27670773st01duc1 He Reluctantly Testified. Now His Home Is Burned and He's Gone http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3131/60ca276820f4b27670773st01duc2 Lumber Price Shift Suggests a 'Bubble That Has Burst' http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3131/60ca2768445bd27670773st01duc3 From susanpease59 at gmail.com Wed Jun 16 18:08:44 2021 From: susanpease59 at gmail.com (Susan Pease) Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2021 16:08:44 -0700 Subject: [pct-l] Looking for hiking partner Harts Pass, WA Message-ID: Looking for hiking partner for WA Harts Pass to Canada border, Sept 1-3 (or 1-5 if have to yo-yo back to Harts Pass). 39.7 miles if hike to Manning Park in Canada, or 65 miles if go back to Harts Pass. Right now cannot hike to Manning Park. From pctl at oakapple.net Wed Jun 16 22:51:54 2021 From: pctl at oakapple.net (David Hough reading PCT-L) Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2021 20:51:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [pct-l] pct-l archive backup Message-ID: <202106170351.15H3ps5V024026@server-f.oakapple.net> With Ryan's agreement I've set up backups of the pct-l archives. https://pcnst.oakapple.net/mailman.backcountry.net/pipermail/pct-l/ backs up http://mailman.backcountry.net/pipermail/pct-l/ for 7/2006-6/2021 This will be resynced with backcountry.net from time to time but not necessarily daily. https://pcnst.oakapple.net/www.backcountry.net/arch/pct-l/ backs up http://www.backcountry.net/arch/pct/ for 12/1999-3/2006 There is also a (small) backup mailing list pct-l at oakapple.net for times when backcountry.net is down - for pct-l at oakapple.net - https://mailman.oakapple.net/mailman/listinfo/pct-l sort of backs up for pct-l at backcountry.net - https://mailman.backcountry.net/mailman/listinfo/pct-l It has its own (small) archive - https://mailman.oakapple.net/pipermail/pct-l/ for 7/2019-6/2021 None of these backup archives has a search function yet. That's on my todo list. Maybe after hiking season and fire season. You can also search backcountry.net by googling something like site:backcountry.net pct joshua tree spring and that seems to work pretty well. The young and hip seem to have migrated to Facebook or beyond, but old technology still works for people who are tired of giving away their personal data to be sold. David Hough From tumstead96 at gmail.com Thu Jun 17 13:47:03 2021 From: tumstead96 at gmail.com (Tim Umstead) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2021 11:47:03 -0700 Subject: [pct-l] Halfmiles Maps Message-ID: I know that Halfmile pulled his PCT maps a few years ago and that saddens me. I love using those maps. Yes, like many, I have phone apps that do the same thing, but I still like having a paper copy. Right now I'm planning a short 400 mile trip from Tuolumne Meadows to Sierra City with a side trip around Lake Tahoe. I went looking through my hard drive for Halfmile's maps. I found some. That made me realize I would like a full copy of his PCT maps. A request: Can you look on your computers for any of Halfmile's map sections and send them to me? I would most appreciate it. What I have so far: Ca Sections G-L (2018) Or Sections C-F (2013) Wa Sections H-L (2016) Thanks Papa Raven PCT 96,15 CDT 17 AT 19 From pctl at marcusschwartz.com Thu Jun 17 16:34:39 2021 From: pctl at marcusschwartz.com (Town Food) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2021 14:34:39 -0700 Subject: [pct-l] Halfmiles Maps In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0d601be5-19e8-52ec-00c6-0a918a9688fd@marcusschwartz.com> You can find old versions of Halfmile's website (and many other websites) on the Internet Archive project, at archive.org. His map downloads from late 2019 can be found here: https://web.archive.org/web/20191115075409/https://www.pctmap.net/maps/ You can use the left and right arrows at the top of the page to move forward and backwards in time, in case some of the links are broken. -=Town Food On 6/17/21 11:47 AM, Tim Umstead wrote: > I know that Halfmile pulled his PCT maps a few years ago and that saddens > me. I love using those maps. Yes, like many, I have phone apps that do > the same thing, but I still like having a paper copy. Right now I'm > planning a short 400 mile trip from Tuolumne Meadows to Sierra City with a > side trip around Lake Tahoe. I went looking through my hard drive for > Halfmile's maps. I found some. That made me realize I would like a full > copy of his PCT maps. > > A request: Can you look on your computers for any of Halfmile's map > sections and send them to me? I would most appreciate it. > > What I have so far: > > Ca > Sections G-L (2018) > > Or > Sections C-F (2013) > > Wa > Sections H-L (2016) > > Thanks > > Papa Raven > PCT 96,15 > CDT 17 > AT 19 > _______________________________________________ > Pct-L mailing list > Pct-L at backcountry.net > To unsubscribe, or change options visit: > http://mailman.backcountry.net/mailman/listinfo/pct-l > > List Archives: > http://mailman.backcountry.net/pipermail/pct-l/ > All content is copyrighted by the respective authors. > Reproduction is prohibited without express permission. > From tumstead96 at gmail.com Thu Jun 17 16:52:00 2021 From: tumstead96 at gmail.com (Tim Umstead) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2021 14:52:00 -0700 Subject: [pct-l] Halfmile's Paper Maps Message-ID: I just found an unofficial archive of this latest copy of Halfmile's maps. They are at: http://edthesmokebeard.com/unofficial-archive-of-halfmile-2018-pct-maps/ Papa Raven PCT 96, 15 CDT 17 AT 19 From kellyhikes2 at gmail.com Thu Jun 17 17:03:29 2021 From: kellyhikes2 at gmail.com (Kelly Baraga) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2021 15:03:29 -0700 Subject: [pct-l] Halfmiles Maps In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <58C01E18-63FB-4774-8427-6E6BCCD09440@gmail.com> Papa Raven I just got a new IPhone and dang it anyhow, lost my Halfmile app ?. I?m thinking there must be a place that has these beautifully crafted maps somewhere? I too would live a hard copy and somehow to restore them on my new but not improved phone! Hope all is well with you and Mam Raven. How?s her feet holding up? I bout the shilitat after she wrote about it. Much Love GiGi We see people as they are. But Jesus sees us for who we are to become! > On Jun 17, 2021, at 11:47 AM, Tim Umstead wrote: > > ?I know that Halfmile pulled his PCT maps a few years ago and that saddens > me. I love using those maps. Yes, like many, I have phone apps that do > the same thing, but I still like having a paper copy. Right now I'm > planning a short 400 mile trip from Tuolumne Meadows to Sierra City with a > side trip around Lake Tahoe. I went looking through my hard drive for > Halfmile's maps. I found some. That made me realize I would like a full > copy of his PCT maps. > > A request: Can you look on your computers for any of Halfmile's map > sections and send them to me? I would most appreciate it. > > What I have so far: > > Ca > Sections G-L (2018) > > Or > Sections C-F (2013) > > Wa > Sections H-L (2016) > > Thanks > > Papa Raven > PCT 96,15 > CDT 17 > AT 19 > _______________________________________________ > Pct-L mailing list > Pct-L at backcountry.net > To unsubscribe, or change options visit: > http://mailman.backcountry.net/mailman/listinfo/pct-l > > List Archives: > http://mailman.backcountry.net/pipermail/pct-l/ > All content is copyrighted by the respective authors. > Reproduction is prohibited without express permission. From tumstead96 at gmail.com Thu Jun 17 21:21:50 2021 From: tumstead96 at gmail.com (Tim Umstead) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2021 19:21:50 -0700 Subject: [pct-l] Halfmiles Maps In-Reply-To: <58C01E18-63FB-4774-8427-6E6BCCD09440@gmail.com> References: <58C01E18-63FB-4774-8427-6E6BCCD09440@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi GG, See half the letters, for us laze swipers. ? Halfmile's app is available for Android phones. Although it comes with 2015 data. I don't have an iAnything, so I'm not sure if the app is on the apple store. Mama Ravens feet are in control... Not healed, but loss pain. I hope your doing well. It had been awhile since we connected. Papa Raven On Thu, Jun 17, 2021, 5:25 PM Kelly Baraga wrote: > Papa Raven > > I just got a new IPhone and dang it anyhow, lost my Halfmile app ?. I?m > thinking there must be a place that has these beautifully crafted maps > somewhere? I too would live a hard copy and somehow to restore them on my > new but not improved phone! Hope all is well with you and Mam Raven. How?s > her feet holding up? I bout the shilitat after she wrote about it. > > Much Love > GiGi > > We see people as they are. But Jesus sees us for who we are to become! > > > On Jun 17, 2021, at 11:47 AM, Tim Umstead wrote: > > > > ?I know that Halfmile pulled his PCT maps a few years ago and that > saddens > > me. I love using those maps. Yes, like many, I have phone apps that do > > the same thing, but I still like having a paper copy. Right now I'm > > planning a short 400 mile trip from Tuolumne Meadows to Sierra City with > a > > side trip around Lake Tahoe. I went looking through my hard drive for > > Halfmile's maps. I found some. That made me realize I would like a full > > copy of his PCT maps. > > > > A request: Can you look on your computers for any of Halfmile's map > > sections and send them to me? I would most appreciate it. > > > > What I have so far: > > > > Ca > > Sections G-L (2018) > > > > Or > > Sections C-F (2013) > > > > Wa > > Sections H-L (2016) > > > > Thanks > > > > Papa Raven > > PCT 96,15 > > CDT 17 > > AT 19 > > _______________________________________________ > > Pct-L mailing list > > Pct-L at backcountry.net > > To unsubscribe, or change options visit: > > http://mailman.backcountry.net/mailman/listinfo/pct-l > > > > List Archives: > > http://mailman.backcountry.net/pipermail/pct-l/ > > All content is copyrighted by the respective authors. > > Reproduction is prohibited without express permission. > From ndreon at yahoo.com Fri Jun 18 10:52:44 2021 From: ndreon at yahoo.com (Nathan Dreon) Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2021 15:52:44 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [pct-l] LAX to Bishop References: <586036863.1187144.1624031564293.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <586036863.1187144.1624031564293@mail.yahoo.com> Hi All,Rental cars are unavailable for my date.So I checked Lyft, they estimate $120 to get from LAX to Lancaster, then I could get the Eastern Sierra bus to Bishop, if?the timing for the connection?works out. ?So if it works well it would be $150 for the trip.Anyone know of other options? Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone From james8313 at sti.net Fri Jun 18 12:38:23 2021 From: james8313 at sti.net (james8313 at sti.net) Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2021 10:38:23 -0700 Subject: [pct-l] Pct-L Digest, Vol 141, Issue 3 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7eb6f105c6df12f846baebe6459934a1@127.0.0.1> Old info but the links should still be good - pre 2010 To Lancaster: LAX FLYAWAY --- http://www.lawa.org/flyaway/ bus to Union Station 1 hour trip $7.00 Metrollink --- http://www.metrolinktrains.com/ train to Lancaster -- $11.75 CREST Bus North to Pearsonville Shell Station -- Mammoth -- see if they may drop you off at Nine Mile Canyon - Kennedy Meadows Road a few miles north of Pearsonville -- this is a M-W-F only bus service -- http://easternsierratransitauthority.com/wb/pages/bus-routes/crest-mam moth-lancaster.php Yosemite James > Message: 6 > Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2021 15:52:44 +0000 (UTC) > From: Nathan Dreon > To: PCT > Subject: [pct-l] LAX to Bishop > Message-ID: <586036863.1187144.1624031564293 at mail.yahoo.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 > > Hi All,Rental cars are unavailable for my date.So I checked Lyft, they > estimate $120 to get from LAX to Lancaster, then I could get the Eastern > Sierra bus to Bishop, if?the timing for the connection?works out. ?So if it > works well it would be $150 for the trip.Anyone know of other options? > > > Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone > > > ------------------------------ > > Subject: Digest Footer > > _______________________________________________ > Pct-L mailing list > Pct-L at backcountry.net > To unsubscribe, or change options visit: > http://mailman.backcountry.net/mailman/listinfo/pct-l > > List Archives: > http://mailman.backcountry.net/pipermail/pct-l/ > > All content is copyrighted by the respective authors. > Reproduction is prohibited without express permission. > > ------------------------------ > > End of Pct-L Digest, Vol 141, Issue 3 > ************************************* From mel at tungate.com Fri Jun 18 18:41:09 2021 From: mel at tungate.com (Mel Tungate) Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2021 16:41:09 -0700 Subject: [pct-l] LAX to Bishop In-Reply-To: <586036863.1187144.1624031564293@mail.yahoo.com> References: <586036863.1187144.1624031564293@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Go to google maps, put in Bishop as the destination, LAX as the origination, and click on bus symbol. You can also play with the day and time. It is usually pretty good at getting you close. Mel > On Jun 18, 2021, at 8:53 AM, Nathan Dreon wrote: > > ?Hi All,Rental cars are unavailable for my date.So I checked Lyft, they estimate $120 to get from LAX to Lancaster, then I could get the Eastern Sierra bus to Bishop, if the timing for the connection works out. So if it works well it would be $150 for the trip.Anyone know of other options? > > > Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone > _______________________________________________ > Pct-L mailing list > Pct-L at backcountry.net > To unsubscribe, or change options visit: > http://mailman.backcountry.net/mailman/listinfo/pct-l > > List Archives: > http://mailman.backcountry.net/pipermail/pct-l/ > All content is copyrighted by the respective authors. > Reproduction is prohibited without express permission. > From pctl at oakapple.net Tue Jun 29 13:32:47 2021 From: pctl at oakapple.net (David Hough reading PCT-L) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2021 11:32:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [pct-l] western section R Message-ID: <202106291832.15TIWlQC018957@server-f.oakapple.net> Last week I dayhiked over three days from about a mile south of Grider Creek Campground to Reeves Ranch Spring road. Not in that order or direction, but I'm trying to report in northbound through hiker perspective. ** Sun 20 Jun - sec Q - in and out hike north from Grider Creek Campground until I got discouraged after about 1.25 miles and turned around. Grider Creek is big but not convenient to get to. No Name Creek was running. Deadfall trees were not a problem but the brush was extremely thick, though it was not hard to follow the trail. Lots of poison oak. Through hikers that night, camped at the Mid-River RV Park, asked if I intended to go south on the PCT from Grider Creek Campground, and said don't do it. I'd already had enough. There were around half a dozen through hikers each day. A difference between a one-way hike and an in-and-out hike is that on the one-way you can always tell yourself that that last brush or log was bad but you're past it and will never see it again and things might get better from now on - so you have an incentive to keep going. On an in-and-out you know that you WILL have to go through that last brush or log again and the next one might be worse - so you have an incentive to give up and turn around. ** Sun 20 Jun - sec Q - section hiking the 6 mile road walk from Grider Creek Campground to Mid-River RV Park in Seiad Valley. The PCTA website correctly advises about relentless big rig traffic on highway 96, hauling logs and road repair material. I figured there'd be less or none on Sunday, and I was right. Since the temperature was around 100, two cars were set up to leapfrog every couple of miles, and had drinks stored in each so no packs required. The RV Park welcomed tent camping at through-hiker rates ($15/day) but parking vehicles along the highway. Amazingly the store next door was open until 7pm and had not run out of ice yet nor of craft beer (Caldera and Fall River). ** Mon 21 Jun - sec R - Cook and Green Pass to Seiad Valley, reported backwards. Hwy 96 is pretty calm toward dusk even on weekdays. Once you reach the trail, it's quite clean and passable for equestrians as far as Fern Spring, which is flowing at about 4 liters/minute. After that, it gets really ugly really fast, although perhaps not as bad as Grider Canyon. With a mile there are 36" equestrian showstopper, hiker crawl-under trees on steep brushy hillsides with lots of poison oak, interspersed with short stretches of perfectly clear trail. From CS1661 to lower Devil's Peak is the worst brush - a jungle of blue ceanothus. When you lose the trail, carefully backtrack to where you see it again and look more carefully. But if you made it through Grider Canyon it should be surmountable. Generally speaking, when you hit burned areas in Q and R, you hit dense brush and many down logs - and abundant wildflowers. Coming the other direction, Lookout Spring was a godsend. "BINK: My favorite PCT spring." - yogi's book It's not the fastest or the coldest or the most convenient, but on a 100 degree day I took its piped output on faith and drank 2 liters untreated - I hadn't brought water purification since I thought I was carrying enough water. It's in an improbable lovely fern nook and was dripping about 1 liter/minute. >From here to Cook and Green Pass there were signs of equestrian use and no showstopper trees or intolerable brush. The through hikers from the RV Park the night before made it UP to Kangaroo Springs in 7 hours, starting at 5am; I made it DOWN over the same ground in the same time. They said they got water at Kangaroo; I could see the ponds of the springs from the trail but didn't get close. Lily Pad lake looked pretty but stagnant. WA1668 is supposed to be seasonal but was running well, near the road crossing. I looked down at Echo Lake from the saddle but neither the lake nor the "trail" down looked attractive. >From there to Cook and Green Pass there were about half a dozen trees down, none absolutely impassible to stock, but together enough to suggest that equestrians might prefer the road that runs below the trail. There was seasonal water running across the trail about a mile before Cook and Green Pass, but the Cook and Green Spring is probably preferable - I didn't check it. ** Tue 22 Jun - sec R - Reeves Ranch Spring road 47N63 to Cook and Green Pass, reported backwards I ran into the same through hikers from the RV park Sunday night, as well as others from Monday night. At the hairpin turn on the crest, the road is about 5' from the PCT and there is a little space for parking. Nearby is a monument to a hiker or cowboy who perished nearby in October many years ago. For the most part this was easy hiking compared to the day before. Equestions would find showstopper trees on the ascent from Cook and Green to Copper Butte, but the rest of the trail is in great shape with manageable trees and brush and amazing flowers. No water on the trail, and I didn't go off trail to check the springs. David Hough From pctl at oakapple.net Tue Jun 29 13:34:59 2021 From: pctl at oakapple.net (David Hough reading PCT-L) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2021 11:34:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [pct-l] more on western section R - through hikers have it easy! Message-ID: <202106291834.15TIYx5s019004@server-f.oakapple.net> Through-hikers have it easy! All through-hikers have to worry about is getting back and forth to town, post office/market resupply hours, and staying clean and healthy. Dayhiking, especially leap-frog dayhiking with two cars, is more exciting. First, if you rent a car (in this case, from the Redding or Medford airport) you have to assume that at least one tire has a slow leak, so you better bring a tire pump that plugs into the cigarette lighter. One tire on the rental required re-inflation every morning. A jumper cable is also a good idea. The tire pump and jumper cable in the other car 10-15 trail miles away don't count. Then there's the question of finding the right access roads. The Semb books recommend the fairly good gravel roads to Wards Fork Gap and Cook and Green Pass, but I needed something in between. Last year I covered Reeves Ranch Springs road 47N63 to Wards Fork Gap. You can get to Alex Hole or Reeves Ranch Springs from 40S01 which runs all the way from highway 96 to Wards Fork Gap and points east. However the lower 7 miles of 40S01 are very narrow and steep and encountering another vehicle would be a major challenge. Much better is to take Road 12 from highway 96 in Klamath River. It's a wide gravel road that climbs and then contours for miles until finally reaching a junction with 47N63 which has a sign and is a good dirt road that takes you up to the PCT at the crest. As with all Forest Service roads, get the current vehicle maps from https://www.fs.usda.gov/detail/klamath/maps-pubs/?cid=fseprd538471 and print out the parts you need. So you have your maps, find your trailheads, complete your hike, and then drive back down from Cook and Green Pass to Seiad Valley - except you might encounter a tree in the road at an awkward place. Like a mile below the waterfall. It wasn't there the day before. Very awkwardly placed, with a shoulder too soft and narrow to drive around, and even if you have a chain saw - if you cut the part that's impaled in the road you might release the much bigger part up above you to come down and impale you. So you consider your options and realize that there is at most one - turning around on this narrow road, driving back over Cook and Green Pass and down into Oregon's Applegate Valley and then back to I-5 and Medford or Ashland. Of course there might be a rock or a tree blocking that road, too, and there's no cell service anywhere around here. Not thinking that they might be necessary, you might not have any Oregon or Rogue River NF maps. But since it's the only option, you charge down and finally make your way to pavement and then to OR highway 238 and you can get back to Yreka in just a couple of hours after turning around at the tree. The next day you pump up the tires again and drive back to Klamath River and Road 12 to retrieve the other car. But not without further incident - you'd better be ready to change a tire yourself in an area of no cell service. One of the tires blew out on Forest Road 12, a pretty major gravel road. Getting the donut on and making it back to highway 96, the first open business was the Klamath River Post Office where the friendly postmaster advised us the nearest place to get flats fixed was Yreka. Weldon's Tire Shop near the Yreka Post Office was able to replace the flat tire and patch the leaky tire, although it still seemed to lose pressure. Compounding this, CalTrans is repaving highway 96 between Klamath River and I-5, so there was a 10-20 minute wait four times that day. But all's well that ends well, and the rental car was returned only 5 hours late. David Hough From pctl at oakapple.net Tue Jun 29 13:47:53 2021 From: pctl at oakapple.net (David Hough reading PCT-L) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2021 11:47:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [pct-l] more on western section R - through hikers have it easy! Message-ID: <202106291847.15TIlrMq020367@server-f.oakapple.net> Wait there's more - it's not that easy to interest anybody in a tree blocking a road after 5pm. As I made my escape from Cook and Green Pass into Applegate Valley, I thought of the four cars still parked at the pass that had probably come up from Seiad Valley via the road now blocked. Trees falling and blocking roads in a national forest burn area are not exactly news, but there seemed to be enough of an emergency aspect to warrant taking steps - there might be an emergency if somebody tried to drive around that particular tree or tried to cut it themselves. So who do you call? When I got to an inhabited place (Ruch, OR) with a cell phone signal I tried calling 911 and got a busy signal. Later in Ashland I tried calling the Klamath National Forest main number in Yreka and got a recording to call back in the morning - no message or emergency dispatch number. Finally I called the Siskiyou County Sheriff HQ and they actually were open and somebody took the message and promised to pass it on to Klamath NF, though expressing doubt that anything would be done before morning. The next morning I called the nearest Klamath NF Ranger District in Happy Camp and gave the same message, suggesting they might want to close the Cook and Green Pass road at both ends. The person taking the message said she hadn't heard of the problem but would ask somebody to drive up to take a look and evaluate. Nobody ever called me back for further information, and I haven't heard of any day hikers starving to death at Cook and Green Pass, so I suppose it's all resolved one way or another by now. David Hough From pctl at marcusschwartz.com Tue Jun 29 14:51:25 2021 From: pctl at marcusschwartz.com (Town Food) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2021 12:51:25 -0700 Subject: [pct-l] western section R In-Reply-To: <202106291832.15TIWlQC018957@server-f.oakapple.net> References: <202106291832.15TIWlQC018957@server-f.oakapple.net> Message-ID: <291913da-129f-4e0c-baf2-ee5fe9a071dd@marcusschwartz.com> Your mention of wildflowers in burn zones reminded me -- it seems to me that the wildflowers in burn zones on the PCT tend to be mostly purple. Overwhelmingly so, even. I'm no botanist, and this was just my general impression, hardly a scientific study. So I may just be totally wrong about that. But could there be a botanical reason for purple, specifically, to be advantageous in burn zones? Just curious if anybody knows. -=Town Food On 6/29/21 11:32 AM, David Hough reading PCT-L wrote: > Generally speaking, when you hit burned areas in Q and R, > you hit dense brush and > many down logs - and abundant wildflowers. From JimLBanks at verizon.net Tue Jun 29 16:34:16 2021 From: JimLBanks at verizon.net (JimLBanks at verizon.net) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2021 14:34:16 -0700 Subject: [pct-l] Western Section R References: <000c01d76d2e$83fbcf00$8bf36d00$.ref@verizon.net> Message-ID: <000c01d76d2e$83fbcf00$8bf36d00$@verizon.net> David, the trail conditions you describe are becoming more and more common from one end of the trail to the other. The original purpose of the PCTA was to maintain the trail. However, the PCTA has become an organization more concerned with "social justice" and sponsoring a hiker who writes on the PCTA blog that the trail itself was built "on racist ideologies and practices." The PCTA gets almost $1 million a year from the US Forest Service to maintain the trail, but spends its money on more and more staff (none of which actually do trail maintenance as their job), fancy offices, and racial sensitivity training for the staff. The trail maintenance volunteers are out there busting their asses working on the trail, but there are just not enough volunteers to get the job done, especially with all the damage done to the trail in the last 10 years or so from so many huge devasting fires. I-Beam From pctl at oakapple.net Tue Jun 29 16:39:15 2021 From: pctl at oakapple.net (David Hough reading PCT-L) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2021 14:39:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [pct-l] western section R Message-ID: <202106292139.15TLdFZi018977@server-f.oakapple.net> In this case, lots of blue ceanothus and purple lupine - but lots of white and yellow flowers as well. And lots of succulents - the rocks in this are fairly unusual - "orange ancient ultramafic intrusives" according to Schaffer. From marmotwestvanc at hotmail.com Tue Jun 29 19:08:07 2021 From: marmotwestvanc at hotmail.com (marmot marmot) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2021 00:08:07 +0000 Subject: [pct-l] Western Section R In-Reply-To: <000c01d76d2e$83fbcf00$8bf36d00$@verizon.net> References: <000c01d76d2e$83fbcf00$8bf36d00$.ref@verizon.net>, <000c01d76d2e$83fbcf00$8bf36d00$@verizon.net> Message-ID: You?ve got to be kidding me. Since 1987, every time I was on any of the trails I wondered where the rest of the world went. No people of color. Virtually every hiker out there was northern Euro decent and the vast majority male. That has just barely started to change. We should be celebrating the change not complaining (with no back up figures and statistics) that money is being diverted from trail maintenance to so -called extraneous expenses. Each bit of education taught in a work place makes all us safer. It is not in any way unnecessary. I saw the change in my industry. I?m a painter in the Motion Picture Union so you can see what I mean. Understanding the issues makes all the difference in the world. I cheer every time I see the diversity of the hikers grow. I think it is magical. We have an over grown trail because of over a year of a challenging pandemic. It will take awhile to remedy. It?s hard in the meantime. It takes us all back in time when the trails weren?t finished and there were constant blow downs to crawl over. I walked through miles and miles of poison ivy and nettles that I had to beat back with my hiking stick on the AT in ?91. The PCT ,in ?94,luckily was finished but not very well maintained. I had ripped and repaired hiking clothing from the needles in the chaparral which covered hundreds of miles in southern Calif Of course the CDT in ?96 was just a southward ramble with map and compass hitting marked trail randomly about 1/3 of the way. I still feel lucky on each trail these days when the way is clear. I whine when they build stairs instead of switch backs. That?s just because I?m not a trail building expert and have to guess the reason for that is there might be a structural issue of which I am unaware. But,I still whine ? cause I hate stairs. I moan and complain every time I have to crawl over a downed tree. As my kid used to say when he was a teenager ? Oh Well !!? I hope everyone remembers what the reality of why the trail maintenance is behind. We need to avoid inappropriate transference from one practice( sensitivity training of all types that people often misunderstand and something that causes some people to be afraid) to a situation that has a different cause. We have all had to grow up and take a hard look at our preconceived ideas. This is a time to help build the trail or contribute to the PCTA financially. I?m sure there is a way to earmark a donation for trail maintenance only if you are worried. Ask the office. The other choice might be to run for the PCTA board. I spend 16 years on the ALDHAWEST board. I didn?t alway agree with the final decisions by the board but at least I had input. Show up at PCT days. Help. Volunteer Hope to see you all at the next ALDHAWEST ?in person? gathering or like I usually do?on some trail. I leave next week for my first long hike since this whole COVID mess started. Can?t get the grin off my face Marmot Sent from my iPhone > On Jun 29, 2021, at 2:34 PM, JimLBanks at verizon.net wrote: > > ?David, the trail conditions you describe are becoming more and more common > from one end of the trail to the other. The original purpose of the PCTA > was to maintain the trail. However, the PCTA has become an organization > more concerned with "social justice" and sponsoring a hiker who writes on > the PCTA blog that the trail itself was built "on racist ideologies and > practices." The PCTA gets almost $1 million a year from the US Forest > Service to maintain the trail, but spends its money on more and more staff > (none of which actually do trail maintenance as their job), fancy offices, > and racial sensitivity training for the staff. The trail maintenance > volunteers are out there busting their asses working on the trail, but there > are just not enough volunteers to get the job done, especially with all the > damage done to the trail in the last 10 years or so from so many huge > devasting fires. > > > > I-Beam > > _______________________________________________ > Pct-L mailing list > Pct-L at backcountry.net > To unsubscribe, or change options visit: > http://mailman.backcountry.net/mailman/listinfo/pct-l > > List Archives: > http://mailman.backcountry.net/pipermail/pct-l/ > All content is copyrighted by the respective authors. > Reproduction is prohibited without express permission. From marmotwestvanc at hotmail.com Tue Jun 29 19:27:37 2021 From: marmotwestvanc at hotmail.com (marmot marmot) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2021 00:27:37 +0000 Subject: [pct-l] western section R In-Reply-To: <291913da-129f-4e0c-baf2-ee5fe9a071dd@marcusschwartz.com> References: <202106291832.15TIWlQC018957@server-f.oakapple.net>, <291913da-129f-4e0c-baf2-ee5fe9a071dd@marcusschwartz.com> Message-ID: And it changes the biodiversity within the same species. Makes more seeds too Maybe the colour attracts different insects or birds to spread the new seeds and pollen and moves around the new combined DNA. Marmot Sent from my iPhone > On Jun 29, 2021, at 12:51 PM, Town Food wrote: > > ?Your mention of wildflowers in burn zones reminded me -- it seems to me that the wildflowers in burn zones on the PCT tend to be mostly purple. Overwhelmingly so, even. > > I'm no botanist, and this was just my general impression, hardly a scientific study. So I may just be totally wrong about that. But could there be a botanical reason for purple, specifically, to be advantageous in burn zones? > > Just curious if anybody knows. > > -=Town Food > >> On 6/29/21 11:32 AM, David Hough reading PCT-L wrote: >> Generally speaking, when you hit burned areas in Q and R, >> you hit dense brush and >> many down logs - and abundant wildflowers. > _______________________________________________ > Pct-L mailing list > Pct-L at backcountry.net > To unsubscribe, or change options visit: > http://mailman.backcountry.net/mailman/listinfo/pct-l > > List Archives: > http://mailman.backcountry.net/pipermail/pct-l/ > All content is copyrighted by the respective authors. > Reproduction is prohibited without express permission. From marmotwestvanc at hotmail.com Tue Jun 29 20:24:03 2021 From: marmotwestvanc at hotmail.com (marmot marmot) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2021 01:24:03 +0000 Subject: [pct-l] Fires Message-ID: Once again on UTube videos I have seen hikers making fires. We are in a constant Wild Fire zone. This is the west coast. I realize that some of you hikers still are so new to long distance hiking that you make campfires for emotional comfort or some out dated idea of what is proper behavior on a trail. Unless you are in a health threatening situation a hiker in the west never makes a fire. One ember can start a fire miles away.Al it takes is a small wind to kindle that ember In the miles I?ve done ( 20,000 and counting ) I have never made a fire. But I have certainly put them out. Every trail I?ve been on there has been a smoldering fire that I have had to put out. I hope that some day I won?t have to say that. I hope that some day hikers will start the PCT knowing that to get warm you get into your tent/sleeping bag/ dry clothes, wring out your wet socks, put them under your sleeping pad so they don?t freeze and untie your shoelaces, put your shoes in a plastic bag or stuff sac and under your bag so they won?t freeze. You only make a fire if there is no other choice. Before you leave camp( even if it is before dawn) you must be able to put your hand into the fire without feeling any warmth. I wish you all the best. Please don?t burn down our forests Marmot Sent from my iPhone From JimLBanks at verizon.net Tue Jun 29 22:56:00 2021 From: JimLBanks at verizon.net (JimLBanks at verizon.net) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2021 20:56:00 -0700 Subject: [pct-l] Western Section R In-Reply-To: References: <000c01d76d2e$83fbcf00$8bf36d00$.ref@verizon.net>, <000c01d76d2e$83fbcf00$8bf36d00$@verizon.net> Message-ID: <000c01d76d63$d7d3c990$877b5cb0$@verizon.net> Marmot, the trail is open to anyone and my experience has been that the trail is probably one of the least racist and most welcoming places you could find. Sure there are always some jerks on the Facebook trail pages, but I think most of them are just trolls and not really hikers. Please read the blog post on the PCTA's website by Crystal Gail Welcome posted June 19, 2021. This is her opinion of the trail: "the parks and trails that people built are based on racist ideologies and practices. Meaning they are, at their core, institutional." To me this is just gibberish. How in the hell was the building of the PCT based on racist ideologies? If she feels that way I don't understand why she would want to hike on the trail. The worst part of the post was the PCTA's introduction saying that "we stand behind her and as a result, we will not allow commenting for this post on social media." I guess the PCTA's CEO thinks she has the power to trump the 1st Amendment. What are they afraid of, that someone will point out the fallacy of her comments? It also makes the PCTA look foolish when they say "we stand behind her" when she makes a comment that the trail was based on racist ideologies. The issue is why does an organization that was formed to maintain the trail have to spend precious resources on things not related to trail maintenance? If people want to promote the use of the trail by minorities, then they should form an organization whose stated purposes is to do just that. More power to them. The Articles of incorporation of the PCTA state that the purpose of the PCTA is "the maintenance, conservation, and safe public use of the PCT." Somehow, under the current administration, and without a vote of the members, the original language is no longer used, but rather has been replaced by the "Mission Statement" which provides that the mission of the PCTA is to "protect, preserve, and promote the PCT." You may think the change is trivial, but it is not. It completely drops the reference to trail maintenance and adds promote which allows for all kinds of various things depending on your interpretation. While it is true that some of the backlog of maintenance is due to the Covid-19 pandemic restricting trail work, it is really just a small part of the backlog. It has been building up for years because there are not enough volunteers to do the work. You probably are aware of this, but for those who are not, almost all of the maintenance on the trail is done by volunteers. Why is it that the PCTA has no employees that actually do trail maintenance? It has approximately 30 full time employees. The problem is that the entire model that the PCTA has for maintenance is flawed. They have full time employees for everything but maintenance but leave the maintenance, the thing the PCTA was formed to do, to volunteers. Now the volunteers do an absolutely fantastic job given the enormous job that it is and the relatively small number of us considering how long the trail is. Just to head off any comments about well why don't you get out there, I have been doing trail maintenance since 2008. I am one of the crew leaders for the Cajon Pass Chapter of the Trail Gorillas. In 2018 I was awarded the Extra Mile Award for "remarkable volunteer service." In 2020 I had the 4th highest number of hours of trail maintenance on the entire trail with 716 hours, and that was in a year that we were prevented from working for a good portion of the year. See PCT Communicator Spring 2021 edition, page 21. I have hundreds of hours so far this year. So I think I can speak about this with some authority. I welcome your statement that "this is a time to build the trail or contribute financially," (I assume that by build you mean maintenance). However it would take a 20 fold increase, maybe more, in the number of volunteers to get the job done and we just don't see it happening. There are a lot of old timers that have retired from trail maintenance recently and they are not being replaced. This is the reason for the overgrown trail in the Grider Creek area that David was talking about in the original post. The guy who use to organize projects in that area retired and no one replaced him. Your suggestion about running for the Board of the PCTA would be a good one, except that the system is rigged. Ever notice that each year when we vote for Directors the number of people nominated always exactly matches the number of vacancies? That is because it is the current board that does the nominations. It is a closed system. If the current board doesn't like your positions then you just never get nominated. The board is hand picked by Liz Bergeron the CEO. The By Laws only allow for one other way to get nominated. You have to circulate a petition and have at least 100 other members in good standing sign it. Now how many of us know 100 other members well enough to be able to communicate with them and send them an email or a letter. And even if you did get 100 signatures I can guaranty you that the current administration would undermine you. The current board, with maybe one exception, consists of people who are not trail maintainers, but rather, in my opinion, want to pump up their resumes. Instead of looking for and standing behind people who want to trash talk the trail, the PCTA should declare a maintenance emergency and devote all its resources to getting the maintenance level of the trail back to an acceptable standard. I-Beam -----Original Message----- From: marmot marmot Sent: Tuesday, June 29, 2021 5:08 PM To: JimLBanks at verizon.net Cc: pct-l at backcountry.net Subject: Re: [pct-l] Western Section R You?ve got to be kidding me. Since 1987, every time I was on any of the trails I wondered where the rest of the world went. No people of color. Virtually every hiker out there was northern Euro decent and the vast majority male. That has just barely started to change. We should be celebrating the change not complaining (with no back up figures and statistics) that money is being diverted from trail maintenance to so -called extraneous expenses. Each bit of education taught in a work place makes all us safer. It is not in any way unnecessary. I saw the change in my industry. I?m a painter in the Motion Picture Union so you can see what I mean. Understanding the issues makes all the difference in the world. I cheer every time I see the diversity of the hikers grow. I think it is magical. We have an over grown trail because of over a year of a challenging pandemic. It will take awhile to remedy. It?s hard in the meantime. It takes us all back in time when the trails weren?t finished and there were constant blow downs to crawl over. I walked through miles and miles of poison ivy and nettles that I had to beat back with my hiking stick on the AT in ?91. The PCT ,in ?94,luckily was finished but not very well maintained. I had ripped and repaired hiking clothing from the needles in the chaparral which covered hundreds of miles in southern Calif Of course the CDT in ?96 was just a southward ramble with map and compass hitting marked trail randomly about 1/3 of the way. I still feel lucky on each trail these days when the way is clear. I whine when they build stairs instead of switch backs. That?s just because I?m not a trail building expert and have to guess the reason for that is there might be a structural issue of which I am unaware. But,I still whine ? cause I hate stairs. I moan and complain every time I have to crawl over a downed tree. As my kid used to say when he was a teenager ? Oh Well !!? I hope everyone remembers what the reality of why the trail maintenance is behind. We need to avoid inappropriate transference from one practice( sensitivity training of all types that people often misunderstand and something that causes some people to be afraid) to a situation that has a different cause. We have all had to grow up and take a hard look at our preconceived ideas. This is a time to help build the trail or contribute to the PCTA financially. I?m sure there is a way to earmark a donation for trail maintenance only if you are worried. Ask the office. The other choice might be to run for the PCTA board. I spend 16 years on the ALDHAWEST board. I didn?t alway agree with the final decisions by the board but at least I had input. Show up at PCT days. Help. Volunteer Hope to see you all at the next ALDHAWEST ?in person? gathering or like I usually do?on some trail. I leave next week for my first long hike since this whole COVID mess started. Can?t get the grin off my face Marmot Sent from my iPhone > On Jun 29, 2021, at 2:34 PM, JimLBanks at verizon.net wrote: > > ?David, the trail conditions you describe are becoming more and more common > from one end of the trail to the other. The original purpose of the PCTA > was to maintain the trail. However, the PCTA has become an organization > more concerned with "social justice" and sponsoring a hiker who writes on > the PCTA blog that the trail itself was built "on racist ideologies and > practices." The PCTA gets almost $1 million a year from the US Forest > Service to maintain the trail, but spends its money on more and more staff > (none of which actually do trail maintenance as their job), fancy offices, > and racial sensitivity training for the staff. The trail maintenance > volunteers are out there busting their asses working on the trail, but there > are just not enough volunteers to get the job done, especially with all the > damage done to the trail in the last 10 years or so from so many huge > devasting fires. > > > > I-Beam > > _______________________________________________ > Pct-L mailing list > Pct-L at backcountry.net > To unsubscribe, or change options visit: > http://mailman.backcountry.net/mailman/listinfo/pct-l > > List Archives: > http://mailman.backcountry.net/pipermail/pct-l/ > All content is copyrighted by the respective authors. > Reproduction is prohibited without express permission. From marmotwestvanc at hotmail.com Wed Jun 30 01:53:37 2021 From: marmotwestvanc at hotmail.com (marmot marmot) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2021 06:53:37 +0000 Subject: [pct-l] Western Section R In-Reply-To: <000c01d76d63$d7d3c990$877b5cb0$@verizon.net> References: <000c01d76d2e$83fbcf00$8bf36d00$.ref@verizon.net>, <000c01d76d2e$83fbcf00$8bf36d00$@verizon.net> , <000c01d76d63$d7d3c990$877b5cb0$@verizon.net> Message-ID: Concerning the recent PCTA article: Because white predominantly male humans have made the decisions about the parks and trails ,I agree with being quiet and listening to people with a different experience tell what they have encountered out there. This is all just beginning. It?s is the time to pay attention. Trust that people who have a different life experience are telling the truth. Just as in the beginning at the Gatherings and ADZPCTKO ,when I ran woman?s hiking groups ,men were not allowed to attend. At those groups women felt comfortable talking about what really bothered them on the trail and what they were really concerned about. No one told them they should not feel that way. Then,over the years (when the women ,themselves ,asked for a change)men were allowed to listen but not speak. That is what was needed so that the new voices could be heard. Calling the trail the most welcoming place is your experience. It is not mine. Some people are welcoming. Just because I want changes is no reason to imagine that I would not want to hike the trails. Why would I ever question Crystal Gail Welcome?s desire to be out on trails and in nature? Just because she complains and wants a better experience does not mean she does not want to be out there. Other people?s prejudice and lack of awareness is their problem not hers. And she has the right to state the truth of her experience without being told she should not feel that way. For the first 20 years that I hiked long trails I never saw a non-northern euro face. Bizarre. Where did the world go? And there are my dear friends who are a lesbian couple who ,out of fear,were so careful to never allow anyone on the trail to know they were a couple. This is a reality. When people are systematically written out of history it?s time to ask questions and sit back and listen to the answers. Find out real history. Yes,things are starting to change but it?s slow and it?s new. Read the experiences of people ( there are some good recent books and articles)who had to endure mindless nasty racist comments in town, at camp, in shelters. They shouldn?t have to feel grateful that it wasn?t worse. Listen to the truth because if you have benefited from being the type of voice usually listened to, it is time now to be quiet. Calling what she said gibberish without asking her what she meant is at a minimum inappropriate. I want to know her references and what she is basing that statement on. For the most part I don?t need to ask because I already have seen it daily in my job and in my personal life. Just like I want to know the statistics you base your observations on concerning the lack maintenance. To me if the trail hasn?t been worked on in over a year it?s remarkable that it isn?t worse. In the East in my opinion the ATC should move every single trail crew to two or three states and clean up a dangerous mess. But then again I?m not privy to the whole picture and that could be a mistake. I?m willing to hear what the experts say about it. I?m guessing that when you walked out of town you didn?t worry that you might be followed( as one friend was) and have to hide so that your potential rapists could not find you. She listened to them discussing her and what they were going to do. Maybe town?s people followed you into the woods to assault you. Did that happen? Then if it did you have had the same experience that many women have had or are a understandably afraid of having. No one is disputing what you have given to the trail. Please do not dismiss other people?s experience. If now current trail hikers are able to hike without being assaulted by racism or assaulted physically then I am cheering. This is new. I ,for one, am going to wait, watch and listen. And hope And hike because it?s the best place to be. Marmot Sent from my iPhone > On Jun 29, 2021, at 8:56 PM, JimLBanks at verizon.net wrote: > > ?Marmot, the trail is open to anyone and my experience has been that the trail is probably one of the least racist and most welcoming places you could find. Sure there are always some jerks on the Facebook trail pages, but I think most of them are just trolls and not really hikers. Please read the blog post on the PCTA's website by Crystal Gail Welcome posted June 19, 2021. This is her opinion of the trail: "the parks and trails that people built are based on racist ideologies and practices. Meaning they are, at their core, institutional." To me this is just gibberish. How in the hell was the building of the PCT based on racist ideologies? If she feels that way I don't understand why she would want to hike on the trail. The worst part of the post was the PCTA's introduction saying that "we stand behind her and as a result, we will not allow commenting for this post on social media." I guess the PCTA's CEO thinks she has the power to trump the 1st Amendment. What are they afraid of, that someone will point out the fallacy of her comments? It also makes the PCTA look foolish when they say "we stand behind her" when she makes a comment that the trail was based on racist ideologies. > > The issue is why does an organization that was formed to maintain the trail have to spend precious resources on things not related to trail maintenance? If people want to promote the use of the trail by minorities, then they should form an organization whose stated purposes is to do just that. More power to them. The Articles of incorporation of the PCTA state that the purpose of the PCTA is "the maintenance, conservation, and safe public use of the PCT." Somehow, under the current administration, and without a vote of the members, the original language is no longer used, but rather has been replaced by the "Mission Statement" which provides that the mission of the PCTA is to "protect, preserve, and promote the PCT." You may think the change is trivial, but it is not. It completely drops the reference to trail maintenance and adds promote which allows for all kinds of various things depending on your interpretation. > > While it is true that some of the backlog of maintenance is due to the Covid-19 pandemic restricting trail work, it is really just a small part of the backlog. It has been building up for years because there are not enough volunteers to do the work. You probably are aware of this, but for those who are not, almost all of the maintenance on the trail is done by volunteers. Why is it that the PCTA has no employees that actually do trail maintenance? It has approximately 30 full time employees. The problem is that the entire model that the PCTA has for maintenance is flawed. They have full time employees for everything but maintenance but leave the maintenance, the thing the PCTA was formed to do, to volunteers. Now the volunteers do an absolutely fantastic job given the enormous job that it is and the relatively small number of us considering how long the trail is. Just to head off any comments about well why don't you get out there, I have been doing trail maintenance since 2008. I am one of the crew leaders for the Cajon Pass Chapter of the Trail Gorillas. In 2018 I was awarded the Extra Mile Award for "remarkable volunteer service." In 2020 I had the 4th highest number of hours of trail maintenance on the entire trail with 716 hours, and that was in a year that we were prevented from working for a good portion of the year. See PCT Communicator Spring 2021 edition, page 21. I have hundreds of hours so far this year. So I think I can speak about this with some authority. I welcome your statement that "this is a time to build the trail or contribute financially," (I assume that by build you mean maintenance). However it would take a 20 fold increase, maybe more, in the number of volunteers to get the job done and we just don't see it happening. There are a lot of old timers that have retired from trail maintenance recently and they are not being replaced. This is the reason for the overgrown trail in the Grider Creek area that David was talking about in the original post. The guy who use to organize projects in that area retired and no one replaced him. > > Your suggestion about running for the Board of the PCTA would be a good one, except that the system is rigged. Ever notice that each year when we vote for Directors the number of people nominated always exactly matches the number of vacancies? That is because it is the current board that does the nominations. It is a closed system. If the current board doesn't like your positions then you just never get nominated. The board is hand picked by Liz Bergeron the CEO. The By Laws only allow for one other way to get nominated. You have to circulate a petition and have at least 100 other members in good standing sign it. Now how many of us know 100 other members well enough to be able to communicate with them and send them an email or a letter. And even if you did get 100 signatures I can guaranty you that the current administration would undermine you. The current board, with maybe one exception, consists of people who are not trail maintainers, but rather, in my opinion, want to pump up their resumes. > > Instead of looking for and standing behind people who want to trash talk the trail, the PCTA should declare a maintenance emergency and devote all its resources to getting the maintenance level of the trail back to an acceptable standard. > > I-Beam > > -----Original Message----- > From: marmot marmot > Sent: Tuesday, June 29, 2021 5:08 PM > To: JimLBanks at verizon.net > Cc: pct-l at backcountry.net > Subject: Re: [pct-l] Western Section R > > You?ve got to be kidding me. Since 1987, every time I was on any of the trails I wondered where the rest of the world went. No people of color. Virtually every hiker out there was northern Euro decent and the vast majority male. That has just barely started to change. We should be celebrating the change not complaining (with no back up figures and statistics) that money is being diverted from trail maintenance to so -called extraneous expenses. Each bit of education taught in a work place makes all us safer. It is not in any way unnecessary. I saw the change in my industry. I?m a painter in the Motion Picture Union so you can see what I mean. Understanding the issues makes all the difference in the world. > I cheer every time I see the diversity of the hikers grow. I think it is magical. > > We have an over grown trail because of over a year of a challenging pandemic. It will take awhile to remedy. It?s hard in the meantime. It takes us all back in time when the trails weren?t finished and there were constant blow downs to crawl over. I walked through miles and miles of poison ivy and nettles that I had to beat back with my hiking stick on the AT in ?91. The PCT ,in ?94,luckily was finished but not very well maintained. I had ripped and repaired hiking clothing from the needles in the chaparral which covered hundreds of miles in southern Calif Of course the CDT in ?96 was just a southward ramble with map and compass hitting marked trail randomly about 1/3 of the way. I still feel lucky on each trail these days when the way is clear. I whine when they build stairs instead of switch backs. That?s just because I?m not a trail building expert and have to guess the reason for that is there might be a structural issue of which I am unaware. But,I still whine ? cause I hate stairs. I moan and complain every time I have to crawl over a downed tree. As my kid used to say when he was a teenager ? Oh Well !!? > I hope everyone remembers what the reality of why the trail maintenance is behind. We need to avoid inappropriate transference from one practice( sensitivity training of all types that people often misunderstand and something that causes some people to be afraid) to a situation that has a different cause. We have all had to grow up and take a hard look at our preconceived ideas. > This is a time to help build the trail or contribute to the PCTA financially. I?m sure there is a way to earmark a donation for trail maintenance only if you are worried. Ask the office. > The other choice might be to run for the PCTA board. I spend 16 years on the ALDHAWEST board. I didn?t alway agree with the final decisions by the board but at least I had input. Show up at PCT days. Help. Volunteer Hope to see you all at the next ALDHAWEST ?in person? gathering or like I usually do?on some trail. I leave next week for my first long hike since this whole COVID mess started. > Can?t get the grin off my face > Marmot > > > > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Jun 29, 2021, at 2:34 PM, JimLBanks at verizon.net wrote: >> >> ?David, the trail conditions you describe are becoming more and more common >> from one end of the trail to the other. The original purpose of the PCTA >> was to maintain the trail. However, the PCTA has become an organization >> more concerned with "social justice" and sponsoring a hiker who writes on >> the PCTA blog that the trail itself was built "on racist ideologies and >> practices." The PCTA gets almost $1 million a year from the US Forest >> Service to maintain the trail, but spends its money on more and more staff >> (none of which actually do trail maintenance as their job), fancy offices, >> and racial sensitivity training for the staff. The trail maintenance >> volunteers are out there busting their asses working on the trail, but there >> are just not enough volunteers to get the job done, especially with all the >> damage done to the trail in the last 10 years or so from so many huge >> devasting fires. >> >> >> >> I-Beam >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Pct-L mailing list >> Pct-L at backcountry.net >> To unsubscribe, or change options visit: >> http://mailman.backcountry.net/mailman/listinfo/pct-l >> >> List Archives: >> http://mailman.backcountry.net/pipermail/pct-l/ >> All content is copyrighted by the respective authors. >> Reproduction is prohibited without express permission. > From JimLBanks at verizon.net Wed Jun 30 12:20:35 2021 From: JimLBanks at verizon.net (JimLBanks at verizon.net) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2021 10:20:35 -0700 Subject: [pct-l] Western Section R In-Reply-To: References: <000c01d76d2e$83fbcf00$8bf36d00$.ref@verizon.net>, <000c01d76d2e$83fbcf00$8bf36d00$@verizon.net> , <000c01d76d63$d7d3c990$877b5cb0$@verizon.net> Message-ID: <000a01d76dd4$3dbc8ba0$b935a2e0$@verizon.net> Marmot, you express a great passion for what you are talking about, but I think your passion is not allowing you to see the point of my posts. You should take your own advice and listen. Let's assume that everything you say is accurate. What does it have to do with the PCTA? The PCTA was formed to do trail maintenance, not to correct perceived discrimination and certainly not to enforce laws. The PCTA has no enforcement authority, that is the role of the Forest Service and the local sheriffs along the trail. I am sick and tired of people hijacking organizations that were formed for a specific purpose and using them to address issues that they think are important but have nothing to do with the mission of the organizations. Like I said before, why don't you and the other people who feel that these issues you talk about need to be addressed form a 501(c)(3) entity whose stated purpose is to do that. Then you can go out and try to raise money and promote what you believe in. I believe in maintaining the PCT properly and I joined an organization whose stated purpose is to do just that, but whose current administration and Board think other things are more important. I-Beam -----Original Message----- From: marmot marmot Sent: Tuesday, June 29, 2021 11:54 PM To: JimLBanks at verizon.net Cc: pct-l at backcountry.net Subject: Re: [pct-l] Western Section R Concerning the recent PCTA article: Because white predominantly male humans have made the decisions about the parks and trails ,I agree with being quiet and listening to people with a different experience tell what they have encountered out there. This is all just beginning. It?s is the time to pay attention. Trust that people who have a different life experience are telling the truth. Just as in the beginning at the Gatherings and ADZPCTKO ,when I ran woman?s hiking groups ,men were not allowed to attend. At those groups women felt comfortable talking about what really bothered them on the trail and what they were really concerned about. No one told them they should not feel that way. Then,over the years (when the women ,themselves ,asked for a change)men were allowed to listen but not speak. That is what was needed so that the new voices could be heard. Calling the trail the most welcoming place is your experience. It is not mine. Some people are welcoming. Just because I want changes is no reason to imagine that I would not want to hike the trails. Why would I ever question Crystal Gail Welcome?s desire to be out on trails and in nature? Just because she complains and wants a better experience does not mean she does not want to be out there. Other people?s prejudice and lack of awareness is their problem not hers. And she has the right to state the truth of her experience without being told she should not feel that way. For the first 20 years that I hiked long trails I never saw a non-northern euro face. Bizarre. Where did the world go? And there are my dear friends who are a lesbian couple who ,out of fear,were so careful to never allow anyone on the trail to know they were a couple. This is a reality. When people are systematically written out of history it?s time to ask questions and sit back and listen to the answers. Find out real history. Yes,things are starting to change but it?s slow and it?s new. Read the experiences of people ( there are some good recent books and articles)who had to endure mindless nasty racist comments in town, at camp, in shelters. They shouldn?t have to feel grateful that it wasn?t worse. Listen to the truth because if you have benefited from being the type of voice usually listened to, it is time now to be quiet. Calling what she said gibberish without asking her what she meant is at a minimum inappropriate. I want to know her references and what she is basing that statement on. For the most part I don?t need to ask because I already have seen it daily in my job and in my personal life. Just like I want to know the statistics you base your observations on concerning the lack maintenance. To me if the trail hasn?t been worked on in over a year it?s remarkable that it isn?t worse. In the East in my opinion the ATC should move every single trail crew to two or three states and clean up a dangerous mess. But then again I?m not privy to the whole picture and that could be a mistake. I?m willing to hear what the experts say about it. I?m guessing that when you walked out of town you didn?t worry that you might be followed( as one friend was) and have to hide so that your potential rapists could not find you. She listened to them discussing her and what they were going to do. Maybe town?s people followed you into the woods to assault you. Did that happen? Then if it did you have had the same experience that many women have had or are a understandably afraid of having. No one is disputing what you have given to the trail. Please do not dismiss other people?s experience. If now current trail hikers are able to hike without being assaulted by racism or assaulted physically then I am cheering. This is new. I ,for one, am going to wait, watch and listen. And hope And hike because it?s the best place to be. Marmot Sent from my iPhone > On Jun 29, 2021, at 8:56 PM, JimLBanks at verizon.net wrote: > > ?Marmot, the trail is open to anyone and my experience has been that the trail is probably one of the least racist and most welcoming places you could find. Sure there are always some jerks on the Facebook trail pages, but I think most of them are just trolls and not really hikers. Please read the blog post on the PCTA's website by Crystal Gail Welcome posted June 19, 2021. This is her opinion of the trail: "the parks and trails that people built are based on racist ideologies and practices. Meaning they are, at their core, institutional." To me this is just gibberish. How in the hell was the building of the PCT based on racist ideologies? If she feels that way I don't understand why she would want to hike on the trail. The worst part of the post was the PCTA's introduction saying that "we stand behind her and as a result, we will not allow commenting for this post on social media." I guess the PCTA's CEO thinks she has the power to trump the 1st Amendment. What are they afraid of, that someone will point out the fallacy of her comments? It also makes the PCTA look foolish when they say "we stand behind her" when she makes a comment that the trail was based on racist ideologies. > > The issue is why does an organization that was formed to maintain the trail have to spend precious resources on things not related to trail maintenance? If people want to promote the use of the trail by minorities, then they should form an organization whose stated purposes is to do just that. More power to them. The Articles of incorporation of the PCTA state that the purpose of the PCTA is "the maintenance, conservation, and safe public use of the PCT." Somehow, under the current administration, and without a vote of the members, the original language is no longer used, but rather has been replaced by the "Mission Statement" which provides that the mission of the PCTA is to "protect, preserve, and promote the PCT." You may think the change is trivial, but it is not. It completely drops the reference to trail maintenance and adds promote which allows for all kinds of various things depending on your interpretation. > > While it is true that some of the backlog of maintenance is due to the Covid-19 pandemic restricting trail work, it is really just a small part of the backlog. It has been building up for years because there are not enough volunteers to do the work. You probably are aware of this, but for those who are not, almost all of the maintenance on the trail is done by volunteers. Why is it that the PCTA has no employees that actually do trail maintenance? It has approximately 30 full time employees. The problem is that the entire model that the PCTA has for maintenance is flawed. They have full time employees for everything but maintenance but leave the maintenance, the thing the PCTA was formed to do, to volunteers. Now the volunteers do an absolutely fantastic job given the enormous job that it is and the relatively small number of us considering how long the trail is. Just to head off any comments about well why don't you get out there, I have been doing trail maintenance since 2008. I am one of the crew leaders for the Cajon Pass Chapter of the Trail Gorillas. In 2018 I was awarded the Extra Mile Award for "remarkable volunteer service." In 2020 I had the 4th highest number of hours of trail maintenance on the entire trail with 716 hours, and that was in a year that we were prevented from working for a good portion of the year. See PCT Communicator Spring 2021 edition, page 21. I have hundreds of hours so far this year. So I think I can speak about this with some authority. I welcome your statement that "this is a time to build the trail or contribute financially," (I assume that by build you mean maintenance). However it would take a 20 fold increase, maybe more, in the number of volunteers to get the job done and we just don't see it happening. There are a lot of old timers that have retired from trail maintenance recently and they are not being replaced. This is the reason for the overgrown trail in the Grider Creek area that David was talking about in the original post. The guy who use to organize projects in that area retired and no one replaced him. > > Your suggestion about running for the Board of the PCTA would be a good one, except that the system is rigged. Ever notice that each year when we vote for Directors the number of people nominated always exactly matches the number of vacancies? That is because it is the current board that does the nominations. It is a closed system. If the current board doesn't like your positions then you just never get nominated. The board is hand picked by Liz Bergeron the CEO. The By Laws only allow for one other way to get nominated. You have to circulate a petition and have at least 100 other members in good standing sign it. Now how many of us know 100 other members well enough to be able to communicate with them and send them an email or a letter. And even if you did get 100 signatures I can guaranty you that the current administration would undermine you. The current board, with maybe one exception, consists of people who are not trail maintainers, but rather, in my opinion, want to pump up their resumes. > > Instead of looking for and standing behind people who want to trash talk the trail, the PCTA should declare a maintenance emergency and devote all its resources to getting the maintenance level of the trail back to an acceptable standard. > > I-Beam > > -----Original Message----- > From: marmot marmot > Sent: Tuesday, June 29, 2021 5:08 PM > To: JimLBanks at verizon.net > Cc: pct-l at backcountry.net > Subject: Re: [pct-l] Western Section R > > You?ve got to be kidding me. Since 1987, every time I was on any of the trails I wondered where the rest of the world went. No people of color. Virtually every hiker out there was northern Euro decent and the vast majority male. That has just barely started to change. We should be celebrating the change not complaining (with no back up figures and statistics) that money is being diverted from trail maintenance to so -called extraneous expenses. Each bit of education taught in a work place makes all us safer. It is not in any way unnecessary. I saw the change in my industry. I?m a painter in the Motion Picture Union so you can see what I mean. Understanding the issues makes all the difference in the world. > I cheer every time I see the diversity of the hikers grow. I think it is magical. > > We have an over grown trail because of over a year of a challenging pandemic. It will take awhile to remedy. It?s hard in the meantime. It takes us all back in time when the trails weren?t finished and there were constant blow downs to crawl over. I walked through miles and miles of poison ivy and nettles that I had to beat back with my hiking stick on the AT in ?91. The PCT ,in ?94,luckily was finished but not very well maintained. I had ripped and repaired hiking clothing from the needles in the chaparral which covered hundreds of miles in southern Calif Of course the CDT in ?96 was just a southward ramble with map and compass hitting marked trail randomly about 1/3 of the way. I still feel lucky on each trail these days when the way is clear. I whine when they build stairs instead of switch backs. That?s just because I?m not a trail building expert and have to guess the reason for that is there might be a structural issue of which I am unaware. But,I still whine ? cause I hate stairs. I moan and complain every time I have to crawl over a downed tree. As my kid used to say when he was a teenager ? Oh Well !!? > I hope everyone remembers what the reality of why the trail maintenance is behind. We need to avoid inappropriate transference from one practice( sensitivity training of all types that people often misunderstand and something that causes some people to be afraid) to a situation that has a different cause. We have all had to grow up and take a hard look at our preconceived ideas. > This is a time to help build the trail or contribute to the PCTA financially. I?m sure there is a way to earmark a donation for trail maintenance only if you are worried. Ask the office. > The other choice might be to run for the PCTA board. I spend 16 years on the ALDHAWEST board. I didn?t alway agree with the final decisions by the board but at least I had input. Show up at PCT days. Help. Volunteer Hope to see you all at the next ALDHAWEST ?in person? gathering or like I usually do?on some trail. I leave next week for my first long hike since this whole COVID mess started. > Can?t get the grin off my face > Marmot > > > > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Jun 29, 2021, at 2:34 PM, JimLBanks at verizon.net wrote: >> >> ?David, the trail conditions you describe are becoming more and more >> common from one end of the trail to the other. The original purpose >> of the PCTA was to maintain the trail. However, the PCTA has become >> an organization more concerned with "social justice" and sponsoring a >> hiker who writes on the PCTA blog that the trail itself was built "on >> racist ideologies and practices." The PCTA gets almost $1 million a >> year from the US Forest Service to maintain the trail, but spends its >> money on more and more staff (none of which actually do trail >> maintenance as their job), fancy offices, and racial sensitivity >> training for the staff. The trail maintenance volunteers are out >> there busting their asses working on the trail, but there are just >> not enough volunteers to get the job done, especially with all the >> damage done to the trail in the last 10 years or so from so many huge devasting fires. >> >> >> >> I-Beam >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Pct-L mailing list >> Pct-L at backcountry.net >> To unsubscribe, or change options visit: >> http://mailman.backcountry.net/mailman/listinfo/pct-l >> >> List Archives: >> http://mailman.backcountry.net/pipermail/pct-l/ >> All content is copyrighted by the respective authors. >> Reproduction is prohibited without express permission. > From marmotwestvanc at hotmail.com Wed Jun 30 15:45:49 2021 From: marmotwestvanc at hotmail.com (marmot marmot) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2021 20:45:49 +0000 Subject: [pct-l] Western Section R In-Reply-To: <000a01d76dd4$3dbc8ba0$b935a2e0$@verizon.net> References: <000c01d76d2e$83fbcf00$8bf36d00$.ref@verizon.net>, <000c01d76d2e$83fbcf00$8bf36d00$@verizon.net> , <000c01d76d63$d7d3c990$877b5cb0$@verizon.net> , <000a01d76dd4$3dbc8ba0$b935a2e0$@verizon.net> Message-ID: I get what you are saying. I simply disagree. Just as addressing the way people hiked the trail -the drunks and so called party-ers ?got taken out of the realm of ?hike your own hike ?when there were so many drunk and stupid hikers that they threatened to destroy the welcome that towns traditionally gave us. It became a problem for all the trail organizations to address. ALDHA has its ?finish well? out reach. In ALDHAWEST we voted in a more inclusive board specifically because we wanted all these issues addressed. Awareness changes what is needed. There have been separate organizations formed. They still exist. I want the existing larger organizations to be inclusive. Thank you again for all your work in maintaining the trail. If you ran for the board I would vote for you. Your knowledge is important Marmot Sent from my iPhone > On Jun 30, 2021, at 10:20 AM, JimLBanks at verizon.net wrote: > > ?Marmot, you express a great passion for what you are talking about, but I think your passion is not allowing you to see the point of my posts. You should take your own advice and listen. Let's assume that everything you say is accurate. What does it have to do with the PCTA? The PCTA was formed to do trail maintenance, not to correct perceived discrimination and certainly not to enforce laws. The PCTA has no enforcement authority, that is the role of the Forest Service and the local sheriffs along the trail. I am sick and tired of people hijacking organizations that were formed for a specific purpose and using them to address issues that they think are important but have nothing to do with the mission of the organizations. Like I said before, why don't you and the other people who feel that these issues you talk about need to be addressed form a 501(c)(3) entity whose stated purpose is to do that. Then you can go out and try to raise money and promote what you believe in. I believe in maintaining the PCT properly and I joined an organization whose stated purpose is to do just that, but whose current administration and Board think other things are more important. > > I-Beam > > -----Original Message----- > From: marmot marmot > Sent: Tuesday, June 29, 2021 11:54 PM > To: JimLBanks at verizon.net > Cc: pct-l at backcountry.net > Subject: Re: [pct-l] Western Section R > > Concerning the recent PCTA article: > Because white predominantly male humans have made the decisions about the parks and trails ,I agree with being quiet and listening to people with a different experience tell what they have encountered out there. This is all just beginning. It?s is the time to pay attention. Trust that people who have a different life experience are telling the truth. Just as in the beginning at the Gatherings and ADZPCTKO ,when I ran woman?s hiking groups ,men were not allowed to attend. At those groups women felt comfortable talking about what really bothered them on the trail and what they were really concerned about. No one told them they should not feel that way. Then,over the years (when the women ,themselves ,asked for a change)men were allowed to listen but not speak. That is what was needed so that the new voices could be heard. Calling the trail the most welcoming place is your experience. It is not mine. Some people are welcoming. Just because I want changes is no reason to imagine that I would not want to hike the trails. Why would I ever question Crystal Gail Welcome?s desire to be out on trails and in nature? Just because she complains and wants a better experience does not mean she does not want to be out there. Other people?s prejudice and lack of awareness is their problem not hers. And she has the right to state the truth of her experience without being told she should not feel that way. For the first 20 years that I hiked long trails I never saw a non-northern euro face. Bizarre. Where did the world go? And there are my dear friends who are a lesbian couple who ,out of fear,were so careful to never allow anyone on the trail to know they were a couple. This is a reality. When people are systematically written out of history it?s time to ask questions and sit back and listen to the answers. Find out real history. Yes,things are starting to change but it?s slow and it?s new. > Read the experiences of people ( there are some good recent books and articles)who had to endure mindless nasty racist comments in town, at camp, in shelters. They shouldn?t have to feel grateful that it wasn?t worse. Listen to the truth because if you have benefited from being the type of voice usually listened to, it is time now to be quiet. Calling what she said gibberish without asking her what she meant is at a minimum inappropriate. I want to know her references and what she is basing that statement on. For the most part I don?t need to ask because I already have seen it daily in my job and in my personal life. Just like I want to know the statistics you base your observations on concerning the lack maintenance. To me if the trail hasn?t been worked on in over a year it?s remarkable that it isn?t worse. In the East in my opinion the ATC should move every single trail crew to two or three states and clean up a dangerous mess. But then again I?m not privy to the whole picture and that could be a mistake. I?m willing to hear what the experts say about it. > I?m guessing that when you walked out of town you didn?t worry that you might be followed( as one friend was) and have to hide so that your potential rapists could not find you. She listened to them discussing her and what they were going to do. Maybe town?s people followed you into the woods to assault you. Did that happen? Then if it did you have had the same experience that many women have had or are a understandably afraid of having. > No one is disputing what you have given to the trail. Please do not dismiss other people?s experience. > If now current trail hikers are able to hike without being assaulted by racism or assaulted physically then I am cheering. This is new. I ,for one, am going to wait, watch and listen. And hope And hike because it?s the best place to be. > Marmot > > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Jun 29, 2021, at 8:56 PM, JimLBanks at verizon.net wrote: >> >> ?Marmot, the trail is open to anyone and my experience has been that the trail is probably one of the least racist and most welcoming places you could find. Sure there are always some jerks on the Facebook trail pages, but I think most of them are just trolls and not really hikers. Please read the blog post on the PCTA's website by Crystal Gail Welcome posted June 19, 2021. This is her opinion of the trail: "the parks and trails that people built are based on racist ideologies and practices. Meaning they are, at their core, institutional." To me this is just gibberish. How in the hell was the building of the PCT based on racist ideologies? If she feels that way I don't understand why she would want to hike on the trail. The worst part of the post was the PCTA's introduction saying that "we stand behind her and as a result, we will not allow commenting for this post on social media." I guess the PCTA's CEO thinks she has the power to trump the 1st Amendment. What are they afraid of, that someone will point out the fallacy of her comments? It also makes the PCTA look foolish when they say "we stand behind her" when she makes a comment that the trail was based on racist ideologies. >> >> The issue is why does an organization that was formed to maintain the trail have to spend precious resources on things not related to trail maintenance? If people want to promote the use of the trail by minorities, then they should form an organization whose stated purposes is to do just that. More power to them. The Articles of incorporation of the PCTA state that the purpose of the PCTA is "the maintenance, conservation, and safe public use of the PCT." Somehow, under the current administration, and without a vote of the members, the original language is no longer used, but rather has been replaced by the "Mission Statement" which provides that the mission of the PCTA is to "protect, preserve, and promote the PCT." You may think the change is trivial, but it is not. It completely drops the reference to trail maintenance and adds promote which allows for all kinds of various things depending on your interpretation. >> >> While it is true that some of the backlog of maintenance is due to the Covid-19 pandemic restricting trail work, it is really just a small part of the backlog. It has been building up for years because there are not enough volunteers to do the work. You probably are aware of this, but for those who are not, almost all of the maintenance on the trail is done by volunteers. Why is it that the PCTA has no employees that actually do trail maintenance? It has approximately 30 full time employees. The problem is that the entire model that the PCTA has for maintenance is flawed. They have full time employees for everything but maintenance but leave the maintenance, the thing the PCTA was formed to do, to volunteers. Now the volunteers do an absolutely fantastic job given the enormous job that it is and the relatively small number of us considering how long the trail is. Just to head off any comments about well why don't you get out there, I have been doing trail maintenance since 2008. I am one of the crew leaders for the Cajon Pass Chapter of the Trail Gorillas. In 2018 I was awarded the Extra Mile Award for "remarkable volunteer service." In 2020 I had the 4th highest number of hours of trail maintenance on the entire trail with 716 hours, and that was in a year that we were prevented from working for a good portion of the year. See PCT Communicator Spring 2021 edition, page 21. I have hundreds of hours so far this year. So I think I can speak about this with some authority. I welcome your statement that "this is a time to build the trail or contribute financially," (I assume that by build you mean maintenance). However it would take a 20 fold increase, maybe more, in the number of volunteers to get the job done and we just don't see it happening. There are a lot of old timers that have retired from trail maintenance recently and they are not being replaced. This is the reason for the overgrown trail in the Grider Creek area that David was talking about in the original post. The guy who use to organize projects in that area retired and no one replaced him. >> >> Your suggestion about running for the Board of the PCTA would be a good one, except that the system is rigged. Ever notice that each year when we vote for Directors the number of people nominated always exactly matches the number of vacancies? That is because it is the current board that does the nominations. It is a closed system. If the current board doesn't like your positions then you just never get nominated. The board is hand picked by Liz Bergeron the CEO. The By Laws only allow for one other way to get nominated. You have to circulate a petition and have at least 100 other members in good standing sign it. Now how many of us know 100 other members well enough to be able to communicate with them and send them an email or a letter. And even if you did get 100 signatures I can guaranty you that the current administration would undermine you. The current board, with maybe one exception, consists of people who are not trail maintainers, but rather, in my opinion, want to pump up their resumes. >> >> Instead of looking for and standing behind people who want to trash talk the trail, the PCTA should declare a maintenance emergency and devote all its resources to getting the maintenance level of the trail back to an acceptable standard. >> >> I-Beam >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: marmot marmot >> Sent: Tuesday, June 29, 2021 5:08 PM >> To: JimLBanks at verizon.net >> Cc: pct-l at backcountry.net >> Subject: Re: [pct-l] Western Section R >> >> You?ve got to be kidding me. Since 1987, every time I was on any of the trails I wondered where the rest of the world went. No people of color. Virtually every hiker out there was northern Euro decent and the vast majority male. That has just barely started to change. We should be celebrating the change not complaining (with no back up figures and statistics) that money is being diverted from trail maintenance to so -called extraneous expenses. Each bit of education taught in a work place makes all us safer. It is not in any way unnecessary. I saw the change in my industry. I?m a painter in the Motion Picture Union so you can see what I mean. Understanding the issues makes all the difference in the world. >> I cheer every time I see the diversity of the hikers grow. I think it is magical. >> >> We have an over grown trail because of over a year of a challenging pandemic. It will take awhile to remedy. It?s hard in the meantime. It takes us all back in time when the trails weren?t finished and there were constant blow downs to crawl over. I walked through miles and miles of poison ivy and nettles that I had to beat back with my hiking stick on the AT in ?91. The PCT ,in ?94,luckily was finished but not very well maintained. I had ripped and repaired hiking clothing from the needles in the chaparral which covered hundreds of miles in southern Calif Of course the CDT in ?96 was just a southward ramble with map and compass hitting marked trail randomly about 1/3 of the way. I still feel lucky on each trail these days when the way is clear. I whine when they build stairs instead of switch backs. That?s just because I?m not a trail building expert and have to guess the reason for that is there might be a structural issue of which I am unaware. But,I still whine ? cause I hate stairs. I moan and complain every time I have to crawl over a downed tree. As my kid used to say when he was a teenager ? Oh Well !!? >> I hope everyone remembers what the reality of why the trail maintenance is behind. We need to avoid inappropriate transference from one practice( sensitivity training of all types that people often misunderstand and something that causes some people to be afraid) to a situation that has a different cause. We have all had to grow up and take a hard look at our preconceived ideas. >> This is a time to help build the trail or contribute to the PCTA financially. I?m sure there is a way to earmark a donation for trail maintenance only if you are worried. Ask the office. >> The other choice might be to run for the PCTA board. I spend 16 years on the ALDHAWEST board. I didn?t alway agree with the final decisions by the board but at least I had input. Show up at PCT days. Help. Volunteer Hope to see you all at the next ALDHAWEST ?in person? gathering or like I usually do?on some trail. I leave next week for my first long hike since this whole COVID mess started. >> Can?t get the grin off my face >> Marmot >> >> >> >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >>>> On Jun 29, 2021, at 2:34 PM, JimLBanks at verizon.net wrote: >>> >>> ?David, the trail conditions you describe are becoming more and more >>> common from one end of the trail to the other. The original purpose >>> of the PCTA was to maintain the trail. However, the PCTA has become >>> an organization more concerned with "social justice" and sponsoring a >>> hiker who writes on the PCTA blog that the trail itself was built "on >>> racist ideologies and practices." The PCTA gets almost $1 million a >>> year from the US Forest Service to maintain the trail, but spends its >>> money on more and more staff (none of which actually do trail >>> maintenance as their job), fancy offices, and racial sensitivity >>> training for the staff. The trail maintenance volunteers are out >>> there busting their asses working on the trail, but there are just >>> not enough volunteers to get the job done, especially with all the >>> damage done to the trail in the last 10 years or so from so many huge devasting fires. >>> >>> >>> >>> I-Beam >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Pct-L mailing list >>> Pct-L at backcountry.net >>> To unsubscribe, or change options visit: >>> http://mailman.backcountry.net/mailman/listinfo/pct-l >>> >>> List Archives: >>> http://mailman.backcountry.net/pipermail/pct-l/ >>> All content is copyrighted by the respective authors. >>> Reproduction is prohibited without express permission. >> > From JimLBanks at verizon.net Wed Jun 30 18:20:54 2021 From: JimLBanks at verizon.net (JimLBanks at verizon.net) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2021 16:20:54 -0700 Subject: [pct-l] Western Section R In-Reply-To: References: <000c01d76d2e$83fbcf00$8bf36d00$.ref@verizon.net>, <000c01d76d2e$83fbcf00$8bf36d00$@verizon.net> , <000c01d76d63$d7d3c990$877b5cb0$@verizon.net> , <000a01d76dd4$3dbc8ba0$b935a2e0$@verizon.net> Message-ID: <000601d76e06$94cef810$be6ce830$@verizon.net> Marmot, I checked the web page of ALDHA- West to see what it's stated purpose is. The stated purpose is as follows: "To inspire, educate, and promote fellowship among long-distance hikers and those who support long-distance hiking." So there you go, it is the perfect place for you and others that are concerned about your issues to address them. Also, just an observation that I had after looking at the bios of the Board of Directors. All of them seem to have done an extensive amount of hiking, but not a single mention of anyone doing trail maintenance. Maybe they have and just didn't mention it. I-Beam -----Original Message----- From: marmot marmot Sent: Wednesday, June 30, 2021 1:46 PM To: JimLBanks at verizon.net Cc: pct-l at backcountry.net Subject: Re: [pct-l] Western Section R I get what you are saying. I simply disagree. Just as addressing the way people hiked the trail -the drunks and so called party-ers ?got taken out of the realm of ?hike your own hike ?when there were so many drunk and stupid hikers that they threatened to destroy the welcome that towns traditionally gave us. It became a problem for all the trail organizations to address. ALDHA has its ?finish well? out reach. In ALDHAWEST we voted in a more inclusive board specifically because we wanted all these issues addressed. Awareness changes what is needed. There have been separate organizations formed. They still exist. I want the existing larger organizations to be inclusive. Thank you again for all your work in maintaining the trail. If you ran for the board I would vote for you. Your knowledge is important Marmot Sent from my iPhone > On Jun 30, 2021, at 10:20 AM, JimLBanks at verizon.net wrote: > > ?Marmot, you express a great passion for what you are talking about, but I think your passion is not allowing you to see the point of my posts. You should take your own advice and listen. Let's assume that everything you say is accurate. What does it have to do with the PCTA? The PCTA was formed to do trail maintenance, not to correct perceived discrimination and certainly not to enforce laws. The PCTA has no enforcement authority, that is the role of the Forest Service and the local sheriffs along the trail. I am sick and tired of people hijacking organizations that were formed for a specific purpose and using them to address issues that they think are important but have nothing to do with the mission of the organizations. Like I said before, why don't you and the other people who feel that these issues you talk about need to be addressed form a 501(c)(3) entity whose stated purpose is to do that. Then you can go out and try to raise money and promote what you believe in. I believe in maintaining the PCT properly and I joined an organization whose stated purpose is to do just that, but whose current administration and Board think other things are more important. > > I-Beam > > -----Original Message----- > From: marmot marmot > Sent: Tuesday, June 29, 2021 11:54 PM > To: JimLBanks at verizon.net > Cc: pct-l at backcountry.net > Subject: Re: [pct-l] Western Section R > > Concerning the recent PCTA article: > Because white predominantly male humans have made the decisions about the parks and trails ,I agree with being quiet and listening to people with a different experience tell what they have encountered out there. This is all just beginning. It?s is the time to pay attention. Trust that people who have a different life experience are telling the truth. Just as in the beginning at the Gatherings and ADZPCTKO ,when I ran woman?s hiking groups ,men were not allowed to attend. At those groups women felt comfortable talking about what really bothered them on the trail and what they were really concerned about. No one told them they should not feel that way. Then,over the years (when the women ,themselves ,asked for a change)men were allowed to listen but not speak. That is what was needed so that the new voices could be heard. Calling the trail the most welcoming place is your experience. It is not mine. Some people are welcoming. Just because I want changes is no reason to imagine that I would not want to hike the trails. Why would I ever question Crystal Gail Welcome?s desire to be out on trails and in nature? Just because she complains and wants a better experience does not mean she does not want to be out there. Other people?s prejudice and lack of awareness is their problem not hers. And she has the right to state the truth of her experience without being told she should not feel that way. For the first 20 years that I hiked long trails I never saw a non-northern euro face. Bizarre. Where did the world go? And there are my dear friends who are a lesbian couple who ,out of fear,were so careful to never allow anyone on the trail to know they were a couple. This is a reality. When people are systematically written out of history it?s time to ask questions and sit back and listen to the answers. Find out real history. Yes,things are starting to change but it?s slow and it?s new. > Read the experiences of people ( there are some good recent books and articles)who had to endure mindless nasty racist comments in town, at camp, in shelters. They shouldn?t have to feel grateful that it wasn?t worse. Listen to the truth because if you have benefited from being the type of voice usually listened to, it is time now to be quiet. Calling what she said gibberish without asking her what she meant is at a minimum inappropriate. I want to know her references and what she is basing that statement on. For the most part I don?t need to ask because I already have seen it daily in my job and in my personal life. Just like I want to know the statistics you base your observations on concerning the lack maintenance. To me if the trail hasn?t been worked on in over a year it?s remarkable that it isn?t worse. In the East in my opinion the ATC should move every single trail crew to two or three states and clean up a dangerous mess. But then again I?m not privy to the whole picture and that could be a mistake. I?m willing to hear what the experts say about it. > I?m guessing that when you walked out of town you didn?t worry that you might be followed( as one friend was) and have to hide so that your potential rapists could not find you. She listened to them discussing her and what they were going to do. Maybe town?s people followed you into the woods to assault you. Did that happen? Then if it did you have had the same experience that many women have had or are a understandably afraid of having. > No one is disputing what you have given to the trail. Please do not dismiss other people?s experience. > If now current trail hikers are able to hike without being assaulted by racism or assaulted physically then I am cheering. This is new. I ,for one, am going to wait, watch and listen. And hope And hike because it?s the best place to be. > Marmot > > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Jun 29, 2021, at 8:56 PM, JimLBanks at verizon.net wrote: >> >> ?Marmot, the trail is open to anyone and my experience has been that the trail is probably one of the least racist and most welcoming places you could find. Sure there are always some jerks on the Facebook trail pages, but I think most of them are just trolls and not really hikers. Please read the blog post on the PCTA's website by Crystal Gail Welcome posted June 19, 2021. This is her opinion of the trail: "the parks and trails that people built are based on racist ideologies and practices. Meaning they are, at their core, institutional." To me this is just gibberish. How in the hell was the building of the PCT based on racist ideologies? If she feels that way I don't understand why she would want to hike on the trail. The worst part of the post was the PCTA's introduction saying that "we stand behind her and as a result, we will not allow commenting for this post on social media." I guess the PCTA's CEO thinks she has the power to trump the 1st Amendment. What are they afraid of, that someone will point out the fallacy of her comments? It also makes the PCTA look foolish when they say "we stand behind her" when she makes a comment that the trail was based on racist ideologies. >> >> The issue is why does an organization that was formed to maintain the trail have to spend precious resources on things not related to trail maintenance? If people want to promote the use of the trail by minorities, then they should form an organization whose stated purposes is to do just that. More power to them. The Articles of incorporation of the PCTA state that the purpose of the PCTA is "the maintenance, conservation, and safe public use of the PCT." Somehow, under the current administration, and without a vote of the members, the original language is no longer used, but rather has been replaced by the "Mission Statement" which provides that the mission of the PCTA is to "protect, preserve, and promote the PCT." You may think the change is trivial, but it is not. It completely drops the reference to trail maintenance and adds promote which allows for all kinds of various things depending on your interpretation. >> >> While it is true that some of the backlog of maintenance is due to the Covid-19 pandemic restricting trail work, it is really just a small part of the backlog. It has been building up for years because there are not enough volunteers to do the work. You probably are aware of this, but for those who are not, almost all of the maintenance on the trail is done by volunteers. Why is it that the PCTA has no employees that actually do trail maintenance? It has approximately 30 full time employees. The problem is that the entire model that the PCTA has for maintenance is flawed. They have full time employees for everything but maintenance but leave the maintenance, the thing the PCTA was formed to do, to volunteers. Now the volunteers do an absolutely fantastic job given the enormous job that it is and the relatively small number of us considering how long the trail is. Just to head off any comments about well why don't you get out there, I have been doing trail maintenance since 2008. I am one of the crew leaders for the Cajon Pass Chapter of the Trail Gorillas. In 2018 I was awarded the Extra Mile Award for "remarkable volunteer service." In 2020 I had the 4th highest number of hours of trail maintenance on the entire trail with 716 hours, and that was in a year that we were prevented from working for a good portion of the year. See PCT Communicator Spring 2021 edition, page 21. I have hundreds of hours so far this year. So I think I can speak about this with some authority. I welcome your statement that "this is a time to build the trail or contribute financially," (I assume that by build you mean maintenance). However it would take a 20 fold increase, maybe more, in the number of volunteers to get the job done and we just don't see it happening. There are a lot of old timers that have retired from trail maintenance recently and they are not being replaced. This is the reason for the overgrown trail in the Grider Creek area that David was talking about in the original post. The guy who use to organize projects in that area retired and no one replaced him. >> >> Your suggestion about running for the Board of the PCTA would be a good one, except that the system is rigged. Ever notice that each year when we vote for Directors the number of people nominated always exactly matches the number of vacancies? That is because it is the current board that does the nominations. It is a closed system. If the current board doesn't like your positions then you just never get nominated. The board is hand picked by Liz Bergeron the CEO. The By Laws only allow for one other way to get nominated. You have to circulate a petition and have at least 100 other members in good standing sign it. Now how many of us know 100 other members well enough to be able to communicate with them and send them an email or a letter. And even if you did get 100 signatures I can guaranty you that the current administration would undermine you. The current board, with maybe one exception, consists of people who are not trail maintainers, but rather, in my opinion, want to pump up their resumes. >> >> Instead of looking for and standing behind people who want to trash talk the trail, the PCTA should declare a maintenance emergency and devote all its resources to getting the maintenance level of the trail back to an acceptable standard. >> >> I-Beam >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: marmot marmot >> Sent: Tuesday, June 29, 2021 5:08 PM >> To: JimLBanks at verizon.net >> Cc: pct-l at backcountry.net >> Subject: Re: [pct-l] Western Section R >> >> You?ve got to be kidding me. Since 1987, every time I was on any of the trails I wondered where the rest of the world went. No people of color. Virtually every hiker out there was northern Euro decent and the vast majority male. That has just barely started to change. We should be celebrating the change not complaining (with no back up figures and statistics) that money is being diverted from trail maintenance to so -called extraneous expenses. Each bit of education taught in a work place makes all us safer. It is not in any way unnecessary. I saw the change in my industry. I?m a painter in the Motion Picture Union so you can see what I mean. Understanding the issues makes all the difference in the world. >> I cheer every time I see the diversity of the hikers grow. I think it is magical. >> >> We have an over grown trail because of over a year of a challenging pandemic. It will take awhile to remedy. It?s hard in the meantime. It takes us all back in time when the trails weren?t finished and there were constant blow downs to crawl over. I walked through miles and miles of poison ivy and nettles that I had to beat back with my hiking stick on the AT in ?91. The PCT ,in ?94,luckily was finished but not very well maintained. I had ripped and repaired hiking clothing from the needles in the chaparral which covered hundreds of miles in southern Calif Of course the CDT in ?96 was just a southward ramble with map and compass hitting marked trail randomly about 1/3 of the way. I still feel lucky on each trail these days when the way is clear. I whine when they build stairs instead of switch backs. That?s just because I?m not a trail building expert and have to guess the reason for that is there might be a structural issue of which I am unaware. But,I still whine ? cause I hate stairs. I moan and complain every time I have to crawl over a downed tree. As my kid used to say when he was a teenager ? Oh Well !!? >> I hope everyone remembers what the reality of why the trail maintenance is behind. We need to avoid inappropriate transference from one practice( sensitivity training of all types that people often misunderstand and something that causes some people to be afraid) to a situation that has a different cause. We have all had to grow up and take a hard look at our preconceived ideas. >> This is a time to help build the trail or contribute to the PCTA financially. I?m sure there is a way to earmark a donation for trail maintenance only if you are worried. Ask the office. >> The other choice might be to run for the PCTA board. I spend 16 years on the ALDHAWEST board. I didn?t alway agree with the final decisions by the board but at least I had input. Show up at PCT days. Help. Volunteer Hope to see you all at the next ALDHAWEST ?in person? gathering or like I usually do?on some trail. I leave next week for my first long hike since this whole COVID mess started. >> Can?t get the grin off my face >> Marmot >> >> >> >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >>>> On Jun 29, 2021, at 2:34 PM, JimLBanks at verizon.net wrote: >>> >>> ?David, the trail conditions you describe are becoming more and more >>> common from one end of the trail to the other. The original purpose >>> of the PCTA was to maintain the trail. However, the PCTA has become >>> an organization more concerned with "social justice" and sponsoring a >>> hiker who writes on the PCTA blog that the trail itself was built "on >>> racist ideologies and practices." The PCTA gets almost $1 million a >>> year from the US Forest Service to maintain the trail, but spends its >>> money on more and more staff (none of which actually do trail >>> maintenance as their job), fancy offices, and racial sensitivity >>> training for the staff. The trail maintenance volunteers are out >>> there busting their asses working on the trail, but there are just >>> not enough volunteers to get the job done, especially with all the >>> damage done to the trail in the last 10 years or so from so many huge devasting fires. >>> >>> >>> >>> I-Beam >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Pct-L mailing list >>> Pct-L at backcountry.net >>> To unsubscribe, or change options visit: >>> http://mailman.backcountry.net/mailman/listinfo/pct-l >>> >>> List Archives: >>> http://mailman.backcountry.net/pipermail/pct-l/ >>> All content is copyrighted by the respective authors. >>> Reproduction is prohibited without express permission. >> > From marmotwestvanc at hotmail.com Wed Jun 30 19:11:22 2021 From: marmotwestvanc at hotmail.com (marmot marmot) Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2021 00:11:22 +0000 Subject: [pct-l] Why do minorities stay away from state and national parks? | wfaa.com Message-ID: Maybe this can be a start for some people who haven?t researched the subject. My first degree was in History. I do understand how what people know is informed by who wrote the history books. There is a reason why what actually happened is watered down, forgotten. I hope that we all stay open and inquisitive. I have no intention of making anyone feeling under educated on the subject. I have found that you have to chose to dig and research. People have full lives. I think they run out of energy for something that they don?t believe impacts them. I am a woman from the northern euro group that has benefited from what happened in this country. I?m not the person to whom one should listen. Those voices are out there. Just follow the string from article to article book to book. Just as I saw, in my profession, the workplace change as all of us learned I hope the trail changes. https://www.wfaa.com/article/tech/science/environment/why-are-so-few-minorities-visiting-our-parks/287-adc460d5-f42c-4521-883c-8bdf88cc2e59 By the way, there is a long history of trail maintenance by ALDHAWEST members. We ( the membership) voted in the current board based on their statements of why they wanted to serve and their skills. I certainly happy with the results. I am so concerned about fire vehicle access to fire burn areas. Does anyone have an idea who to write to to impact this problem especially in the area that we just found out about. Also if you are out there hiking now?.say something if you see thruhikers making fires. It?s scary and it might not work,but it might. In the past lots of us certainly have done that. I know I have said this before but with a group of other hikers we sent in rangers to stop fire makers. We described them and told the rangers where they were. Marmot Sent from my iPhone