From pctl at oakapple.net Fri Jul 10 19:34:54 2020 From: pctl at oakapple.net (David Hough reading PCT-L) Date: Fri, 10 Jul 2020 17:34:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [pct-l] National Geographic replacement for halfmile maps Message-ID: <202007110034.06B0YsRo015422@server-f.oakapple.net> I planned some dayhiking in sections P, Q, and R, and noticed National Geographic map booklet 1006 at my REI, so I bought one to see how it compared with the halfmile maps it superseded. First the good news - smaller, lighter, more compact, less likely to fall out of your pocket, less likely to blow away if it does fall. The contour lines seem to be consistent across the trail - no metric contours. Much more surrounding territory shown - which can be helpful if you are trying to follow obscure Forest Service roads to remote trailheads to do short dayhikes. Of course, all maps of Forest Service roads tend to be misleading, especially for those of us who are easily misled, especially in deep canyons where GPS is unreliable. It's worse in the Klamath NF, where all the high altitude road markers tend to be vandalized or weatherized into illegibility. Now the bad news - there's a big difference between 1:75000 and 1:31680. The type size on the new maps is barely legible with elderly eyes. The contour lines are too thick and it's very hard to discern small potential bivy spots on saddles, for instance. There is no running legend of waypoints on this map as there was on each halfmile sheet. My conclusion was that the new maps are mainly useful for planning and as a backup in case you drop your smart phone in a creek - where perhaps you kept the maps you actually navigated by. The trail notes now on pctmap.net are keyed to the National Geographic map booklets, and so harder to use with the previous maps. If I had understood what was coming, I would have downloaded the last complete consistent set of halfmile maps, tracks, waypoints, and trail notes. I'd be willing to pay National Geographic for that now - or the PCTA or halfmile - whoever owns the IP. I do have a fairly recent (2018?) set of printed halfmile maps from Yogi, that I will have to be careful with. After she quit selling them, I bought an hp452 color printer which does a pretty good job of printing out halfmile maps that I had downloaded the pdf for. Unfortunately the trail notes that I have were printed out at various times and aren't necessarily consistent with the maps. From pctl at marcusschwartz.com Fri Jul 10 20:22:17 2020 From: pctl at marcusschwartz.com (Town Food) Date: Fri, 10 Jul 2020 18:22:17 -0700 Subject: [pct-l] National Geographic replacement for halfmile maps In-Reply-To: <202007110034.06B0YsRo015422@server-f.oakapple.net> References: <202007110034.06B0YsRo015422@server-f.oakapple.net> Message-ID: <69b34792-b382-08bc-fee9-02b6f8f8de35@marcusschwartz.com> It looks like archive.org still has the old trail notes and maps. You may need to try a variety of dates to get all the files, but I saw at least some of the 2019 trail notes are available from a November 28th snapshot of the site at: https://web.archive.org/web/20191128224409/https://www.pctmap.net/trail-notes/ -=Town Food On 7/10/20 5:34 PM, David Hough reading PCT-L wrote: > > I planned some dayhiking in sections P, Q, and R, and noticed National > Geographic map booklet 1006 at my REI, so I bought one to see how it > compared with the halfmile maps it superseded. > > First the good news - smaller, lighter, more compact, > less likely to fall out of your pocket, > less likely to blow away if it does fall. > The contour lines seem to be consistent across the trail - no metric contours. > > Much more surrounding territory shown - which can be helpful if you are > trying to follow obscure Forest Service roads to remote trailheads to > do short dayhikes. Of course, all maps of Forest Service roads tend > to be misleading, especially for those of us who are easily misled, especially > in deep canyons where GPS is unreliable. It's worse in the Klamath NF, > where all the high altitude road markers tend to be vandalized or weatherized > into illegibility. > > Now the bad news - there's a big difference between 1:75000 and 1:31680. > The type size on the new maps is barely legible with elderly eyes. The > contour lines are too thick and it's very hard to discern small potential bivy > spots on saddles, for instance. There is no running legend of waypoints > on this map as there was on each halfmile sheet. My conclusion was that > the new maps are mainly useful for planning and as a backup in case you > drop your smart phone in a creek - > where perhaps you kept the maps you actually navigated by. > The trail notes now on pctmap.net are keyed to the National Geographic map > booklets, and so harder to use with the previous maps. > > If I had understood what was coming, I would have downloaded the last > complete consistent set of halfmile maps, tracks, waypoints, and trail notes. > I'd be willing to pay National Geographic for that now - or the PCTA > or halfmile - whoever owns the IP. > > I do have a fairly recent (2018?) set of printed halfmile maps from Yogi, > that I will have to be careful with. After she quit selling them, > I bought an hp452 color printer which does a pretty good job of printing > out halfmile maps that I had downloaded the pdf for. > > Unfortunately the trail notes > that I have were printed out at various times and aren't necessarily > consistent with the maps. > _______________________________________________ > Pct-L mailing list > Pct-L at backcountry.net > To unsubscribe, or change options visit: > http://mailman.backcountry.net/mailman/listinfo/pct-l > > List Archives: > http://mailman.backcountry.net/pipermail/pct-l/ > All content is copyrighted by the respective authors. > Reproduction is prohibited without express permission. > From imscotty at aol.com Fri Jul 10 22:55:22 2020 From: imscotty at aol.com (imscotty at aol.com) Date: Sat, 11 Jul 2020 03:55:22 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [pct-l] National Geographic replacement for halfmile maps In-Reply-To: <69b34792-b382-08bc-fee9-02b6f8f8de35@marcusschwartz.com> References: <202007110034.06B0YsRo015422@server-f.oakapple.net> <69b34792-b382-08bc-fee9-02b6f8f8de35@marcusschwartz.com> Message-ID: <1047436919.34496.1594439722766@mail.yahoo.com> David H., I totally agree with your assessment of the National Geo maps. ?They have some advantages, but you lose a lot of useful detail at that scale compared to the HalfMile maps. ?I plan on using printed HalfMile maps on my hikes as long as they are relevant. Scott From pctl at oakapple.net Fri Jul 10 23:16:53 2020 From: pctl at oakapple.net (David Hough reading PCT-L) Date: Fri, 10 Jul 2020 21:16:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [pct-l] dayhikes on the PCT Message-ID: <202007110416.06B4GrZp021891@server-f.oakapple.net> I have recently taken short dayhikes in sections J, P, Q, and R. I didn't notice any hikers that I would identify as through hikers, though some might have fooled me. The J started from the Tamarack trailhead parking area off Blue Lakes Road, in mid-June. Going southbound, there were trees across the trail every half mile or so, some of which might have been problematic for stock. I was stopped by a tricky ice gully on the north side of Raymond Peak. Some younger people crossed it carefully even as I watched, but it was no place for wobbly elderly knees and ankles. At least one person had either fallen or glissaded all the way to the bottom. Schaffer's book shows the former PCT route which dropped about 500' and then climbed back up, presumably to avoid that problem. I wasn't looking carefully and didn't notice any sign of the former route. There were also indications that some people had hiked up and over to avoid the problem, but it was a steep loose slope that was also unattractive to elderly ankles. The next day I went toward The Nipple and made it up to the ridge viewpoint just below it, around 8800'. The wind was blowing significantly though and taking all the pleasure out of an otherwise clear sunny day. No trees were down on this small part of the trail. The next hikes were over July 4 weekend. P started from Gumboot Trailhead and I went east (south) for about four miles. No tree problems on the trail here. Q started from Etna Summit and went north for about four miles to a "campsite" in a saddle. If one's only criterion were excellent views of sunrise and sunset, it's outstanding, but pretty uncomfortable from pretty much every other perspective. There are better campsites in the woods earlier where the ridge briefly broadens after entering the wilderness, and again shortly thereafter by a register for comments. The parking area at Etna Summit was pretty full. While in the lot I overheard a conversation among hikers who had just completed Q north to Grider Creek. Once off the ridge and in the Grider Creek drainage, the overgrown brush and down timber were formidable and the trail elusive. I remember the trail being overgrown normally when I did it southbound 15 years ago, but the current down timber reflects trail maintenance deferred, probably until next year. That other time I ended up camping on an old logging road, halfway up the canyon. R encompassed the trail from Wards Fork Gap to about half a mile west of the road to Reeves Ranch Springs. The trail here was in pretty good shape, but the signs on the Forest Service access roads were not. Considering it was July 4 weekend, there were very few other people out and about. But plenty of cows in some places. There was plenty of water near Bearground Springs. The wildflowers were FANTASTIC. In a normal year, through hikers probably miss the peak of the season. In a normal year, there would be snow problems here and there in R, but I encountered none. There were lots of tourists from all over at Yreka, Weed, and Redding. Persons serving the public were properly masked, but the public... not so much. I followed Bay Area rules and masked up indoors except while actually eating and drinking. I enjoyed the Paystreak in Etna - the Etna Brewery seems to be closed for the duration - but most people were not masked. Ignore any websites that indicate the Etna Brewery or Paystreak having taprooms in Yreka. Both have been closed for a while. But while dining at the Black Bear, I discovered Fall River Hexagenia from Redding, and made a point of visiting their taproom on my way home. From marmotwestvanc at hotmail.com Sat Jul 11 14:06:31 2020 From: marmotwestvanc at hotmail.com (marmot marmot) Date: Sat, 11 Jul 2020 19:06:31 +0000 Subject: [pct-l] Hi all Message-ID: It seems that the CDT-L does not exist anymore so I?ll ask my questions here. Most people do the Gilla River alternative. It appears ,from Guthook, that the official route has water ( at least part of the way-I?m not completely sure). * Why do people choose the alt route? Fording the river countless times does not appeal to me. But I?ll do it if that?s only way with water. * have any of you done the official route? * is there water? *is there a reasonably clear route on the ground or enough Waypoints that it isn?t just wandering around semi-lost for days? * will I be forced to be on Facebook to get this info? That I have avoided so far. A lot of this will be new for me. In ?96 I used Wolf?s guidebook and list of maps and I followed Ray and Jenny?s route though New Mexico. It?s been so long since I did the CDT that even the parts that are the same will feel new. And I?m going to hike most of it the opposite direction. It will be exciting to see actual trail. If they exist. I?d like to have paper maps that have the route on them in addition to Guthook? Maybe if anyone knows of a better app ?-let me know. Are Jonathan Ley?s maps still accurate? Is there something out there of which I am unaware? I won?t be on trail until next April. ?21. The first time I had piles of forest service and BLM maps in every resupply. So this time I was hoping for info that was little more compressed and simpler. Maybe even had a trail on the map. I?m not expecting anything as obvious as the AT or PCT but I have hopes that it will be less of me just heading from Canada to Mexico with map and compass whatever random, stumbling way I can figure out. Thanks for any help. Marmot Sent from my iPhone From timpnye at gmail.com Sat Jul 11 16:07:19 2020 From: timpnye at gmail.com (Timothy Nye) Date: Sat, 11 Jul 2020 14:07:19 -0700 Subject: [pct-l] Hi all In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Marmot, First, the CDTA issued a new mapset this spring which encompasses some significant rerouting principally in New Mexico and Montana. Ley still updates his maps, but there really has been a passing of the guard, I believe. I think that?s the set that you?ll want to have. You can download for free, although they would appreciate a donation. As far as navigation is concerned, i asked the CDT 2020 Facebook for you earlier this spring. The universal answer was Guthook. I really didn?t want to rely on a phone app, but downloaded it, watched a few Youtube videos and came away thoroughly impressed. It?s truly amazing. I?m past military and always have been a map and compass guy, but let?s face it, the maps the size of Half Mile's are pretty useless for shooting back azmuths if you get lost. Also, of course there?s en some significant shifting of magnetic north recently. So, it?s pretty much Guthooks. Phone in airplane mode and an external battery pack. There are some fairly (relatively speaking) lightweight ones out there. Some searching will find light weight lightning plugs and short cord that mate with the necessary adapters. The downside is you really have to protect the phone so an upgraded case if you don?t have one would be a good idea. Sadly, this means electronics has made the Big Four into the Big Five, as far as accounting for pack weight is concerned. Also, let me recommend the Garmin InReach Mini. 2.+ ounces. Not only will it send the SOS, but you can message the outside from anywhere, receive weather reports tailored to your position and coordinate with SAR if it comes to that. So, you still using Esbit? Still my stove of choice Gourmet > On Jul 11, 2020, at 12:06 PM, marmot marmot wrote: > > It seems that the CDT-L does not exist anymore so I?ll ask my questions here. Most people do the Gilla River alternative. It appears ,from Guthook, that the official route has water ( at least part of the way-I?m not completely sure). > * Why do people choose the alt route? Fording the river countless times does not appeal to me. But I?ll do it if that?s only way with water. > * have any of you done the official route? > * is there water? > *is there a reasonably clear route on the ground or enough Waypoints that it isn?t just wandering around semi-lost for days? > * will I be forced to be on Facebook to get this info? That I have avoided so far. > A lot of this will be new for me. In ?96 I used Wolf?s guidebook and list of maps and I followed Ray and Jenny?s route though New Mexico. It?s been so long since I did the CDT that even the parts that are the same will feel new. And I?m going to hike most of it the opposite direction. It will be exciting to see actual trail. If they exist. I?d like to have paper maps that have the route on them in addition to Guthook? Maybe if anyone knows of a better app ?-let me know. Are Jonathan Ley?s maps still accurate? Is there something out there of which I am unaware? > I won?t be on trail until next April. ?21. The first time I had piles of forest service and BLM maps in every resupply. So this time I was hoping for info that was little more compressed and simpler. Maybe even had a trail on the map. I?m not expecting anything as obvious as the AT or PCT but I have hopes that it will be less of me just heading from Canada to Mexico with map and compass whatever random, stumbling way I can figure out. > Thanks for any help. > Marmot > > > > Sent from my iPhone > _______________________________________________ > Pct-L mailing list > Pct-L at backcountry.net > To unsubscribe, or change options visit: > http://mailman.backcountry.net/mailman/listinfo/pct-l > > List Archives: > http://mailman.backcountry.net/pipermail/pct-l/ > All content is copyrighted by the respective authors. > Reproduction is prohibited without express permission. From pdstevenson333 at gmail.com Sun Jul 12 08:21:16 2020 From: pdstevenson333 at gmail.com (Peter Stevenson) Date: Sun, 12 Jul 2020 07:21:16 -0600 Subject: [pct-l] National Geographic replacement for halfmile maps In-Reply-To: <69b34792-b382-08bc-fee9-02b6f8f8de35@marcusschwartz.com> References: <202007110034.06B0YsRo015422@server-f.oakapple.net> <69b34792-b382-08bc-fee9-02b6f8f8de35@marcusschwartz.com> Message-ID: I have been using a set of Halfmile's maps I printed a few years ago. Sorry to hear they are no longer being kept up. On Fri, Jul 10, 2020 at 7:22 PM Town Food wrote: > It looks like archive.org still has the old trail notes and maps. You > may need to try a variety of dates to get all the files, but I saw at > least some of the 2019 trail notes are available from a November 28th > snapshot of the site at: > > https://web.archive.org/web/20191128224409/https://www.pctmap.net/trail-notes/ > > -=Town Food > > On 7/10/20 5:34 PM, David Hough reading PCT-L wrote: > > > > I planned some dayhiking in sections P, Q, and R, and noticed National > > Geographic map booklet 1006 at my REI, so I bought one to see how it > > compared with the halfmile maps it superseded. > > > > First the good news - smaller, lighter, more compact, > > less likely to fall out of your pocket, > > less likely to blow away if it does fall. > > The contour lines seem to be consistent across the trail - no metric > contours. > > > > Much more surrounding territory shown - which can be helpful if you are > > trying to follow obscure Forest Service roads to remote trailheads to > > do short dayhikes. Of course, all maps of Forest Service roads tend > > to be misleading, especially for those of us who are easily misled, > especially > > in deep canyons where GPS is unreliable. It's worse in the Klamath > NF, > > where all the high altitude road markers tend to be vandalized or > weatherized > > into illegibility. > > > > Now the bad news - there's a big difference between 1:75000 and 1:31680. > > The type size on the new maps is barely legible with elderly eyes. The > > contour lines are too thick and it's very hard to discern small > potential bivy > > spots on saddles, for instance. There is no running legend of > waypoints > > on this map as there was on each halfmile sheet. My conclusion was > that > > the new maps are mainly useful for planning and as a backup in case you > > drop your smart phone in a creek - > > where perhaps you kept the maps you actually navigated by. > > The trail notes now on pctmap.net are keyed to the National Geographic > map > > booklets, and so harder to use with the previous maps. > > > > If I had understood what was coming, I would have downloaded the last > > complete consistent set of halfmile maps, tracks, waypoints, and trail > notes. > > I'd be willing to pay National Geographic for that now - or the PCTA > > or halfmile - whoever owns the IP. > > > > I do have a fairly recent (2018?) set of printed halfmile maps from Yogi, > > that I will have to be careful with. After she quit selling them, > > I bought an hp452 color printer which does a pretty good job of printing > > out halfmile maps that I had downloaded the pdf for. > > > > Unfortunately the trail notes > > that I have were printed out at various times and aren't necessarily > > consistent with the maps. > > _______________________________________________ > > Pct-L mailing list > > Pct-L at backcountry.net > > To unsubscribe, or change options visit: > > http://mailman.backcountry.net/mailman/listinfo/pct-l > > > > List Archives: > > http://mailman.backcountry.net/pipermail/pct-l/ > > All content is copyrighted by the respective authors. > > Reproduction is prohibited without express permission. > > > _______________________________________________ > Pct-L mailing list > Pct-L at backcountry.net > To unsubscribe, or change options visit: > http://mailman.backcountry.net/mailman/listinfo/pct-l > > List Archives: > http://mailman.backcountry.net/pipermail/pct-l/ > All content is copyrighted by the respective authors. > Reproduction is prohibited without express permission. > From marmotwestvanc at hotmail.com Sun Jul 12 17:42:38 2020 From: marmotwestvanc at hotmail.com (marmot marmot) Date: Sun, 12 Jul 2020 22:42:38 +0000 Subject: [pct-l] Hi again Message-ID: To add to my last email. I know about the CDTC maps. I just want to know which sets of maps people have used and why you liked them. Marmot Sent from my iPhone From tumstead96 at gmail.com Mon Jul 13 12:21:44 2020 From: tumstead96 at gmail.com (Tim Umstead) Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2020 10:21:44 -0700 Subject: [pct-l] Pct-L Digest, Vol 132, Issue 2 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > > We did the CDT in 2017 and we choise to hike the Gila high route. The > offical route has very little water on it and In '17 most of the sources > were dry. The Gila high route starts after Doc Campbell's. It stays above > the Gila, to the souh, and had plenty of water souces. It also had a lot > of pine trees keeping it cooler then the river valley. The high route was > solid trail, which is uncommon in NM. The high route does cross the Gila > toward the end of the Gila alt, so you have a choise of finishing the high > route or the Gila alt, a little ways before Snow Lake. > > I'm not the greatest fan with Guthooks app, but it is the only option on > the CDT. We carried paper maps, Gunhook's app, and a soft copy of Ley's > maps. As our trip progressed I relayed more and more on the app, but I > still carried the maps. Especially on the CDT, being able to, very > quickly, know where I was made my navagation a lot easier. Becarful with > the social infor on Guthooks app. The use of that information is hit and > miss. You might read about a water tank being dry and when you get there > find it full. Then rereading the social entry you discover that it was 3 > years old. I would normaly argue that old data should be deleted, but I > remember one entry that was over five years old. It gave directions on > what colored wires had to be connected where to get the water pump > running. Without that information we would have had a long dry walk to the > next water source. > Ley map: I wish he would cut out all the very old information. That being said Ley's maps showed alt's that the app and maps did not have. There were times this was very useful. I is not a big deal to get an app like Avenza Maps and a soft copy of Ley's maps. That way they can be consulted as necessary. The Ravens PCT 96, 15, CDT 17, AT 19 From marmotwestvanc at hotmail.com Mon Jul 13 12:35:58 2020 From: marmotwestvanc at hotmail.com (marmot marmot) Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2020 17:35:58 +0000 Subject: [pct-l] Pct-L Digest, Vol 132, Issue 2 In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: Thank you. What do you mean by a soft copy of Ley?s map? I don?t understand the use of the word. I?m guessing that that info is better than the sometimes 20 year old maps that were available in ?96. A few years ago I rehiked the San Juans. I was amazed at the amount of trail and signs. I touched and sometimes hugged those signs. Marmot Sent from my iPhone > On Jul 13, 2020, at 10:22 AM, Tim Umstead wrote: > > ? >> >> >> We did the CDT in 2017 and we choise to hike the Gila high route. The >> offical route has very little water on it and In '17 most of the sources >> were dry. The Gila high route starts after Doc Campbell's. It stays above >> the Gila, to the souh, and had plenty of water souces. It also had a lot >> of pine trees keeping it cooler then the river valley. The high route was >> solid trail, which is uncommon in NM. The high route does cross the Gila >> toward the end of the Gila alt, so you have a choise of finishing the high >> route or the Gila alt, a little ways before Snow Lake. >> > > >> I'm not the greatest fan with Guthooks app, but it is the only option on >> the CDT. We carried paper maps, Gunhook's app, and a soft copy of Ley's >> maps. As our trip progressed I relayed more and more on the app, but I >> still carried the maps. Especially on the CDT, being able to, very >> quickly, know where I was made my navagation a lot easier. Becarful with >> the social infor on Guthooks app. The use of that information is hit and >> miss. You might read about a water tank being dry and when you get there >> find it full. Then rereading the social entry you discover that it was 3 >> years old. I would normaly argue that old data should be deleted, but I >> remember one entry that was over five years old. It gave directions on >> what colored wires had to be connected where to get the water pump >> running. Without that information we would have had a long dry walk to the >> next water source. >> > > Ley map: I wish he would cut out all the very old information. That being > said Ley's maps showed alt's that the app and maps did not have. There > were times this was very useful. I is not a big deal to get an app like > Avenza Maps and a soft copy of Ley's maps. That way they can be consulted > as necessary. > > The Ravens > PCT 96, 15, CDT 17, AT 19 > _______________________________________________ > Pct-L mailing list > Pct-L at backcountry.net > To unsubscribe, or change options visit: > http://mailman.backcountry.net/mailman/listinfo/pct-l > > List Archives: > http://mailman.backcountry.net/pipermail/pct-l/ > All content is copyrighted by the respective authors. > Reproduction is prohibited without express permission. From pastormaryd at msn.com Mon Jul 13 12:38:01 2020 From: pastormaryd at msn.com (MARY E DAVISON) Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2020 17:38:01 +0000 Subject: [pct-l] Marmot Message-ID: I started in New Mexico a number of years ago and finished CDT 3 years ago so this is not recent information. I used CDTC maps, sometimes Wolf?s book, Ley maps and, at the end used Guthook. They all have their uses. Of course carrying everything is not something thru hikers like. The CDTC Bearcreek maps are good for those who like topo maps. I do. I also always had some sort of Garmin, now the Inreach Explorer which has 24K maps and CDT marked. Many times I drew my own line in planning so always knew pretty well where I wanted to be. That did not mean I was never misplaced a bit, but never very far off and could always get found again. The only disadvantage with Guthook or even CDTC maps are what to do if you or someone needs to bail or bypass a fire closure. Maps that only cover the trail and not have a view of the wider area can be a problem at times. There were at least a couple times that was important, one for each reason, and I was glad I had carried National Forest maps as well. Let?s maps were important at least a couple times in Colorado due to lightning concerns. He has alternate routes at a bit lower altitude and I took a couple. They were copacetic choices as I saw some different parts of wilderness and some nice moose doing so. You can tell from this that I am old school - mix and matched Wolf/Ley/Bear Creek, depending on circumstances on the ground. And I like maps. I think most CDT thru hikers these days go with Guthook and maybe add CDTC Bearcreek maps for paper. Inreach has nice topo but it takes a little practice and has to be zoomed in and out and moved around to get bigger picture. But I like knowing exactly where I am in relation to the trail. Both Inreach and Guthook give that. Inreach also has other features including that SOS button I never wanted to need. My opinion is that you need to weigh the pros and cons of each and make your own decision about what and how much to carry for which sections. No standard answer fits all. Have fun planning. Sent from my iPhone From marmotwestvanc at hotmail.com Mon Jul 13 13:07:01 2020 From: marmotwestvanc at hotmail.com (marmot marmot) Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2020 18:07:01 +0000 Subject: [pct-l] Marmot In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thank you Medicare Pastor( I hope I have remembered your name correctly)All info and thoughts are appreciated Yes,I do get hung up in going light. I?ll just have to grit my teeth and take more weight and choices. I plan to buy some sort of GPS messaging device before I go. Which one I?m not sure. Spot? INREACH? In the San Juans recently found the Bearcreek waypoints to be at times bizarrely off. Twice I was standing right on the trail next to a junction sign and it told me I was off trail. I began to just use my paper map. I didn?t know that anyone still used Wolf. Maybe I?ll broaden my thoughts about what to use. I have a lot of time to figure this out. The first time I just laid out all my maps on the floor and circled the mountains listed Then, hoped I could find my way. Often I wasn?t on a trail ?just wandering. I was hoping for a bit more certainty this time. But there was a woman who did it a couple of years before me ?Barbara,I think ?who said that in four days she could do a hundred miles and you are bound to find something in a hundred miles. That always comforted me when once again I wasn?t sure where I was. It?s hard to starve in 4 days. Marmot Sent from my iPhone > On Jul 13, 2020, at 10:38 AM, MARY E DAVISON wrote: > > ?I started in New Mexico a number of years ago and finished CDT 3 years ago so this is not recent information. I used CDTC maps, sometimes Wolf?s book, Ley maps and, at the end used Guthook. They all have their uses. Of course carrying everything is not something thru hikers like. The CDTC Bearcreek maps are good for those who like topo maps. I do. I also always had some sort of Garmin, now the Inreach Explorer which has 24K maps and CDT marked. Many times I drew my own line in planning so always knew pretty well where I wanted to be. That did not mean I was never misplaced a bit, but never very far off and could always get found again. The only disadvantage with Guthook or even CDTC maps are what to do if you or someone needs to bail or bypass a fire closure. Maps that only cover the trail and not have a view of the wider area can be a problem at times. There were at least a couple times that was important, one for each reason, and I was glad I had carried National Forest maps as well. Let?s maps were important at least a couple times in Colorado due to lightning concerns. He has alternate routes at a bit lower altitude and I took a couple. They were copacetic choices as I saw some different parts of wilderness and some nice moose doing so. You can tell from this that I am old school - mix and matched Wolf/Ley/Bear Creek, depending on circumstances on the ground. And I like maps. I think most CDT thru hikers these days go with Guthook and maybe add CDTC Bearcreek maps for paper. Inreach has nice topo but it takes a little practice and has to be zoomed in and out and moved around to get bigger picture. But I like knowing exactly where I am in relation to the trail. Both Inreach and Guthook give that. Inreach also has other features including that SOS button I never wanted to need. My opinion is that you need to weigh the pros and cons of each and make your own decision about what and how much to carry for which sections. No standard answer fits all. Have fun planning. > > Sent from my iPhone > _______________________________________________ > Pct-L mailing list > Pct-L at backcountry.net > To unsubscribe, or change options visit: > http://mailman.backcountry.net/mailman/listinfo/pct-l > > List Archives: > http://mailman.backcountry.net/pipermail/pct-l/ > All content is copyrighted by the respective authors. > Reproduction is prohibited without express permission. From tumstead96 at gmail.com Tue Jul 14 14:08:34 2020 From: tumstead96 at gmail.com (Tim Umstead) Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2020 12:08:34 -0700 Subject: [pct-l] Marmot Message-ID: Just a thought on Bear Creek waypoints being off. Yes they can and will be. No one is out there every year updating them. That being said Guthook's app will be off also. Guthook does not go out and replot waypoints for every trail they have for their app. They just use someone else's waypoints. For the CDT Guthook uses Bear Creeks data. It is quite obvious because in 2017 Guthook's waypoints began have Bear Creek numbering in the info, ie. 14_175MC. So if Bear Creek data is off Guthook's app will be off. I think Guthook picked up Halfmile's waypoint several years ago. Just remember Guthook is an app that uses someone else's data and then charges a lot for the privilege. That being said we still used that app on the CDT and we made it from Mexico to Canada. A side comment on the app working in areas beyond the waypoints. In 2017 Montana had over 1,000,000 acres burn. We had hundreds of miles of reroutes around the fires. In town I would have the app download maps around the area we were going to hike. This way I was still able to use the app and follow the roads around the fires. From jjolson58 at gmail.com Tue Jul 14 14:43:15 2020 From: jjolson58 at gmail.com (Jeffrey Olson) Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2020 13:43:15 -0600 Subject: [pct-l] Marmot In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I was hiking along the CDT in the Winds in September, 2011 and ran across the Bear Creek Survey party.? I believe they were finishing up surveying the trail that year. It was Jerry Brown and two helpers, one of whom carried the big GPS antenna.? An older guy and two strong younger persons, a man and woman if I remember correctly.? The amount of detail they were recording was impressive.? A couple years ago I hiked from Crazy Crook north.? I'd check the guthook track and cairns on the top of the little ridges, the 50' up and down that's wearying.? The app was within 10' every time. All that said, I got lost in the early oughts just south or north of the? Wyoming/Colorado border.? I had to drop down a ridge and up another, all in mostly forest.? No trail, no ribbons in trees, no nothing.? An interesting three hours, hot sweaty and bothered... The trail is a living thing and part of the adventure is there is no trail sometimes. In 1992 hiking south from Lassen we kept running into clear cuts. My girlfriend got really good at looking at the topo, the forest a quarter mile away, at the topo, and back and forth.? She located the trail every time to like within 50'.? After that she did the map reading. JEff On 7/14/2020 1:08 PM, Tim Umstead wrote: > Just a thought on Bear Creek waypoints being off. Yes they can and will > be. No one is out there every year updating them. That being said > Guthook's app will be off also. Guthook does not go out and replot > waypoints for every trail they have for their app. They just use someone > else's waypoints. For the CDT Guthook uses Bear Creeks data. It is quite > obvious because in 2017 Guthook's waypoints began have Bear Creek numbering > in the info, ie. 14_175MC. So if Bear Creek data is off Guthook's app will > be off. I think Guthook picked up Halfmile's waypoint several years ago. > Just remember Guthook is an app that uses someone else's data and then > charges a lot for the privilege. That being said we still used that app on > the CDT and we made it from Mexico to Canada. > > A side comment on the app working in areas beyond the waypoints. In 2017 > Montana had over 1,000,000 acres burn. We had hundreds of miles of > reroutes around the fires. In town I would have the app download maps > around the area we were going to hike. This way I was still able to use the > app and follow the roads around the fires. > _______________________________________________ > Pct-L mailing list > Pct-L at backcountry.net > To unsubscribe, or change options visit: > http://mailman.backcountry.net/mailman/listinfo/pct-l > > List Archives: > http://mailman.backcountry.net/pipermail/pct-l/ > All content is copyrighted by the respective authors. > Reproduction is prohibited without express permission. From pctl at oakapple.net Tue Jul 14 14:54:03 2020 From: pctl at oakapple.net (David Hough reading PCT-L) Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2020 12:54:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [pct-l] Marmot Message-ID: <202007141954.06EJs3Pd021473@server-f.oakapple.net> > The trail is a living thing and part of the adventure is there is no trail sometimes. We can't relive the class of 1977 experience on the 2020 PCT. Perhaps that's what the CDT is for! An experience for which my time has passed. I often wonder how much of the original 1974 PCT guidebook route can still be followed - with just the guidebook, compass, and altimeter. I suppose the class of 1977 had the benefit of the second edition published that year, which offered the improved maps used ever since by Wilderness Press. From carlito at gmail.com Tue Jul 14 15:37:20 2020 From: carlito at gmail.com (Carl Siechert) Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2020 13:37:20 -0700 Subject: [pct-l] Marmot In-Reply-To: <202007141954.06EJs3Pd021473@server-f.oakapple.net> References: <202007141954.06EJs3Pd021473@server-f.oakapple.net> Message-ID: On Tue, Jul 14, 2020 at 12:54 PM David Hough reading PCT-L < pctl at oakapple.net> wrote: > > I suppose the class of 1977 > had the benefit of the second edition published that year, which offered > the improved maps used ever since by Wilderness Press. > > Yes and no. I had been corresponding with Tom Winnett throughout the previous fall and winter, and Wilderness Press hoped to have the new edition done in time for the '77 season. Didn't happen. (IIRC, the CA volume came out mid-summer, about the time the thru hikers crossed into Oregon!) Instead, Tom sent me page proofs at several points along the way. In those days, a page proof consisted of a photocopy of the paste-up board, which had all the type pasted down in position -- and a big black rectangle (on the photocopy; on the original board, it's rubylith) wherever photos or maps would go. So we didn't have the advantage of the new, larger scale, multicolor maps, but we did have the updated textual descriptions, which were helpful because a lot of new trail had been built between '73 and '77. And it also gave us an opportunity to comment (not always complimentary!) and provide updates on the new text, some of which made it back to Wilderness Press before printing. Thanks for reminding me about how bad the original '73/'74 maps were! I don't know if anyone else from '77 corresponded directly with Wilderness Press, but of course we shared the intel we had. > The trail is a living thing and part of the adventure is there is no trail sometimes. Definitely true in a few places in '77, but for the most part, USFS and Wilderness Press had mapped out a pretty good route using existing trails and roads where permanent PCT had not yet been built. I do recall one place near Castella where we were cruising along on a section of newly built trail, which abruptly ended in the middle of the forest with a stake in the ground marked "End Project." We have gone back in a few places to revisit the '70s route. Makes for a nice loop trip: Go one way on current PCT, one way on old route. Cheers, Carl 1977 PCT Kelty Kid From pctl at marcusschwartz.com Tue Jul 14 15:52:21 2020 From: pctl at marcusschwartz.com (Town Food) Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2020 13:52:21 -0700 Subject: [pct-l] Marmot In-Reply-To: References: <202007141954.06EJs3Pd021473@server-f.oakapple.net> Message-ID: On 7/14/20 1:37 PM, Carl Siechert wrote: > We have gone back in a few places to revisit the '70s route. Makes for a > nice loop trip: Go one way on current PCT, one way on old route. This sounds interesting -- do you know of anywhere to get information about the '70s route these days? For example, has somebody put the old maps online somewhere? -=Town Food From pctl at oakapple.net Tue Jul 14 16:25:24 2020 From: pctl at oakapple.net (David Hough reading PCT-L) Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2020 14:25:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [pct-l] Marmot Message-ID: <202007142125.06ELPOnt010591@server-f.oakapple.net> > We have gone back in a few places to revisit the '70s route. Makes for a nice loop trip: Go one way on current PCT, one way on old route. Another project (armchair in my case) - hiking the pre-PCT - follow what's left of the CRHT https://pcnst.oakapple.net/crht/past.gif as much as possible from the border up to the Kern basin and into Sequoia to meet the JMT, then follow the TYT from Tuolumne to Tahoe, then from Mushroom Rock to go east of Shasta to Klamath Falls, and then up the Lake of the Woods - and then follow the Oregon Skyline Trail and the Cascade Crest Trail to the border. Or to get really crazy, leave the trail at Webber Peak and follow the actual Pacific crest until you link up with the CDT somewhere around the Tetons. In addition to really major water challenges, worse than the Mushroom Rock to Klamath Falls adventure, the real Pacific Crest hasn't got many resupply options. Instead, around 1972 in graduate school I worked out a route on Forest Service maps and USGS topos that covered the PCT route as well as I could determine from a Forest Service brochure https://pcnst.oakapple.net/usfs/1971-ca/ and included side trips to climb all the major mountains along the way. Pretty unrealistic. But rather than joining the class of 1977, which I didn't even know about until 2001, when I got out of graduate school I abandoned all those dreams and went to work to pay off my education, then continued to pay off my house, then continued to pay off my chilren. I finally got to hike the whole PCT in bits and pieces over 2001-2013 - inspired by a dinner table conversation at May Lake High Sierra Camp on September 9, 2000. "The youth gets together his materials to build a bridge to the moon, or, perchance, a palace or temple on the earth, and, at length, the middle-aged man concludes to build a woodshed with them." None of this is meant as advice to youth. But if you come to a fork in the road, take it. From marmotwestvanc at hotmail.com Tue Jul 14 16:35:34 2020 From: marmotwestvanc at hotmail.com (marmot marmot) Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2020 21:35:34 +0000 Subject: [pct-l] Marmot In-Reply-To: References: <202007141954.06EJs3Pd021473@server-f.oakapple.net> , Message-ID: I stayed in a hostel in Courtenay BC Canada They had a bookcase filled with so many used books. In all that mess were ?The Pacific Crest Trail,Volume 1,Calif by Thomas Winnett copyright 1973 and The PCT volume 2,second edition ,1976. By Schaffer &Hartlines. There was a sign ?take a book leave a book?.I asked ?does that include the trail guide books?? The owner said ?yes of course?. I left 10 books. Not really believing that it really was ok, I felt a bit guilty for a couple of years. I could not imagine that he didn?t think they were special. Then I heard that hostel had burned down taking everything inside it maybe a year after I stayed there. Those old guidebooks are cherished by me. I often look at the old routes and maps and compare them to the route I took in my 2 thru hikes of the trail. The books are barely used. I don?t know how to put them online without cutting them apart. Absolutely won?t do that. They might not even be what you are talking about. Maybe you mean earlier routes. Marmot Sent from my iPhone > On Jul 14, 2020, at 1:52 PM, Town Food wrote: > > ?On 7/14/20 1:37 PM, Carl Siechert wrote: >> We have gone back in a few places to revisit the '70s route. Makes for a >> nice loop trip: Go one way on current PCT, one way on old route. > This sounds interesting -- do you know of anywhere to get information about the '70s route these days? For example, has somebody put the old maps online somewhere? > > -=Town Food > _______________________________________________ > Pct-L mailing list > Pct-L at backcountry.net > To unsubscribe, or change options visit: > http://mailman.backcountry.net/mailman/listinfo/pct-l > > List Archives: > http://mailman.backcountry.net/pipermail/pct-l/ > All content is copyrighted by the respective authors. > Reproduction is prohibited without express permission. From h at hpka.net Tue Jul 14 17:24:44 2020 From: h at hpka.net (Henry Armitage) Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2020 15:24:44 -0700 Subject: [pct-l] Marmot In-Reply-To: References: <202007141954.06EJs3Pd021473@server-f.oakapple.net> Message-ID: A book scanner (search for that) can scan books that are laid flat beneath them. Looks for an overhead automatic one. Henry On Tue, Jul 14, 2020 at 2:35 PM marmot marmot wrote: > I stayed in a hostel in Courtenay BC Canada They had a bookcase filled > with so many used books. In all that mess were ?The Pacific Crest > Trail,Volume 1,Calif by Thomas Winnett copyright 1973 and The PCT volume > 2,second edition ,1976. By Schaffer &Hartlines. There was a sign ?take a > book leave a book?.I asked ?does that include the trail guide books?? The > owner said ?yes of course?. I left 10 books. Not really believing that it > really was ok, I felt a bit guilty for a couple of years. I could not > imagine that he didn?t think they were special. Then I heard that hostel > had burned down taking everything inside it maybe a year after I stayed > there. Those old guidebooks are cherished by me. I often look at the old > routes and maps and compare them to the route I took in my 2 thru hikes of > the trail. > The books are barely used. I don?t know how to put them online without > cutting them apart. Absolutely won?t do that. They might not even be what > you are talking about. Maybe you mean earlier routes. > Marmot > > > > Sent from my iPhone > > > On Jul 14, 2020, at 1:52 PM, Town Food wrote: > > > > ?On 7/14/20 1:37 PM, Carl Siechert wrote: > >> We have gone back in a few places to revisit the '70s route. Makes for a > >> nice loop trip: Go one way on current PCT, one way on old route. > > This sounds interesting -- do you know of anywhere to get information > about the '70s route these days? For example, has somebody put the old > maps online somewhere? > > > > -=Town Food > > _______________________________________________ > > Pct-L mailing list > > Pct-L at backcountry.net > > To unsubscribe, or change options visit: > > http://mailman.backcountry.net/mailman/listinfo/pct-l > > > > List Archives: > > http://mailman.backcountry.net/pipermail/pct-l/ > > All content is copyrighted by the respective authors. > > Reproduction is prohibited without express permission. > _______________________________________________ > Pct-L mailing list > Pct-L at backcountry.net > To unsubscribe, or change options visit: > http://mailman.backcountry.net/mailman/listinfo/pct-l > > List Archives: > http://mailman.backcountry.net/pipermail/pct-l/ > All content is copyrighted by the respective authors. > Reproduction is prohibited without express permission. From carlito at gmail.com Tue Jul 14 17:43:17 2020 From: carlito at gmail.com (Carl Siechert) Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2020 15:43:17 -0700 Subject: [pct-l] Marmot In-Reply-To: References: <202007141954.06EJs3Pd021473@server-f.oakapple.net> Message-ID: Great score, Marmot. At 10:2, you still got a great deal! On Tue, Jul 14, 2020 at 2:35 PM marmot marmot wrote: > I stayed in a hostel in Courtenay BC Canada They had a bookcase filled > with so many used books. In all that mess were ?The Pacific Crest > Trail,Volume 1,Calif by Thomas Winnett copyright 1973 and The PCT volume > 2,second edition ,1976. By Schaffer &Hartlines. There was a sign ?take a > book leave a book?.I asked ?does that include the trail guide books?? The > owner said ?yes of course?. I left 10 books. Not really believing that it > really was ok, I felt a bit guilty for a couple of years. I could not > imagine that he didn?t think they were special. Then I heard that hostel > had burned down taking everything inside it maybe a year after I stayed > there. Those old guidebooks are cherished by me. I often look at the old > routes and maps and compare them to the route I took in my 2 thru hikes of > the trail. > > From carlito at gmail.com Tue Jul 14 18:28:44 2020 From: carlito at gmail.com (Carl Siechert) Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2020 16:28:44 -0700 Subject: [pct-l] Marmot In-Reply-To: <202007142125.06ELPOnt010591@server-f.oakapple.net> References: <202007142125.06ELPOnt010591@server-f.oakapple.net> Message-ID: Don't feel bad. I didn't know about "the class of 1977" until 2001 either! I mean, I knew a bunch of people with whom we had crossed paths -- and, in some cases, spent considerable time together -- on a long hike in 1977 but I never really thought of the *class* as an entity, and never thought I'd see those folks again. That all changed in 2001 when I saw a message from Strider on PCT-L. We reconnected and then started chasing down others until we had us a movement. Regarding your sage advice to youth: Absolutely! With one quarter left before graduation, we knew if we didn't hike in '77 we'd soon have jobs, homes, spouses, kids, responsibilities -- and no chance of a thru hike. Our parents were mortified, thinking we were dropping out just shy of graduating, but we convinced them that we had to do this now, and that we'd finish that last quarter after we returned, which we did. I'm glad you were able to do it on the installment plan. On Tue, Jul 14, 2020 at 2:25 PM David Hough reading PCT-L wrote: > > But rather than joining the class of 1977, which I didn't even know about > until 2001, when I got out of graduate school I abandoned all those dreams > and went to work to pay off my education, then continued to pay off my > house, > then continued to pay off my chilren. I finally got to hike the whole > PCT in bits and pieces over 2001-2013 - inspired by a dinner table > conversation > at May Lake High Sierra Camp on September 9, 2000. > > "The youth gets together his materials to build a bridge to the moon, or, > perchance, a palace or temple on the earth, and, at length, the > middle-aged > man concludes to build a woodshed with them." > > None of this is meant as advice to youth. > But if you come to a fork in the road, take it. > > From pctl at oakapple.net Tue Jul 14 18:55:49 2020 From: pctl at oakapple.net (David Hough reading PCT-L) Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2020 16:55:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [pct-l] Marmot Message-ID: <202007142355.06ENtnYg010619@server-f.oakapple.net> The myth of the class of 1977 that I either heard or imagined was that it was the first ad-hoc group of non-related though hikers. I don't recall hearing of any other through hikers/riders on the PCT other than individuals and couples prior to 1977. I'm glad to hear that the myth had some substance to it but, as usual, the reality was more complicated than the myth. No doubt there were "classes" on the AT for decades before that, though I don't know whether they were called that. On the CDT I have no facts, but always supposed it was mostly individuals and couples, but the class-of-1977 phenomenon might have already happened there. It sounds like the CDT still offers the other pre-1977 PCT experiences here and there - vague routes, too many routes, not enough routes, etc. On the Camino Franc?s in Spain in 2003, people tended to self sort into small groups that traveled at the same speed and had a common language. If anybody thought to call them "classes" it would be all those who arrived in Santiago on a particular day. From jjolson58 at gmail.com Tue Jul 14 18:58:07 2020 From: jjolson58 at gmail.com (Jeffrey Olson) Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2020 17:58:07 -0600 Subject: [pct-l] Marmot In-Reply-To: <202007142355.06ENtnYg010619@server-f.oakapple.net> References: <202007142355.06ENtnYg010619@server-f.oakapple.net> Message-ID: What happened to the fellow who had a stove collection, walrus mustache, who lived in the northwest somewhere.? Can't remember his name.? He was active on the listserv 20 years ago... On 7/14/2020 5:55 PM, David Hough reading PCT-L wrote: > The myth of the class of 1977 that I either heard or imagined was that it was > the first ad-hoc group of non-related though hikers. > I don't recall hearing of any other through hikers/riders on the PCT other than > individuals and couples prior to 1977. > > I'm glad to hear that the myth had some substance to it but, as usual, the > reality was more complicated than the myth. > > No doubt there were "classes" on the AT for decades before that, though I > don't know whether they were called that. > > On the CDT I have no facts, but always supposed it was mostly individuals > and couples, but the class-of-1977 phenomenon might have already happened > there. It sounds like the CDT still offers > the other pre-1977 PCT experiences here and there - > vague routes, too many routes, not enough routes, etc. > > On the Camino Franc?s in Spain in 2003, people tended to self sort into > small groups that traveled at the same speed and had a common language. > If anybody thought to call them "classes" it would be all those who > arrived in Santiago on a particular day. > > _______________________________________________ > Pct-L mailing list > Pct-L at backcountry.net > To unsubscribe, or change options visit: > http://mailman.backcountry.net/mailman/listinfo/pct-l > > List Archives: > http://mailman.backcountry.net/pipermail/pct-l/ > All content is copyrighted by the respective authors. > Reproduction is prohibited without express permission. From marmotwestvanc at hotmail.com Tue Jul 14 19:08:31 2020 From: marmotwestvanc at hotmail.com (marmot marmot) Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2020 00:08:31 +0000 Subject: [pct-l] Marmot In-Reply-To: References: <202007142355.06ENtnYg010619@server-f.oakapple.net>, Message-ID: Monte Dodge Sent from my iPhone > On Jul 14, 2020, at 4:58 PM, Jeffrey Olson wrote: > > ?What happened to the fellow who had a stove collection, walrus mustache, who lived in the northwest somewhere. Can't remember his name. He was active on the listserv 20 years ago... > >> On 7/14/2020 5:55 PM, David Hough reading PCT-L wrote: >> The myth of the class of 1977 that I either heard or imagined was that it was >> the first ad-hoc group of non-related though hikers. >> I don't recall hearing of any other through hikers/riders on the PCT other than >> individuals and couples prior to 1977. >> >> I'm glad to hear that the myth had some substance to it but, as usual, the >> reality was more complicated than the myth. >> >> No doubt there were "classes" on the AT for decades before that, though I >> don't know whether they were called that. >> >> On the CDT I have no facts, but always supposed it was mostly individuals >> and couples, but the class-of-1977 phenomenon might have already happened >> there. It sounds like the CDT still offers >> the other pre-1977 PCT experiences here and there - >> vague routes, too many routes, not enough routes, etc. >> >> On the Camino Franc?s in Spain in 2003, people tended to self sort into >> small groups that traveled at the same speed and had a common language. >> If anybody thought to call them "classes" it would be all those who >> arrived in Santiago on a particular day. >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Pct-L mailing list >> Pct-L at backcountry.net >> To unsubscribe, or change options visit: >> http://mailman.backcountry.net/mailman/listinfo/pct-l >> >> List Archives: >> http://mailman.backcountry.net/pipermail/pct-l/ >> All content is copyrighted by the respective authors. >> Reproduction is prohibited without express permission. > > _______________________________________________ > Pct-L mailing list > Pct-L at backcountry.net > To unsubscribe, or change options visit: > http://mailman.backcountry.net/mailman/listinfo/pct-l > > List Archives: > http://mailman.backcountry.net/pipermail/pct-l/ > All content is copyrighted by the respective authors. > Reproduction is prohibited without express permission. From marmotwestvanc at hotmail.com Tue Jul 14 19:10:17 2020 From: marmotwestvanc at hotmail.com (marmot marmot) Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2020 00:10:17 +0000 Subject: [pct-l] Marmot Message-ID: Don?t know if they considered themselves a ?class? but the hikers who did the trail in ?76 were/are well known. They also knew of and saw others on the trail and kept track of where they were. Two of those were the famous Carolyn Burkhart(Ravensong), first woman to solo thruhike the PCT and Jean Ella( who went on to do the CDT in I think in ?78 or ?79). Jean Ella hiked with a woman who?s last name was something like Stockton( hope someone else can remember her correct name). Marmot Sent from my iPhone > On Jul 14, 2020, at 4:58 PM, Jeffrey Olson wrote: > > ?What happened to the fellow who had a stove collection, walrus mustache, who lived in the northwest somewhere. Can't remember his name. He was active on the listserv 20 years ago... > >>> On 7/14/2020 5:55 PM, David Hough reading PCT-L wrote: >> The myth of the class of 1977 that I either heard or imagined was that it was >> the first ad-hoc group of non-related though hikers. >> I don't recall hearing of any other through hikers/riders on the PCT other than >> individuals and couples prior to 1977. >> I'm glad to hear that the myth had some substance to it but, as usual, the >> reality was more complicated than the myth. >> No doubt there were "classes" on the AT for decades before that, though I >> don't know whether they were called that. >> On the CDT I have no facts, but always supposed it was mostly individuals >> and couples, but the class-of-1977 phenomenon might have already happened >> there. It sounds like the CDT still offers >> the other pre-1977 PCT experiences here and there - >> vague routes, too many routes, not enough routes, etc. >> On the Camino Franc?s in Spain in 2003, people tended to self sort into >> small groups that traveled at the same speed and had a common language. >> If anybody thought to call them "classes" it would be all those who >> arrived in Santiago on a particular day. >> _______________________________________________ >> Pct-L mailing list >> Pct-L at backcountry.net >> To unsubscribe, or change options visit: >> http://mailman.backcountry.net/mailman/listinfo/pct-l >> List Archives: >> http://mailman.backcountry.net/pipermail/pct-l/ >> All content is copyrighted by the respective authors. >> Reproduction is prohibited without express permission. > > _______________________________________________ > Pct-L mailing list > Pct-L at backcountry.net > To unsubscribe, or change options visit: > http://mailman.backcountry.net/mailman/listinfo/pct-l > > List Archives: > http://mailman.backcountry.net/pipermail/pct-l/ > All content is copyrighted by the respective authors. > Reproduction is prohibited without express permission. From jjolson58 at gmail.com Tue Jul 14 19:16:11 2020 From: jjolson58 at gmail.com (Jeffrey Olson) Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2020 18:16:11 -0600 Subject: [pct-l] Mad Monte... In-Reply-To: <202007150008.06F08CIu010931@server-f.oakapple.net> References: <202007150008.06F08CIu010931@server-f.oakapple.net> Message-ID: https://pbase.com/mad_monte1/image/56717023 How about Warner Springs Monty? On 7/14/2020 6:08 PM, David Hough reading PCT-L wrote: > Monte Dodge - I wonder too. He wore a bear suit at the 2002 kickoff. > I don't remember if he completed a through hike, but he certainly did some > big pieces. > > https://pbase.com/mad_monte1/profile From jjolson58 at gmail.com Tue Jul 14 19:19:22 2020 From: jjolson58 at gmail.com (Jeffrey Olson) Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2020 18:19:22 -0600 Subject: [pct-l] 1974 article in the Mountaineer about the "proposed" PCT Message-ID: <89e2ca0c-5930-0a83-0ba7-c492a307abf4@gmail.com> https://pbase.com/mad_monte1/image/62980977 From jjolson58 at gmail.com Tue Jul 14 19:20:30 2020 From: jjolson58 at gmail.com (Jeffrey Olson) Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2020 18:20:30 -0600 Subject: [pct-l] 1974 article in the Mountaineer about the "proposed" PCT In-Reply-To: <89e2ca0c-5930-0a83-0ba7-c492a307abf4@gmail.com> References: <89e2ca0c-5930-0a83-0ba7-c492a307abf4@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4fcad9ed-3112-534a-2d48-a46d2f20a165@gmail.com> https://pbase.com/mad_monte1/image/62981508 https://pbase.com/mad_monte1/image/62980977 From jjolson58 at gmail.com Tue Jul 14 19:25:27 2020 From: jjolson58 at gmail.com (Jeffrey Olson) Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2020 18:25:27 -0600 Subject: [pct-l] dana yelverton shelter in 1977 Message-ID: <7f576a7b-8001-ebbe-b749-0a32ae28925f@gmail.com> https://pbase.com/mad_monte1/image/66633064 I remember walking by this place 25 years ago and it was totally caved in.? Amazing what 20 years in that environment can do. Jeff From jbruins at gmail.com Tue Jul 14 20:18:32 2020 From: jbruins at gmail.com (Jay Bruins) Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2020 18:18:32 -0700 Subject: [pct-l] Hi all In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, Jul 11, 2020 at 12:06 PM marmot marmot wrote: > It seems that the CDT-L does not exist anymore so I?ll ask my questions > here. Most people do the Gilla River alternative. It appears ,from Guthook, > that the official route has water ( at least part of the way-I?m not > completely sure). > * Why do people choose the alt route? Fording the river countless times > does not appeal to me. But I?ll do it if that?s only way with water. > The Gila is beautiful. The sandstone cliffs are quite spectacular, and totally worth it. You can also make a side-trip to the Gila Cliff Dwellings NM. Crossing a river once is a pain. Crossing it 147 times in two days is entertaining. I had just come back from New Zealand so I was looking forward to it! As a compromise, do the southern half. Where the Gila High Route crosses the river, follow it instead. The river north of there isn't noteworthy. > * have any of you done the official route? > * is there water? > *is there a reasonably clear route on the ground or enough Waypoints that > it isn?t just wandering around semi-lost for days? > If you're talking about the Gila Alternate, there is mostly a trail on the ground. The geography makes it such that if you lose it, you'll find it again. Plenty of other spots on the CDT that are much harder to follow. > * will I be forced to be on Facebook to get this info? That I have > avoided so far. > I've found the class-specific FB groups for most long trails have great real-time information. I know plenty of hikers that use their trail name + some other time (e.g. a first time) to create an account that is not tied to their full name. The mobile website is reasonable (as opposed to the bloated-as iOS app). > A lot of this will be new for me. In ?96 I used Wolf?s guidebook and list > of maps and I followed Ray and Jenny?s route though New Mexico. It?s been > so long since I did the CDT that even the parts that are the same will feel > new. And I?m going to hike most of it the opposite direction. It will be > exciting to see actual trail. If they exist. I?d like to have paper maps > that have the route on them in addition to Guthook? Maybe if anyone knows > of a better app ?-let me know. Are Jonathan Ley?s maps still accurate? Is > there something out there of which I am unaware? > I used Guthook with skimming JLey for the day or so ahead. (Guthook comments often refer to JLey where it matters most.) Some of his alternates are excellent, such as La Ventana Natural Arch. Others, not so much. (Should I step over this fence in front of a game camera and a no trespassing sign? ?) This was last year (2018). > I won?t be on trail until next April. ?21. The first time I had piles of > forest service and BLM maps in every resupply. So this time I was hoping > for info that was little more compressed and simpler. Maybe even had a > trail on the map. Large swaths of the trail are being completed, but it's actually more important to be aware of when you must *not* follow the trail even if it's signed. I recall an 8 mile dead end in NM (that will eventually connect to something) and a few routes in CO/WY that were clear as mud (easier just to not follow the signed trail). > I?m not expecting anything as obvious as the AT or PCT but I have hopes > that it will be less of me just heading from Canada to Mexico with map and > compass whatever random, stumbling way I can figure out. > Choose your own adventure is still alive and well on the CDT. Embrace it! > I plan to buy some sort of GPS messaging device before I go. Which one I?m > not sure. Spot? INREACH? > InReach is useful for two-way messaging. If you like multi-functional gear, it's an obvious call. (Yes, Spot X is a thing, but I don't have much confidence in it. Iridium works well.) InReach weather is pretty worthless, IMO. Its spot forecasting isn't good enough to be accurate (I've stood in falling snow with a 0% chance). Worse, specifically because it's trying to be a spot forecast, it misses the big stuff (think all the things weather.gov would warn about if you had access such as flooding, windstorms, or lightning). A concerned friend at home sending you updates would be more helpful. From jbruins at gmail.com Tue Jul 14 20:23:25 2020 From: jbruins at gmail.com (Jay Bruins) Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2020 18:23:25 -0700 Subject: [pct-l] Pct-L Digest, Vol 132, Issue 2 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: A "soft" copy would be digital as opposed to a "hard", paper copy. A note on JLey: while the Avenza maps are by far the easiest format to reference, however, you should also download a copy of the current maps as some of my frustrations were definitely caused by not referencing the latest, which other hikers were sometimes better about. Armstrong On Mon, Jul 13, 2020 at 10:36 AM marmot marmot wrote: > Thank you. What do you mean by a soft copy of Ley?s map? I don?t > understand the use of the word. I?m guessing that that info is better than > the sometimes 20 year old maps that were available in ?96. A few years ago > I rehiked the San Juans. I was amazed at the amount of trail and signs. I > touched and sometimes hugged those signs. > Marmot > > Sent from my iPhone > > > On Jul 13, 2020, at 10:22 AM, Tim Umstead wrote: > > > > ? > >> > >> > >> We did the CDT in 2017 and we choise to hike the Gila high route. The > >> offical route has very little water on it and In '17 most of the sources > >> were dry. The Gila high route starts after Doc Campbell's. It stays > above > >> the Gila, to the souh, and had plenty of water souces. It also had a > lot > >> of pine trees keeping it cooler then the river valley. The high route > was > >> solid trail, which is uncommon in NM. The high route does cross the > Gila > >> toward the end of the Gila alt, so you have a choise of finishing the > high > >> route or the Gila alt, a little ways before Snow Lake. > >> > > > > > >> I'm not the greatest fan with Guthooks app, but it is the only option on > >> the CDT. We carried paper maps, Gunhook's app, and a soft copy of Ley's > >> maps. As our trip progressed I relayed more and more on the app, but I > >> still carried the maps. Especially on the CDT, being able to, very > >> quickly, know where I was made my navagation a lot easier. Becarful > with > >> the social infor on Guthooks app. The use of that information is hit > and > >> miss. You might read about a water tank being dry and when you get > there > >> find it full. Then rereading the social entry you discover that it was > 3 > >> years old. I would normaly argue that old data should be deleted, but I > >> remember one entry that was over five years old. It gave directions on > >> what colored wires had to be connected where to get the water pump > >> running. Without that information we would have had a long dry walk to > the > >> next water source. > >> > > > > Ley map: I wish he would cut out all the very old information. That > being > > said Ley's maps showed alt's that the app and maps did not have. There > > were times this was very useful. I is not a big deal to get an app like > > Avenza Maps and a soft copy of Ley's maps. That way they can be > consulted > > as necessary. > > > > The Ravens > > PCT 96, 15, CDT 17, AT 19 > > _______________________________________________ > > Pct-L mailing list > > Pct-L at backcountry.net > > To unsubscribe, or change options visit: > > http://mailman.backcountry.net/mailman/listinfo/pct-l > > > > List Archives: > > http://mailman.backcountry.net/pipermail/pct-l/ > > All content is copyrighted by the respective authors. > > Reproduction is prohibited without express permission. > _______________________________________________ > Pct-L mailing list > Pct-L at backcountry.net > To unsubscribe, or change options visit: > http://mailman.backcountry.net/mailman/listinfo/pct-l > > List Archives: > http://mailman.backcountry.net/pipermail/pct-l/ > All content is copyrighted by the respective authors. > Reproduction is prohibited without express permission. From JimLBanks at verizon.net Tue Jul 14 20:43:36 2020 From: JimLBanks at verizon.net (JimLBanks at verizon.net) Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2020 18:43:36 -0700 Subject: [pct-l] Boston and Cubby References: <000a01d65a49$5c03be70$140b3b50$.ref@verizon.net> Message-ID: <000a01d65a49$5c03be70$140b3b50$@verizon.net> Wow, the PCT list serve hasn't seen this much action in a long time, so while everyone is focusing on the list I will ask a question that I have been wondering about for some time. There were two women, trail names Boston and Cubby who did the triple crown (and more). The time frame was maybe 10 or 11 years ago to maybe 8 years ago (maybe more I can't remember for sure). They had the best Trail Journals I ever followed. Does anyone know where they are today? Are they still hiking? I-Beam From carlito at gmail.com Tue Jul 14 21:51:39 2020 From: carlito at gmail.com (Carl Siechert) Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2020 19:51:39 -0700 Subject: [pct-l] Mad Monte... In-Reply-To: References: <202007150008.06F08CIu010931@server-f.oakapple.net> Message-ID: Yes, Mad Monte Dodge is another Class of 1977 thru-hiking alum. As for Warner Springs Monty, I lost count of how many times he has thru'ed. On Tue, Jul 14, 2020 at 5:16 PM Jeffrey Olson wrote: > https://pbase.com/mad_monte1/image/56717023 > > How about Warner Springs Monty? > > On 7/14/2020 6:08 PM, David Hough reading PCT-L wrote: > > Monte Dodge - I wonder too. He wore a bear suit at the 2002 kickoff. > > I don't remember if he completed a through hike, but he certainly did > some > > big pieces. > > > > https://pbase.com/mad_monte1/profile > > _______________________________________________ > Pct-L mailing list > Pct-L at backcountry.net > To unsubscribe, or change options visit: > http://mailman.backcountry.net/mailman/listinfo/pct-l > > List Archives: > http://mailman.backcountry.net/pipermail/pct-l/ > All content is copyrighted by the respective authors. > Reproduction is prohibited without express permission. > From carlito at gmail.com Tue Jul 14 22:13:55 2020 From: carlito at gmail.com (Carl Siechert) Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2020 20:13:55 -0700 Subject: [pct-l] 1974 article in the Mountaineer about the "proposed" PCT In-Reply-To: <4fcad9ed-3112-534a-2d48-a46d2f20a165@gmail.com> References: <89e2ca0c-5930-0a83-0ba7-c492a307abf4@gmail.com> <4fcad9ed-3112-534a-2d48-a46d2f20a165@gmail.com> Message-ID: Wow, good stuff... "...destroy a man's living just because a lot of bums want to walk on a trail." (Yeah, that pretty well sums it up!) "You can put up a chain-link fence along Buckman Springs Road to keep the idiots out -- or else give us a license to shoot 'em down with shotguns." FWIW, the temporary route in the '70s missed the Hook ranch (south of Boulder Oaks) altogether; we followed paved Cameron Raod a few miles to the east. But apparently the ranchers won. The line on the map shown in the article -- and the proposed route shown in the '74 guidebook -- went along the east side of Cottonwood Valley. But the final trail hugs Buckman Springs Road on the west side of the valley, just as the ranchers wanted. On Tue, Jul 14, 2020 at 5:20 PM Jeffrey Olson wrote: > https://pbase.com/mad_monte1/image/62981508 > https://pbase.com/mad_monte1/image/62980977 > _______________________________________________ > Pct-L mailing list > Pct-L at backcountry.net > To unsubscribe, or change options visit: > http://mailman.backcountry.net/mailman/listinfo/pct-l > > List Archives: > http://mailman.backcountry.net/pipermail/pct-l/ > All content is copyrighted by the respective authors. > Reproduction is prohibited without express permission. > From richardb10 at live.com Tue Jul 14 22:27:37 2020 From: richardb10 at live.com (Richard Brinkman) Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2020 20:27:37 -0700 Subject: [pct-l] Mad Monte... In-Reply-To: References: <202007150008.06F08CIu010931@server-f.oakapple.net> Message-ID: Monte Dodge also has a good photo of a Bigfoot print from that hike. APB out for Squatch to fully bring the list even further back to life (this has been great, thank you)... The Bigfoot print said his name was Darrell... -----Original Message----- From: Pct-L [mailto:pct-l-bounces at backcountry.net] On Behalf Of Carl Siechert Sent: Tuesday, July 14, 2020 7:52 PM To: pct-l Subject: Re: [pct-l] Mad Monte... Yes, Mad Monte Dodge is another Class of 1977 thru-hiking alum. As for Warner Springs Monty, I lost count of how many times he has thru'ed. On Tue, Jul 14, 2020 at 5:16 PM Jeffrey Olson wrote: > https://pbase.com/mad_monte1/image/56717023 > > How about Warner Springs Monty? > > On 7/14/2020 6:08 PM, David Hough reading PCT-L wrote: > > Monte Dodge - I wonder too. He wore a bear suit at the 2002 kickoff. > > I don't remember if he completed a through hike, but he certainly did > some > > big pieces. > > > > https://pbase.com/mad_monte1/profile > > _______________________________________________ > Pct-L mailing list > Pct-L at backcountry.net > To unsubscribe, or change options visit: > http://mailman.backcountry.net/mailman/listinfo/pct-l > > List Archives: > http://mailman.backcountry.net/pipermail/pct-l/ > All content is copyrighted by the respective authors. > Reproduction is prohibited without express permission. > _______________________________________________ Pct-L mailing list Pct-L at backcountry.net To unsubscribe, or change options visit: http://mailman.backcountry.net/mailman/listinfo/pct-l List Archives: http://mailman.backcountry.net/pipermail/pct-l/ All content is copyrighted by the respective authors. Reproduction is prohibited without express permission. From marmotwestvanc at hotmail.com Tue Jul 14 23:35:28 2020 From: marmotwestvanc at hotmail.com (marmot marmot) Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2020 04:35:28 +0000 Subject: [pct-l] Thank you Message-ID: Again thank you everyone for all the CDT info. If anyone thinks of anything else I?m open to combining lots of sources Marmot Sent from my iPhone From mikeflan at att.net Mon Jul 20 08:03:09 2020 From: mikeflan at att.net (Mike Flannigan) Date: Mon, 20 Jul 2020 08:03:09 -0500 Subject: [pct-l] dayhikes on the PCT In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <21e34297-3bbe-c8b7-7d8d-dd2cf553c2e1@att.net> Thanks for this trip report. Nice to see these reports. Mike On 7/11/20 12:00 PM, pct-l-request at backcountry.net wrote: > I have recently taken short dayhikes in sections J, P, Q, and R. > I didn't notice any hikers that I would identify as through hikers, though > some might have fooled me. > > The J started from the Tamarack trailhead parking area off Blue Lakes Road, > in mid-June. Going southbound, there were trees across the trail every > half mile or so, some of which might have been problematic for stock. > I was stopped by a tricky ice gully on the north side of Raymond Peak. > Some younger people crossed it carefully even as I watched, but it was no place > for wobbly elderly knees and ankles. At least one person had either > fallen or glissaded all the way to the bottom. > > Schaffer's book shows the former PCT route which dropped about 500' and > then climbed back up, presumably to avoid that problem. I wasn't looking > carefully and didn't notice any sign of the former route. There were also > indications that some people had hiked up and over to avoid the problem, > but it was a steep loose slope that was also unattractive to elderly ankles. > > The next day I went toward The Nipple and made it up to the ridge viewpoint > just below it, around 8800'. The wind was blowing significantly though > and taking all the pleasure out of an otherwise clear sunny day. No > trees were down on this small part of the trail. > > The next hikes were over July 4 weekend. > > P started from Gumboot Trailhead and I went east (south) for about four > miles. No tree problems on the trail here. > > Q started from Etna Summit and went north for about four miles to a > "campsite" in a saddle. If one's only criterion were excellent views of > sunrise and sunset, it's outstanding, but pretty uncomfortable from pretty > much every other perspective. There are better campsites in the woods > earlier where the ridge briefly broadens after entering the wilderness, > and again shortly thereafter by a register for comments. > The parking area at Etna Summit was pretty full. > > While in the lot I overheard a conversation among hikers who had just completed > Q north to Grider Creek. Once off the ridge and in the Grider Creek > drainage, the overgrown brush and > down timber were formidable and the trail elusive. > I remember the trail being overgrown normally > when I did it southbound 15 years ago, > but the current down timber reflects trail maintenance > deferred, probably until next year. That other time I ended up camping > on an old logging road, halfway up the canyon. > > R encompassed the trail from Wards Fork Gap to about half a mile west of > the road to Reeves Ranch Springs. The trail here was in pretty good > shape, but the signs on the Forest Service access roads were not. > Considering it was July 4 weekend, there were very few other people out > and about. But plenty of cows in some places. There was plenty of > water near Bearground Springs. The wildflowers were FANTASTIC. > In a normal year, through hikers probably miss the peak of the season. > In a normal year, there would be snow problems here and there in R, > but I encountered none. > > There were lots of tourists from all over at Yreka, Weed, and Redding. > Persons serving the public were properly masked, but the public... not so > much. I followed Bay Area rules and masked up indoors except while > actually eating and drinking. I enjoyed the Paystreak in Etna - the Etna > Brewery seems to be closed for the duration - but most people were not masked. > > Ignore any websites that indicate the Etna Brewery or Paystreak having > taprooms in Yreka. Both have been closed for a while. > But while dining at the Black Bear, I discovered Fall River Hexagenia from > Redding, and made a point of visiting their taproom on my way home.