From airecrew09 at gmail.com Wed Jan 3 21:15:08 2018 From: airecrew09 at gmail.com (Pat Wormington) Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2018 19:15:08 -0800 Subject: [pct-l] Bicycles allowed in the Wilderness HR1349 Tom McClintock CA US Congressman Message-ID: <4EFD50AA-34AF-4B9D-ABFC-D30A9332631D@gmail.com> I was informed by the Forest Service today that Tom McClintock,R, in the US House of Representatives, who represents District 4 in California which includes the Plumas National Forest and Tahoe National Forest land that the PCT passes through, introduced HR 1349 in 2017. Bad, Bad news since bicycle riders here locally on the Plumas Forest have destroyed our trails in Lakes Basin. With the trend of high snow levels during storms in the High Sierra, the rain makes the trenches created by the bicycles into gullies. Mt. Elwell trail is no longer hikeable in Lakes Basin on the Plumas Forest, the trail is gone. Obviously McClintock hasn?t ever experienced the disregard bicycle riders have for the right of way rules posted on trails. Most bikes we see are traveling at maximum speed, more like a thrill ride, oblivious to other users of the trails. I feel sorry for equestrians who would be risking their lives by sharing the trails with speeding bicycles in the Wilderness. Horses are very powerful and a downhill speeding bicycle doesn?t stop on a dime. Mt. Bikers have added rock to our trails making it impossible to see wildlife, walking on noisy rock. Backpackers in the Wilderness don?t want to backpack on rocked trails. Nice soft trail tread that is easy on our feet is more desirable to hike on. Pat Wormington PCT 2009 From JimLBanks at verizon.net Wed Jan 3 22:10:37 2018 From: JimLBanks at verizon.net (Jim Banks) Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2018 20:10:37 -0800 Subject: [pct-l] Bicycles allowed in the Wilderness HR1349 Tom McClintock CA US Congressman In-Reply-To: <4EFD50AA-34AF-4B9D-ABFC-D30A9332631D@gmail.com> References: <4EFD50AA-34AF-4B9D-ABFC-D30A9332631D@gmail.com> Message-ID: <000001d38511$fb019700$f104c500$@verizon.net> And Dana Rohrabacher, who represents a portion of Orange County in Southern California, is a co-sponsor of this legislation. Rohrabacher is one of 24 Republican Congressmen whose district went for Clinton in the last election and who are being targeted by Democrats in this fall's election. Rohrabacher has been a Congressman for many years, but his winning margin has been decreasing in each election. If you live in his district, let him know how you feel about this legislation. It may not do any good since he is a co-sponsor, but with the prospect of a very tight election this November, maybe he will change his position if he hears from enough of us. If this legislation passes, it will forever change the PCT and other wilderness trails in a very negative way. This has to be stopped now. So no matter who your Congressman/Congresswoman is, let them know how you feel about this. Jim Banks -----Original Message----- From: Pct-L [mailto:pct-l-bounces at backcountry.net] On Behalf Of Pat Wormington Sent: Wednesday, January 3, 2018 7:15 PM To: pct-l at backcountry.net Subject: [pct-l] Bicycles allowed in the Wilderness HR1349 Tom McClintock CA US Congressman I was informed by the Forest Service today that Tom McClintock,R, in the US House of Representatives, who represents District 4 in California which includes the Plumas National Forest and Tahoe National Forest land that the PCT passes through, introduced HR 1349 in 2017. Bad, Bad news since bicycle riders here locally on the Plumas Forest have destroyed our trails in Lakes Basin. With the trend of high snow levels during storms in the High Sierra, the rain makes the trenches created by the bicycles into gullies. Mt. Elwell trail is no longer hikeable in Lakes Basin on the Plumas Forest, the trail is gone. Obviously McClintock hasn?t ever experienced the disregard bicycle riders have for the right of way rules posted on trails. Most bikes we see are traveling at maximum speed, more like a thrill ride, oblivious to other users of the trails. I feel sorry for equestrians who would be risking their lives by sharing the trails with speeding bicycles in the Wilderness. Horses are very powerful and a downhill speeding bicycle doesn?t stop on a dime. Mt. Bikers have added rock to our trails making it impossible to see wildlife, walking on noisy rock. Backpackers in the Wilderness don?t want to backpack on rocked trails. Nice soft trail tread that is easy on our feet is more desirable to hike on. Pat Wormington PCT 2009 _______________________________________________ Pct-L mailing list Pct-L at backcountry.net To unsubscribe, or change options visit: http://mailman.backcountry.net/mailman/listinfo/pct-l List Archives: http://mailman.backcountry.net/pipermail/pct-l/ All content is copyrighted by the respective authors. Reproduction is prohibited without express permission. From gary_schenk at verizon.net Mon Jan 8 08:26:42 2018 From: gary_schenk at verizon.net (Gary Schenk) Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2018 09:26:42 -0500 Subject: [pct-l] Angeles NF Bans Stoves for 2018 Message-ID: <160d62a92cb-1726-276ab@webjas-vad116.srv.aolmail.net> New fire and stove restrictions on the Angeles for 1018. No campfires or stoves, apparently even in developed campgrounds. https://www.fs.usda.gov/Internet/FSE_DOCUMENTS/fseprd568359.pdf Gary From jdrewsmith at gmail.com Mon Jan 8 10:11:02 2018 From: jdrewsmith at gmail.com (Drew Smith) Date: Mon, 08 Jan 2018 16:11:02 +0000 Subject: [pct-l] Fwd: Angeles NF Bans Stoves for 2018 In-Reply-To: References: <160d62a92cb-1726-276ab@webjas-vad116.srv.aolmail.net> Message-ID: Another example of their typical sloppy and ambiguous orders. A "stove fire" might reasonably be interpreted as a wood-burning stove, and I'll bet that was their intent. Otherwise they would be banning Coleman stoves and stoves within RVs. I find that implausible. Note how the author confuses "except" with "exempt" in the second section. Do they give a second's thought to these orders? They obviously don't bother to proofread them. On Mon, Jan 8, 2018 at 7:26 AM Gary Schenk wrote: > New fire and stove restrictions on the Angeles for 1018. No campfires or > stoves, apparently even in developed campgrounds. > https://www.fs.usda.gov/Internet/FSE_DOCUMENTS/fseprd568359.pdf > > Gary > _______________________________________________ > Pct-L mailing list > Pct-L at backcountry.net > To unsubscribe, or change options visit: > http://mailman.backcountry.net/mailman/listinfo/pct-l > > List Archives: > http://mailman.backcountry.net/pipermail/pct-l/ > All content is copyrighted by the respective authors. > Reproduction is prohibited without express permission. > -- Walking to the light -- Walking to the light From jbruins at gmail.com Mon Jan 8 10:51:32 2018 From: jbruins at gmail.com (Jay Bruins) Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2018 08:51:32 -0800 Subject: [pct-l] Fwd: Angeles NF Bans Stoves for 2018 In-Reply-To: References: <160d62a92cb-1726-276ab@webjas-vad116.srv.aolmail.net> Message-ID: <00961877-CDDE-4450-8E42-2615A4450577@gmail.com> Sorry, but it?s not ambiguous. The cover letter (second page of the PDF) explains, in plain English, their intent to ban stoves. As ?sloppy? as they might have been in proofreading, just reading rest of the provided document would have made their intent clear. Moreover the order itself, refers to the law directly. The law can be found here: https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/36/261.52 Cornell?s site is convenient in that the definition for ?stove fire? hyperlinks to the legal definition from 261.2. From there, you can look at the definition of ?campfire?, too. This California fire season has created a natural resource disaster. Managing it is not something I?d wish on anyone. Armstrong > On Jan 8, 2018, at 8:11 AM, Drew Smith wrote: > > Another example of their typical sloppy and ambiguous orders. A "stove > fire" might reasonably be interpreted as a wood-burning stove, and I'll bet > that was their intent. Otherwise they would be banning Coleman stoves and > stoves within RVs. I find that implausible. > > Note how the author confuses "except" with "exempt" in the second section. > Do they give a second's thought to these orders? They obviously don't > bother to proofread them. > >> On Mon, Jan 8, 2018 at 7:26 AM Gary Schenk wrote: >> >> New fire and stove restrictions on the Angeles for 1018. No campfires or >> stoves, apparently even in developed campgrounds. >> https://www.fs.usda.gov/Internet/FSE_DOCUMENTS/fseprd568359.pdf >> >> Gary >> _______________________________________________ >> Pct-L mailing list >> Pct-L at backcountry.net >> To unsubscribe, or change options visit: >> http://mailman.backcountry.net/mailman/listinfo/pct-l >> >> List Archives: >> http://mailman.backcountry.net/pipermail/pct-l/ >> All content is copyrighted by the respective authors. >> Reproduction is prohibited without express permission. > > > -- > Walking to the light > > > -- > Walking to the light > _______________________________________________ > Pct-L mailing list > Pct-L at backcountry.net > To unsubscribe, or change options visit: > http://mailman.backcountry.net/mailman/listinfo/pct-l > > List Archives: > http://mailman.backcountry.net/pipermail/pct-l/ > All content is copyrighted by the respective authors. > Reproduction is prohibited without express permission. From jdrewsmith at gmail.com Mon Jan 8 12:28:46 2018 From: jdrewsmith at gmail.com (Drew Smith) Date: Mon, 08 Jan 2018 18:28:46 +0000 Subject: [pct-l] Fwd: Angeles NF Bans Stoves for 2018 In-Reply-To: <00961877-CDDE-4450-8E42-2615A4450577@gmail.com> References: <160d62a92cb-1726-276ab@webjas-vad116.srv.aolmail.net> <00961877-CDDE-4450-8E42-2615A4450577@gmail.com> Message-ID: Jay, thanks for the link. It makes the order less ambiguous (pressurized stoves are explicitly included in the definition of stove fire) but I suspect it still is ill-worded. Since no exception is made for stove fires within vehicles (as is made for smoking), the letter of the order would make cooking (or running a gas heater) within an RV illegal and punishable. I very much doubt that this is the intent. Unless this is indeed the case (and good luck enforcing that), I stand by my assessment that this is a sloppily-worded order. On Mon, Jan 8, 2018 at 9:51 AM Jay Bruins wrote: > Sorry, but it?s not ambiguous. > > The cover letter (second page of the PDF) explains, in plain English, > their intent to ban stoves. As ?sloppy? as they might have been in > proofreading, just reading rest of the provided document would have made > their intent clear. > > Moreover the order itself, refers to the law directly. The law can be > found here: > https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/36/261.52 > Cornell?s site is convenient in that the definition for ?stove fire? > hyperlinks to the legal definition from 261.2. From there, you can look at > the definition of ?campfire?, too. > > This California fire season has created a natural resource disaster. > Managing it is not something I?d wish on anyone. > > Armstrong > > On Jan 8, 2018, at 8:11 AM, Drew Smith wrote: > > Another example of their typical sloppy and ambiguous orders. A "stove > fire" might reasonably be interpreted as a wood-burning stove, and I'll bet > that was their intent. Otherwise they would be banning Coleman stoves and > stoves within RVs. I find that implausible. > > Note how the author confuses "except" with "exempt" in the second section. > Do they give a second's thought to these orders? They obviously don't > bother to proofread them. > > On Mon, Jan 8, 2018 at 7:26 AM Gary Schenk > wrote: > > New fire and stove restrictions on the Angeles for 1018. No campfires or > > stoves, apparently even in developed campgrounds. > > https://www.fs.usda.gov/Internet/FSE_DOCUMENTS/fseprd568359.pdf > > > Gary > > _______________________________________________ > > Pct-L mailing list > > Pct-L at backcountry.net > > To unsubscribe, or change options visit: > > http://mailman.backcountry.net/mailman/listinfo/pct-l > > > List Archives: > > http://mailman.backcountry.net/pipermail/pct-l/ > > All content is copyrighted by the respective authors. > > Reproduction is prohibited without express permission. > > > > > -- > > Walking to the light > > > -- > Walking to the light > > > _______________________________________________ > Pct-L mailing list > Pct-L at backcountry.net > To unsubscribe, or change options visit: > http://mailman.backcountry.net/mailman/listinfo/pct-l > > List Archives: > http://mailman.backcountry.net/pipermail/pct-l/ > All content is copyrighted by the respective authors. > Reproduction is prohibited without express permission. > > -- Walking to the light From dylanpatrickclark at gmail.com Mon Jan 8 11:16:39 2018 From: dylanpatrickclark at gmail.com (dylan patrick clark) Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2018 09:16:39 -0800 Subject: [pct-l] Fwd: Angeles NF Bans Stoves for 2018 In-Reply-To: <00961877-CDDE-4450-8E42-2615A4450577@gmail.com> References: <160d62a92cb-1726-276ab@webjas-vad116.srv.aolmail.net> <00961877-CDDE-4450-8E42-2615A4450577@gmail.com> Message-ID: "This California fire season has created a natural resource disaster. Managing it is not something I?d wish on anyone." Hear, hear! Time to try no-cook, I guess. ? Death On Mon, Jan 8, 2018 at 8:51 AM, Jay Bruins wrote: > Sorry, but it?s not ambiguous. > > The cover letter (second page of the PDF) explains, in plain English, > their intent to ban stoves. As ?sloppy? as they might have been in > proofreading, just reading rest of the provided document would have made > their intent clear. > > Moreover the order itself, refers to the law directly. The law can be > found here: > https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/36/261.52 > Cornell?s site is convenient in that the definition for ?stove fire? > hyperlinks to the legal definition from 261.2. From there, you can look at > the definition of ?campfire?, too. > > This California fire season has created a natural resource disaster. > Managing it is not something I?d wish on anyone. > > Armstrong > > > On Jan 8, 2018, at 8:11 AM, Drew Smith wrote: > > > > Another example of their typical sloppy and ambiguous orders. A "stove > > fire" might reasonably be interpreted as a wood-burning stove, and I'll > bet > > that was their intent. Otherwise they would be banning Coleman stoves and > > stoves within RVs. I find that implausible. > > > > Note how the author confuses "except" with "exempt" in the second > section. > > Do they give a second's thought to these orders? They obviously don't > > bother to proofread them. > > > >> On Mon, Jan 8, 2018 at 7:26 AM Gary Schenk > wrote: > >> > >> New fire and stove restrictions on the Angeles for 1018. No campfires or > >> stoves, apparently even in developed campgrounds. > >> https://www.fs.usda.gov/Internet/FSE_DOCUMENTS/fseprd568359.pdf > >> > >> Gary > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Pct-L mailing list > >> Pct-L at backcountry.net > >> To unsubscribe, or change options visit: > >> http://mailman.backcountry.net/mailman/listinfo/pct-l > >> > >> List Archives: > >> http://mailman.backcountry.net/pipermail/pct-l/ > >> All content is copyrighted by the respective authors. > >> Reproduction is prohibited without express permission. > > > > > > -- > > Walking to the light > > > > > > -- > > Walking to the light > > _______________________________________________ > > Pct-L mailing list > > Pct-L at backcountry.net > > To unsubscribe, or change options visit: > > http://mailman.backcountry.net/mailman/listinfo/pct-l > > > > List Archives: > > http://mailman.backcountry.net/pipermail/pct-l/ > > All content is copyrighted by the respective authors. > > Reproduction is prohibited without express permission. > _______________________________________________ > Pct-L mailing list > Pct-L at backcountry.net > To unsubscribe, or change options visit: > http://mailman.backcountry.net/mailman/listinfo/pct-l > > List Archives: > http://mailman.backcountry.net/pipermail/pct-l/ > All content is copyrighted by the respective authors. > Reproduction is prohibited without express permission. > From jbruins at gmail.com Mon Jan 8 15:23:04 2018 From: jbruins at gmail.com (Jay Bruins) Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2018 13:23:04 -0800 Subject: [pct-l] Fwd: Angeles NF Bans Stoves for 2018 In-Reply-To: References: <160d62a92cb-1726-276ab@webjas-vad116.srv.aolmail.net> <00961877-CDDE-4450-8E42-2615A4450577@gmail.com> Message-ID: <48F348A0-B056-4523-8134-D62DF29012A8@gmail.com> Also from 36 CFR 261.2: Campfire means a fire, not within any building, mobile home or living accommodation mounted on a motor vehicle , which is used for cooking, personal warmth, lighting, ceremonial, or esthetic purposes. Fire includes campfire . Cheers, Armstrong > On Jan 8, 2018, at 10:28 AM, Drew Smith wrote: > > Jay, thanks for the link. It makes the order less ambiguous (pressurized stoves are explicitly included in the definition of stove fire) but I suspect it still is ill-worded. Since no exception is made for stove fires within vehicles (as is made for smoking), the letter of the order would make cooking (or running a gas heater) within an RV illegal and punishable. I very much doubt that this is the intent. > > Unless this is indeed the case (and good luck enforcing that), I stand by my assessment that this is a sloppily-worded order. > > On Mon, Jan 8, 2018 at 9:51 AM Jay Bruins > wrote: > Sorry, but it?s not ambiguous. > > The cover letter (second page of the PDF) explains, in plain English, their intent to ban stoves. As ?sloppy? as they might have been in proofreading, just reading rest of the provided document would have made their intent clear. > > Moreover the order itself, refers to the law directly. The law can be found here: > https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/36/261.52 > Cornell?s site is convenient in that the definition for ?stove fire? hyperlinks to the legal definition from 261.2. From there, you can look at the definition of ?campfire?, too. > > This California fire season has created a natural resource disaster. Managing it is not something I?d wish on anyone. > > Armstrong > > On Jan 8, 2018, at 8:11 AM, Drew Smith > wrote: > >> Another example of their typical sloppy and ambiguous orders. A "stove >> fire" might reasonably be interpreted as a wood-burning stove, and I'll bet >> that was their intent. Otherwise they would be banning Coleman stoves and >> stoves within RVs. I find that implausible. >> >> Note how the author confuses "except" with "exempt" in the second section. >> Do they give a second's thought to these orders? They obviously don't >> bother to proofread them. >> >> On Mon, Jan 8, 2018 at 7:26 AM Gary Schenk > wrote: >> >>> New fire and stove restrictions on the Angeles for 1018. No campfires or >>> stoves, apparently even in developed campgrounds. >>> https://www.fs.usda.gov/Internet/FSE_DOCUMENTS/fseprd568359.pdf >>> >>> Gary >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Pct-L mailing list >>> Pct-L at backcountry.net >>> To unsubscribe, or change options visit: >>> http://mailman.backcountry.net/mailman/listinfo/pct-l >>> >>> List Archives: >>> http://mailman.backcountry.net/pipermail/pct-l/ >>> All content is copyrighted by the respective authors. >>> Reproduction is prohibited without express permission. >>> >> >> >> -- > >> Walking to the light > >> > >> >> -- >> Walking to the light > > >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Pct-L mailing list >> Pct-L at backcountry.net >> To unsubscribe, or change options visit: >> http://mailman.backcountry.net/mailman/listinfo/pct-l >> >> List Archives: >> http://mailman.backcountry.net/pipermail/pct-l/ >> All content is copyrighted by the respective authors. >> Reproduction is prohibited without express permission. > > > -- > Walking to the light From scott.diamond.mail at gmail.com Mon Jan 8 16:36:36 2018 From: scott.diamond.mail at gmail.com (Scott Diamond) Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2018 14:36:36 -0800 Subject: [pct-l] Fwd: Angeles NF Bans Stoves for 2018 In-Reply-To: <48F348A0-B056-4523-8134-D62DF29012A8@gmail.com> References: <160d62a92cb-1726-276ab@webjas-vad116.srv.aolmail.net> <00961877-CDDE-4450-8E42-2615A4450577@gmail.com> <48F348A0-B056-4523-8134-D62DF29012A8@gmail.com> Message-ID: Well, at least they are banning all stoves. If you are concerned about fires then it makes much more sense to me than, IMO, arbitrary banning of just alcohol stoves. -Rover > >> > >> On Mon, Jan 8, 2018 at 7:26 AM Gary Schenk > wrote: > >> > >>> New fire and stove restrictions on the Angeles for 1018. No campfires > or > >>> stoves, apparently even in developed campgrounds. > >>> https://www.fs.usda.gov/Internet/FSE_DOCUMENTS/fseprd568359.pdf < > https://www.fs.usda.gov/Internet/FSE_DOCUMENTS/fseprd568359.pdf> > >>> > >>> Gary > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> Pct-L mailing list > >>> Pct-L at backcountry.net > >>> To unsubscribe, or change options visit: > >>> http://mailman.backcountry.net/mailman/listinfo/pct-l < > http://mailman.backcountry.net/mailman/listinfo/pct-l> > >>> > >>> List Archives: > >>> http://mailman.backcountry.net/pipermail/pct-l/ < > http://mailman.backcountry.net/pipermail/pct-l/> > >>> All content is copyrighted by the respective authors. > >>> Reproduction is prohibited without express permission. > >>> > >> From richardb10 at live.com Mon Jan 8 17:28:07 2018 From: richardb10 at live.com (Richard Brinkman) Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2018 23:28:07 +0000 Subject: [pct-l] Fwd: Angeles NF Bans Stoves for 2018 In-Reply-To: References: <160d62a92cb-1726-276ab@webjas-vad116.srv.aolmail.net> <00961877-CDDE-4450-8E42-2615A4450577@gmail.com> Message-ID: I didn't plan on being cookless but my Esbit was banned in California, so I was until Oregon, who four days in banned it as well. Cookless was not bad and if I hiked again, I would go cookless. Roadwalker '15 -----Original Message----- From: Pct-L [mailto:pct-l-bounces at backcountry.net] On Behalf Of dylan patrick clark Sent: Monday, January 08, 2018 9:17 AM To: Jay Bruins Cc: pct-l at backcountry.net Subject: Re: [pct-l] Fwd: Angeles NF Bans Stoves for 2018 "This California fire season has created a natural resource disaster. Managing it is not something I?d wish on anyone." Hear, hear! Time to try no-cook, I guess. ? Death On Mon, Jan 8, 2018 at 8:51 AM, Jay Bruins wrote: > Sorry, but it?s not ambiguous. > > The cover letter (second page of the PDF) explains, in plain English, > their intent to ban stoves. As ?sloppy? as they might have been in > proofreading, just reading rest of the provided document would have > made their intent clear. > > Moreover the order itself, refers to the law directly. The law can be > found here: > https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/36/261.52 > Cornell?s site is convenient in that the definition for ?stove fire? > hyperlinks to the legal definition from 261.2. From there, you can > look at the definition of ?campfire?, too. > > This California fire season has created a natural resource disaster. > Managing it is not something I?d wish on anyone. > > Armstrong > > > On Jan 8, 2018, at 8:11 AM, Drew Smith wrote: > > > > Another example of their typical sloppy and ambiguous orders. A > > "stove fire" might reasonably be interpreted as a wood-burning > > stove, and I'll > bet > > that was their intent. Otherwise they would be banning Coleman > > stoves and stoves within RVs. I find that implausible. > > > > Note how the author confuses "except" with "exempt" in the second > section. > > Do they give a second's thought to these orders? They obviously > > don't bother to proofread them. > > > >> On Mon, Jan 8, 2018 at 7:26 AM Gary Schenk > >> > wrote: > >> > >> New fire and stove restrictions on the Angeles for 1018. No > >> campfires or stoves, apparently even in developed campgrounds. > >> https://www.fs.usda.gov/Internet/FSE_DOCUMENTS/fseprd568359.pdf > >> > >> Gary > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Pct-L mailing list > >> Pct-L at backcountry.net > >> To unsubscribe, or change options visit: > >> http://mailman.backcountry.net/mailman/listinfo/pct-l > >> > >> List Archives: > >> http://mailman.backcountry.net/pipermail/pct-l/ > >> All content is copyrighted by the respective authors. > >> Reproduction is prohibited without express permission. > > > > > > -- > > Walking to the light > > > > > > -- > > Walking to the light > > _______________________________________________ > > Pct-L mailing list > > Pct-L at backcountry.net > > To unsubscribe, or change options visit: > > http://mailman.backcountry.net/mailman/listinfo/pct-l > > > > List Archives: > > http://mailman.backcountry.net/pipermail/pct-l/ > > All content is copyrighted by the respective authors. > > Reproduction is prohibited without express permission. > _______________________________________________ > Pct-L mailing list > Pct-L at backcountry.net > To unsubscribe, or change options visit: > http://mailman.backcountry.net/mailman/listinfo/pct-l > > List Archives: > http://mailman.backcountry.net/pipermail/pct-l/ > All content is copyrighted by the respective authors. > Reproduction is prohibited without express permission. > _______________________________________________ Pct-L mailing list Pct-L at backcountry.net To unsubscribe, or change options visit: http://mailman.backcountry.net/mailman/listinfo/pct-l List Archives: http://mailman.backcountry.net/pipermail/pct-l/ All content is copyrighted by the respective authors. Reproduction is prohibited without express permission. From marmotwestvanc at hotmail.com Mon Jan 8 18:05:55 2018 From: marmotwestvanc at hotmail.com (marmot marmot) Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2018 00:05:55 +0000 Subject: [pct-l] Fires Message-ID: It's not that difficult to go cook less. Any of the instant soups that you can buy in bulk will rehydrate in cold water. It just takes a bit longer. Taste Adventure makes 4 that I know of. They are organic and Vegan. *Instant hummus. *Precooked taco shells. *Soy or mushroom jerky. *Nuts ,dried fruit. *Add dried Eggplant powder to your hummus and you have a sort of Babaganoush. *Almond butter,Cashew butter. Put a fruit tea bag in your plastic bottle let soak on the back of your pack and you have "sun tea". Hibiscus, and dried cherry is good. I've probably hiked 6,000 miles stoveless. Yes, it's easier with one but at least we know we can do it this way. If you want to buy the Alpine Aire meals -- all of the veg ones rehydrate in cold water. I think that any meal which only requires boiling water and not cooking will work that way. I'm sure others have suggestions also. Marmot Sent from my iPhone From tmccullough5439 at gmail.com Mon Jan 8 18:23:39 2018 From: tmccullough5439 at gmail.com (Timothy McCullough) Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2018 16:23:39 -0800 Subject: [pct-l] Fires In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: There is also the option of using flameless heaters. Like the ones that come in MREs. They use a small amount of water to activate. On Jan 8, 2018 16:06, "marmot marmot" wrote: > It's not that difficult to go cook less. Any of the instant soups that you > can buy in bulk will rehydrate in cold water. It just takes a bit longer. > Taste Adventure makes 4 that I know of. They are organic and Vegan. > *Instant hummus. *Precooked taco shells. > *Soy or mushroom jerky. > *Nuts ,dried fruit. > *Add dried Eggplant powder to your hummus and you have a sort of > Babaganoush. *Almond butter,Cashew butter. Put a fruit tea bag in your > plastic bottle let soak on the back of your pack and you have "sun tea". > Hibiscus, and dried cherry is good. I've probably hiked 6,000 miles > stoveless. > Yes, it's easier with one but at least we know we can do it this way. > If you want to buy the Alpine Aire meals -- all of the veg ones rehydrate > in cold water. I think that any meal which only requires boiling water and > not cooking will work that way. > I'm sure others have suggestions also. > Marmot > > Sent from my iPhone > _______________________________________________ > Pct-L mailing list > Pct-L at backcountry.net > To unsubscribe, or change options visit: > http://mailman.backcountry.net/mailman/listinfo/pct-l > > List Archives: > http://mailman.backcountry.net/pipermail/pct-l/ > All content is copyrighted by the respective authors. > Reproduction is prohibited without express permission. > From catherine.middaugh at gmail.com Mon Jan 8 20:03:04 2018 From: catherine.middaugh at gmail.com (Catherine Middaugh) Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2018 18:03:04 -0800 Subject: [pct-l] Fires In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Ugh, I eat hot food at least 2 meals out of 3 and can't imagine going without hot food while hiking in the spring. I've tried going stoveles, but having hot food when you're cold and almost shivering is a godsend. On Mon, Jan 8, 2018 at 4:23 PM, Timothy McCullough < tmccullough5439 at gmail.com> wrote: > There is also the option of using flameless heaters. Like the ones that > come in MREs. They use a small amount of water to activate. > > On Jan 8, 2018 16:06, "marmot marmot" wrote: > > > It's not that difficult to go cook less. Any of the instant soups that > you > > can buy in bulk will rehydrate in cold water. It just takes a bit longer. > > Taste Adventure makes 4 that I know of. They are organic and Vegan. > > *Instant hummus. *Precooked taco shells. > > *Soy or mushroom jerky. > > *Nuts ,dried fruit. > > *Add dried Eggplant powder to your hummus and you have a sort of > > Babaganoush. *Almond butter,Cashew butter. Put a fruit tea bag in your > > plastic bottle let soak on the back of your pack and you have "sun tea". > > Hibiscus, and dried cherry is good. I've probably hiked 6,000 miles > > stoveless. > > Yes, it's easier with one but at least we know we can do it this way. > > If you want to buy the Alpine Aire meals -- all of the veg ones rehydrate > > in cold water. I think that any meal which only requires boiling water > and > > not cooking will work that way. > > I'm sure others have suggestions also. > > Marmot > > > > Sent from my iPhone > > _______________________________________________ > > Pct-L mailing list > > Pct-L at backcountry.net > > To unsubscribe, or change options visit: > > http://mailman.backcountry.net/mailman/listinfo/pct-l > > > > List Archives: > > http://mailman.backcountry.net/pipermail/pct-l/ > > All content is copyrighted by the respective authors. > > Reproduction is prohibited without express permission. > > > _______________________________________________ > Pct-L mailing list > Pct-L at backcountry.net > To unsubscribe, or change options visit: > http://mailman.backcountry.net/mailman/listinfo/pct-l > > List Archives: > http://mailman.backcountry.net/pipermail/pct-l/ > All content is copyrighted by the respective authors. > Reproduction is prohibited without express permission. > From moodyjj at comcast.net Mon Jan 8 21:21:54 2018 From: moodyjj at comcast.net (Jim & Jane Moody) Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2018 22:21:54 -0500 (EST) Subject: [pct-l] Fires In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <305818603.538151.1515468114649@connect.xfinity.com> I've been stoveless for the last 5 or 6 years, through all of OR, WA, and most of MT (and a little bit of CO). I use a lot of the same basic foods I used to cook. The mainstays are freeze-dried meats and veggies from Provident Pantry (beprepared.com). It's clearly a LDS supply business, but they assured me they would sell to Methodists. At home I pre-mix a meat (beef, chicken, turkey, or ham) with a variety of veggies (they offer probably 2 dz). After lunch I add water to the meat/veggy mixture and let it start rehydrating. About an hour before eating I add a carb and some kind of seasoning like bouillon, spice mix, onion dip mix, red pepper flakes, or tabasco. My favorite carbs are instant potatoes, refried bean mix, black bean mix, and hummus. I found that instant rice and pasta turn into glop - they don't rehydrate well in cold water. Freeze-dried cheeses are also an option, to break up the boredom. At dinner time, I can add more potatoes or water if too thick or thin. Lunch is usually a bread (tortilla, muffin, crackers, etc. with shelf-stable meat like pepperoni or summer sausage, hard cheese, mustard, ... Freeze -dried fruit is a good snack at lunch or anytime on the trail. I also eat a lot of peanut butter; I mix peanut butter powder with honey crystals, Nido, and powdered coconut milk,then add water in a small nalgene screw-top container. Trail mix and various bars fill in the gaps of hunger. The time I save by not cooking gives me more time to fantasize about what hot meals I'll order in town. Oh, yeah - breakfast. Pre-mixed packs of granola, bran, freeze dried fruit, and Nido. Add water while taking down tent to let the fruit soften a little. Coffee - although I love hot coffee or hot chocolate, I've found that Starbucks' Via instant packs are surprising good in a liter of cold water - one regular coffee pack and 1 flavored latte together. Mango , pre-mis at > On January 8, 2018 at 7:05 PM marmot marmot wrote: > > > It's not that difficult to go cook less. Any of the instant soups that you can buy in bulk will rehydrate in cold water. It just takes a bit longer. Taste Adventure makes 4 that I know of. They are organic and Vegan. *Instant hummus. *Precooked taco shells. > *Soy or mushroom jerky. > *Nuts ,dried fruit. > *Add dried Eggplant powder to your hummus and you have a sort of Babaganoush. *Almond butter,Cashew butter. Put a fruit tea bag in your plastic bottle let soak on the back of your pack and you have "sun tea". Hibiscus, and dried cherry is good. I've probably hiked 6,000 miles stoveless. > Yes, it's easier with one but at least we know we can do it this way. > If you want to buy the Alpine Aire meals -- all of the veg ones rehydrate in cold water. I think that any meal which only requires boiling water and not cooking will work that way. > I'm sure others have suggestions also. > Marmot > > Sent from my iPhone > _______________________________________________ > Pct-L mailing list > Pct-L at backcountry.net > To unsubscribe, or change options visit: > http://mailman.backcountry.net/mailman/listinfo/pct-l > > List Archives: > http://mailman.backcountry.net/pipermail/pct-l/ > All content is copyrighted by the respective authors. > Reproduction is prohibited without express permission. From marmotwestvanc at hotmail.com Mon Jan 8 21:49:46 2018 From: marmotwestvanc at hotmail.com (marmot marmot) Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2018 03:49:46 +0000 Subject: [pct-l] Stove less Message-ID: The point of this discussion (in this year)is that in addition to the normal almost universal ban on campfires in Southern Calif. there is also a ban on all stoves. Doesn't matter what we would like. Hot chocolate would be nice. It matters what we are allowed to do. So it's time to help the new hikers (and old)imagine how to accomplish making meals without cooking. Marmot Sent from my iPhone From gary_schenk at verizon.net Mon Jan 8 22:07:43 2018 From: gary_schenk at verizon.net (Gary Schenk) Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2018 23:07:43 -0500 Subject: [pct-l] Angeles NF Bans Stoves for 2018 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <160d91a3ad4-171c-666b@webjas-vac160.srv.aolmail.net> Yeah, no tea in the morning will be tough. As for food there's always the climber's favorite: chocolate and dried fruit! Gary -----Original Message----- From: Lyn Turner To: Gary Schenk Cc: pct-l Sent: Mon, Jan 8, 2018 4:16 pm Subject: Re: [pct-l] Angeles NF Bans Stoves for 2018 Oh, I dunno, I?m from the UK, which has its own impenetrable rules and regs. But I can?t hike without coffee! Jeez. Scottish Lyn From brick at brickrobbins.com Tue Jan 9 00:25:45 2018 From: brick at brickrobbins.com (Brick Robbins) Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2018 22:25:45 -0800 Subject: [pct-l] Stove less In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Jan 8, 2018 at 7:49 PM, marmot marmot wrote: > The point of this discussion (in this year)is that in addition to the normal almost universal ban on campfires in Southern Calif. there is also a ban on all stoves. The ban is on in Angeles NF, not all of SoCal Here is the map of the NF http://www.presleyt.net/anforest/tippics/anfmap610x471.gif From marmotwestvanc at hotmail.com Tue Jan 9 07:04:17 2018 From: marmotwestvanc at hotmail.com (marmot marmot) Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2018 13:04:17 +0000 Subject: [pct-l] Stove less In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: You are correct. I was tired and left out words. In numerous jurisdictions in Southern Calif. it is illegal to have open fires Marmot Sent from my iPhone > On Jan 8, 2018, at 10:25 PM, Brick Robbins wrote: > > On Mon, Jan 8, 2018 at 7:49 PM, marmot marmot > wrote: >> The point of this discussion (in this year)is that in addition to the normal almost universal ban on campfires in Southern Calif. there is also a ban on all stoves. > > The ban is on in Angeles NF, not all of SoCal > > Here is the map of the NF > http://www.presleyt.net/anforest/tippics/anfmap610x471.gif > _______________________________________________ > Pct-L mailing list > Pct-L at backcountry.net > To unsubscribe, or change options visit: > http://mailman.backcountry.net/mailman/listinfo/pct-l > > List Archives: > http://mailman.backcountry.net/pipermail/pct-l/ > All content is copyrighted by the respective authors. > Reproduction is prohibited without express permission. From candace at jfred.net Tue Jan 9 09:56:09 2018 From: candace at jfred.net (Candace Frederick) Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2018 07:56:09 -0800 Subject: [pct-l] Stove less In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Living in an area close to the San Bernadino National Forest, I wish it was banned in our area as well. Though, hiking through our forest, I see remnants of fire rings from campers anyway so I doubt it would do much good. I would just rather not lose my house because someone wanted coffee in the morning. On Mon, Jan 8, 2018 at 10:25 PM, Brick Robbins wrote: > On Mon, Jan 8, 2018 at 7:49 PM, marmot marmot > wrote: > > The point of this discussion (in this year)is that in addition to the > normal almost universal ban on campfires in Southern Calif. there is also a > ban on all stoves. > > The ban is on in Angeles NF, not all of SoCal > > Here is the map of the NF > http://www.presleyt.net/anforest/tippics/anfmap610x471.gif > _______________________________________________ > Pct-L mailing list > Pct-L at backcountry.net > To unsubscribe, or change options visit: > http://mailman.backcountry.net/mailman/listinfo/pct-l > > List Archives: > http://mailman.backcountry.net/pipermail/pct-l/ > All content is copyrighted by the respective authors. > Reproduction is prohibited without express permission. > From marmotwestvanc at hotmail.com Tue Jan 9 12:15:36 2018 From: marmotwestvanc at hotmail.com (marmot marmot) Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2018 18:15:36 +0000 Subject: [pct-l] Stove less In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: We just need to educate people. In some parts of the San Bernardino mtns camp fires are allowed at yellow post sites. This is still under certain conditions only. They are never allowed on a fire permit in any area where there is not a ten(maybe 20 can't remember for sure)foot in diameter clear space, if there is ANY wind, you must have a shovel and a way of putting out the fire---buckets of water or dirt. Do any long distance hikers ever have any of those things? Building a fire and having a stove is a responsibility. You arrive at a camp spot late in the day. You leave early in the morning. You are tired. Especially in the beginning 500 miles of the trail you tend to be a bit overwhelmed and pushed to the edge of your abilities. Those of us who have been out there a lot have put out many so called "out" fires. These were clearly made by backpackers and thru hikers (who thought the fire was out). Because those are the only people out there so far from a road. Making campfires is going to go the way of leaving trash on the trail. We wouldn't even think of doing that. I hope the PCT thrus will be in the forefront of this step in direction of caring for the trail. I have my fingers crossed in hopes we don't have any more fires. Let's not add to the fires started naturally,over which we have no control. Over 80% of wild fires started in the U.S. are caused by humans. Marmot Sent from my iPhone > On Jan 9, 2018, at 7:56 AM, Candace Frederick wrote: > > Living in an area close to the San Bernadino National Forest, I wish it was > banned in our area as well. Though, hiking through our forest, I see > remnants of fire rings from campers anyway so I doubt it would do much > good. I would just rather not lose my house because someone wanted coffee > in the morning. > > On Mon, Jan 8, 2018 at 10:25 PM, Brick Robbins > wrote: > >> On Mon, Jan 8, 2018 at 7:49 PM, marmot marmot >> wrote: >>> The point of this discussion (in this year)is that in addition to the >> normal almost universal ban on campfires in Southern Calif. there is also a >> ban on all stoves. >> >> The ban is on in Angeles NF, not all of SoCal >> >> Here is the map of the NF >> http://www.presleyt.net/anforest/tippics/anfmap610x471.gif >> _______________________________________________ >> Pct-L mailing list >> Pct-L at backcountry.net >> To unsubscribe, or change options visit: >> http://mailman.backcountry.net/mailman/listinfo/pct-l >> >> List Archives: >> http://mailman.backcountry.net/pipermail/pct-l/ >> All content is copyrighted by the respective authors. >> Reproduction is prohibited without express permission. >> > _______________________________________________ > Pct-L mailing list > Pct-L at backcountry.net > To unsubscribe, or change options visit: > http://mailman.backcountry.net/mailman/listinfo/pct-l > > List Archives: > http://mailman.backcountry.net/pipermail/pct-l/ > All content is copyrighted by the respective authors. > Reproduction is prohibited without express permission. From groundpounderbill22 at verizon.net Tue Jan 9 14:56:14 2018 From: groundpounderbill22 at verizon.net (William E Frenette) Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2018 15:56:14 -0500 Subject: [pct-l] Stove less In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <160dcb58dca-1726-9e3d5@webjas-vac050.srv.aolmail.net> Funny, never had a camp fire while backpacking but carried my E-TOOL most of the time, habit I guess Sent from AOL Mobile Mail Get the new AOL app: mail.mobile.aol.com On Tuesday, January 9, 2018 marmot marmot wrote: We just need to educate people. In some parts of the San Bernardino mtns camp fires are allowed at yellow post sites. This is still under certain conditions only. They are never allowed on a fire permit in any area where there is not a ten(maybe 20 can't remember for sure)foot in diameter clear space, if there is ANY wind, you must have a shovel and a way of putting out the fire---buckets of water or dirt. Do any long distance hikers ever have any of those things? Building a fire and having a stove is a responsibility. You arrive at a camp spot late in the day. You leave early in the morning. You are tired. Especially in the beginning 500 miles of the trail you tend to be a bit overwhelmed and pushed to the edge of your abilities. Those of us who have been out there a lot have put out many so called "out" fires. These were clearly made by backpackers and thru hikers (who thought the fire was out). Because those are the only people out there so far from a road. Making campfires is going to go the way of leaving trash on the trail. We wouldn't even think of doing that. I hope the PCT thrus will be in the forefront of this step in direction of caring for the trail. I have my fingers crossed in hopes we don't have any more fires. Let's not add to the fires started naturally,over which we have no control. Over 80% of wild fires started in the U.S. are caused by humans. Marmot Sent from my iPhone > On Jan 9, 2018, at 7:56 AM, Candace Frederick wrote: > > Living in an area close to the San Bernadino National Forest, I wish it was > banned in our area as well. Though, hiking through our forest, I see > remnants of fire rings from campers anyway so I doubt it would do much > good. I would just rather not lose my house because someone wanted coffee > in the morning. > > On Mon, Jan 8, 2018 at 10:25 PM, Brick Robbins > wrote: > >> On Mon, Jan 8, 2018 at 7:49 PM, marmot marmot >> wrote: >>> The point of this discussion (in this year)is that in addition to the >> normal almost universal ban on campfires in Southern Calif. there is also a >> ban on all stoves. >> >> The ban is on in Angeles NF, not all of SoCal >> >> Here is the map of the NF >> http://www.presleyt.net/anforest/tippics/anfmap610x471.gif >> _______________________________________________ >> Pct-L mailing list >> Pct-L at backcountry.net >> To unsubscribe, or change options visit: >> http://mailman.backcountry.net/mailman/listinfo/pct-l >> >> List Archives: >> http://mailman.backcountry.net/pipermail/pct-l/ >> All content is copyrighted by the respective authors. >> Reproduction is prohibited without express permission. >> > _______________________________________________ > Pct-L mailing list > Pct-L at backcountry.net > To unsubscribe, or change options visit: > http://mailman.backcountry.net/mailman/listinfo/pct-l > > List Archives: > http://mailman.backcountry.net/pipermail/pct-l/ > All content is copyrighted by the respective authors. > Reproduction is prohibited without express permission. _______________________________________________ Pct-L mailing list Pct-L at backcountry.net To unsubscribe, or change options visit: http://mailman.backcountry.net/mailman/listinfo/pct-l List Archives: http://mailman.backcountry.net/pipermail/pct-l/ All content is copyrighted by the respective authors. Reproduction is prohibited without express permission. From brick at brickrobbins.com Tue Jan 9 15:35:32 2018 From: brick at brickrobbins.com (Brick Robbins) Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2018 13:35:32 -0800 Subject: [pct-l] Stove less In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Jan 9, 2018 at 7:56 AM, Candace Frederick wrote: > Living in an area close to the San Bernadino National Forest, I wish it was > banned in our area as well. Though, hiking through our forest, I see > remnants of fire rings from campers What do fire rings have to do with camp stoves? From thelyn at icloud.com Tue Jan 9 16:31:30 2018 From: thelyn at icloud.com (Lyn Turner) Date: Tue, 09 Jan 2018 22:31:30 +0000 Subject: [pct-l] Stove less In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4785E992-8CCF-439D-B103-BC8F1947F1F3@icloud.com> Exactly. SL Sent from my iThing > On 9 Jan 2018, at 21:35, Brick Robbins wrote: > >> On Tue, Jan 9, 2018 at 7:56 AM, Candace Frederick wrote: >> Living in an area close to the San Bernadino National Forest, I wish it was >> banned in our area as well. Though, hiking through our forest, I see >> remnants of fire rings from campers > > What do fire rings have to do with camp stoves? > _______________________________________________ > Pct-L mailing list > Pct-L at backcountry.net > To unsubscribe, or change options visit: > http://mailman.backcountry.net/mailman/listinfo/pct-l > > List Archives: > http://mailman.backcountry.net/pipermail/pct-l/ > All content is copyrighted by the respective authors. > Reproduction is prohibited without express permission. From paintyourwagonhikes at gmail.com Tue Jan 9 16:36:47 2018 From: paintyourwagonhikes at gmail.com (Paint YW) Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2018 15:36:47 -0700 Subject: [pct-l] Fwd: Re: Stove less In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: "Paint YW" Date: Jan 9, 2018 1:40 PM Subject: Re: [pct-l] Stove less To: "Candace Frederick" Cc: https://search.yahoo.com/search?fr=mcafee&type= C211US105D20170719&p=angeles+nf MAKE A RESERVATION - BANDIDO GROUP CAMPGROUND > - COULTER GROUP CAMPGROUND > - CRYSTAL LAKE > - JACKSON FLATS > - LAKE CAMPGROUND > - LIGHTNING POINT GROUP CAMPGROUND > - MEADOW GROUP CAMPGROUND > - MOUNTAIN OAK > - PYRAMID LAKE - EMIGRANT LANDING DAY USE AREA > - PYRAMID LAKE - LOS ALAMOS CAMPGROUND > - More > OTHER FACILITIES - 6,000 Foot Day Use > - Angeles National Forest Supervisor's Office > - Appletree Campground > - Arch Picnic Site > - Barley Road Junction Trailhead - Closed > - Basin Campground - Closed > - Bear Campground > - Bear Divide Vista Picnic Site > - Beartrap Picnic Site > - Big Pines Visitor Center Interpretive Site > - Big Rock Campground Seasonal/Hike-In > - Blue Ridge Campground > - Buckhorn Campground > - Buckhorn Day Use Area > - Cascade Picnic Site > - Chantry Flat Picnic Site > - Charlton Flats Picnic Site > - Chilao Campground > - Chilao Picnic Site > - Chilao Visitor Center > - Cienaga Campground - Closed > - Clear Creek Information Station > - Colby Bridge Day Use Area > - Coldbrook Campground > - Condor Peak Trailhead > - Cottonwood Campground--Closed > - Deer Flats Group Campground > - Delta Flat Day Use Site > - Delta Flats Observation Site > - Devil's Canyon (hwy 2) Trailhead > - Eagles Roost Picnic Site > - East Fork Day Use Pking Trailhead > - Eaton Saddle Trailhead > - Echo Mountain Picnic Site > - Fawnskin Picnic Area > - Fisherman's Point Fishing Site > - Frenchman's Flat Day Use Area > - George's Gap Trailhead > - Glenn Camp Campground > - Grassy Hollow Picnic Site > - Grassy Hollow Visitor Center Interpretive Site > - Green Valley Station Interpretive Site (admin) > - Guffy Campground > - Heaton Flats Trailhead > - Hidden Springs Picnic Site > - Horse Flats Campground - > - Icehouse Trailhead > - Indian Canyon Trailhead - Closed > - Inspiration Point Interpretive Site > - Inspiration Point Trailhead > - Islip Saddle Day Use Site > - Islip Wawona Trailhead > - Jackson Lake Picnic Site > - Jarvi Memorial Day Use Site > - Jarvi Memorial Observation Site > - Juniper Picnic Site > - Lake Elizabeth Picnic Site > - Live Oak Picnic Site - Decomissioned > - Los Angeles Gateway District > - Los Cantilles Group Picnic Site - Closed > - Lower Big Tujunga Water Play Area > - Lower San Antonio Day Use > - Lupine Campground-Closed > - Manker Campground > - Mescal Picnic Site > - Messenger Flats Campground > - Mill Creek Summit Picnic Site > - Monte Cristo Campground > - Mt. Baldy Visitor Center Interpretive Site (major) > - Mt. Baldy Wayside Picnic Site > - Mt. Pacifico Campground > - Mt. Wilson Rd/Eaton Saddle Trailhead > - Mt. Wilson Skyline Park Picnic Site > - Nino Picnic Site > - North Fork Saddle Picnic Site-No Vehicle Access > - Northshore Fishing Site Fishing Site > - Oak Flat Campground > - Oak Springs Trailhead/Picnic Area > - Oaks Picnic Site > - Oakwilde Campground > - PCT Pony Park Trailhead > - Pacific Crest Trail Trailhead > - Paul Little Picnic Site > - Peavine Campground > - Piru Ponds Interpretive Site - Closed > - Red Box Picnic Area > - Rocky Point Picnic Site > - Rowher Flats Trailhead > - Sage Picnic Site > - San Gabriel Cyn Entry Sta Info Site/fee Station > - San Gabriel Cyn OHV Area Specialized Sport Site > - San Gabriel Environmental Education Center Interpr > - San Gabriel Mountains National Monument > - San Gabriel and San Antonio Hunting Map > - Santa Clara/Mojave Rivers Ranger District > - Santiago Staging Area Picnic Site - Closed > - Sawmill Campground > - Serrano Picnic Site > - Shoemaker Viewpoint Day Use Area > - Shortcut Trailhead > - Skyline Park Picnic Area > - Soledad Interpretive Site (minor) - Closed > - Southfork Campground > - Southfork Group Campground > - Spanish Point Picnic Site > - Spring Camp Campground > - Spunky Campground - Closed > - Stonyvale Overlook Observation Site > - Stonyvale Picnic Site > - Strawberry Colby Trailhead > - Streamside Campground - Closed > - Switzer Picnic Site > - Table Mountain Picnic Site > - Telephone Point - View Point Day Use Area > - The Cove Fishing Site > - The Pines Picnic Site - Closed > - Three Points Day Use Site > - Three Points Trailhead > - Tincup Picnic Site > - Trail Canyon Trailhead > - Upper Bear Creek Trailhead > - Upper Shake Campground - Closed > - Vacquero Boating and Picnic Site > - Valyermo Picnic Site - Closed > - Vetter Mountain Lookout Interp Site > - Vincent's Gap Trailhead > - Vista Del Lago Interpretive Site (major) > - Vista Picnic Site > - Vogel Flat Picnic Site > - West Fork Day Use Pking Trailhead > - West Fork Fishing Access Fishing Site > - West Gate Rest Stop > - Wildwood Picnic Site > - Wilson Canyon Saddle > - Windy Gap Trailhead > - Yellowbar Picnic Site > - Zuni Campground - Closed > - - - Stating the obvious, - in a metropolis of 18 million people, - in close proximity to the Angeles NF, - one might find a demographic of people in need of fire prevention education, - at least as much as the average hiker. - - On a personal note, - I'm responsible with my Jetboil Zip stove, - and enjoy a hot meal at the end of a day of robust hiking, - so I'll be carrying it where it's use is prohibited, - and otherwise using it where it's allowed. - - I am including a list of recreation sites within the Angeles NF, - that presumably are reached by vehicular transportation, - to add some perspective to the discussion regarding forest fires, - campfires, - hikers, - and the use of backpacking stoves. - - IMHO, and to no one in particular, haranguing hikers will lead to tuning out, rather than tuning in. - - Paint On Tue, Jan 9, 2018 at 8:56 AM, Candace Frederick wrote: > Living in an area close to the San Bernadino National Forest, I wish it was > banned in our area as well. Though, hiking through our forest, I see > remnants of fire rings from campers anyway so I doubt it would do much > good. I would just rather not lose my house because someone wanted coffee > in the morning. > > On Mon, Jan 8, 2018 at 10:25 PM, Brick Robbins > wrote: > > > On Mon, Jan 8, 2018 at 7:49 PM, marmot marmot > > wrote: > > > The point of this discussion (in this year)is that in addition to the > > normal almost universal ban on campfires in Southern Calif. there is > also a > > ban on all stoves. > > > > The ban is on in Angeles NF, not all of SoCal > > > > Here is the map of the NF > > http://www.presleyt.net/anforest/tippics/anfmap610x471.gif > > _______________________________________________ > > Pct-L mailing list > > Pct-L at backcountry.net > > To unsubscribe, or change options visit: > > http://mailman.backcountry.net/mailman/listinfo/pct-l > > > > List Archives: > > http://mailman.backcountry.net/pipermail/pct-l/ > > All content is copyrighted by the respective authors. > > Reproduction is prohibited without express permission. > > > _______________________________________________ > Pct-L mailing list > Pct-L at backcountry.net > To unsubscribe, or change options visit: > http://mailman.backcountry.net/mailman/listinfo/pct-l > > List Archives: > http://mailman.backcountry.net/pipermail/pct-l/ > All content is copyrighted by the respective authors. > Reproduction is prohibited without express permission. > From marmotwestvanc at hotmail.com Tue Jan 9 17:20:11 2018 From: marmotwestvanc at hotmail.com (marmot marmot) Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2018 23:20:11 +0000 Subject: [pct-l] Stoves and fires etc Message-ID: It's just that whole conversation got started because of the new regulations concerning all campfires and all stoves in the Angeles Crest. Marmot Sent from my iPhone From paintyourwagonhikes at gmail.com Tue Jan 9 23:26:44 2018 From: paintyourwagonhikes at gmail.com (Paint YW) Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2018 22:26:44 -0700 Subject: [pct-l] Stoves and fires etc In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I've ran across a few fire rings while out hiking, in some out of the way places along the trail that were very inappropriate; on a saddle, and, up on a ledge, with absolutely no water available within a reasonable distance, are but two examples. The likelihood that they were put there by anyone but hikers seems very slim. Perhaps a voluntary pledge by hikers not to construct fires is in order, and might the PCTA initiate such a public awareness campaign using all of the tools at their disposal? The Communicator magazine, website articles, email messages with permits, traditional and recurring gatherings, boards and forums, etc., could all be brought into play to convey the need for self discipline. Open fires are one thing, and personal backpacking cook stoves quite another animal. That being said- I will abide a use ban where implemented. Adding exponentially to the danger of fire, and looming on the horizon is the pine bark beetle and the devastation it's wrought over large swaths of land, rendering such forest a ticking time bomb. Be careful out there... Paint On Tue, Jan 9, 2018 at 4:20 PM, marmot marmot wrote: > It's just that whole conversation got started because of the new > regulations concerning all campfires and all stoves in the Angeles Crest. > Marmot > > Sent from my iPhone > _______________________________________________ > Pct-L mailing list > Pct-L at backcountry.net > To unsubscribe, or change options visit: > http://mailman.backcountry.net/mailman/listinfo/pct-l > > List Archives: > http://mailman.backcountry.net/pipermail/pct-l/ > All content is copyrighted by the respective authors. > Reproduction is prohibited without express permission. > From david at emeraldlake.com Wed Jan 10 00:51:17 2018 From: david at emeraldlake.com (David Plotnikoff) Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2018 22:51:17 -0800 Subject: [pct-l] Angeles National Forest complete ban on all stoves?! Message-ID: <65f9c18f-96f5-5911-03b2-063a0fe37938@emeraldlake.com> Hello from a long-time list lurker. (Long, long time ....) I'm not sure if this is going to reach the list because although Brick has assured me in the past that I am still signed up, I have not received messages in more than a year. Here's the deal: In researching a SoCal section hike from Campo through to the aqueduct for this year (yes, I AM doing it again)... I have come across a forest order from the acting forest supervisor for the Angeles National Forest, dated Dec. 7. 2017 and effective Jan. 4 2018 through the end of the 2018 fire season. The order can be found at: https://www.fs.usda.gov/alerts/angeles/alerts-notices If that doesn't get you to the place where you can click on "Fire Use Restrictions 05-01-18-01 Date(s): Dec 7, 2017" you need to manually go to the Angeles National Forest Web site and drill down to "Alerts and Notices." This order appears to ban ALL STOVES OF ANY KIND from the entirety of the Angeles National Forest. It does not appear to have been done in conjunction with or consultation of the PCTA. (Jack? Care to chime in?) I ran across this because of the wild disparity of information and dis-information on the legality of alcohol stoves in Southern California. I can find no evidence of a blanket ban on them, or even any direct evidence of a ban on them in a specific jurisdiction. EXCEPT for the executive order referenced above. IF this is what it appears to be, that's going to be a lot of cold starts and a lot of cold dinners for a whole lot of PCT hikers. I would like to hear the PCTA's statement on this and other stove regulations currently in Southern California. I can't find word one on the PCTA site on this issue, only a vague line on the water report that doesn't reference a flat-out ban, only an urging of people to not carry cat stoves. Anyone who'd like to offer some clarity -- more light than heat! -- please jump in here. Respectfully, David Plotnikoff From paintyourwagonhikes at gmail.com Wed Jan 10 09:32:21 2018 From: paintyourwagonhikes at gmail.com (Paint YW) Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2018 08:32:21 -0700 Subject: [pct-l] Angeles National Forest complete ban on all stoves?! In-Reply-To: <65f9c18f-96f5-5911-03b2-063a0fe37938@emeraldlake.com> References: <65f9c18f-96f5-5911-03b2-063a0fe37938@emeraldlake.com> Message-ID: Check your spam folder to see if any PCT-L messages were arbitrarily sent there... happens on my end rather routinely. Appreciate your input and good to see a lurker come in from the cold. FWIW- the Angeles NF fire/stove ban covers an area along the PCT, from about Wrightwood to Hikertown/HWY 138 (approx. miles 400 to 530) with a brief area of permittable use near Agua Dulce (mile 454). Paint On Jan 9, 2018 11:51 PM, "David Plotnikoff" wrote: > Hello from a long-time list lurker. (Long, long time ....) I'm not sure if > this is going to reach the list because although Brick has assured me in > the past that I am still signed up, I have not received messages in more > than a year. > > Here's the deal: In researching a SoCal section hike from Campo through to > the aqueduct for this year (yes, I AM doing it again)... I have come across > a forest order from the acting forest supervisor for the Angeles National > Forest, dated Dec. 7. 2017 and effective Jan. 4 2018 through the end of the > 2018 fire season. > > The order can be found at: https://www.fs.usda.gov/alerts > /angeles/alerts-notices > > > If that doesn't get you to the place where you can click on "Fire Use > Restrictions 05-01-18-01 Date(s): Dec 7, 2017" you need to manually go to > the Angeles National Forest Web site and drill down to "Alerts and Notices." > > > This order appears to ban ALL STOVES OF ANY KIND from the entirety of the > Angeles National Forest. It does not appear to have been done in > conjunction with or consultation of the PCTA. (Jack? Care to chime in?) > > I ran across this because of the wild disparity of information and > dis-information on the legality of alcohol stoves in Southern California. I > can find no evidence of a blanket ban on them, or even any direct evidence > of a ban on them in a specific jurisdiction. EXCEPT for the executive order > referenced above. > > IF this is what it appears to be, that's going to be a lot of cold starts > and a lot of cold dinners for a whole lot of PCT hikers. > > I would like to hear the PCTA's statement on this and other stove > regulations currently in Southern California. I can't find word one on the > PCTA site on this issue, only a vague line on the water report that doesn't > reference a flat-out ban, only an urging of people to not carry cat stoves. > > Anyone who'd like to offer some clarity -- more light than heat! -- please > jump in here. > > Respectfully, > > David Plotnikoff > > _______________________________________________ > Pct-L mailing list > Pct-L at backcountry.net > To unsubscribe, or change options visit: > http://mailman.backcountry.net/mailman/listinfo/pct-l > > List Archives: > http://mailman.backcountry.net/pipermail/pct-l/ > All content is copyrighted by the respective authors. > Reproduction is prohibited without express permission. > From gary_schenk at verizon.net Wed Jan 10 09:33:59 2018 From: gary_schenk at verizon.net (Gary Schenk) Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2018 10:33:59 -0500 Subject: [pct-l] Stove less In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <160e0b4e5f0-171d-47f02@webjas-vad074.srv.aolmail.net> -----Original Message----- From: Brick Robbins To: pct-l @backcountry.net Sent: Tue, Jan 9, 2018 1:35 pm Subject: Re: [pct-l] Stove less On Tue, Jan 9, 2018 at 7:56 AM, Candace Frederick wrote: > Living in an area close to the San Bernadino National Forest, I wish it was > banned in our area as well. Though, hiking through our forest, I see > remnants of fire rings from campers What do fire rings have to do with camp stoves? ****************************************************************************************** It's evidence that many PCT hikers cannot be trusted with fire. Like Candace, I see many illegal fire rings on the PCT. It's not cool. On the AT they have a communal fire every night at the shelters. When they come out west they continue the tradition, and why not, they don't know the reality of the conditions out here. Fifteen people died yesterday as the result of a human caused fire. With the conditions existent in the southern California mountains we all need to be careful. We all need to get the word out about fires, whether campfires or stove fires. Gary From brick at brickrobbins.com Wed Jan 10 13:07:15 2018 From: brick at brickrobbins.com (Brick Robbins) Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2018 11:07:15 -0800 Subject: [pct-l] Stove less In-Reply-To: <160e0b4e5f0-171d-47f02@webjas-vad074.srv.aolmail.net> References: <160e0b4e5f0-171d-47f02@webjas-vad074.srv.aolmail.net> Message-ID: On Wed, Jan 10, 2018 at 7:33 AM, Gary Schenk wrote: > What do fire rings have to do with camp stoves? > ****************************************************************************************** > > It's evidence that many PCT hikers cannot be trusted with fire. Like Candace, I see many illegal fire rings on the PCT. It's not cool. > > On the AT they have a communal fire every night at the shelters. When they come out west they continue the tradition, and why not, they don't know the reality of the conditions out here. Fifteen people died yesterday as the result of a human caused fire. With the conditions existent in the southern California mountains we all need to be careful. We all need to get the word out about fires, whether campfires or stove fires. I do not see how stove usage is evidence that "PCT hikers cannot be trusted with fire" and I still don't see how fire rings have anything to do with stoves. Also, as a resident of Southern California, who frequents the PCT year round, not just the thru-hiker season, I can assure you that the vast majority of the use the trail gets is not from thru-hikers, but from weekenders, hunters and day hikers. The proximity of Angeles NF to Los Angeles gives easy access city folks who have no clue about things like Leave No Trace, Fire Safety or even cleaning up their own garbage. The weekend after the opening of Deer Season here in San Diego country, much of the area around the PCT is littered with fire rings, spent shell casing, and empty beer cans. I avoid the backcountry on Opening Day. A person just can't wear enough orange to feel comfortable. While I support education, and "getting the word out," it will require outreach to the non-hiking population, not demeaning messages telling thru hikers that they can't be trusted with fire. IMHO. From thelyn at icloud.com Wed Jan 10 17:28:23 2018 From: thelyn at icloud.com (Lyn Turner) Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2018 23:28:23 +0000 Subject: [pct-l] Stove less In-Reply-To: References: <160e0b4e5f0-171d-47f02@webjas-vad074.srv.aolmail.net> Message-ID: I'm absolutely with you on this, Brick. Candace and co: if I'm going to travel 5000 miles in order to complete my PCT adventure, you can be absolutely sure I'm not there to burn your house down. After 50 years of safe wilderness hiking, I think I can be trusted to make a cup of coffee on my tiny stove and manage to not set the forest on fire. Whatever...I will happily abide by what the PCTA recommends. I don't think I'm the worrisome wilderness hiker, though: hunters, day hikers, folks who don't understand LNT and random idiots are the people you might want to worry about. Scottish Lyn Sent from my iThing > On 10 Jan 2018, at 19:07, Brick Robbins wrote: > >> On Wed, Jan 10, 2018 at 7:33 AM, Gary Schenk wrote: >> What do fire rings have to do with camp stoves? >> ****************************************************************************************** >> >> It's evidence that many PCT hikers cannot be trusted with fire. Like Candace, I see many illegal fire rings on the PCT. It's not cool. >> >> On the AT they have a communal fire every night at the shelters. When they come out west they continue the tradition, and why not, they don't know the reality of the conditions out here. Fifteen people died yesterday as the result of a human caused fire. With the conditions existent in the southern California mountains we all need to be careful. We all need to get the word out about fires, whether campfires or stove fires. > > I do not see how stove usage is evidence that "PCT hikers cannot be > trusted with fire" and I still don't see how fire rings have anything > to do with stoves. > > Also, as a resident of Southern California, who frequents the PCT year > round, not just the thru-hiker season, I can assure you that the vast > majority of the use the trail gets is not from thru-hikers, but from > weekenders, hunters and day hikers. The proximity of Angeles NF to Los > Angeles gives easy access city folks who have no clue about things > like Leave No Trace, Fire Safety or even cleaning up their own > garbage. > > The weekend after the opening of Deer Season here in San Diego > country, much of the area around the PCT is littered with fire rings, > spent shell casing, and empty beer cans. I avoid the backcountry on > Opening Day. A person just can't wear enough orange to feel > comfortable. > > While I support education, and "getting the word out," it will require > outreach to the non-hiking population, not demeaning messages telling > thru hikers that they can't be trusted with fire. > > IMHO. > _______________________________________________ > Pct-L mailing list > Pct-L at backcountry.net > To unsubscribe, or change options visit: > http://mailman.backcountry.net/mailman/listinfo/pct-l > > List Archives: > http://mailman.backcountry.net/pipermail/pct-l/ > All content is copyrighted by the respective authors. > Reproduction is prohibited without express permission. From ralvek088-hiking at yahoo.com Wed Jan 10 17:51:04 2018 From: ralvek088-hiking at yahoo.com (r v) Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2018 23:51:04 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [pct-l] Stove less In-Reply-To: References: <160e0b4e5f0-171d-47f02@webjas-vad074.srv.aolmail.net> Message-ID: <1063742389.783919.1515628264925@mail.yahoo.com> Unfortunately fires are a real concern in this part of the world and land managers have few options butto make rules for the lowest common denominator and they have no way of knowing your background orlevel of experience. Even if you are experienced in managing yourself and your stove all it takes is a very smallmistake to start a fire. For all those throwing rocks at the stringent rules on stoves and fires, please step forward and volunteer to fightthe next wild land? fire in the Angeles National Forest putting yourself in harm's way. From: Lyn Turner To: Brick Robbins Cc: PCT Sent: Wednesday, January 10, 2018 3:28 PM Subject: Re: [pct-l] Stove less I'm absolutely with you on this, Brick. Candace and co: if I'm going to travel 5000 miles in order to complete my PCT adventure, you can be absolutely sure I'm not there to burn your house down. After 50 years of safe wilderness hiking, I think I can be trusted to make a cup of coffee on my tiny stove and manage to not set the forest on fire. Whatever...I will happily abide by what the PCTA recommends. I don't think I'm the worrisome wilderness hiker, though: hunters, day hikers, folks who don't understand LNT and random idiots are the people you might want to worry about. Scottish Lyn Sent from my iThing > On 10 Jan 2018, at 19:07, Brick Robbins wrote: > >> On Wed, Jan 10, 2018 at 7:33 AM, Gary Schenk wrote: >> What do fire rings have to do with camp stoves? >> ****************************************************************************************** >> >> It's evidence that many PCT hikers cannot be trusted with fire. Like Candace, I see many illegal fire rings on the PCT. It's not cool. >> >> On the AT they have a communal fire every night at the shelters. When they come out west they continue the tradition, and why not, they don't know the reality of the conditions out here. Fifteen people died yesterday as the result of a human caused fire. With the conditions existent in the southern California mountains we all need to be careful. We all need to get the word out about fires, whether campfires or stove fires. > > I do not see how stove usage is evidence that "PCT hikers cannot be > trusted with fire" and I still don't see how fire rings have anything > to do with stoves. > > Also, as a resident of Southern California, who frequents the PCT year > round, not just the thru-hiker season, I can assure you that the vast > majority of the use the trail gets is not from thru-hikers, but from > weekenders, hunters and day hikers. The proximity of Angeles NF to Los > Angeles gives easy access city folks who have no clue about things > like Leave No Trace, Fire Safety or even cleaning up their own > garbage. > > The weekend after the opening of Deer Season here in San Diego > country, much of the area around the PCT is littered with fire rings, > spent shell casing, and empty beer cans. I avoid the backcountry on > Opening Day. A person just can't wear enough orange to feel > comfortable. > > While I support education, and "getting the word out," it will require > outreach to the non-hiking population, not demeaning messages telling > thru hikers that they can't be trusted with fire. > > IMHO. > _______________________________________________ > Pct-L mailing list > Pct-L at backcountry.net > To unsubscribe, or change options visit: > http://mailman.backcountry.net/mailman/listinfo/pct-l > > List Archives: > http://mailman.backcountry.net/pipermail/pct-l/ > All content is copyrighted by the respective authors. > Reproduction is prohibited without express permission. _______________________________________________ Pct-L mailing list Pct-L at backcountry.net To unsubscribe, or change options visit: http://mailman.backcountry.net/mailman/listinfo/pct-l List Archives: http://mailman.backcountry.net/pipermail/pct-l/ All content is copyrighted by the respective authors. Reproduction is prohibited without express permission. From TBrokaw at montmush.com Wed Jan 10 18:22:44 2018 From: TBrokaw at montmush.com (TBrokaw at montmush.com) Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2018 16:22:44 -0800 Subject: [pct-l] Stoves and fires etc In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Breakfast & lunch will be easy. But I suspect many hikers will struggle with the cold dinner options. Perhaps we can collect some dinner suggestions. Many hikers can only cook Mountain House or ramen. Personally I like the tuna or salmon packs with bagels. These are found in most stores now. I recently stocked up on 2.6 oz tuna at $1 per pack. If we could compile a list of (no cook) dinner suggestions, maybe the PCTA site would publish these? Sent from my iPhone > On Jan 9, 2018, at 3:21 PM, marmot marmot wrote: > > It's just that whole conversation got started because of the new regulations concerning all campfires and all stoves in the Angeles Crest. > Marmot > > Sent from my iPhone > _______________________________________________ > Pct-L mailing list > Pct-L at backcountry.net > To unsubscribe, or change options visit: > http://mailman.backcountry.net/mailman/listinfo/pct-l > > List Archives: > http://mailman.backcountry.net/pipermail/pct-l/ > All content is copyrighted by the respective authors. > Reproduction is prohibited without express permission. From pctlist at pctwalker.com Wed Jan 10 18:47:18 2018 From: pctlist at pctwalker.com (Kathi) Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2018 16:47:18 -0800 Subject: [pct-l] Stoves and fires etc In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7c70be93-83dd-9811-76ed-d3c65e6e7a59@pctwalker.com> I have been working on no-cook recipes and suggestions. I am compiling a list on my site: http://www.pctwalker.com/food.html It's just a beginning now but if anyone has suggestions I would love to include them. Kathi On 1/10/18 4:22 PM, TBrokaw at montmush.com wrote: > Breakfast & lunch will be easy. But I suspect many hikers will struggle > with the cold dinner options. Perhaps we can collect some dinner > suggestions. Many hikers can only cook Mountain House or ramen. Personally > I like the tuna or salmon packs with bagels. These are found in most stores > now. I recently stocked up on 2.6 oz tuna at $1 per pack. > If we could compile a list of (no cook) dinner suggestions, maybe the PCTA > site would publish these? > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Jan 9, 2018, at 3:21 PM, marmot marmot > wrote: >> It's just that whole conversation got started because of the new > regulations concerning all campfires and all stoves in the Angeles Crest. >> Marmot >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> _______________________________________________ >> Pct-L mailing list >> Pct-L at backcountry.net >> To unsubscribe, or change options visit: >> http://mailman.backcountry.net/mailman/listinfo/pct-l >> >> List Archives: >> http://mailman.backcountry.net/pipermail/pct-l/ >> All content is copyrighted by the respective authors. >> Reproduction is prohibited without express permission. > _______________________________________________ > Pct-L mailing list > Pct-L at backcountry.net > To unsubscribe, or change options visit: > http://mailman.backcountry.net/mailman/listinfo/pct-l > > List Archives: > http://mailman.backcountry.net/pipermail/pct-l/ > All content is copyrighted by the respective authors. > Reproduction is prohibited without express permission. > From thelyn at icloud.com Wed Jan 10 18:57:49 2018 From: thelyn at icloud.com (Lyn Turner) Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2018 00:57:49 +0000 Subject: [pct-l] Stove less In-Reply-To: <1063742389.783919.1515628264925@mail.yahoo.com> References: <160e0b4e5f0-171d-47f02@webjas-vad074.srv.aolmail.net> <1063742389.783919.1515628264925@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <674C17D1-6705-4E6F-A019-0A155BF6A35B@icloud.com> I get it, friends. And I would fully support volunteering to fight fires, and believe me, I'm not afraid of putting myself in harm's way. That's another story, and one for another time. But I'm in a different country, and happy to support whatever the PCTA recommendation is. I'm not going to burn your house or your amazing landscape down anytime soon. Really. Even if I have to have a cold cup of coffee in the morning... Scottish Lyn Sent from my iThing > On 10 Jan 2018, at 23:51, r v wrote: > > > Unfortunately fires are a real concern in this part of the world and land managers have few options but > to make rules for the lowest common denominator and they have no way of knowing your background or > level of experience. Even if you are experienced in managing yourself and your stove all it takes is a very small > mistake to start a fire. > > For all those throwing rocks at the stringent rules on stoves and fires, please step forward and volunteer to fight > the next wild land fire in the Angeles National Forest putting yourself in harm's way. > > > > > From: Lyn Turner > To: Brick Robbins > Cc: PCT > Sent: Wednesday, January 10, 2018 3:28 PM > Subject: Re: [pct-l] Stove less > > I'm absolutely with you on this, Brick. > Candace and co: if I'm going to travel 5000 miles in order to complete my PCT adventure, you can be absolutely sure I'm not there to burn your house down. After 50 years of safe wilderness hiking, I think I can be trusted to make a cup of coffee on my tiny stove and manage to not set the forest on fire. > Whatever...I will happily abide by what the PCTA recommends. I don't think I'm the worrisome wilderness hiker, though: hunters, day hikers, folks who don't understand LNT and random idiots are the people you might want to worry about. > > Scottish Lyn > > Sent from my iThing > > > > On 10 Jan 2018, at 19:07, Brick Robbins wrote: > > > >> On Wed, Jan 10, 2018 at 7:33 AM, Gary Schenk wrote: > >> What do fire rings have to do with camp stoves? > >> ****************************************************************************************** > >> > >> It's evidence that many PCT hikers cannot be trusted with fire. Like Candace, I see many illegal fire rings on the PCT. It's not cool. > >> > >> On the AT they have a communal fire every night at the shelters. When they come out west they continue the tradition, and why not, they don't know the reality of the conditions out here. Fifteen people died yesterday as the result of a human caused fire. With the conditions existent in the southern California mountains we all need to be careful. We all need to get the word out about fires, whether campfires or stove fires. > > > > I do not see how stove usage is evidence that "PCT hikers cannot be > > trusted with fire" and I still don't see how fire rings have anything > > to do with stoves. > > > > Also, as a resident of Southern California, who frequents the PCT year > > round, not just the thru-hiker season, I can assure you that the vast > > majority of the use the trail gets is not from thru-hikers, but from > > weekenders, hunters and day hikers. The proximity of Angeles NF to Los > > Angeles gives easy access city folks who have no clue about things > > like Leave No Trace, Fire Safety or even cleaning up their own > > garbage. > > > > The weekend after the opening of Deer Season here in San Diego > > country, much of the area around the PCT is littered with fire rings, > > spent shell casing, and empty beer cans. I avoid the backcountry on > > Opening Day. A person just can't wear enough orange to feel > > comfortable. > > > > While I support education, and "getting the word out," it will require > > outreach to the non-hiking population, not demeaning messages telling > > thru hikers that they can't be trusted with fire. > > > > IMHO. > > _______________________________________________ > > Pct-L mailing list > > Pct-L at backcountry.net > > To unsubscribe, or change options visit: > > http://mailman.backcountry.net/mailman/listinfo/pct-l > > > > List Archives: > > http://mailman.backcountry.net/pipermail/pct-l/ > > All content is copyrighted by the respective authors. > > Reproduction is prohibited without express permission. > > _______________________________________________ > Pct-L mailing list > Pct-L at backcountry.net > To unsubscribe, or change options visit: > http://mailman.backcountry.net/mailman/listinfo/pct-l > > List Archives: > http://mailman.backcountry.net/pipermail/pct-l/ > All content is copyrighted by the respective authors. > Reproduction is prohibited without express permission. > > From pctlist at pctwalker.com Wed Jan 10 19:03:29 2018 From: pctlist at pctwalker.com (Kathi) Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2018 17:03:29 -0800 Subject: [pct-l] Cook-less Food/Recipes Message-ID: <4accff39-196a-35a7-4a73-4b0b0eb08478@pctwalker.com> I thought I would re-post my response in another email thread so it is under the correct topic, I would really like to compile a nice list, here's the post: I have been working on no-cook recipes and suggestions. I am compiling a list on my site: http://www.pctwalker.com/food.html It's just a beginning now but if anyone has suggestions I would love to include them. Kathi From moodyjj at comcast.net Wed Jan 10 19:09:54 2018 From: moodyjj at comcast.net (Jim & Jane Moody) Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2018 20:09:54 -0500 (EST) Subject: [pct-l] Stoves and fires etc In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <97293572.72564.1515632995221@connect.xfinity.com> About a week ago, as pat of this thread I posted a list of no-cook meals that I have eaten since I started going cold. Maybe that post didn't get to members. If I can find it, I'll copy and repost. Thanks for bring up the tuna packs. I collect small packets of mayo (keep them in frig when not hiking) and sweet relish, to mix with the tuna or salmon. Very tasty. HERE'S MY ORGINAL POST I've been stoveless for the last 5 or 6 years, through all of OR, WA, and most of MT (and a little bit of CO). I use a lot of the same basic foods I used to cook. The mainstays are freeze-dried meats and veggies from Provident Pantry (beprepared.com). It's clearly a LDS supply business, but they assured me they would sell to Methodists. At home I pre-mix a meat (beef, chicken, turkey, or ham) with a variety of veggies (they offer probably 2 dz). After lunch I add water to the meat/veggy mixture and let it start rehydrating. About an hour before eating I add a carb and some kind of seasoning like bouillon, spice mix, onion dip mix, red pepper flakes, or tabasco. My favorite carbs are instant potatoes, refried bean mix, black bean mix, and hummus. I found that instant rice and pasta turn into glop - they don't rehydrate well in cold water. Freeze-dried cheeses are also an option, to break up the boredom. At dinner time, I can add more potatoes or water if too thick or thin. Lunch is usually a bread (tortilla, muffin, crackers, etc. with shelf-stable meat like pepperoni or summer sausage, hard cheese, mustard, ... Freeze -dried fruit is a good snack at lunch or anytime on the trail. I also eat a lot of peanut butter; I mix peanut butter powder with honey crystals, Nido, and powdered coconut milk,then add water in a small nalgene screw-top container. Trail mix and various bars fill in the gaps of hunger. The time I save by not cooking gives me more time to fantasize about what hot meals I'll order in town. Oh, yeah - breakfast. Pre-mixed packs of granola, bran, freeze dried fruit, and Nido. Add water while taking down tent to let the fruit soften a little. Coffee - although I love hot coffee or hot chocolate, I've found that Starbucks' Via instant packs are surprising good in a liter of cold water - one regular coffee pack and 1 flavored latte together. Mango > On January 10, 2018 at 7:22 PM TBrokaw at montmush.com mailto:TBrokaw at montmush.com wrote: > > > > Breakfast & lunch will be easy. But I suspect many hikers will struggle > with the cold dinner options. Perhaps we can collect some dinner > suggestions. Many hikers can only cook Mountain House or ramen. Personally > I like the tuna or salmon packs with bagels. These are found in most stores > now. I recently stocked up on 2.6 oz tuna at $1 per pack. > If we could compile a list of (no cook) dinner suggestions, maybe the PCTA > site would publish these? > > Sent from my iPhone > > > > On Jan 9, 2018, at 3:21 PM, marmot marmot > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > It's just that whole conversation got started because of the new > > > > > regulations concerning all campfires and all stoves in the Angeles Crest. > > > > Marmot > > > > Sent from my iPhone > > _______________________________________________ > > Pct-L mailing list > > Pct-L at backcountry.net mailto:Pct-L at backcountry.net > > To unsubscribe, or change options visit: > > http://mailman.backcountry.net/mailman/listinfo/pct-l > > > > List Archives: > > http://mailman.backcountry.net/pipermail/pct-l/ > > All content is copyrighted by the respective authors. > > Reproduction is prohibited without express permission. > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Pct-L mailing list > Pct-L at backcountry.net mailto:Pct-L at backcountry.net > To unsubscribe, or change options visit: > http://mailman.backcountry.net/mailman/listinfo/pct-l > > List Archives: > http://mailman.backcountry.net/pipermail/pct-l/ > All content is copyrighted by the respective authors. > Reproduction is prohibited without express permission. > From richardb10 at live.com Wed Jan 10 19:10:17 2018 From: richardb10 at live.com (Richard Brinkman) Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2018 01:10:17 +0000 Subject: [pct-l] Stoves and fires etc In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Agreed that a salmon or tuna packet but with whole grain tortilla, protein powder mixed in water, and peanut butter. These were my staples on trail. Roadwalker -----Original Message----- From: Pct-L [mailto:pct-l-bounces at backcountry.net] On Behalf Of TBrokaw at montmush.com Sent: Wednesday, January 10, 2018 4:23 PM To: marmot marmot Cc: pct-l @backcountry.net Subject: Re: [pct-l] Stoves and fires etc Breakfast & lunch will be easy. But I suspect many hikers will struggle with the cold dinner options. Perhaps we can collect some dinner suggestions. Many hikers can only cook Mountain House or ramen. Personally I like the tuna or salmon packs with bagels. These are found in most stores now. I recently stocked up on 2.6 oz tuna at $1 per pack. If we could compile a list of (no cook) dinner suggestions, maybe the PCTA site would publish these? Sent from my iPhone > On Jan 9, 2018, at 3:21 PM, marmot marmot wrote: > > It's just that whole conversation got started because of the new regulations concerning all campfires and all stoves in the Angeles Crest. > Marmot > > Sent from my iPhone > _______________________________________________ > Pct-L mailing list > Pct-L at backcountry.net > To unsubscribe, or change options visit: > http://mailman.backcountry.net/mailman/listinfo/pct-l > > List Archives: > http://mailman.backcountry.net/pipermail/pct-l/ > All content is copyrighted by the respective authors. > Reproduction is prohibited without express permission. _______________________________________________ Pct-L mailing list Pct-L at backcountry.net To unsubscribe, or change options visit: http://mailman.backcountry.net/mailman/listinfo/pct-l List Archives: http://mailman.backcountry.net/pipermail/pct-l/ All content is copyrighted by the respective authors. Reproduction is prohibited without express permission. From brick at brickrobbins.com Wed Jan 10 19:18:05 2018 From: brick at brickrobbins.com (Brick Robbins) Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2018 17:18:05 -0800 Subject: [pct-l] Stove less In-Reply-To: <1063742389.783919.1515628264925@mail.yahoo.com> References: <160e0b4e5f0-171d-47f02@webjas-vad074.srv.aolmail.net> <1063742389.783919.1515628264925@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Jan 10, 2018 at 3:51 PM, r v wrote: > For all those throwing rocks at the stringent rules on stoves and fires, > please step forward and volunteer to fight > the next wild land fire in the Angeles National Forest putting yourself in > harm's way. No one has thrown any rocks at the Angeles NF policy, and I have not seen anyone even disagree with the no stove policy, in any post on this list. Where is this "throwing rocks" feeling coming from? From brick at brickrobbins.com Wed Jan 10 19:24:31 2018 From: brick at brickrobbins.com (Brick Robbins) Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2018 17:24:31 -0800 Subject: [pct-l] Angeles NF Stove ban is only trail 130 miles Message-ID: Some of these posts make it out like "stoves are prohibited on the PCT," and that simply is not true. There are only two sections that are in Angeles NF, one about 50 miles, an another of about 80 miles. Which for me is only going to be 3 nights, if I time it right. And both of these are in areas where it is likely to be quite warm, and you won't miss the hot food much. From candace at jfred.net Wed Jan 10 19:39:37 2018 From: candace at jfred.net (Candace Frederick) Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2018 17:39:37 -0800 Subject: [pct-l] Stove less In-Reply-To: References: <160e0b4e5f0-171d-47f02@webjas-vad074.srv.aolmail.net> Message-ID: Yes, I know not all (and maybe not even very many) thru-hikers or day hikers, or what have you, have no respect/intuition for where they are and what could happen. However, there are enough to cause concern. My mention of fire rings earlier was because fires are not allowed and yet I see them all the time. None of them are near water or have a 10 foot clearance around the. Which, to me, means that even though stoves are banned, they will be used. Just because you are competent enough to not start a fire with your stove, there are probably 20+ people who aren't. Stoves can malfunction as well and I think this is more what the worry is. Accidentally kicked or blown over, or even leaks, or the seal isn't tight... who knows. We just have so much fuel after hardly any rain, the forest service doesn't want to risk it. There are lots of beginners and people who just don't care out there. I think it's up to the experienced people to help educate and set an example - to PCT thrus, hunters, day hikers, and whoever else will listen. I'm sorry so many responsible people feel offended by the conversation about our fears of fires. Like many things in life, we have to cater to the lowest common denominator. I mean really, who would eat the silica gel packets or use a dry cleaning plastic cover as a toy for a child. Some one thought that was a good idea. After all this - I hope everyone has some happy hiking this year! On Wed, Jan 10, 2018 at 3:28 PM, Lyn Turner wrote: > I'm absolutely with you on this, Brick. > Candace and co: if I'm going to travel 5000 miles in order to complete my > PCT adventure, you can be absolutely sure I'm not there to burn your house > down. After 50 years of safe wilderness hiking, I think I can be trusted to > make a cup of coffee on my tiny stove and manage to not set the forest on > fire. > Whatever...I will happily abide by what the PCTA recommends. I don't think > I'm the worrisome wilderness hiker, though: hunters, day hikers, folks who > don't understand LNT and random idiots are the people you might want to > worry about. > > Scottish Lyn > > Sent from my iThing > > > > On 10 Jan 2018, at 19:07, Brick Robbins wrote: > > > >> On Wed, Jan 10, 2018 at 7:33 AM, Gary Schenk > wrote: > >> What do fire rings have to do with camp stoves? > >> ************************************************************ > ****************************** > >> > >> It's evidence that many PCT hikers cannot be trusted with fire. Like > Candace, I see many illegal fire rings on the PCT. It's not cool. > >> > >> On the AT they have a communal fire every night at the shelters. When > they come out west they continue the tradition, and why not, they don't > know the reality of the conditions out here. Fifteen people died yesterday > as the result of a human caused fire. With the conditions existent in the > southern California mountains we all need to be careful. We all need to get > the word out about fires, whether campfires or stove fires. > > > > I do not see how stove usage is evidence that "PCT hikers cannot be > > trusted with fire" and I still don't see how fire rings have anything > > to do with stoves. > > > > Also, as a resident of Southern California, who frequents the PCT year > > round, not just the thru-hiker season, I can assure you that the vast > > majority of the use the trail gets is not from thru-hikers, but from > > weekenders, hunters and day hikers. The proximity of Angeles NF to Los > > Angeles gives easy access city folks who have no clue about things > > like Leave No Trace, Fire Safety or even cleaning up their own > > garbage. > > > > The weekend after the opening of Deer Season here in San Diego > > country, much of the area around the PCT is littered with fire rings, > > spent shell casing, and empty beer cans. I avoid the backcountry on > > Opening Day. A person just can't wear enough orange to feel > > comfortable. > > > > While I support education, and "getting the word out," it will require > > outreach to the non-hiking population, not demeaning messages telling > > thru hikers that they can't be trusted with fire. > > > > IMHO. > > _______________________________________________ > > Pct-L mailing list > > Pct-L at backcountry.net > > To unsubscribe, or change options visit: > > http://mailman.backcountry.net/mailman/listinfo/pct-l > > > > List Archives: > > http://mailman.backcountry.net/pipermail/pct-l/ > > All content is copyrighted by the respective authors. > > Reproduction is prohibited without express permission. > _______________________________________________ > Pct-L mailing list > Pct-L at backcountry.net > To unsubscribe, or change options visit: > http://mailman.backcountry.net/mailman/listinfo/pct-l > > List Archives: > http://mailman.backcountry.net/pipermail/pct-l/ > All content is copyrighted by the respective authors. > Reproduction is prohibited without express permission. > From brick at brickrobbins.com Wed Jan 10 19:52:47 2018 From: brick at brickrobbins.com (Brick Robbins) Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2018 17:52:47 -0800 Subject: [pct-l] Stove less In-Reply-To: References: <160e0b4e5f0-171d-47f02@webjas-vad074.srv.aolmail.net> Message-ID: On Wed, Jan 10, 2018 at 5:39 PM, Candace Frederick wrote: > Which, to me, means that even though stoves are banned, they > will be used. STOVES ARE NOT BANNED ON THE TRAIL!!! There are two short sections of the trail (130mi total) where they cannot be used. 130 miles on a a 2600 mile trail From candace at jfred.net Wed Jan 10 21:05:12 2018 From: candace at jfred.net (Candace Frederick) Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2018 19:05:12 -0800 Subject: [pct-l] Stove less In-Reply-To: References: <160e0b4e5f0-171d-47f02@webjas-vad074.srv.aolmail.net> Message-ID: Yes, I realize this. I don't know how that makes any difference with the issues we are talking about. Getting that info out there and educating people as to why is still important for those 130 miles. I don't want people thinking "well it's only 130 miles I can just ignore it." That's a bunch of days people will need to go cookless and discussing this helps them become aware of that fact and will illicit questions as to cookless ideas for meals. On Wed, Jan 10, 2018 at 5:52 PM, Brick Robbins wrote: > On Wed, Jan 10, 2018 at 5:39 PM, Candace Frederick > wrote: > > Which, to me, means that even though stoves are banned, they > > will be used. > > STOVES ARE NOT BANNED ON THE TRAIL!!! > > There are two short sections of the trail (130mi total) where they > cannot be used. > > 130 miles on a a 2600 mile trail > From brick at brickrobbins.com Wed Jan 10 21:53:25 2018 From: brick at brickrobbins.com (Brick Robbins) Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2018 19:53:25 -0800 Subject: [pct-l] Stove less In-Reply-To: References: <160e0b4e5f0-171d-47f02@webjas-vad074.srv.aolmail.net> Message-ID: On Wed, Jan 10, 2018 at 7:05 PM, Candace Frederick wrote: > Yes, I realize this. then stop saying "stoves are banned on the trail" because they are not. There is an 80 mile section and a 50 mile section. for a typical thru-hiker hiking 25 miles per day this will be 3 or 4 nights, not "a bunch of nights." This really isn't a big deal for a thru hiker. Stop making it one. From paintyourwagonhikes at gmail.com Wed Jan 10 22:34:01 2018 From: paintyourwagonhikes at gmail.com (Paint YW) Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2018 21:34:01 -0700 Subject: [pct-l] Stove less In-Reply-To: References: <160e0b4e5f0-171d-47f02@webjas-vad074.srv.aolmail.net> Message-ID: Well Hello Everybody! Great participation by all on the hot topic of the day- Fire bans in the Angeles NF! One interesting aspect of the declared ruling is that SMOKERS may continue to light up in a designated campground, provided they have the requisite cleared landscape as defined by the order. Tobacco and marijuana users UNITE! Or is that REJOICE? LOL! You gotta' love unyielding authority... Any who- time to ask some serious questions. Have hikers set the forest on fire? Have stove users set the forest on fire? What kind of stoves were hikers using, if and when they set the forest on fire? Asking for a friend. OK- Let me say that NO ONE wants to set the forest on fire, AND some people don't like being pigeon holed into a minuscule cubicle with a bunch of flat-landers' that rape, pillage, plunder and burn. With THAT being said- one can traverse the Angeles NF in about 7 days and continue to press on to the promised land. I'll be asking for your vote in the not too distant future, and would REALLY like your support! Just kidding... not really. Anyway, EVERYONE that has had something to say about the fire ban is appreciated and is welcome to chime in further, for the greater good. Loves me some fellow hikers! Paint On Wed, Jan 10, 2018 at 8:53 PM, Brick Robbins wrote: > On Wed, Jan 10, 2018 at 7:05 PM, Candace Frederick > wrote: > > Yes, I realize this. > > then stop saying "stoves are banned on the trail" because they are not. > > There is an 80 mile section and a 50 mile section. for a typical > thru-hiker hiking 25 miles per day this will be 3 or 4 nights, not "a > bunch of nights." > > This really isn't a big deal for a thru hiker. Stop making it one. > _______________________________________________ > Pct-L mailing list > Pct-L at backcountry.net > To unsubscribe, or change options visit: > http://mailman.backcountry.net/mailman/listinfo/pct-l > > List Archives: > http://mailman.backcountry.net/pipermail/pct-l/ > All content is copyrighted by the respective authors. > Reproduction is prohibited without express permission. > From gary_schenk at verizon.net Thu Jan 11 09:24:49 2018 From: gary_schenk at verizon.net (Gary Schenk) Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2018 10:24:49 -0500 Subject: [pct-l] Stove less In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <160e5d2db61-1729-3cbb0@webjas-vac227.srv.aolmail.net> -----Original Message----- From: Paint YW ... Any who- time to ask some serious questions. Have hikers set the forest on fire? Have stove users set the forest on fire? What kind of stoves were hikers using, if and when they set the forest on fire? Asking for a friend. ********************************************************************************** Postholer has documented three, although I believe the 1997 fire was caused by someone down in the East Fork San Gabriel River, not on the PCT. https://www.postholer.com/faq.php#Fire%20safety Gary From gary_schenk at verizon.net Thu Jan 11 09:38:48 2018 From: gary_schenk at verizon.net (Gary Schenk) Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2018 10:38:48 -0500 Subject: [pct-l] Stove less In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <160e5dfa488-1720-57f52@webjas-vac134.srv.aolmail.net> -----Original Message----- From: Brick Robbins I do not see how stove usage is evidence that "PCT hikers cannot be trusted with fire" and I still don't see how fire rings have anything to do with stoves. Also, as a resident of Southern California, who frequents the PCT year round, not just the thru-hiker season, I can assure you that the vast majority of the use the trail gets is not from thru-hikers, but from weekenders, hunters and day hikers. The proximity of Angeles NF to Los Angeles gives easy access city folks who have no clue about things like Leave No Trace, Fire Safety or even cleaning up their own garbage. The weekend after the opening of Deer Season here in San Diego country, much of the area around the PCT is littered with fire rings, spent shell casing, and empty beer cans. I avoid the backcountry on Opening Day. A person just can't wear enough orange to feel comfortable. While I support education, and "getting the word out," it will require outreach to the non-hiking population, not demeaning messages telling thru hikers that they can't be trusted with fire. IMHO. *********************************************************************************** Brick, you are right, of course. But a lot of the fire rings I find are where PCTers camp. Most hunters don't even get out of their trucks! :-) There was a fellow on the trail a few years ago, forget his name, who was posting a journal. I removed a couple of his fire rings. All illegal. Even after putting a post on his journal guestbook suggesting that the fires were not cool, he kept on. There's a series of youtubes posted by a woman who thruhiked last year. I didn't view all of them, yet saw at least three illegal fires in the Angeles and Kings Canyon. Not to mention setting her tent up next to a small stream in the southern sections trampling riparian habitat. And she was an "expert." Most hikers can be trusted with fire, I agree, but as the trail population increases so does the number of those who can't. Which of course has nothing to do with a stove ban. Gary From marmotwestvanc at hotmail.com Thu Jan 11 11:37:20 2018 From: marmotwestvanc at hotmail.com (marmot marmot) Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2018 17:37:20 +0000 Subject: [pct-l] Ongoing discussion about fires and stove Message-ID: Let's start with the community that we might be able to reach.---Two thousand(?) thrus and Myths each year There were countless posts on line from hikers about making campfire each night on the PCT. I saw no indication that those were because the people were hyperthermic(that is different) It seemed to be an emotional comfort bit of behavior. Let it go. Wear another layer. Get into your sleeping bag. People come from all over the country and the world and don't understand that this is not a trail on which to make fires. I can't reach every hunter,weekender,day hiker. But we can be proactive about reaching our community. It will become a critical mass at some point. The word will spread. It takes time. Let's start. Those of you on the 2018 Facebook page please spread the word. Marmot Sent from my iPhone From paintyourwagonhikes at gmail.com Thu Jan 11 20:28:41 2018 From: paintyourwagonhikes at gmail.com (Paint YW) Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2018 19:28:41 -0700 Subject: [pct-l] Heads Up! Remaining long distance permits available Jan. 17th- Message-ID: Starting at or near the Mexican border (both thru-hikers and section hikers) These permits are limited to 50 people per day. We will release these permits in two phases, so if you miss getting a permit in the first phase, you?ll have the opportunity to try again. 1. On Nov. 1 at 10:30 a.m. Pacific time, 35 permits per day will become available. 2. *On Jan. 17 at 10:30 a.m. Pacific time, the remaining 15 permits per day will become available.* Starting in the Southern Sierra or overlap on the JMT/PCT section 1. *We?ll start accepting permit applications on January 17 at 10:30 a.m. Pacific time.* Over the last several years, there has been a significant increase in demand for permits to hike in the Sierra Nevada. To protect access and preserve the quality of the experience, permits will be limited. For the 2018 season, PCTA issued permits in this region will be held at the 2017 levels. 1400 permits are available for section hikes passing through the JMT overlap section from Mt. Whitney to Tuolumne Meadows. 600 of those permits may start at trailheads within the Southern Sierra from Kennedy Meadows South to Sonora Pass. Permits are first come, first served. If you?re unable to get a PCTA issued permit, you?ll need to contact the local land management agency or plan a trip on another section of the PCT. Starting elsewhere (Southbound thru-hikers and other section hike itineraries) 1. *We?ll start accepting permit applications on January 17 at 10:30 a.m. Pacific time.* Good luck everybody! Paint https://www.pcta.org/discover-the-trail/permits/pct-long-distance-permit/ From paintyourwagonhikes at gmail.com Thu Jan 11 21:19:34 2018 From: paintyourwagonhikes at gmail.com (Paint YW) Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2018 20:19:34 -0700 Subject: [pct-l] So there I was... staring into a PCTA Contact us *Message dialog box Message-ID: *Message I've been a participant in the latest conversations at the PCT-L (list serve) regarding the recent implementation of a total fire ban in the Angeles NF. If the weather continues it's trend (another drought year) the forest is again, going to be a tinderbox. The idea came to my mind to have the 2018 hikers voluntarily pledge not to start fires along the trail. Note: I am not against fires in established campgrounds, where water is available, and I am emphatically for the use of gas backpacking stoves out on the trail, with proper precautions. The PCTA might set up a registration on it's website, where those taking the pledge would see their pledge (name) displayed openly and united in purpose with their peers. I believe some kind of awareness campaign is in order, using all of the PCTA's tools, like- The Communicator, the PCTA website, PCTA speakers at gatherings, PCTA personnel posting at hiking forums or boards, and perhaps a pledge option included in the e-mailing of this year's permits. This would need to be constructed quickly, as the permit distribution process is just around the corner. Or, if time is too short, a stand alone email message sent independently of the permits, with the pledge option included inside the message's body. Best regards, Paint From tokencivilian at yahoo.com Fri Jan 12 09:41:33 2018 From: tokencivilian at yahoo.com (Barry Teschlog) Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2018 15:41:33 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [pct-l] Permits / Southern Sierra References: <696321693.1477101.1515771693293.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <696321693.1477101.1515771693293@mail.yahoo.com> In re Paint's message about section permits. Here's another suggestion for those wanting to do a ~200-ish mile section hike of the Southern Sierra: Enter at Kennedy Meadows and go up to Mammoth.? Permits were a snap at the Eastern Sierra Interagency Visitors Center on the south edge of Lone Pine.? Allow about an hour.? You'll need an estimated itinerary (miles / camp locations).? We were permitted through all the way to Reds Meadow / Mammoth.? Another advantage of starting here is that you'll get a few days to acclimate to the altitude as you work your way north toward Forrester Pass..? This is a non-quota trailhead so we got the permits with a "walk up".? Long term parking is available at the campground (inquired at the store).? Sierra Trails Ride Share can help you shuttle back and forth at the end of your hike. It's permissible to exit and re-enter via quota trailheads for supplies, so long as you do so within 24 hours (we had Onion Valley / Kearsarge Pass in our permitted plan.)? On this point, we researched quite carefully with the Agencies. If you time your start in late June / early July, most of the herd will be long gone and KM will be pretty quiet.? In normal snow years, you'll have minimal issues with snow or creek crossings by this time.? We left there on July 10th and there were only a few (as in 2-4) thru's there. From nathan at bousfield.me Fri Jan 12 14:44:19 2018 From: nathan at bousfield.me (nathan at bousfield.me) Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2018 12:44:19 -0800 Subject: [pct-l] So there I was... staring into a PCTA Contact us *Message dialog box In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Looks like there is a new fire order that allows campfires and stoves in established recreation areas (campfires and stoves are prohibited outside established recreation areas) https://www.fs.usda.gov/Internet/FSE_DOCUMENTS/fseprd569060.pdf > On Jan 11, 2018, at 7:19 PM, Paint YW wrote: > > *Message > > I've been a participant in the latest conversations at the PCT-L (list > serve) regarding the recent implementation of a total fire ban in the > Angeles NF. > > If the weather continues it's trend (another drought year) the forest is > again, going to be a tinderbox. > > The idea came to my mind to have the 2018 hikers voluntarily pledge not to > start fires along the trail. Note: I am not against fires in established > campgrounds, where water is available, and I am emphatically for the use > of gas backpacking stoves out on the trail, with proper precautions. > > The PCTA might set up a registration on it's website, where those taking > the pledge would see their pledge (name) displayed openly and united in > purpose with their peers. > > I believe some kind of awareness campaign is in order, using all of the > PCTA's tools, like- The Communicator, the PCTA website, PCTA speakers at > gatherings, PCTA personnel posting at hiking forums or boards, and perhaps > a pledge option included in the e-mailing of this year's permits. This > would need to be constructed quickly, as the permit distribution process is > just around the corner. Or, if time is too short, a stand alone email > message sent independently of the permits, with the pledge option included > inside the message's body. > > Best regards, > > Paint > _______________________________________________ > Pct-L mailing list > Pct-L at backcountry.net > To unsubscribe, or change options visit: > http://mailman.backcountry.net/mailman/listinfo/pct-l > > List Archives: > http://mailman.backcountry.net/pipermail/pct-l/ > All content is copyrighted by the respective authors. > Reproduction is prohibited without express permission. From brick at brickrobbins.com Fri Jan 12 15:04:01 2018 From: brick at brickrobbins.com (Brick Robbins) Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2018 13:04:01 -0800 Subject: [pct-l] Stoves are now OK to use in parts of Angeles NF Message-ID: On Fri, Jan 12, 2018 at 12:44 PM, wrote: > Looks like there is a new fire order that allows campfires and stoves in established recreation areas (campfires and stoves are prohibited outside established recreation areas) https://www.fs.usda.gov/Internet/FSE_DOCUMENTS/fseprd569060.pdf Thanks Nathan for this link. I re-posted it here with a different subject line so people will be sure to see it The old "no stoves at all" order was dated 4 Jan https://www.fs.usda.gov/Internet/FSE_DOCUMENTS/fseprd568359.pdf This new order (linked to above) supersedes it, dated 12 Jan, and now you can use your stove in an "established recreation area" The sky is no longer falling as long as you cook in those areas. Now back to discussing how PCT Thru Hikers can't be trusted with fire, and the evilness of fire rings, and no-cook meals From jdrewsmith at gmail.com Fri Jan 12 15:05:39 2018 From: jdrewsmith at gmail.com (Drew Smith) Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2018 21:05:39 +0000 Subject: [pct-l] So there I was... staring into a PCTA Contact us *Message dialog box In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Not surprising that they are backtracking on the original poorly-thought-out and sloppily-worded order. It does appear that they are banning alcohol stoves, no surprise. Query: are there ANY data (not anecdotes about spilling cat food can stoves) which indicate that alcohol stoves are more likely to start a wildfire than other kinds of stoves? White gas stoves, with their priming pans, high pressure and many potential leak points, have always seemed to me to be far more dangerous. On Fri, Jan 12, 2018 at 1:57 PM wrote: > Looks like there is a new fire order that allows campfires and stoves in > established recreation areas (campfires and stoves are prohibited outside > established recreation areas) > https://www.fs.usda.gov/Internet/FSE_DOCUMENTS/fseprd569060.pdf > > > -- Walking to the light From paintyourwagonhikes at gmail.com Fri Jan 12 15:31:45 2018 From: paintyourwagonhikes at gmail.com (Paint YW) Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2018 14:31:45 -0700 Subject: [pct-l] So there I was... staring into a PCTA Contact us *Message dialog box In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: [ a developed recreation site ] is what? I ask because I was thinking about (prior to the easing of restrictions) the parking lots, some with pit toilets and on occasion a picnic table, that one encounters when crossing (up to 8 times) the Angeles Crest Hwy. It would take quite an effort to set the forest on fire if one were to use a gas stove- at one of these parking areas, or more particularly within the vestibule area of a pit toilet. My initial reaction to the original stringent fire ban was fundamentally driven by the question whether the ban would be adopted by most if not all of the NF agencies along the trail. Paint. On Fri, Jan 12, 2018 at 1:44 PM, wrote: > Looks like there is a new fire order that allows campfires and stoves in > established recreation areas (campfires and stoves are prohibited outside > established recreation areas) https://www.fs.usda. > gov/Internet/FSE_DOCUMENTS/fseprd569060.pdf > > On Jan 11, 2018, at 7:19 PM, Paint YW > wrote: > > *Message > > I've been a participant in the latest conversations at the PCT-L (list > serve) regarding the recent implementation of a total fire ban in the > Angeles NF. > > If the weather continues it's trend (another drought year) the forest is > again, going to be a tinderbox. > > The idea came to my mind to have the 2018 hikers voluntarily pledge not to > start fires along the trail. Note: I am not against fires in established > campgrounds, where water is available, and I am emphatically for the use > of gas backpacking stoves out on the trail, with proper precautions. > > The PCTA might set up a registration on it's website, where those taking > the pledge would see their pledge (name) displayed openly and united in > purpose with their peers. > > I believe some kind of awareness campaign is in order, using all of the > PCTA's tools, like- The Communicator, the PCTA website, PCTA speakers at > gatherings, PCTA personnel posting at hiking forums or boards, and perhaps > a pledge option included in the e-mailing of this year's permits. This > would need to be constructed quickly, as the permit distribution process is > just around the corner. Or, if time is too short, a stand alone email > message sent independently of the permits, with the pledge option included > inside the message's body. > > Best regards, > > Paint > _______________________________________________ > Pct-L mailing list > Pct-L at backcountry.net > To unsubscribe, or change options visit: > http://mailman.backcountry.net/mailman/listinfo/pct-l > > List Archives: > http://mailman.backcountry.net/pipermail/pct-l/ > All content is copyrighted by the respective authors. > Reproduction is prohibited without express permission. > > From paintyourwagonhikes at gmail.com Fri Jan 12 15:39:20 2018 From: paintyourwagonhikes at gmail.com (Paint YW) Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2018 14:39:20 -0700 Subject: [pct-l] [ a developed recreation site ] is what? Message-ID: I am posting this again because the subject line was in-congruent with the message's body. [ a developed recreation site ] is what? I ask because I was thinking about (prior to the easing of restrictions) the parking lots, some with pit toilets and on occasion a picnic table, that one encounters when crossing (up to 8 times) the Angeles Crest Hwy. It would take quite an effort to set the forest on fire if one were to use a gas stove- at one of these parking areas, or more particularly within the vestibule area of a pit toilet. My initial reaction to the original stringent fire ban was fundamentally driven by the question whether the ban would be adopted by most if not all of the NF agencies along the trail. Paint From jdrewsmith at gmail.com Fri Jan 12 15:46:23 2018 From: jdrewsmith at gmail.com (Drew Smith) Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2018 21:46:23 +0000 Subject: [pct-l] [ a developed recreation site ] is what? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: You know by now that the answer is to be found in CFR21. We all carry a copy with us on the trail, right? As long as you have your pocket CFR handy, the FS's proclamations are perfectly clear. On Fri, Jan 12, 2018 at 2:40 PM Paint YW wrote: > I am posting this again because the subject line was in-congruent with the > message's body. > > [ a developed recreation site ] is what? > > I ask because I was thinking about (prior to the easing of restrictions) > the parking lots, some with pit toilets and on occasion a picnic table, > that one encounters when crossing (up to 8 times) the Angeles Crest Hwy. It > would take quite an effort to set the forest on fire if one were to use a > gas stove- at one of these parking areas, or more particularly within the > vestibule area of a pit toilet. > > My initial reaction to the original stringent fire ban was fundamentally > driven by the question whether the ban would be adopted by most if not all > of the NF agencies along the trail. > > Paint > _______________________________________________ > Pct-L mailing list > Pct-L at backcountry.net > To unsubscribe, or change options visit: > http://mailman.backcountry.net/mailman/listinfo/pct-l > > List Archives: > http://mailman.backcountry.net/pipermail/pct-l/ > All content is copyrighted by the respective authors. > Reproduction is prohibited without express permission. > -- Walking to the light From brick at brickrobbins.com Fri Jan 12 20:28:56 2018 From: brick at brickrobbins.com (Brick Robbins) Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2018 18:28:56 -0800 Subject: [pct-l] So there I was... staring into a PCTA Contact us *Message dialog box In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Jan 12, 2018 at 1:31 PM, Paint YW wrote: > [ a developed recreation site ] is what? Google pointed me to this official definition "Developed recreation site" means an area which has been improved or developed for recreation. https://www.fs.fed.us/lei/forest-rules.php From brick at brickrobbins.com Fri Jan 12 20:30:23 2018 From: brick at brickrobbins.com (Brick Robbins) Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2018 18:30:23 -0800 Subject: [pct-l] [ a developed recreation site ] is what? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Jan 12, 2018 at 1:39 PM, Paint YW wrote: > I am posting this again because the subject line was in-congruent with the > message's body. > > [ a developed recreation site ] is what? Google pointed me to this official definition: "Developed recreation site" means an area which has been improved or developed for recreation. https://www.fs.fed.us/lei/forest-rules.php From paintyourwagonhikes at gmail.com Sat Jan 13 17:49:14 2018 From: paintyourwagonhikes at gmail.com (Paint YW) Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2018 16:49:14 -0700 Subject: [pct-l] Getting down to NF brass tacks- Developed recreation sites. [ definition ] & Fire. [ definition ] Message-ID: ?261.16 Developed recreation sites. Developed recreation site means an area which has been improved or developed for recreation. The following are prohibited: (a) Occupying any portion of the site for other than recreation purposes. *(b) Building, attending, maintaining, or using a fire outside of a fire ring provided by the Forest Service for such purpose or outside of a stove, grill or fireplace.* (c) Cleaning or washing any personal property, fish, animal, or food, or bathing or washing at a hydrant or water faucet not provided for that purpose. (d) Discharging or igniting a firecracker, rocket or other firework, or explosive. (e) Occupying between 10 p.m. and 6 a.m. a place designated for day use only. (f) Failing to remove all camping equipment or personal property when vacating the area or site. (g) Placing, maintaining, or using camping equipment except in a place specifically designated or provided for such equipment. (h) Without permission, failing to have at least one person occupy a camping area during the first night after camping equipment has been set up. (i) Leaving camping equipment unattended for more than 24 hours without permission. (j) Bringing in or possessing an animal, other than a service animal, unless it is crated, caged, or upon a leash not longer than six feet, or otherwise under physical restrictive control. (k) Bringing in or possessing in a swimming area an animal, other than a service animal. (l) Bringing in or possessing a saddle, pack, or draft animal except as authorized by posted instructions. (m) Operating or parking a motor vehicle or trailer except in places developed or designated for this purpose. (n) Operating a bicycle, motorbike, or motorcycle on a trail unless designated for this use. (o) Operating a motorbike, motorcycle, or other motor vehicle for any purpose other than entering or leaving the site. (p) Depositing any body waste except into receptacles provided for that purpose. [42 FR 2957, Jan. 14, 1977, as amended at 46 FR 33520, June 30, 1981; 49 FR 25450, June 21, 1984; 60 FR 45295, Aug. 30, 1995. Redesignated at 70 FR 68291, Nov. 9, 2005; 76 FR 58404, Sept. 21, 2011] ?261.5 Fire. Campfire means a fire, not within any building, mobile home or living accommodation mounted on a motor vehicle, which is used for cooking, personal warmth, lighting, ceremonial, or esthetic purposes. Fire includes campfire. *Stove fire* means a campfire built inside an enclosed stove or grill, a portable brazier, or a pressurized liquid or gas stove, including a space-heating device. The following are prohibited: (a) Carelessly or negligently throwing or placing any ignited substance or other substance that may cause a fire. (b) Firing any tracer bullet or incendiary ammunition. (c) Causing timber, trees, slash, brush or grass to burn except as authorized by permit. (d) Leaving a fire without completely extinguishing it. *(e) Causing and failing to maintain control of a fire that is not a prescribed fire that damages the National Forest System.* *(f) Building, attending, maintaining, or using a campfire without removing all flammable material from around the campfire adequate to prevent its escape.* (g) Negligently failing to maintain control of a prescribed fire on Non-National Forest System lands that damages the National Forest System. [42 FR 2957, Jan. 14, 1977, as amended at 46 FR 33520, June 30, 1981; 73 FR 30307, May 27, 2008] -Paint- From gary_schenk at verizon.net Sat Jan 13 19:03:06 2018 From: gary_schenk at verizon.net (Gary Schenk) Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2018 20:03:06 -0500 Subject: [pct-l] So there I was... staring into a PCTA Contact us *Message dialog box In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <160f231026c-1721-4bd14@webjas-vaa131.srv.aolmail.net> -----Original Message----- From: Drew Smith Cc: pct-l Sent: Fri, Jan 12, 2018 1:05 pm Subject: Re: [pct-l] So there I was... staring into a PCTA Contact us *Message dialog box Query: are there ANY data (not anecdotes about spilling cat food can stoves) which indicate that alcohol stoves are more likely to start a wildfire than other kinds of stoves? White gas stoves, with their priming pans, high pressure and many potential leak points, have always seemed to me to be far more dangerous. ****************************************************************** https://www.postholer.com/faq.php#Fire%20safety From laurie_h1234 at yahoo.com Sun Jan 14 08:17:56 2018 From: laurie_h1234 at yahoo.com (Laurie Hallum) Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2018 14:17:56 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [pct-l] So there I was... staring into a PCTA Contact us *Message dialog box In-Reply-To: <160f231026c-1721-4bd14@webjas-vaa131.srv.aolmail.net> References: <160f231026c-1721-4bd14@webjas-vaa131.srv.aolmail.net> Message-ID: <253727132.2889632.1515939476901@mail.yahoo.com> ? ? ?I have seen two fires?started from the stove with a pump-up?canister and little dish of fuel below the fire. ?The two backpackers were different people on two different hikes. ?Fortunately they were small fires and put out quickly. ?I'll stick with my Jet Boil. ?Lady Pegasus On Saturday, January 13, 2018 5:03 PM, Gary Schenk wrote: -----Original Message----- From: Drew Smith Cc: pct-l Sent: Fri, Jan 12, 2018 1:05 pm Subject: Re: [pct-l] So there I was... staring into a PCTA Contact us *Message dialog box Query: are there ANY data (not anecdotes about spilling cat food can stoves) which indicate that alcohol stoves are more likely to start a wildfire than other kinds of stoves? White gas stoves, with their priming pans, high pressure and many potential leak points, have always seemed to me to be far more dangerous. ****************************************************************** https://www.postholer.com/faq.php#Fire%20safety _______________________________________________ Pct-L mailing list Pct-L at backcountry.net To unsubscribe, or change options visit: http://mailman.backcountry.net/mailman/listinfo/pct-l List Archives: http://mailman.backcountry.net/pipermail/pct-l/ All content is copyrighted by the respective authors. Reproduction is prohibited without express permission. From ned at mountaineducation.org Sun Jan 14 12:57:45 2018 From: ned at mountaineducation.org (ned at mountaineducation.org) Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2018 10:57:45 -0800 Subject: [pct-l] So there I was... staring into a PCTA Contact us *Message dialog box In-Reply-To: <253727132.2889632.1515939476901@mail.yahoo.com> References: <160f231026c-1721-4bd14@webjas-vaa131.srv.aolmail.net> <253727132.2889632.1515939476901@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <04dc01d38d69$90dcd370$b2967a50$@mountaineducation.org> Starting about 8-10 years ago, I began noticing scorch rings, sometimes multiple ones, on the wooden table tops in campgrounds along the PCT. Since I don't visit many in SoCal, it must have been in Inyo's Horseshoe Meadow, Cottonwood Pass TH to the PCT. Those were the days where the UL philosophy was taking root and everyone was talking about how light alcohol stoves were and little about how you can't see their flames. I don't know if that is still a concern these days, but I wondered if all those small, perfectly circular burnt rings were caused by thru hikers? Ned Tibbits, Director Mountain Education, Inc. ned at mountaineducation.org -----Original Message----- From: Pct-L [mailto:pct-l-bounces at backcountry.net] On Behalf Of Laurie Hallum Sent: Sunday, January 14, 2018 6:18 AM To: Gary Schenk ; pct-l at backcountry.net Subject: Re: [pct-l] So there I was... staring into a PCTA Contact us *Message dialog box I have seen two fires started from the stove with a pump-up canister and little dish of fuel below the fire. The two backpackers were different people on two different hikes. Fortunately they were small fires and put out quickly. I'll stick with my Jet Boil. Lady Pegasus On Saturday, January 13, 2018 5:03 PM, Gary Schenk wrote: -----Original Message----- From: Drew Smith Cc: pct-l Sent: Fri, Jan 12, 2018 1:05 pm Subject: Re: [pct-l] So there I was... staring into a PCTA Contact us *Message dialog box Query: are there ANY data (not anecdotes about spilling cat food can stoves) which indicate that alcohol stoves are more likely to start a wildfire than other kinds of stoves? White gas stoves, with their priming pans, high pressure and many potential leak points, have always seemed to me to be far more dangerous. ****************************************************************** https://www.postholer.com/faq.php#Fire%20safety _______________________________________________ Pct-L mailing list Pct-L at backcountry.net To unsubscribe, or change options visit: http://mailman.backcountry.net/mailman/listinfo/pct-l List Archives: http://mailman.backcountry.net/pipermail/pct-l/ All content is copyrighted by the respective authors. Reproduction is prohibited without express permission. _______________________________________________ Pct-L mailing list Pct-L at backcountry.net To unsubscribe, or change options visit: http://mailman.backcountry.net/mailman/listinfo/pct-l List Archives: http://mailman.backcountry.net/pipermail/pct-l/ All content is copyrighted by the respective authors. Reproduction is prohibited without express permission. From jalaflamme at msn.com Sun Jan 14 13:01:29 2018 From: jalaflamme at msn.com (JOSEPH LAFLAMME) Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2018 19:01:29 +0000 Subject: [pct-l] Stoves are now OK to use in parts of Angeles NF In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Everyone, Not sure if my prior e-mail made it out on this subject, but I wanted to point out Paragraph number 3 under persons exempt from the Order and the second sentence which says that persons with a valid California Campfire Permit may use a portable stove using gas, jellied petroleum or pressurized liquid fuel. Does that resolve the issue that certain stove can be used anywhere in Angeles National Forest? Snake Charmer ________________________________ From: Pct-L on behalf of Brick Robbins Sent: Friday, January 12, 2018 4:04 PM To: pct-l at backcountry.net Subject: [pct-l] Stoves are now OK to use in parts of Angeles NF On Fri, Jan 12, 2018 at 12:44 PM, wrote: > Looks like there is a new fire order that allows campfires and stoves in established recreation areas (campfires and stoves are prohibited outside established recreation areas) https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.fs.usda.gov%2FInternet%2FFSE_DOCUMENTS%2Ffseprd569060.pdf&data=02%7C01%7C%7Ce2870f2b52df43055acc08d55a0015ad%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636513878774270899&sdata=s%2FD4WeQnJFtM8PLNNoEuqDbIxvHhkwVGQrTvXuy%2BWWU%3D&reserved=0 Thanks Nathan for this link. I re-posted it here with a different subject line so people will be sure to see it The old "no stoves at all" order was dated 4 Jan https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.fs.usda.gov%2FInternet%2FFSE_DOCUMENTS%2Ffseprd568359.pdf&data=02%7C01%7C%7Ce2870f2b52df43055acc08d55a0015ad%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636513878774270899&sdata=Q9m8jR%2BnjgU8tMxhpA3%2FX0VSWPAulLX2NW5mlxBKn0E%3D&reserved=0 This new order (linked to above) supersedes it, dated 12 Jan, and now you can use your stove in an "established recreation area" The sky is no longer falling as long as you cook in those areas. Now back to discussing how PCT Thru Hikers can't be trusted with fire, and the evilness of fire rings, and no-cook meals _______________________________________________ Pct-L mailing list Pct-L at backcountry.net To unsubscribe, or change options visit: https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fmailman.backcountry.net%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fpct-l&data=02%7C01%7C%7Ce2870f2b52df43055acc08d55a0015ad%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636513878774270899&sdata=QXl0Of%2Fa5xhaEEREea%2Bxc9FRqIBYNk3BsPMG4Wa7heU%3D&reserved=0 List Archives: https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fmailman.backcountry.net%2Fpipermail%2Fpct-l%2F&data=02%7C01%7C%7Ce2870f2b52df43055acc08d55a0015ad%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636513878774270899&sdata=i6j3fn1VjlSTaqPgzPy4CDZvL0hxAuR8Au5KeUTNENM%3D&reserved=0 All content is copyrighted by the respective authors. Reproduction is prohibited without express permission. From sbryce at scottbryce.com Sun Jan 14 13:44:48 2018 From: sbryce at scottbryce.com (Scott Bryce) Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2018 12:44:48 -0700 Subject: [pct-l] So there I was... staring into a PCTA Contact us *Message dialog box In-Reply-To: <04dc01d38d69$90dcd370$b2967a50$@mountaineducation.org> References: <160f231026c-1721-4bd14@webjas-vaa131.srv.aolmail.net> <253727132.2889632.1515939476901@mail.yahoo.com> <04dc01d38d69$90dcd370$b2967a50$@mountaineducation.org> Message-ID: On 1/14/2018 11:57 AM, ned at mountaineducation.org wrote: > I wondered if all those small, perfectly circular burnt rings were > caused by thru hikers? I'm pretty certain of it. That is why I carried a small piece of aluminum sheet to put under my stove. That and the fact that when I was experimenting with stove designs, two of them set the board they were sitting on on fire. From marmotwestvanc at hotmail.com Sun Jan 14 13:40:28 2018 From: marmotwestvanc at hotmail.com (marmot marmot) Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2018 19:40:28 +0000 Subject: [pct-l] So there I was... staring into a PCTA Contact us *Message dialog box In-Reply-To: <04dc01d38d69$90dcd370$b2967a50$@mountaineducation.org> References: <160f231026c-1721-4bd14@webjas-vaa131.srv.aolmail.net> <253727132.2889632.1515939476901@mail.yahoo.com>, <04dc01d38d69$90dcd370$b2967a50$@mountaineducation.org> Message-ID: This Long distance hiker is responsible for one scorch ring on the floor of the AT shelter just north of the Mahoosec notch(Stover creek?). That was when I was just learning. Tired, dragging in with an overfilled pack, I put too much fuel in my commercial alcohol stove and thankfully did not burn down the shelter. I blew it badly and only having a bit of luck didn't have an even worse result. A good number of new hikers (on every trail)are having trouble even putting up their tents. There is a reason for the multiple stove and fire bans---which change all the time. If one can't put up a tent(tarp), it falls on you or blows away. Not packing enough food means you get hungry. An improperly used stove or a campfire can burn down thousands of acres of brush and forest. That could kill people and will kill animals. The mud slides after a fire can kill even more. The forest can burn so hot that it collapses the trail--threatening hikers and horse packers. It has been shocking to see the burns on the trail. Where there where lovely trees to rest under ,out of the sun, I see low ground cover and stumps. I didn't do the trail in the early years. I can only see what has happened from 1994 to the my last time out there in 2015. I hope that the class of 2018 does not add to the problem Marmot Sent from my iPhone > On Jan 14, 2018, at 10:57 AM, "ned at mountaineducation.org" wrote: > > Starting about 8-10 years ago, I began noticing scorch rings, sometimes multiple ones, on the wooden table tops in campgrounds along the PCT. Since I don't visit many in SoCal, it must have been in Inyo's Horseshoe Meadow, Cottonwood Pass TH to the PCT. Those were the days where the UL philosophy was taking root and everyone was talking about how light alcohol stoves were and little about how you can't see their flames. I don't know if that is still a concern these days, but I wondered if all those small, perfectly circular burnt rings were caused by thru hikers? > > Ned Tibbits, Director > Mountain Education, Inc. > ned at mountaineducation.org > > -----Original Message----- > From: Pct-L [mailto:pct-l-bounces at backcountry.net] On Behalf Of Laurie Hallum > Sent: Sunday, January 14, 2018 6:18 AM > To: Gary Schenk ; pct-l at backcountry.net > Subject: Re: [pct-l] So there I was... staring into a PCTA Contact us *Message dialog box > > I have seen two fires started from the stove with a pump-up canister and little dish of fuel below the fire. The two backpackers were different people on two different hikes. Fortunately they were small fires and put out quickly. I'll stick with my Jet Boil. Lady Pegasus > > On Saturday, January 13, 2018 5:03 PM, Gary Schenk wrote: > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Drew Smith > Cc: pct-l > Sent: Fri, Jan 12, 2018 1:05 pm > Subject: Re: [pct-l] So there I was... staring into a PCTA Contact us *Message dialog box > > Query: are there ANY data (not anecdotes about spilling cat food can > stoves) which indicate that alcohol stoves are more likely to start a wildfire than other kinds of stoves? White gas stoves, with their priming pans, high pressure and many potential leak points, have always seemed to me to be far more dangerous. > ****************************************************************** > https://www.postholer.com/faq.php#Fire%20safety > > _______________________________________________ > Pct-L mailing list > Pct-L at backcountry.net > To unsubscribe, or change options visit: > http://mailman.backcountry.net/mailman/listinfo/pct-l > > List Archives: > http://mailman.backcountry.net/pipermail/pct-l/ > All content is copyrighted by the respective authors. > Reproduction is prohibited without express permission. > > > > _______________________________________________ > Pct-L mailing list > Pct-L at backcountry.net > To unsubscribe, or change options visit: > http://mailman.backcountry.net/mailman/listinfo/pct-l > > List Archives: > http://mailman.backcountry.net/pipermail/pct-l/ > All content is copyrighted by the respective authors. > Reproduction is prohibited without express permission. > > _______________________________________________ > Pct-L mailing list > Pct-L at backcountry.net > To unsubscribe, or change options visit: > http://mailman.backcountry.net/mailman/listinfo/pct-l > > List Archives: > http://mailman.backcountry.net/pipermail/pct-l/ > All content is copyrighted by the respective authors. > Reproduction is prohibited without express permission. From pctl at marcusschwartz.com Sun Jan 14 13:57:44 2018 From: pctl at marcusschwartz.com (Town Food) Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2018 11:57:44 -0800 Subject: [pct-l] Stoves are now OK to use in parts of Angeles NF In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2b98c9a5-c8fd-7fc6-f6a3-0f4eddde1dbd@marcusschwartz.com> No, it says "Persons with a California Campfire Permit are *NOT* exempt..." -=Marcus On 01/14/2018 11:01 AM, JOSEPH LAFLAMME wrote: > Hi Everyone, Not sure if my prior e-mail made it out on this subject, but I wanted to point out Paragraph number 3 under persons exempt from the Order and the second sentence which says that persons with a valid California Campfire Permit may use a portable stove using gas, jellied petroleum or pressurized liquid fuel. > > Does that resolve the issue that certain stove can be used anywhere in Angeles National Forest? > > Snake Charmer > > > > ________________________________ > From: Pct-L on behalf of Brick Robbins > Sent: Friday, January 12, 2018 4:04 PM > To: pct-l at backcountry.net > Subject: [pct-l] Stoves are now OK to use in parts of Angeles NF > > On Fri, Jan 12, 2018 at 12:44 PM, wrote: >> Looks like there is a new fire order that allows campfires and stoves in established recreation areas (campfires and stoves are prohibited outside established recreation areas) https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.fs.usda.gov%2FInternet%2FFSE_DOCUMENTS%2Ffseprd569060.pdf&data=02%7C01%7C%7Ce2870f2b52df43055acc08d55a0015ad%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636513878774270899&sdata=s%2FD4WeQnJFtM8PLNNoEuqDbIxvHhkwVGQrTvXuy%2BWWU%3D&reserved=0 > > Thanks Nathan for this link. I re-posted it here with a different > subject line so people will be sure to see it > > The old "no stoves at all" order was dated 4 Jan > https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.fs.usda.gov%2FInternet%2FFSE_DOCUMENTS%2Ffseprd568359.pdf&data=02%7C01%7C%7Ce2870f2b52df43055acc08d55a0015ad%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636513878774270899&sdata=Q9m8jR%2BnjgU8tMxhpA3%2FX0VSWPAulLX2NW5mlxBKn0E%3D&reserved=0 > > This new order (linked to above) supersedes it, dated 12 Jan, and now > you can use your stove in an "established recreation area" > > The sky is no longer falling as long as you cook in those areas. > > Now back to discussing how PCT Thru Hikers can't be trusted with fire, > and the evilness of fire rings, and no-cook meals > _______________________________________________ > Pct-L mailing list > Pct-L at backcountry.net > To unsubscribe, or change options visit: > https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fmailman.backcountry.net%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fpct-l&data=02%7C01%7C%7Ce2870f2b52df43055acc08d55a0015ad%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636513878774270899&sdata=QXl0Of%2Fa5xhaEEREea%2Bxc9FRqIBYNk3BsPMG4Wa7heU%3D&reserved=0 > > List Archives: > https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fmailman.backcountry.net%2Fpipermail%2Fpct-l%2F&data=02%7C01%7C%7Ce2870f2b52df43055acc08d55a0015ad%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636513878774270899&sdata=i6j3fn1VjlSTaqPgzPy4CDZvL0hxAuR8Au5KeUTNENM%3D&reserved=0 > All content is copyrighted by the respective authors. > Reproduction is prohibited without express permission. > _______________________________________________ > Pct-L mailing list > Pct-L at backcountry.net > To unsubscribe, or change options visit: > http://mailman.backcountry.net/mailman/listinfo/pct-l > > List Archives: > http://mailman.backcountry.net/pipermail/pct-l/ > All content is copyrighted by the respective authors. > Reproduction is prohibited without express permission. > From africa2008 at aol.com Sun Jan 14 14:04:29 2018 From: africa2008 at aol.com (Dennis Washer) Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2018 15:04:29 -0500 Subject: [pct-l] Stoves are now OK to use in parts of Angeles NF In-Reply-To: <2b98c9a5-c8fd-7fc6-f6a3-0f4eddde1dbd@marcusschwartz.com> References: <2b98c9a5-c8fd-7fc6-f6a3-0f4eddde1dbd@marcusschwartz.com> Message-ID: I believe line 3 specifically allows use of stoves with a valid permit. Sent from my iPhone > On Jan 14, 2018, at 14:57, Town Food wrote: > > No, it says "Persons with a California Campfire Permit are *NOT* exempt..." > > -=Marcus > >> On 01/14/2018 11:01 AM, JOSEPH LAFLAMME wrote: >> Hi Everyone, Not sure if my prior e-mail made it out on this subject, but I wanted to point out Paragraph number 3 under persons exempt from the Order and the second sentence which says that persons with a valid California Campfire Permit may use a portable stove using gas, jellied petroleum or pressurized liquid fuel. >> Does that resolve the issue that certain stove can be used anywhere in Angeles National Forest? >> Snake Charmer >> ________________________________ >> From: Pct-L on behalf of Brick Robbins >> Sent: Friday, January 12, 2018 4:04 PM >> To: pct-l at backcountry.net >> Subject: [pct-l] Stoves are now OK to use in parts of Angeles NF >>> On Fri, Jan 12, 2018 at 12:44 PM, wrote: >>> Looks like there is a new fire order that allows campfires and stoves in established recreation areas (campfires and stoves are prohibited outside established recreation areas) https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.fs.usda.gov%2FInternet%2FFSE_DOCUMENTS%2Ffseprd569060.pdf&data=02%7C01%7C%7Ce2870f2b52df43055acc08d55a0015ad%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636513878774270899&sdata=s%2FD4WeQnJFtM8PLNNoEuqDbIxvHhkwVGQrTvXuy%2BWWU%3D&reserved=0 >> Thanks Nathan for this link. I re-posted it here with a different >> subject line so people will be sure to see it >> The old "no stoves at all" order was dated 4 Jan >> https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.fs.usda.gov%2FInternet%2FFSE_DOCUMENTS%2Ffseprd568359.pdf&data=02%7C01%7C%7Ce2870f2b52df43055acc08d55a0015ad%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636513878774270899&sdata=Q9m8jR%2BnjgU8tMxhpA3%2FX0VSWPAulLX2NW5mlxBKn0E%3D&reserved=0 >> This new order (linked to above) supersedes it, dated 12 Jan, and now >> you can use your stove in an "established recreation area" >> The sky is no longer falling as long as you cook in those areas. >> Now back to discussing how PCT Thru Hikers can't be trusted with fire, >> and the evilness of fire rings, and no-cook meals >> _______________________________________________ >> Pct-L mailing list >> Pct-L at backcountry.net >> To unsubscribe, or change options visit: >> https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fmailman.backcountry.net%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fpct-l&data=02%7C01%7C%7Ce2870f2b52df43055acc08d55a0015ad%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636513878774270899&sdata=QXl0Of%2Fa5xhaEEREea%2Bxc9FRqIBYNk3BsPMG4Wa7heU%3D&reserved=0 >> List Archives: >> https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fmailman.backcountry.net%2Fpipermail%2Fpct-l%2F&data=02%7C01%7C%7Ce2870f2b52df43055acc08d55a0015ad%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636513878774270899&sdata=i6j3fn1VjlSTaqPgzPy4CDZvL0hxAuR8Au5KeUTNENM%3D&reserved=0 >> All content is copyrighted by the respective authors. >> Reproduction is prohibited without express permission. >> _______________________________________________ >> Pct-L mailing list >> Pct-L at backcountry.net >> To unsubscribe, or change options visit: >> http://mailman.backcountry.net/mailman/listinfo/pct-l >> List Archives: >> http://mailman.backcountry.net/pipermail/pct-l/ >> All content is copyrighted by the respective authors. >> Reproduction is prohibited without express permission. > _______________________________________________ > Pct-L mailing list > Pct-L at backcountry.net > To unsubscribe, or change options visit: > http://mailman.backcountry.net/mailman/listinfo/pct-l > > List Archives: > http://mailman.backcountry.net/pipermail/pct-l/ > All content is copyrighted by the respective authors. > Reproduction is prohibited without express permission. From pctl at marcusschwartz.com Sun Jan 14 14:12:23 2018 From: pctl at marcusschwartz.com (Town Food) Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2018 12:12:23 -0800 Subject: [pct-l] Stoves are now OK to use in parts of Angeles NF In-Reply-To: References: <2b98c9a5-c8fd-7fc6-f6a3-0f4eddde1dbd@marcusschwartz.com> Message-ID: <451d4dd3-2e6e-8535-35f1-fd0b8a838e01@marcusschwartz.com> Err... Right, sorry about that. -=Marcus On 01/14/2018 12:04 PM, Dennis Washer wrote: > I believe line 3 specifically allows use of stoves with a valid permit. > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Jan 14, 2018, at 14:57, Town Food wrote: >> >> No, it says "Persons with a California Campfire Permit are *NOT* exempt..." >> >> -=Marcus >> >>> On 01/14/2018 11:01 AM, JOSEPH LAFLAMME wrote: >>> Hi Everyone, Not sure if my prior e-mail made it out on this subject, but I wanted to point out Paragraph number 3 under persons exempt from the Order and the second sentence which says that persons with a valid California Campfire Permit may use a portable stove using gas, jellied petroleum or pressurized liquid fuel. >>> Does that resolve the issue that certain stove can be used anywhere in Angeles National Forest? >>> Snake Charmer >>> ________________________________ >>> From: Pct-L on behalf of Brick Robbins >>> Sent: Friday, January 12, 2018 4:04 PM >>> To: pct-l at backcountry.net >>> Subject: [pct-l] Stoves are now OK to use in parts of Angeles NF >>>> On Fri, Jan 12, 2018 at 12:44 PM, wrote: >>>> Looks like there is a new fire order that allows campfires and stoves in established recreation areas (campfires and stoves are prohibited outside established recreation areas) https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.fs.usda.gov%2FInternet%2FFSE_DOCUMENTS%2Ffseprd569060.pdf&data=02%7C01%7C%7Ce2870f2b52df43055acc08d55a0015ad%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636513878774270899&sdata=s%2FD4WeQnJFtM8PLNNoEuqDbIxvHhkwVGQrTvXuy%2BWWU%3D&reserved=0 >>> Thanks Nathan for this link. I re-posted it here with a different >>> subject line so people will be sure to see it >>> The old "no stoves at all" order was dated 4 Jan >>> https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.fs.usda.gov%2FInternet%2FFSE_DOCUMENTS%2Ffseprd568359.pdf&data=02%7C01%7C%7Ce2870f2b52df43055acc08d55a0015ad%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636513878774270899&sdata=Q9m8jR%2BnjgU8tMxhpA3%2FX0VSWPAulLX2NW5mlxBKn0E%3D&reserved=0 >>> This new order (linked to above) supersedes it, dated 12 Jan, and now >>> you can use your stove in an "established recreation area" >>> The sky is no longer falling as long as you cook in those areas. >>> Now back to discussing how PCT Thru Hikers can't be trusted with fire, >>> and the evilness of fire rings, and no-cook meals >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Pct-L mailing list >>> Pct-L at backcountry.net >>> To unsubscribe, or change options visit: >>> https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fmailman.backcountry.net%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fpct-l&data=02%7C01%7C%7Ce2870f2b52df43055acc08d55a0015ad%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636513878774270899&sdata=QXl0Of%2Fa5xhaEEREea%2Bxc9FRqIBYNk3BsPMG4Wa7heU%3D&reserved=0 >>> List Archives: >>> https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fmailman.backcountry.net%2Fpipermail%2Fpct-l%2F&data=02%7C01%7C%7Ce2870f2b52df43055acc08d55a0015ad%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636513878774270899&sdata=i6j3fn1VjlSTaqPgzPy4CDZvL0hxAuR8Au5KeUTNENM%3D&reserved=0 >>> All content is copyrighted by the respective authors. >>> Reproduction is prohibited without express permission. >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Pct-L mailing list >>> Pct-L at backcountry.net >>> To unsubscribe, or change options visit: >>> http://mailman.backcountry.net/mailman/listinfo/pct-l >>> List Archives: >>> http://mailman.backcountry.net/pipermail/pct-l/ >>> All content is copyrighted by the respective authors. >>> Reproduction is prohibited without express permission. >> _______________________________________________ >> Pct-L mailing list >> Pct-L at backcountry.net >> To unsubscribe, or change options visit: >> http://mailman.backcountry.net/mailman/listinfo/pct-l >> >> List Archives: >> http://mailman.backcountry.net/pipermail/pct-l/ >> All content is copyrighted by the respective authors. >> Reproduction is prohibited without express permission. > From brick at brickrobbins.com Sun Jan 14 14:20:24 2018 From: brick at brickrobbins.com (Brick Robbins) Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2018 12:20:24 -0800 Subject: [pct-l] Stoves are now OK to use in parts of Angeles NF In-Reply-To: <2b98c9a5-c8fd-7fc6-f6a3-0f4eddde1dbd@marcusschwartz.com> References: <2b98c9a5-c8fd-7fc6-f6a3-0f4eddde1dbd@marcusschwartz.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Jan 14, 2018 at 11:57 AM, Town Food wrote: > No, it says "Persons with a California Campfire Permit are *NOT* exempt..." Ya gotta read the whole thing. --- After the "NOT exempt..." it says: "However persons with a valid Calfornia Campifre permit may use a portable lantern or stove using gas, jellied petroleum or pressurized liquid fuel" IANAL, but it looks to me that while "stove fires" in general are prohibited except in developed recreation sites, stoves "using gas, jellied petroleum or pressurized liquid fuel" are exempt from this order. In other words, most petroleum stoves are allowed everywhere. There is not "shutoff valve" requirement like in some other forests. I read this to mean that non petroleum based stoves, like alcohol, or wood are not allowed, except in developed recreation sites. From hikermiker at yahoo.com Sun Jan 14 15:18:45 2018 From: hikermiker at yahoo.com (Mike Cunningham) Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2018 21:18:45 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [pct-l] Stoves are now OK to use in parts of Angeles NF References: <1707339153.3032371.1515964725927.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1707339153.3032371.1515964725927@mail.yahoo.com> Pardon my ignorance but the last time I heard a reference to jellied petroleum that meant napalm. What is this stuff? hm -------------------------------------------- On Sun, 1/14/18, Brick Robbins wrote: Subject: Re: [pct-l] Stoves are now OK to use in parts of Angeles NF To: "PCT" Date: Sunday, January 14, 2018, 3:20 PM On Sun, Jan 14, 2018 at 11:57 AM, Town Food wrote: > No, it says "Persons with a California Campfire Permit are *NOT* exempt..." Ya gotta read the whole thing. --- After the "NOT exempt..."? it says: "However persons with a valid Calfornia Campifre permit may use a portable lantern or stove using gas, jellied petroleum or pressurized liquid fuel" IANAL, but it looks to me that while "stove fires" in general are prohibited except in developed recreation sites, stoves "using gas, jellied petroleum or pressurized liquid fuel" are exempt from this order. In other words, most petroleum stoves are allowed everywhere. There is not "shutoff valve"? requirement like in some other forests. I read this to mean that non petroleum based stoves, like alcohol, or wood are not allowed, except in developed recreation sites. _______________________________________________ Pct-L mailing list Pct-L at backcountry.net To unsubscribe, or change options visit: http://mailman.backcountry.net/mailman/listinfo/pct-l List Archives: http://mailman.backcountry.net/pipermail/pct-l/ All content is copyrighted by the respective authors. Reproduction is prohibited without express permission. From brick at brickrobbins.com Sun Jan 14 16:13:08 2018 From: brick at brickrobbins.com (Brick Robbins) Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2018 14:13:08 -0800 Subject: [pct-l] Stoves are now OK to use in parts of Angeles NF In-Reply-To: <1707339153.3032371.1515964725927@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1707339153.3032371.1515964725927.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1707339153.3032371.1515964725927@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Jan 14, 2018 at 1:18 PM, Mike Cunningham wrote: > Pardon my ignorance but the last time I heard a reference to jellied petroleum that meant napalm. What is this stuff? There is no such thing as "jellied petroleum" stove fuel. They probably mean gelled alcohol (e.g. Sterno) To quote Hikin Jim in BPL: "It's just an indicator of how slow to change they are. Every forest I've yet seen lists it that way, even though there's no such thing, yet makes no mention of ESBIT, even though ESBIT is far safer than either white gas or canister gas. Indeed, ESBIT is the safest fuel that a backpacker can use that I'm aware of." From paintyourwagonhikes at gmail.com Sun Jan 14 21:58:01 2018 From: paintyourwagonhikes at gmail.com (Paint YW) Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2018 20:58:01 -0700 Subject: [pct-l] CAL FIRE Campfire Permits Message-ID: General info with link to video- http://www.fire.ca.gov/communications/communications_firesafety_camping_campfirepermits Video and test- http://www.preventwildfireca.org/Permits/ Paint Epilogue: Preacher Paint will now sermonize to the flock. Observation: No hiker that I know will ever carry a shovel while hiking, per the CA Fire Permit requirement, such as the one used in the video. Some hikers will state that their trowel meets the shovel requirement, and some ultra-light hikers will forego carrying a trowel, and will state that they will dig their cat holes by using the tip of their hiking pole, leaving said tip as their primary ground clearing tool. As a noob, I carried an aluminum collapsible shovel, like the kind one might keep in the trunk of their car for an emergency, only to be hounded and mocked by the majority of experienced hikers that I encountered in 2012, at the ADZPCTKO. Succumbing to peer pressure and needing to lighten my pack, as I was easily carrying 60-70 lbs, of gear, food and water, my goal of carrying a shovel all the way to Canada, dissolved by mile 152, and wound up in my friend Evil Goat's possession in Anza, CA. I tried to adhere to the requirement of the CA Fire Permit, in that one is required to have a shovel present, during the use of fire, in order to be compliant, which includes by the way, the same stipulations if using a gas stove. I did not build open fires then, and I do not build open fires now. That being said- my trowel is now my shovel like so many others, and that is where I am at in complying (or not) with my obligation to the creed of the CA Fire Permit. Anybody see the problem? From paintyourwagonhikes at gmail.com Mon Jan 15 09:24:04 2018 From: paintyourwagonhikes at gmail.com (Paint YW) Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2018 08:24:04 -0700 Subject: [pct-l] Stumbled across PCT-L archives going back to 1996 / Here's message #11 http://www.backcountry.net/arch/pct/ Message-ID: ------------------------------ [Date Prev ][Date Next ][Thread Prev ][Thread Next ][Date Index ][Thread Index ][pct-l] my adventure ------------------------------ - *Subject*: [pct-l] my adventure - *From*: POLITECAT at aol.com - *Date*: Sun, 15 Dec 1996 04:36:52 -0500 ------------------------------ i have a story to share with you all. i learned a important lesson from this and i hope you will to. last weekend i got up early and headed to big basin california planning to do my training hike i thought i would hike the 10.6 mile trail because it was a tough one and good practice. so i loaded up my pack with the usuala things. my nylon pants in case of colder weather. my fleece jacket and my rain jacket. my lunch and snacks. (dried veggies gorp and power bar.) in the bottom of my pack lives my survial bag i use it mainly for weight. and about 3 gallons of water. oh ya my walkman some tapes a hiking book and my camera so i payed for my day parking and hoisted my pack on my back and off i went. they ask you have a tleast 6 hours to hike the trail and i had a little more in case but felt i would only take about 5 hours tops. the sky was an overcast greyish hue. a teasing mist would fall semi often but i was hiking pretty fast and it felt good. well the trail signs were visable and for the first 3 hours i was doing great i was booking. and then it happened. somewhere i lost the trail and ended up way far from the park headquarters. you see they had had a fire and trail signs and what not had ben destroyed so i got out my map and compass (from my survival kit) and choose a direction to lead back. it was later than i was happy about but i was confandant i would make it. so i hiked and climbed and skidded (did i mention it had been raining off and on for a week) so things were soaked and puddles and creeks were everywhere. at some point i met up with a biker. as he passed i asked him if he knew what trail we were on and how far from the main headquarters. he said wow it is way that way this is the >>>>>> trail and he gave me some directions to follow so i smiled thanked him and tromped on. almost running . there was only about 1.5 hours of good light left and i was still sure i would be ok and make it back soon. i had rivers to cross soaking my feet in freezing water and squishing my way onwards. so i reached a big main trail/road and followed the signs there and ganced up at the deepening grey sky. soon i reached a cut off my road ended and broke off without any real trail signs and so i followed the most promentant trail which ended at a crossroads. there was a sign it had been placed against a tree either knocked down before or burned. i searched for the orginal post marks in the ground so i could confirm the pointers but to no avail so i took the shortest trail or so i thought the arrow pointed straight ahead to a path of sorts it was overgrown and had a lot of debri on it but because i was racing agaist the clock i just went for it. the trail was sparatic disapearing and reappearing and yet it seemed well used. i was slightly iffy about it but grey was changing to black if i could find the trail a clear trail i could follow it even in the dark. but the farther in i got the smaller and less travable the traail became until it just disappeared. by this time i had maybe about half and hour of light so i pulled out the map and saw that there should be a trail above me somewhere. it was longer than i wanted but at this point any trail was needed. so i began climbing around fallen trees through leaves and debri slipping and sliding on the wet leaves. i tried climbing up and when i reached a point that looked clear i found my way blocked by weeds and bushes rocks and more steep climbs. so i rethought my plan. i heaard a creek and knew the creek was heading towards the other main path and to the park rangers. so i changed directions following my compass reading towards the east. i slipped down a hill scraping my legs pretty bad and then had to climb another steep mud incased mountain my only hold was a razor sharp weed that as i slipped sliced my legs and hands although it did save me from falling. so i crossed a small creek and tried to follow it as well as keep my heading east. by this point it was a light black. and becuase i was under heavy trees even darker the shawdows had turned to intertwining cover. coating the ground with black . i was fighting my brains need to reach safty and my knowledge i waas staying somewhere near tonight. as i started off one more time i somehow ended up in a bog of mud so thick i must have looked like one of those old time comedians swaying left and right with out falling. my shoes would not come out and i struggled a few precious minutes and then one by one they popped out. so when i reached safe ground i looked for a place to stop and set up a mini camp. found a grove with good shelter some good lookiing shelter and not to far from where i ended. so in the mornig i could begin where i ended. instead of wandering amlessly in a circle. so i sat down opened my pack (by now i was cold tired hungry and shaking my head at my new adventure. so i pulled out my nylon pants my fleece jacket and my rain jacket. i put them on and then opened my survial bag. no flashlight. but a candle two clear plastic bags a space bag and a lighter. i also found some pitch wood my knife and my metal match. i had also for some strange reason put a water proof pack cover in my pack. hey great i thought ground sheet. so i started my adventure by tring to start a fire .i tried forever i found some semi dry wood rotted to bits some dead branches but everything was so wet and it was so dark i swear in a blink of an eye the sky became black as the bowels of hell. leaving my and my lighter alone. so i finally gave up on the fire. i burned some pages of my book warming my hands then i made my bed. i opened my bag took off my soaking shoes slipped in to the bag then put the plastic bag over it. i then buried my curled up legs and feet and some of my back in leaves and mud as much as i could find near my. i pulled the bag up and then although i was feeling sick to my stomach and shaking like a belly dancer over drive. i made myself eat my gorp nuts and choclates coconuts and raisins. i gagged a couple handfuls down and drank as much water asi could then pulled the bag over my heaad. right before i covered my face i looked up at the sky laughed a little that i was sleeping out here and thinking all i need now is for it to rain. now i do not know about you all but if you have ever thried to sllep in a space bag and plastic bag it makes one feel kind of like a carton of jiffy pop every movemnet is crinkle crinkle and crunch crunch. but i did slumber for a while waking to the sound of ping ping plop plop. yes you guessed it it had started to rain so i thought quick and pulled out my other plastic bag opened it up poked a hole in the bottom corner near the seams and pulled it over my head placing my mouth through the hole. then i buried my body more snuggled down making sure the top bag was over the other bags so water would run off and not in the bags. sleeping was a impossiblaty. i was so cold and i wanted to stay aware of my body and i found that by every so often moving around (not alot just lighting the candle burning my book or scooping more leaves ) made me warmed and made me feel in control of me. it was so cold and so dark but i knew i would survive and make it out tomorrow. and soon the sky began to lighten and the rain slacked and i knew morning was almost upon me. i must have slept a hour or so for when i awoke the sky was a oveercast grey of morning. so i packed up all my stuff the papers the bags (by the by those space bags are flimsy my tore half way through the night ) i was left with pices wrapping them around what ever was the coldest. so i ate some veggies and some gorp(yummy breakfast) i knew i had about 6 miles to the station and all day to find it so i wanted to try to find the trail i lost last night first i figured if i could not find it then head east. so i walked back sort of the way i came and somehow ended up finding the trail and followed it back to the main sign i took a different trail and low and behold three hours later just 24 after i started i was back to my car. i reported in to the rangers and they yelled at me i did not tell anyone where i was going. i was hiking alone and they had no way to get a hold of my bosses. (it was there car in the lot) so i earned a bunch of lessons. next time tell rangers i am alone and where i am going. i went out today and bought silver nylon and am making my own bag same size better wear. and i am going to practice the fire thing. so i hope you enjoyed my story and maybe learned never ever go any where with out your survial gear you never know what might happen. ps i do need to say that if i had not taken the survial class i would be dead. i would have had on cotton i would not have had any of the clothes i had with me or the survial gear. i am also proud of me becaus ei did not panic freak or cry i did not worry or afraid. i was calm and found humor in it. so i hope to talk with you all soon have a great weekend and smile. the world is a beautiful place. wendy aka polite cat at aol.com. or as i call myself now wendy the forest queen goddess of the woods. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- This message is from the Pacific Crest Trail Mailing List [PCT-L] To unsubscribe email pct-l-request at saffron.hack.net with a message containing the word UNSUBSCRIBE in the body. List admin can be reached at ryan at inc.net ============================================================================== ------------------------------ - Prev by Date: *[pct-l] Introduction... * - Next by Date: *Re: [pct-l] my adventure * - Prev by thread: *[pct-l] Introduction... * - Next by thread: *Re: [pct-l] my adventure * - Index(es): - *Date* - *Thread* From paintyourwagonhikes at gmail.com Mon Jan 15 14:01:17 2018 From: paintyourwagonhikes at gmail.com (Paint YW) Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2018 13:01:17 -0700 Subject: [pct-l] Backcountry.Net PCT-L Archives [ clean link ] Message-ID: http://www.backcountry.net/arch/pct/ Enjoy, -Paint- From catherine.middaugh at gmail.com Mon Jan 15 16:08:34 2018 From: catherine.middaugh at gmail.com (Catherine Middaugh) Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2018 14:08:34 -0800 Subject: [pct-l] Stumbled across PCT-L archives going back to 1996 / Here's message #11 http://www.backcountry.net/arch/pct/ In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Wow does this bring back memories. I've gotten lost in Big Basin State Park more times than I can count. And 1996 was a high rain year. Thanks for the post. On Mon, Jan 15, 2018 at 7:24 AM, Paint YW wrote: > ------------------------------ > [Date Prev ][Date > Next ][Thread Prev > ][Thread Next > ][Date Index > ][Thread Index > ][pct-l] my > adventure > ------------------------------ > > - *Subject*: [pct-l] my adventure > - *From*: POLITECAT at aol.com > - *Date*: Sun, 15 Dec 1996 04:36:52 -0500 > > ------------------------------ > > i have a story to share with you all. > i learned a important lesson from this and i hope you will to. > > last weekend i got up early and headed to big basin california planning to > do > my training hike i thought i would hike the 10.6 mile trail because it was > a > tough one and good practice. so i loaded up my pack with the usuala things. > my nylon pants in case of colder weather. my fleece jacket and my rain > jacket. my lunch and snacks. (dried veggies gorp and power bar.) in the > bottom of my pack lives my survial bag i use it mainly for weight. and > about > 3 gallons of water. oh ya my walkman some tapes a hiking book and my camera > so i payed for my day parking and hoisted my pack on my back and off i > went. > they ask you have a tleast 6 hours to hike the trail and i had a little > more > in case but felt i would only take about 5 hours tops. the sky was an > overcast greyish hue. a teasing mist would fall semi often but i was hiking > pretty fast and it felt good. > well the trail signs were visable and for the first 3 hours i was doing > great > i was booking. and then it happened. somewhere i lost the trail and ended > up > way far from the park headquarters. you see they had had a fire and trail > signs and what not had ben destroyed so i got out my map and compass (from > my > survival kit) and choose a direction to lead back. it was later than i was > happy about but i was confandant i would make it. so i hiked and climbed > and > skidded (did i mention it had been raining off and on for a week) so things > were soaked and puddles and creeks were everywhere. at some point i met up > with a biker. as he passed i asked him if he knew what trail we were on and > how far from the main headquarters. he said wow it is way that way this is > the >>>>>> trail and he gave me some directions to follow so i smiled > thanked > him and tromped on. almost running . there was only about 1.5 hours of good > light left and i was still sure i would be ok and make it back soon. i had > rivers to cross soaking my feet in freezing water and squishing my way > onwards. so i reached a big main trail/road and followed the signs there > and > ganced up at the deepening grey sky. soon i reached a cut off my road > ended > and broke off without any real trail signs and so i followed the most > promentant trail which ended at a crossroads. there was a sign it had been > placed against a tree either knocked down before or burned. i searched for > the orginal post marks in the ground so i could confirm the pointers but to > no avail so i took the shortest trail or so i thought the arrow pointed > straight ahead to a path of sorts it was overgrown and had a lot of debri > on > it but because i was racing agaist the clock i just went for it. the trail > was sparatic disapearing and reappearing and yet it seemed well used. i was > slightly iffy about it but grey was changing to black if i could find the > trail a clear trail i could follow it even in the dark. but the farther in > i > got the smaller and less travable the traail became until it just > disappeared. by this time i had maybe about half and hour of light so i > pulled out the map and saw that there should be a trail above me somewhere. > it was longer than i wanted but at this point any trail was needed. so i > began climbing around fallen trees through leaves and debri slipping and > sliding on the wet leaves. i tried climbing up and when i reached a point > that looked clear i found my way blocked by weeds and bushes rocks and more > steep climbs. so i rethought my plan. i heaard a creek and knew the creek > was > heading towards the other main path and to the park rangers. so i changed > directions following my compass reading towards the east. i slipped down a > hill scraping my legs pretty bad and then had to climb another steep mud > incased mountain my only hold was a razor sharp weed that as i slipped > sliced > my legs and hands although it did save me from falling. so i crossed a > small > creek and tried to follow it as well as keep my heading east. by this point > it was a light black. and becuase i was under heavy trees even darker the > shawdows had turned to intertwining cover. coating the ground with black . > i > was fighting my brains need to reach safty and my knowledge i waas staying > somewhere near tonight. as i started off one more time i somehow ended up > in > a bog of mud so thick i must have looked like one of those old time > comedians > swaying left and right with out falling. my shoes would not come out and i > struggled a few precious minutes and then one by one they popped out. so > when i reached safe ground i looked for a place to stop and set up a mini > camp. found a grove with good shelter some good lookiing shelter and not > to > far from where i ended. so in the mornig i could begin where i ended. > instead of wandering amlessly in a circle. so i sat down opened my pack (by > now i was cold tired hungry and shaking my head at my new adventure. so i > pulled out my nylon pants my fleece jacket and my rain jacket. i put them > on > and then opened my survial bag. no flashlight. but a candle two clear > plastic > bags a space bag and a lighter. i also found some pitch wood my knife and > my > metal match. i had also for some strange reason put a water proof pack > cover > in my pack. hey great i thought ground sheet. so i started my adventure by > tring to start a fire .i tried forever i found some semi dry wood rotted to > bits some dead branches but everything was so wet and it was so dark i > swear > in a blink of an eye the sky became black as the bowels of hell. leaving my > and my lighter alone. so i finally gave up on the fire. i burned some pages > of my book warming my hands then i made my bed. i opened my bag took off my > soaking shoes slipped in to the bag then put the plastic bag over it. i > then > buried my curled up legs and feet and some of my back in leaves and mud as > much as i could find near my. i pulled the bag up and then although i was > feeling sick to my stomach and shaking like a belly dancer over drive. i > made > myself eat my gorp nuts and choclates coconuts and raisins. i gagged a > couple > handfuls down and drank as much water asi could then pulled the bag over > my > heaad. right before i covered my face i looked up at the sky laughed a > little > that i was sleeping out here and thinking all i need now is for it to rain. > now i do not know about you all but if you have ever thried to sllep in a > space bag and plastic bag it makes one feel kind of like a carton of jiffy > pop every movemnet is crinkle crinkle and crunch crunch. but i did slumber > for a while waking to the sound of ping ping plop plop. yes you guessed it > it > had started to rain so i thought quick and pulled out my other plastic bag > opened it up poked a hole in the bottom corner near the seams and pulled it > over my head placing my mouth through the hole. then i buried my body more > snuggled down making sure the top bag was over the other bags so water > would > run off and not in the bags. sleeping was a impossiblaty. i was so cold > and i > wanted to stay aware of my body and i found that by every so often moving > around (not alot just lighting the candle burning my book or scooping more > leaves ) made me warmed and made me feel in control of me. it was so cold > and > so dark but i knew i would survive and make it out tomorrow. and soon the > sky > began to lighten and the rain slacked and i knew morning was almost upon > me. > i must have slept a hour or so for when i awoke the sky was a oveercast > grey > of morning. so i packed up all my stuff the papers the bags (by the by > those > space bags are flimsy my tore half way through the night ) i was left with > pices wrapping them around what ever was the coldest. so i ate some veggies > and some gorp(yummy breakfast) i knew i had about 6 miles to the station > and > all day to find it so i wanted to try to find the trail i lost last night > first i figured if i could not find it then head east. so i walked back > sort > of the way i came and somehow ended up finding the trail and followed it > back > to the main sign i took a different trail and low and behold three hours > later just 24 after i started i was back to my car. i reported in to the > rangers and they yelled at me i did not tell anyone where i was going. i > was > hiking alone and they had no way to get a hold of my bosses. (it was there > car in the lot) so i earned a bunch of lessons. next time tell rangers i am > alone and where i am going. i went out today and bought silver nylon and am > making my own bag same size better wear. and i am going to practice the > fire > thing. so i hope you enjoyed my story and maybe learned never ever go any > where with out your survial gear you never know what might happen. > > ps i do need to say that if i had not taken the survial class i would be > dead. i would have had on cotton i would not have had any of the clothes i > had with me or the survial gear. i am also proud of me becaus ei did not > panic freak or cry i did not worry or afraid. i was calm and found humor in > it. so i hope to talk with you all soon have a great weekend and smile. the > world is a beautiful place. > wendy aka polite cat at aol.com. > or as i call myself now wendy the forest queen goddess of the woods. > ------------------------------------------------------------ > ---------------- > This message is from the Pacific Crest Trail Mailing List > [PCT-L] > To unsubscribe email pct-l-request at saffron.hack.net with a message > containing > the word UNSUBSCRIBE in the body. List admin can be reached at > ryan at inc.net > > ============================================================ > ================== > > ------------------------------ > > - Prev by Date: *[pct-l] Introduction... > * > - Next by Date: *Re: [pct-l] my adventure > * > - Prev by thread: *[pct-l] Introduction... > * > - Next by thread: *Re: [pct-l] my adventure > * > - Index(es): > - *Date* > - *Thread* > > _______________________________________________ > Pct-L mailing list > Pct-L at backcountry.net > To unsubscribe, or change options visit: > http://mailman.backcountry.net/mailman/listinfo/pct-l > > List Archives: > http://mailman.backcountry.net/pipermail/pct-l/ > All content is copyrighted by the respective authors. > Reproduction is prohibited without express permission. > From paintyourwagonhikes at gmail.com Mon Jan 15 18:54:07 2018 From: paintyourwagonhikes at gmail.com (Paint YW) Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2018 17:54:07 -0700 Subject: [pct-l] Stumbled across PCT-L archives going back to 1996 / Here's message #11 http://www.backcountry.net/arch/pct/ In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The format/structure in reading the hiking tale is a bit disconcerting, but the context and tempo is quite interesting and much appreciated. Kudos to the author for being willing to express in depth, details- of what turned out to be a harrowing experience, that contains lessons for survival that all of us can benefit from, no matter the time or place. Don't forget to take a few essentials with you when you are out for stroll... to get you through the night. Been there, done that. Rookie year. Oct., 2012, 2000-2200 hours. JMT, 10,000' - 11,000', on the way down from Whitney, lost the trail, no tent and no sleeping bag. 4 pairs of glowing eyes staring at me (big horn sheep) Later- Brrr. Built a shelter. Glad to see daylight. Thanks- Paint On Mon, Jan 15, 2018 at 3:08 PM, Catherine Middaugh < catherine.middaugh at gmail.com> wrote: > Wow does this bring back memories. I've gotten lost in Big Basin State > Park more times than I can count. And 1996 was a high rain year. Thanks for > the post. > > On Mon, Jan 15, 2018 at 7:24 AM, Paint YW > wrote: > >> ------------------------------ >> [Date Prev ][Date >> Next ][Thread >> Prev >> ][Thread Next >> ][Date Index >> ][Thread Index >> ][pct-l] my >> adventure >> ------------------------------ >> >> - *Subject*: [pct-l] my adventure >> - *From*: POLITECAT at aol.com >> - *Date*: Sun, 15 Dec 1996 04:36:52 -0500 >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> >> i have a story to share with you all. >> i learned a important lesson from this and i hope you will to. >> >> last weekend i got up early and headed to big basin california planning >> to do >> my training hike i thought i would hike the 10.6 mile trail because it >> was a >> tough one and good practice. so i loaded up my pack with the usuala >> things. >> my nylon pants in case of colder weather. my fleece jacket and my rain >> jacket. my lunch and snacks. (dried veggies gorp and power bar.) in the >> bottom of my pack lives my survial bag i use it mainly for weight. and >> about >> 3 gallons of water. oh ya my walkman some tapes a hiking book and my >> camera >> so i payed for my day parking and hoisted my pack on my back and off i >> went. >> they ask you have a tleast 6 hours to hike the trail and i had a little >> more >> in case but felt i would only take about 5 hours tops. the sky was an >> overcast greyish hue. a teasing mist would fall semi often but i was >> hiking >> pretty fast and it felt good. >> well the trail signs were visable and for the first 3 hours i was doing >> great >> i was booking. and then it happened. somewhere i lost the trail and ended >> up >> way far from the park headquarters. you see they had had a fire and trail >> signs and what not had ben destroyed so i got out my map and compass >> (from my >> survival kit) and choose a direction to lead back. it was later than i was >> happy about but i was confandant i would make it. so i hiked and climbed >> and >> skidded (did i mention it had been raining off and on for a week) so >> things >> were soaked and puddles and creeks were everywhere. at some point i met up >> with a biker. as he passed i asked him if he knew what trail we were on >> and >> how far from the main headquarters. he said wow it is way that way this is >> the >>>>>> trail and he gave me some directions to follow so i smiled >> thanked >> him and tromped on. almost running . there was only about 1.5 hours of >> good >> light left and i was still sure i would be ok and make it back soon. i had >> rivers to cross soaking my feet in freezing water and squishing my way >> onwards. so i reached a big main trail/road and followed the signs there >> and >> ganced up at the deepening grey sky. soon i reached a cut off my road >> ended >> and broke off without any real trail signs and so i followed the most >> promentant trail which ended at a crossroads. there was a sign it had been >> placed against a tree either knocked down before or burned. i searched >> for >> the orginal post marks in the ground so i could confirm the pointers but >> to >> no avail so i took the shortest trail or so i thought the arrow pointed >> straight ahead to a path of sorts it was overgrown and had a lot of debri >> on >> it but because i was racing agaist the clock i just went for it. the trail >> was sparatic disapearing and reappearing and yet it seemed well used. i >> was >> slightly iffy about it but grey was changing to black if i could find the >> trail a clear trail i could follow it even in the dark. but the farther >> in i >> got the smaller and less travable the traail became until it just >> disappeared. by this time i had maybe about half and hour of light so i >> pulled out the map and saw that there should be a trail above me >> somewhere. >> it was longer than i wanted but at this point any trail was needed. so i >> began climbing around fallen trees through leaves and debri slipping and >> sliding on the wet leaves. i tried climbing up and when i reached a point >> that looked clear i found my way blocked by weeds and bushes rocks and >> more >> steep climbs. so i rethought my plan. i heaard a creek and knew the creek >> was >> heading towards the other main path and to the park rangers. so i changed >> directions following my compass reading towards the east. i slipped down a >> hill scraping my legs pretty bad and then had to climb another steep mud >> incased mountain my only hold was a razor sharp weed that as i slipped >> sliced >> my legs and hands although it did save me from falling. so i crossed a >> small >> creek and tried to follow it as well as keep my heading east. by this >> point >> it was a light black. and becuase i was under heavy trees even darker the >> shawdows had turned to intertwining cover. coating the ground with black >> . i >> was fighting my brains need to reach safty and my knowledge i waas staying >> somewhere near tonight. as i started off one more time i somehow ended up >> in >> a bog of mud so thick i must have looked like one of those old time >> comedians >> swaying left and right with out falling. my shoes would not come out and i >> struggled a few precious minutes and then one by one they popped out. so >> when i reached safe ground i looked for a place to stop and set up a mini >> camp. found a grove with good shelter some good lookiing shelter and >> not to >> far from where i ended. so in the mornig i could begin where i ended. >> instead of wandering amlessly in a circle. so i sat down opened my pack >> (by >> now i was cold tired hungry and shaking my head at my new adventure. so i >> pulled out my nylon pants my fleece jacket and my rain jacket. i put them >> on >> and then opened my survial bag. no flashlight. but a candle two clear >> plastic >> bags a space bag and a lighter. i also found some pitch wood my knife and >> my >> metal match. i had also for some strange reason put a water proof pack >> cover >> in my pack. hey great i thought ground sheet. so i started my adventure by >> tring to start a fire .i tried forever i found some semi dry wood rotted >> to >> bits some dead branches but everything was so wet and it was so dark i >> swear >> in a blink of an eye the sky became black as the bowels of hell. leaving >> my >> and my lighter alone. so i finally gave up on the fire. i burned some >> pages >> of my book warming my hands then i made my bed. i opened my bag took off >> my >> soaking shoes slipped in to the bag then put the plastic bag over it. i >> then >> buried my curled up legs and feet and some of my back in leaves and mud as >> much as i could find near my. i pulled the bag up and then although i was >> feeling sick to my stomach and shaking like a belly dancer over drive. i >> made >> myself eat my gorp nuts and choclates coconuts and raisins. i gagged a >> couple >> handfuls down and drank as much water asi could then pulled the bag >> over my >> heaad. right before i covered my face i looked up at the sky laughed a >> little >> that i was sleeping out here and thinking all i need now is for it to >> rain. >> now i do not know about you all but if you have ever thried to sllep in a >> space bag and plastic bag it makes one feel kind of like a carton of jiffy >> pop every movemnet is crinkle crinkle and crunch crunch. but i did slumber >> for a while waking to the sound of ping ping plop plop. yes you guessed >> it it >> had started to rain so i thought quick and pulled out my other plastic bag >> opened it up poked a hole in the bottom corner near the seams and pulled >> it >> over my head placing my mouth through the hole. then i buried my body more >> snuggled down making sure the top bag was over the other bags so water >> would >> run off and not in the bags. sleeping was a impossiblaty. i was so cold >> and i >> wanted to stay aware of my body and i found that by every so often moving >> around (not alot just lighting the candle burning my book or scooping more >> leaves ) made me warmed and made me feel in control of me. it was so cold >> and >> so dark but i knew i would survive and make it out tomorrow. and soon the >> sky >> began to lighten and the rain slacked and i knew morning was almost upon >> me. >> i must have slept a hour or so for when i awoke the sky was a oveercast >> grey >> of morning. so i packed up all my stuff the papers the bags (by the by >> those >> space bags are flimsy my tore half way through the night ) i was left with >> pices wrapping them around what ever was the coldest. so i ate some >> veggies >> and some gorp(yummy breakfast) i knew i had about 6 miles to the station >> and >> all day to find it so i wanted to try to find the trail i lost last night >> first i figured if i could not find it then head east. so i walked back >> sort >> of the way i came and somehow ended up finding the trail and followed it >> back >> to the main sign i took a different trail and low and behold three hours >> later just 24 after i started i was back to my car. i reported in to the >> rangers and they yelled at me i did not tell anyone where i was going. i >> was >> hiking alone and they had no way to get a hold of my bosses. (it was there >> car in the lot) so i earned a bunch of lessons. next time tell rangers i >> am >> alone and where i am going. i went out today and bought silver nylon and >> am >> making my own bag same size better wear. and i am going to practice the >> fire >> thing. so i hope you enjoyed my story and maybe learned never ever go any >> where with out your survial gear you never know what might happen. >> >> ps i do need to say that if i had not taken the survial class i would be >> dead. i would have had on cotton i would not have had any of the clothes i >> had with me or the survial gear. i am also proud of me becaus ei did not >> panic freak or cry i did not worry or afraid. i was calm and found humor >> in >> it. so i hope to talk with you all soon have a great weekend and smile. >> the >> world is a beautiful place. >> wendy aka polite cat at aol.com. >> or as i call myself now wendy the forest queen goddess of the woods. >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> ---------------- >> This message is from the Pacific Crest Trail Mailing List >> [PCT-L] >> To unsubscribe email pct-l-request at saffron.hack.net with a message >> containing >> the word UNSUBSCRIBE in the body. List admin can be reached at >> ryan at inc.net >> >> ============================================================ >> ================== >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> - Prev by Date: *[pct-l] Introduction... >> * >> - Next by Date: *Re: [pct-l] my adventure >> * >> - Prev by thread: *[pct-l] Introduction... >> * >> - Next by thread: *Re: [pct-l] my adventure >> * >> - Index(es): >> - *Date* > > >> - *Thread* >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Pct-L mailing list >> Pct-L at backcountry.net >> To unsubscribe, or change options visit: >> http://mailman.backcountry.net/mailman/listinfo/pct-l >> >> List Archives: >> http://mailman.backcountry.net/pipermail/pct-l/ >> All content is copyrighted by the respective authors. >> Reproduction is prohibited without express permission. >> > > From jalan04 at gmail.com Tue Jan 16 15:57:48 2018 From: jalan04 at gmail.com (Will M) Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2018 13:57:48 -0800 Subject: [pct-l] Stumbled across PCT-L archives going back to 1996 / Here's message #11 http://www.backcountry.net/arch/pct/ In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Ha, I got lost in that same spot in 2004. I think I did some weird extra loop. Thankfully I was doing my shakedown hike for the AT and had all of my gear. I discovered the next day that I ended up camping about 400 yards from where I originally started. I remember having maps for the sky to sea trail EXCEPT the first couple of miles weren't on my map. Jalan Jalan On Mon, Jan 15, 2018 at 4:54 PM, Paint YW wrote: > The format/structure in reading the hiking tale is a bit disconcerting, but > the context and tempo is quite interesting and much appreciated. Kudos to > the author for being willing to express in depth, details- of what turned > out to be a harrowing experience, that contains lessons for survival that > all of us can benefit from, no matter the time or place. > > Don't forget to take a few essentials with you when you are out for > stroll... to get you through the night. > > Been there, done that. Rookie year. Oct., 2012, 2000-2200 hours. JMT, > 10,000' - 11,000', on the way down from Whitney, lost the trail, no tent > and no sleeping bag. 4 pairs of glowing eyes staring at me (big horn sheep) > Later- Brrr. Built a shelter. Glad to see daylight. > > Thanks- > > Paint > > On Mon, Jan 15, 2018 at 3:08 PM, Catherine Middaugh < > catherine.middaugh at gmail.com> wrote: > > > Wow does this bring back memories. I've gotten lost in Big Basin State > > Park more times than I can count. And 1996 was a high rain year. Thanks > for > > the post. > > > > On Mon, Jan 15, 2018 at 7:24 AM, Paint YW > > > wrote: > > > >> ------------------------------ > >> [Date Prev ][ > Date > >> Next ][Thread > >> Prev > >> ][Thread Next > >> ][Date Index > >> ][Thread > Index > >> ][pct-l] > my > >> adventure > >> ------------------------------ > >> > >> - *Subject*: [pct-l] my adventure > >> - *From*: POLITECAT at aol.com > >> - *Date*: Sun, 15 Dec 1996 04:36:52 -0500 > >> > >> ------------------------------ > >> > >> > >> i have a story to share with you all. > >> i learned a important lesson from this and i hope you will to. > >> > >> last weekend i got up early and headed to big basin california planning > >> to do > >> my training hike i thought i would hike the 10.6 mile trail because it > >> was a > >> tough one and good practice. so i loaded up my pack with the usuala > >> things. > >> my nylon pants in case of colder weather. my fleece jacket and my rain > >> jacket. my lunch and snacks. (dried veggies gorp and power bar.) in the > >> bottom of my pack lives my survial bag i use it mainly for weight. and > >> about > >> 3 gallons of water. oh ya my walkman some tapes a hiking book and my > >> camera > >> so i payed for my day parking and hoisted my pack on my back and off i > >> went. > >> they ask you have a tleast 6 hours to hike the trail and i had a little > >> more > >> in case but felt i would only take about 5 hours tops. the sky was an > >> overcast greyish hue. a teasing mist would fall semi often but i was > >> hiking > >> pretty fast and it felt good. > >> well the trail signs were visable and for the first 3 hours i was doing > >> great > >> i was booking. and then it happened. somewhere i lost the trail and > ended > >> up > >> way far from the park headquarters. you see they had had a fire and > trail > >> signs and what not had ben destroyed so i got out my map and compass > >> (from my > >> survival kit) and choose a direction to lead back. it was later than i > was > >> happy about but i was confandant i would make it. so i hiked and climbed > >> and > >> skidded (did i mention it had been raining off and on for a week) so > >> things > >> were soaked and puddles and creeks were everywhere. at some point i met > up > >> with a biker. as he passed i asked him if he knew what trail we were on > >> and > >> how far from the main headquarters. he said wow it is way that way this > is > >> the >>>>>> trail and he gave me some directions to follow so i smiled > >> thanked > >> him and tromped on. almost running . there was only about 1.5 hours of > >> good > >> light left and i was still sure i would be ok and make it back soon. i > had > >> rivers to cross soaking my feet in freezing water and squishing my way > >> onwards. so i reached a big main trail/road and followed the signs there > >> and > >> ganced up at the deepening grey sky. soon i reached a cut off my road > >> ended > >> and broke off without any real trail signs and so i followed the most > >> promentant trail which ended at a crossroads. there was a sign it had > been > >> placed against a tree either knocked down before or burned. i searched > >> for > >> the orginal post marks in the ground so i could confirm the pointers but > >> to > >> no avail so i took the shortest trail or so i thought the arrow pointed > >> straight ahead to a path of sorts it was overgrown and had a lot of > debri > >> on > >> it but because i was racing agaist the clock i just went for it. the > trail > >> was sparatic disapearing and reappearing and yet it seemed well used. i > >> was > >> slightly iffy about it but grey was changing to black if i could find > the > >> trail a clear trail i could follow it even in the dark. but the farther > >> in i > >> got the smaller and less travable the traail became until it just > >> disappeared. by this time i had maybe about half and hour of light so i > >> pulled out the map and saw that there should be a trail above me > >> somewhere. > >> it was longer than i wanted but at this point any trail was needed. so i > >> began climbing around fallen trees through leaves and debri slipping and > >> sliding on the wet leaves. i tried climbing up and when i reached a > point > >> that looked clear i found my way blocked by weeds and bushes rocks and > >> more > >> steep climbs. so i rethought my plan. i heaard a creek and knew the > creek > >> was > >> heading towards the other main path and to the park rangers. so i > changed > >> directions following my compass reading towards the east. i slipped > down a > >> hill scraping my legs pretty bad and then had to climb another steep mud > >> incased mountain my only hold was a razor sharp weed that as i slipped > >> sliced > >> my legs and hands although it did save me from falling. so i crossed a > >> small > >> creek and tried to follow it as well as keep my heading east. by this > >> point > >> it was a light black. and becuase i was under heavy trees even darker > the > >> shawdows had turned to intertwining cover. coating the ground with black > >> . i > >> was fighting my brains need to reach safty and my knowledge i waas > staying > >> somewhere near tonight. as i started off one more time i somehow ended > up > >> in > >> a bog of mud so thick i must have looked like one of those old time > >> comedians > >> swaying left and right with out falling. my shoes would not come out > and i > >> struggled a few precious minutes and then one by one they popped out. so > >> when i reached safe ground i looked for a place to stop and set up a > mini > >> camp. found a grove with good shelter some good lookiing shelter and > >> not to > >> far from where i ended. so in the mornig i could begin where i ended. > >> instead of wandering amlessly in a circle. so i sat down opened my pack > >> (by > >> now i was cold tired hungry and shaking my head at my new adventure. so > i > >> pulled out my nylon pants my fleece jacket and my rain jacket. i put > them > >> on > >> and then opened my survial bag. no flashlight. but a candle two clear > >> plastic > >> bags a space bag and a lighter. i also found some pitch wood my knife > and > >> my > >> metal match. i had also for some strange reason put a water proof pack > >> cover > >> in my pack. hey great i thought ground sheet. so i started my adventure > by > >> tring to start a fire .i tried forever i found some semi dry wood rotted > >> to > >> bits some dead branches but everything was so wet and it was so dark i > >> swear > >> in a blink of an eye the sky became black as the bowels of hell. leaving > >> my > >> and my lighter alone. so i finally gave up on the fire. i burned some > >> pages > >> of my book warming my hands then i made my bed. i opened my bag took off > >> my > >> soaking shoes slipped in to the bag then put the plastic bag over it. i > >> then > >> buried my curled up legs and feet and some of my back in leaves and mud > as > >> much as i could find near my. i pulled the bag up and then although i > was > >> feeling sick to my stomach and shaking like a belly dancer over drive. i > >> made > >> myself eat my gorp nuts and choclates coconuts and raisins. i gagged a > >> couple > >> handfuls down and drank as much water asi could then pulled the bag > >> over my > >> heaad. right before i covered my face i looked up at the sky laughed a > >> little > >> that i was sleeping out here and thinking all i need now is for it to > >> rain. > >> now i do not know about you all but if you have ever thried to sllep in > a > >> space bag and plastic bag it makes one feel kind of like a carton of > jiffy > >> pop every movemnet is crinkle crinkle and crunch crunch. but i did > slumber > >> for a while waking to the sound of ping ping plop plop. yes you guessed > >> it it > >> had started to rain so i thought quick and pulled out my other plastic > bag > >> opened it up poked a hole in the bottom corner near the seams and pulled > >> it > >> over my head placing my mouth through the hole. then i buried my body > more > >> snuggled down making sure the top bag was over the other bags so water > >> would > >> run off and not in the bags. sleeping was a impossiblaty. i was so cold > >> and i > >> wanted to stay aware of my body and i found that by every so often > moving > >> around (not alot just lighting the candle burning my book or scooping > more > >> leaves ) made me warmed and made me feel in control of me. it was so > cold > >> and > >> so dark but i knew i would survive and make it out tomorrow. and soon > the > >> sky > >> began to lighten and the rain slacked and i knew morning was almost upon > >> me. > >> i must have slept a hour or so for when i awoke the sky was a oveercast > >> grey > >> of morning. so i packed up all my stuff the papers the bags (by the by > >> those > >> space bags are flimsy my tore half way through the night ) i was left > with > >> pices wrapping them around what ever was the coldest. so i ate some > >> veggies > >> and some gorp(yummy breakfast) i knew i had about 6 miles to the station > >> and > >> all day to find it so i wanted to try to find the trail i lost last > night > >> first i figured if i could not find it then head east. so i walked back > >> sort > >> of the way i came and somehow ended up finding the trail and followed it > >> back > >> to the main sign i took a different trail and low and behold three hours > >> later just 24 after i started i was back to my car. i reported in to > the > >> rangers and they yelled at me i did not tell anyone where i was going. i > >> was > >> hiking alone and they had no way to get a hold of my bosses. (it was > there > >> car in the lot) so i earned a bunch of lessons. next time tell rangers i > >> am > >> alone and where i am going. i went out today and bought silver nylon and > >> am > >> making my own bag same size better wear. and i am going to practice the > >> fire > >> thing. so i hope you enjoyed my story and maybe learned never ever go > any > >> where with out your survial gear you never know what might happen. > >> > >> ps i do need to say that if i had not taken the survial class i would be > >> dead. i would have had on cotton i would not have had any of the > clothes i > >> had with me or the survial gear. i am also proud of me becaus ei did not > >> panic freak or cry i did not worry or afraid. i was calm and found humor > >> in > >> it. so i hope to talk with you all soon have a great weekend and smile. > >> the > >> world is a beautiful place. > >> wendy aka polite cat at aol.com. > >> or as i call myself now wendy the forest queen goddess of the woods. > >> ------------------------------------------------------------ > >> ---------------- > >> This message is from the Pacific Crest Trail Mailing List > >> [PCT-L] > >> To unsubscribe email pct-l-request at saffron.hack.net with a message > >> containing > >> the word UNSUBSCRIBE in the body. List admin can be reached at > >> ryan at inc.net > >> > >> ============================================================ > >> ================== > >> > >> ------------------------------ > >> > >> - Prev by Date: *[pct-l] Introduction... > >> * > >> - Next by Date: *Re: [pct-l] my adventure > >> * > >> - Prev by thread: *[pct-l] Introduction... > >> * > >> - Next by thread: *Re: [pct-l] my adventure > >> * > >> - Index(es): > >> - *Date* arch/pct/9612/index.html#00011 > >> > > >> - *Thread* > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Pct-L mailing list > >> Pct-L at backcountry.net > >> To unsubscribe, or change options visit: > >> http://mailman.backcountry.net/mailman/listinfo/pct-l > >> > >> List Archives: > >> http://mailman.backcountry.net/pipermail/pct-l/ > >> All content is copyrighted by the respective authors. > >> Reproduction is prohibited without express permission. > >> > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Pct-L mailing list > Pct-L at backcountry.net > To unsubscribe, or change options visit: > http://mailman.backcountry.net/mailman/listinfo/pct-l > > List Archives: > http://mailman.backcountry.net/pipermail/pct-l/ > All content is copyrighted by the respective authors. > Reproduction is prohibited without express permission. > From paintyourwagonhikes at gmail.com Wed Jan 17 10:02:03 2018 From: paintyourwagonhikes at gmail.com (Paint YW) Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2018 09:02:03 -0700 Subject: [pct-l] 2018 Permits available 17 Jan [ TODAY ] In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Good luck everybody! 10:30 am Pacific time, the gates swing wide open. https://www.pcta.org/discover-the-trail/permits/pct-long-distance-permit/ -Paint- From paintyourwagonhikes at gmail.com Thu Jan 18 16:33:02 2018 From: paintyourwagonhikes at gmail.com (Paint YW) Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2018 15:33:02 -0700 Subject: [pct-l] PCT Permit with addendums In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The 2018 PCT Permit hit the inbox today, and with it came the usual addendums... LNT Principles, and Permit Holder Education & Information. I would like to say that the information included, is the best to date, and visually quite pleasing. Well done PCTA, well done indeed. -Paint- From 4140lcl at gmail.com Fri Jan 19 10:22:19 2018 From: 4140lcl at gmail.com (Tim Crum) Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2018 08:22:19 -0800 Subject: [pct-l] Stove less In-Reply-To: <160e5dfa488-1720-57f52@webjas-vac134.srv.aolmail.net> References: <160e5dfa488-1720-57f52@webjas-vac134.srv.aolmail.net> Message-ID: Here is a new option for going stoveless, but still having hot meals. Someone has improved on the concept of the MRE heater system to make a portable silicon food heating system (Heater and reusable dish all in one) https://newatlas.com/yabul-cook-flameless-camping-cooker/53004/ Tim Crum On Thu, Jan 11, 2018 at 7:38 AM, Gary Schenk wrote: > > -----Original Message----- > From: Brick Robbins > > I do not see how stove usage is evidence that "PCT hikers cannot be > trusted with fire" and I still don't see how fire rings have anything > to do with stoves. > > Also, as a resident of Southern California, who frequents the PCT year > round, not just the thru-hiker season, I can assure you that the vast > majority of the use the trail gets is not from thru-hikers, but from > weekenders, hunters and day hikers. The proximity of Angeles NF to Los > Angeles gives easy access city folks who have no clue about things > like Leave No Trace, Fire Safety or even cleaning up their own > garbage. > > The weekend after the opening of Deer Season here in San Diego > country, much of the area around the PCT is littered with fire rings, > spent shell casing, and empty beer cans. I avoid the backcountry on > Opening Day. A person just can't wear enough orange to feel > comfortable. > > While I support education, and "getting the word out," it will require > outreach to the non-hiking population, not demeaning messages telling > thru hikers that they can't be trusted with fire. > > IMHO. > ************************************************************ > *********************** > > Brick, you are right, of course. But a lot of the fire rings I find are > where PCTers camp. Most hunters don't even get out of their trucks! :-) > > There was a fellow on the trail a few years ago, forget his name, who was > posting a journal. I removed a couple of his fire rings. All illegal. Even > after putting a post on his journal guestbook suggesting that the fires > were not cool, he kept on. > > There's a series of youtubes posted by a woman who thruhiked last year. I > didn't view all of them, yet saw at least three illegal fires in the > Angeles and Kings Canyon. Not to mention setting her tent up next to a > small stream in the southern sections trampling riparian habitat. And she > was an "expert." > > Most hikers can be trusted with fire, I agree, but as the trail population > increases so does the number of those who can't. > > Which of course has nothing to do with a stove ban. > > Gary > > > _______________________________________________ > Pct-L mailing list > Pct-L at backcountry.net > To unsubscribe, or change options visit: > http://mailman.backcountry.net/mailman/listinfo/pct-l > > List Archives: > http://mailman.backcountry.net/pipermail/pct-l/ > All content is copyrighted by the respective authors. > Reproduction is prohibited without express permission. > From douglastow at gmail.com Fri Jan 19 19:09:50 2018 From: douglastow at gmail.com (Douglas Tow) Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2018 17:09:50 -0800 Subject: [pct-l] Bear canisters to lend Message-ID: I have two large bear canisters, Bearvault model BV500 to lend to 2018 thru hikers. Each year, I get a large volume of responses, and it takes a day or two to sort them out, so I cannot guarantee that any particular request can be granted. If you are interested, email me direct at douglastow at gmail.com. Unfortunately, I cannot see any responses you may make on the pct-l. Chipmunk (Doug Tow) From hikermiker at yahoo.com Sat Jan 20 06:09:46 2018 From: hikermiker at yahoo.com (Mike Cunningham) Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2018 12:09:46 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [pct-l] Stove less References: <781494044.1938281.1516450186130.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <781494044.1938281.1516450186130@mail.yahoo.com> Hmmm, has anyone ever tried to heat food with those chemical hand warmers? -------------------------------------------- On Fri, 1/19/18, Tim Crum <4140lcl at gmail.com> wrote: Subject: Re: [pct-l] Stove less To: "Gary Schenk" Cc: pct-l at backcountry.net Date: Friday, January 19, 2018, 11:22 AM Here is a new option for going stoveless, but still having hot meals. Someone has improved on the concept of the MRE heater system to make a portable silicon food heating system (Heater and reusable dish all in one) https://newatlas.com/yabul-cook-flameless-camping-cooker/53004/ Tim Crum On Thu, Jan 11, 2018 at 7:38 AM, Gary Schenk wrote: > >? -----Original Message----- > From: Brick Robbins > > I do not see how stove usage is evidence that "PCT hikers cannot be > trusted with fire" and I still don't see how fire rings have anything > to do with stoves. > > Also, as a resident of Southern California, who frequents the PCT year > round, not just the thru-hiker season, I can assure you that the vast > majority of the use the trail gets is not from thru-hikers, but from > weekenders, hunters and day hikers. The proximity of Angeles NF to Los > Angeles gives easy access city folks who have no clue about things > like Leave No Trace, Fire Safety or even cleaning up their own > garbage. > > The weekend after the opening of Deer Season here in San Diego > country, much of the area around the PCT is littered with fire rings, > spent shell casing, and empty beer cans. I avoid the backcountry on > Opening Day. A person just can't wear enough orange to feel > comfortable. > > While I support education, and "getting the word out," it will require > outreach to the non-hiking population, not demeaning messages telling > thru hikers that they can't be trusted with fire. > > IMHO. > ************************************************************ > *********************** > > Brick, you are right, of course. But a lot of the fire rings I find are > where PCTers camp. Most hunters don't even get out of their trucks! :-) > > There was a fellow on the trail a few years ago, forget his name, who was > posting a journal. I removed a couple of his fire rings. All illegal. Even > after putting a post on his journal guestbook suggesting that the fires > were not cool, he kept on. > > There's a series of youtubes posted by a woman who thruhiked last year. I > didn't view all of them, yet saw at least three illegal fires in the > Angeles and Kings Canyon. Not to mention setting her tent up next to a > small stream in the southern sections trampling riparian habitat. And she > was an "expert." > > Most hikers can be trusted with fire, I agree, but as the trail population > increases so does the number of those who can't. > > Which of course has nothing to do with a stove ban. > > Gary > > > _______________________________________________ > Pct-L mailing list > Pct-L at backcountry.net > To unsubscribe, or change options visit: > http://mailman.backcountry.net/mailman/listinfo/pct-l > > List Archives: > http://mailman.backcountry.net/pipermail/pct-l/ > All content is copyrighted by the respective authors. > Reproduction is prohibited without express permission. > _______________________________________________ Pct-L mailing list Pct-L at backcountry.net To unsubscribe, or change options visit: http://mailman.backcountry.net/mailman/listinfo/pct-l List Archives: http://mailman.backcountry.net/pipermail/pct-l/ All content is copyrighted by the respective authors. Reproduction is prohibited without express permission. From tokencivilian at yahoo.com Mon Jan 22 16:11:20 2018 From: tokencivilian at yahoo.com (Barry Teschlog) Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2018 22:11:20 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [pct-l] SOBO References: <203012753.2143742.1516659080563.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <203012753.2143742.1516659080563@mail.yahoo.com> SOBO's may be crying in their beer just a bit this year. First off, snow up in the very north Cascades is above average, although not terribly so, as of this writing.? The Harts Pass Snotel sensor is currently at 124% of nominal for the date.? Rainy Pass is 111%, Lyman Lake (proxy for Glacier Peak) is 92%, Stevens Pass is 105%. Further south, just south of Snoqualmie Pass, Olallie Meadows is at 85% while Stampede Pass is at only 69%. White Pass on Highway 12 is at 74%. As one moves down into Oregon, sensors indicate substantially below average snow packs. The other factor that might cause headaches is the ongoing fire closures, specifically the Norse Peak and Columbia River Gorge closures. SOBO's can expect that there will have been little time to clear / repair the Norse Peak fire area between the snow melting and your arrival.? Add to that the area may still be closed.? Be prepared to find a ride around the current closure area if necessary - depart the trail at either Snoqualmie Pass or at Government Meadows and make your way to either Chinook or White Pass. The Gorge area is more problematic.? Data from the USFS can be found at:https://www.fs.usda.gov/detail/crgnsa/news-events/?cid=FSEPRD569597andhttps://www.fs.usda.gov/detail/crgnsa/fire/?cid=fseprd569574 From rickrparker at icloud.com Mon Jan 22 18:16:30 2018 From: rickrparker at icloud.com (Rick Parker) Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2018 18:16:30 -0600 Subject: [pct-l] SOBO Message-ID: <1AF965CA-817B-4C85-887D-902A35F26704@icloud.com> This USDA website will not be updated during a lapse in federal funding. Content on this website will not be current or maintained until funding issues have been resolved. However, if there is information that affects security, life, and property, this website will continue to update that information during a funding lapse. LOL From paintyourwagonhikes at gmail.com Tue Jan 23 22:32:18 2018 From: paintyourwagonhikes at gmail.com (Paint YW) Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2018 21:32:18 -0700 Subject: [pct-l] SOBO In-Reply-To: <203012753.2143742.1516659080563@mail.yahoo.com> References: <203012753.2143742.1516659080563.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <203012753.2143742.1516659080563@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: What's up campers? Barry! May I call you Barry? THAT- was an excellent field condition report. Thank you. SOMEDAY, I'm going to hike that treacherous section, in spite of the weather/existing conditions. Thinking... the next leap year. Honest Abe- hiked it SOBO in an absolutely arid year... 2015. Loves me some dormant Cascades volcanoes. Alright everybody- nothing to see here. Back to bed, or to your spellbinding novels. Visualize me fixing a drink. Lol. Peace. Out. Paint. On Jan 22, 2018 3:11 PM, "Barry Teschlog" wrote: > SOBO's may be crying in their beer just a bit this year. > First off, snow up in the very north Cascades is above average, although > not terribly so, as of this writing. The Harts Pass Snotel sensor is > currently at 124% of nominal for the date. Rainy Pass is 111%, Lyman Lake > (proxy for Glacier Peak) is 92%, Stevens Pass is 105%. > Further south, just south of Snoqualmie Pass, Olallie Meadows is at 85% > while Stampede Pass is at only 69%. > White Pass on Highway 12 is at 74%. > As one moves down into Oregon, sensors indicate substantially below > average snow packs. > The other factor that might cause headaches is the ongoing fire closures, > specifically the Norse Peak and Columbia River Gorge closures. > SOBO's can expect that there will have been little time to clear / repair > the Norse Peak fire area between the snow melting and your arrival. Add to > that the area may still be closed. Be prepared to find a ride around the > current closure area if necessary - depart the trail at either Snoqualmie > Pass or at Government Meadows and make your way to either Chinook or White > Pass. > The Gorge area is more problematic. > Data from the USFS can be found at:https://www.fs.usda.gov/ > detail/crgnsa/news-events/?cid=FSEPRD569597andhttps:// > www.fs.usda.gov/detail/crgnsa/fire/?cid=fseprd569574 > > > _______________________________________________ > Pct-L mailing list > Pct-L at backcountry.net > To unsubscribe, or change options visit: > http://mailman.backcountry.net/mailman/listinfo/pct-l > > List Archives: > http://mailman.backcountry.net/pipermail/pct-l/ > All content is copyrighted by the respective authors. > Reproduction is prohibited without express permission. From paintyourwagonhikes at gmail.com Tue Jan 23 22:42:38 2018 From: paintyourwagonhikes at gmail.com (Paint YW) Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2018 21:42:38 -0700 Subject: [pct-l] SOBO In-Reply-To: <1AF965CA-817B-4C85-887D-902A35F26704@icloud.com> References: <1AF965CA-817B-4C85-887D-902A35F26704@icloud.com> Message-ID: Rick! It took me a few reads of your reply to Barry... to actually see it, which - was - an - Lol. Then... I got it! HILARIOUS! Love ya' man. Paint. On Jan 22, 2018 5:17 PM, "Rick Parker" wrote: > This USDA website will not be updated during a lapse in federal funding. > Content on this website will not be current or maintained until funding > issues have been resolved. However, if there is information that affects > security, life, and property, this website will continue to update that > information during a funding lapse. > > LOL > _______________________________________________ > Pct-L mailing list > Pct-L at backcountry.net > To unsubscribe, or change options visit: > http://mailman.backcountry.net/mailman/listinfo/pct-l > > List Archives: > http://mailman.backcountry.net/pipermail/pct-l/ > All content is copyrighted by the respective authors. > Reproduction is prohibited without express permission. > From jimbravo2 at gmail.com Wed Jan 24 17:30:36 2018 From: jimbravo2 at gmail.com (Jim Bravo) Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2018 15:30:36 -0800 Subject: [pct-l] SOBO Message-ID: Paint YW wrote: *"Visualize me fixing a drink. Lol."----------------------------------* Now THAT is not hard to imagine!!! Bravo From ned at mountaineducation.org Wed Jan 31 15:46:39 2018 From: ned at mountaineducation.org (ned at mountaineducation.org) Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2018 13:46:39 -0800 Subject: [pct-l] Winter schedule, Mountain Education Message-ID: <058201d39adc$fa361f90$eea25eb0$@mountaineducation.org> With the arrival of snow, our favorite hiking places, our personal retreats for solace, answers, and inspiration, suddenly change and we must spend a little more time considering our safety there. How can I still enjoy its majesty, yet stay warm and dry? What's under my snowshoes? How do I maintain my balance so I don't fall? Why do my eyes burn so? What about avalanches? Without a trail, won't I get lost? For the most part, you can still enter in and find what you seek, just know before you go. Mountain Education has published its list of wilderness snow safety courses for the next 10 weeks, every weekend to April 8th. http://mountaineducation.org/ https://www.facebook.com/mountaineducation/ The advent of winter need not stay your visit into wilderness glory, rather let it breathe new life into your spirit! Take a class. Stay safe. Smile and feel its touch! Ned Tibbits, Director Mountain Education, Inc. ned at mountaineducation.org From paintyourwagonhikes at gmail.com Wed Jan 31 21:58:54 2018 From: paintyourwagonhikes at gmail.com (Paint YW) Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2018 20:58:54 -0700 Subject: [pct-l] PCTA Strategic Plan In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: https://www.pcta.org/2018/pcta-releases-strategic-plan-2018-2021-56007/ The PCT is undergoing dramatic growing pains. That's the nature of the beast. This article is an opening outreach effort, to get the community involved. May I ask the readers to take a proverbial deep breath, and join in to contribute solutions that will preserve this golden treasure for future generations to come. Suggestion: move metal bear boxes away from the trail, at least the required distance from the trail that is recommended by the LNT creed- 200 feet. Not kidding... some boxes are right there, along the trail. Push em' back! Push em' back! Way back! Otherwise... stating the obvious- hikers are going to camp right next to the bear boxes, which are right next to the trail. Can I get an Amen? Thank you! Paint From paintyourwagonhikes at gmail.com Wed Jan 31 22:29:20 2018 From: paintyourwagonhikes at gmail.com (Paint YW) Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2018 21:29:20 -0700 Subject: [pct-l] PCTA Strategic Plan In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: In reviewing my post, it appears that I indicated that food storage must be 200 feet from the trail. In hindsight, 100 feet is sufficient, and if incorrect, PLEASE correct me. Thanks. PS: For the record- dropping a deuce requires 200' in separation from water, the trail, or a campsite. Honk if you're MELLOW! Paint From paintyourwagonhikes at gmail.com Wed Jan 31 22:41:48 2018 From: paintyourwagonhikes at gmail.com (Paint YW) Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2018 21:41:48 -0700 Subject: [pct-l] PCTA Strategic Plan In-Reply-To: <5GXx1x00G0CyNXY01GXxz0@charter.net> References: <5GXx1x00G0CyNXY01GXxz0@charter.net> Message-ID: While on the soap box- has the bear box that was stored under the Woods Creek suspension bridge, for what seemed like multiple years, ever been located and assembled? Thanks. Paint. PS I think that spot is between Glen Pass and Pinchot Pass. On Jan 31, 2018 9:31 PM, wrote: > I agree, keep bear boxes off the trail just post signs to them. Also put > them under trees. Why for God's sake are they left fully exposed to the > sun? > > ----------------------------------------- > From: "Paint YW" > To: > Cc: > Sent: 01-Feb-2018 03:58:57 +0000 > Subject: [pct-l] PCTA Strategic Plan > > https://www.pcta.org/2018/pcta-releases-strategic-plan-2018-2021-56007/ > /> > The PCT is undergoing dramatic growing pains. That's the nature of the > beast. This article is an opening outreach effort, to get the community > involved. May I ask the readers to take a proverbial deep breath, and join > in to contribute solutions that will preserve this golden treasure for > future generations to come. > > Suggestion: move metal bear boxes away from the trail, at least the > required distance from the trail that is recommended by the LNT creed- 200 > feet. > > Not kidding... some boxes are right there, along the trail. Push em' back! > Push em' back! Way back! > > Otherwise... stating the obvious- hikers are going to camp right next to > the bear boxes, which are right next to the trail. > > Can I get an Amen? > > Thank you! > > Paint > _______________________________________________ > Pct-L mailing list > Pct-L at backcountry.net > To unsubscribe, or change options visit: > > > http://mailman.backcountry.net/mailman/listinfo/pct-l > /> > List Archives: > > http://mailman.backcountry.net/pipermail/pct-l/ > /> All content is copyrighted by the respective authors. > Reproduction is prohibited without express permission. > >