From reinholdmetzger at cox.net  Thu Sep  1 12:15:12 2016
From: reinholdmetzger at cox.net (Reinhold Metzger)
Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2016 10:15:12 -0700
Subject: [pct-l] New PCT Speed Record
Message-ID: <f99348d7-c45b-115a-0fd6-26741e87e6fd@cox.net>

Hi gang,

Trouble is back in town.....the girls are dancing in the streets the 
guys are gnashing

their teeth.

Like some of you PCT fanatics probably already know, a 26 year old 
Belgian Dentist

marathon runner by the name Karel Sabbe, who in the last 2 years has run 
close to

8,000 KM in 31 countries,  set a new PCT speed record of 52 days, 8 hrs, 
25 minutes.

It should be noted that Karel did it as a marathon runner, with a 
support team, VS

traditional backpacking where you carry all your gear and food, etc.

Hats of to Karel, the new PCT sped record holder and his accomplishment.

All records, sooner or later get broken.

However, in my book, my buddy Scott Williamson still is, and probably 
always will be

the undeniable, the unquestionable, and indisputable "King of the PCT" 
and his PCT

accomplishments probably will never be equaled.

"LONG LIVE THE KING" and may you have many offsprings to carry on your 
legacy.

And also long live Switchback, the undeniable, the unquestionable, and 
indisputable

"Rascal" of the PCT...,aka Switchback the trail pirate, who's mischief 
of raiding and

plundering innocent hikers also will never be equaled.

I will not get into what I am famous for.

You can ask...YOGI...she knows.

JMT Reinhold




---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus


From stenostar58 at gmail.com  Thu Sep  1 21:45:53 2016
From: stenostar58 at gmail.com (Kerry Calvert)
Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2016 19:45:53 -0700
Subject: [pct-l] Section J
Message-ID: <CAMxP41Lnvc6=f40O5ey3cRp-bGeKaGNS8fbPvGuPOY=bsww5WA@mail.gmail.com>

Greetings, I am looking for input as to what the water sources are for this
Section from Sonora pass to Echo Lake.  I have read on blogs that water is
suspect in this section and there are lots of cows.  The map show lots of
streams and a lakes.  Is water really a problem this time of year, early
September?.  As well, any good tips for this section are appreciated.  I
know Echo Lake will be closed after Labor Day.  Any place close by there if
one doesn't want to go into South Lake Tahoe.  Thanks!

From 4140lcl at gmail.com  Fri Sep  2 11:10:22 2016
From: 4140lcl at gmail.com (Tim Crum)
Date: Fri, 2 Sep 2016 09:10:22 -0700
Subject: [pct-l] New PCT Speed Record
In-Reply-To: <f99348d7-c45b-115a-0fd6-26741e87e6fd@cox.net>
References: <f99348d7-c45b-115a-0fd6-26741e87e6fd@cox.net>
Message-ID: <CAKXV64pWU5n+QgaSKYhVemeAvYVw=Xetm055eV70=pGdMB6usQ@mail.gmail.com>

Is anybody famous for just poking along the trail and enjoying it? Not
worrying about how fast they can do the trip, how many miles they can do in
one day, how little weight they can carry, etc.?
It's a camping trip. Enjoy the walk!

On Thu, Sep 1, 2016 at 10:15 AM, Reinhold Metzger <reinholdmetzger at cox.net>
wrote:

> Hi gang,
>
> Trouble is back in town.....the girls are dancing in the streets the guys
> are gnashing
>
> their teeth.
>
> Like some of you PCT fanatics probably already know, a 26 year old Belgian
> Dentist
>
> marathon runner by the name Karel Sabbe, who in the last 2 years has run
> close to
>
> 8,000 KM in 31 countries,  set a new PCT speed record of 52 days, 8 hrs,
> 25 minutes.
>
> It should be noted that Karel did it as a marathon runner, with a support
> team, VS
>
> traditional backpacking where you carry all your gear and food, etc.
>
> Hats of to Karel, the new PCT sped record holder and his accomplishment.
>
> All records, sooner or later get broken.
>
> However, in my book, my buddy Scott Williamson still is, and probably
> always will be
>
> the undeniable, the unquestionable, and indisputable "King of the PCT" and
> his PCT
>
> accomplishments probably will never be equaled.
>
> "LONG LIVE THE KING" and may you have many offsprings to carry on your
> legacy.
>
> And also long live Switchback, the undeniable, the unquestionable, and
> indisputable
>
> "Rascal" of the PCT...,aka Switchback the trail pirate, who's mischief of
> raiding and
>
> plundering innocent hikers also will never be equaled.
>
> I will not get into what I am famous for.
>
> You can ask...YOGI...she knows.
>
> JMT Reinhold
>
>
>
>
> ---
> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
> https://www.avast.com/antivirus
>
> _______________________________________________
> Pct-L mailing list
> Pct-L at backcountry.net
> To unsubscribe, or change options visit:
> http://mailman.backcountry.net/mailman/listinfo/pct-l
>
> List Archives:
> http://mailman.backcountry.net/pipermail/pct-l/
> All content is copyrighted by the respective authors.
> Reproduction is prohibited without express permission.
>

From marmotwestvanc at hotmail.com  Fri Sep  2 11:36:02 2016
From: marmotwestvanc at hotmail.com (marmot marmot)
Date: Fri, 2 Sep 2016 16:36:02 +0000
Subject: [pct-l] New PCT Speed Record
In-Reply-To: <CAKXV64pWU5n+QgaSKYhVemeAvYVw=Xetm055eV70=pGdMB6usQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <f99348d7-c45b-115a-0fd6-26741e87e6fd@cox.net>,
 <CAKXV64pWU5n+QgaSKYhVemeAvYVw=Xetm055eV70=pGdMB6usQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CY1PR20MB0265144A110F46C5BC5E3164C8E50@CY1PR20MB0265.namprd20.prod.outlook.com>

Supposedly there is a record on each trail for the longest time out there. I know a guy who claims to have spent 8 1/2 months on the CDT. The speed records have a personal value. Mostly no one else cares. It still comes down to, are they a nice person who hasn't harmed the trail or the trail experience? 
Those people who have maintained that ethic hold everyone's respect no matter what speed they move. 
Marmot

Sent from my iPhone

> On Sep 2, 2016, at 12:10 PM, Tim Crum <4140lcl at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Is anybody famous for just poking along the trail and enjoying it? Not
> worrying about how fast they can do the trip, how many miles they can do in
> one day, how little weight they can carry, etc.?
> It's a camping trip. Enjoy the walk!
> 
> On Thu, Sep 1, 2016 at 10:15 AM, Reinhold Metzger <reinholdmetzger at cox.net>
> wrote:
> 
>> Hi gang,
>> 
>> Trouble is back in town.....the girls are dancing in the streets the guys
>> are gnashing
>> 
>> their teeth.
>> 
>> Like some of you PCT fanatics probably already know, a 26 year old Belgian
>> Dentist
>> 
>> marathon runner by the name Karel Sabbe, who in the last 2 years has run
>> close to
>> 
>> 8,000 KM in 31 countries,  set a new PCT speed record of 52 days, 8 hrs,
>> 25 minutes.
>> 
>> It should be noted that Karel did it as a marathon runner, with a support
>> team, VS
>> 
>> traditional backpacking where you carry all your gear and food, etc.
>> 
>> Hats of to Karel, the new PCT sped record holder and his accomplishment.
>> 
>> All records, sooner or later get broken.
>> 
>> However, in my book, my buddy Scott Williamson still is, and probably
>> always will be
>> 
>> the undeniable, the unquestionable, and indisputable "King of the PCT" and
>> his PCT
>> 
>> accomplishments probably will never be equaled.
>> 
>> "LONG LIVE THE KING" and may you have many offsprings to carry on your
>> legacy.
>> 
>> And also long live Switchback, the undeniable, the unquestionable, and
>> indisputable
>> 
>> "Rascal" of the PCT...,aka Switchback the trail pirate, who's mischief of
>> raiding and
>> 
>> plundering innocent hikers also will never be equaled.
>> 
>> I will not get into what I am famous for.
>> 
>> You can ask...YOGI...she knows.
>> 
>> JMT Reinhold
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> ---
>> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
>> https://www.avast.com/antivirus
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> Pct-L mailing list
>> Pct-L at backcountry.net
>> To unsubscribe, or change options visit:
>> http://mailman.backcountry.net/mailman/listinfo/pct-l
>> 
>> List Archives:
>> http://mailman.backcountry.net/pipermail/pct-l/
>> All content is copyrighted by the respective authors.
>> Reproduction is prohibited without express permission.
> _______________________________________________
> Pct-L mailing list
> Pct-L at backcountry.net
> To unsubscribe, or change options visit:
> http://mailman.backcountry.net/mailman/listinfo/pct-l
> 
> List Archives:
> http://mailman.backcountry.net/pipermail/pct-l/
> All content is copyrighted by the respective authors.
> Reproduction is prohibited without express permission.

From sebastian.opalko at gmail.com  Fri Sep  2 11:34:10 2016
From: sebastian.opalko at gmail.com (sebastian.opalko at gmail.com)
Date: Fri, 02 Sep 2016 12:34:10 -0400
Subject: [pct-l] New PCT Speed Record
Message-ID: <720evd95jp6qpouonfev45im.1472834050016@email.lge.com>

HYOH
------ Original message------From: Tim Crum<4140lcl at gmail.com>Date: Fri, Sep 2, 2016 12:10 PMTo: Reinhold Metzger;Cc: PCT;Hiker97 at aol.com;Subject:Re: [pct-l] New PCT Speed Record
Is anybody famous for just poking along the trail and enjoying it? Notworrying about how fast they can do the trip, how many miles they can do inone day, how little weight they can carry, etc.?It's a camping trip. Enjoy the walk!On Thu, Sep 1, 2016 at 10:15 AM, Reinhold Metzger wrote:> Hi gang,>> Trouble is back in town.....the girls are dancing in the streets the guys> are gnashing>> their teeth.>> Like some of you PCT fanatics probably already know, a 26 year old Belgian> Dentist>> marathon runner by the name Karel Sabbe, who in the last 2 years has run> close to>> 8,000 KM in 31 countries,  set a new PCT speed record of 52 days, 8 hrs,> 25 minutes.>> It should be noted that Karel did it as a marathon runner, with a support> team, VS>> traditional backpacking where you carry all your gear and food, etc.>> Hats of to Karel, the new PCT sped record holder and his accomplishment.>> All records, sooner or later get broken.>> However, in my book, my buddy Scott Williamson still is, and probably> always will be>> the undeniable, the unquestionable, and indisputable "King of the PCT" and> his PCT>> accomplishments probably will never be equaled.>> "LONG LIVE THE KING" and may you have many offsprings to carry on your> legacy.>> And also long live Switchback, the undeniable, the unquestionable, and> indisputable>> "Rascal" of the PCT...,aka Switchback the trail pirate, who's mischief of> raiding and>> plundering innocent hikers also will never be equaled.>> I will not get into what I am famous for.>> You can ask...YOGI...she knows.>> JMT Reinhold>>>>> ---> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.> https://www.avast.com/antivirus>> _______________________________________________> Pct-L mailing list> Pct-L at backcountry.net> To unsubscribe, or change options visit:> http://mailman.backcountry.net/mailman/listinfo/pct-l>> List Archives:> http://mailman.backcountry.net/pipermail/pct-l/> All content is copyrighted by the respective authors.> Reproduction is prohibited without express permission.>_______________________________________________Pct-L mailing listPct-L at backcountry.netTo unsubscribe, or change options visit:http://mailman.backcountry.net/mailman/listinfo/pct-lList Archives:http://mailman.backcountry.net/pipermail/pct-l/All content is copyrighted by the respective authors.Reproduction is prohibited without express permission.

From reinholdmetzger at cox.net  Sun Sep  4 17:34:23 2016
From: reinholdmetzger at cox.net (Reinhold Metzger)
Date: Sun, 4 Sep 2016 15:34:23 -0700
Subject: [pct-l] Fwd: Re:  New PCT Speed Record
In-Reply-To: <CAKXV64pWU5n+QgaSKYhVemeAvYVw=Xetm055eV70=pGdMB6usQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAKXV64pWU5n+QgaSKYhVemeAvYVw=Xetm055eV70=pGdMB6usQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <646b4cb3-1c85-1c4d-bf3b-b6b82558e718@cox.net>

Yes Sebastian......HYOH!!!!!

There are "Turtles" and there are "Rabbits".

Turtles will always criticize the rabbits for going to fast and not
sniffing the flowers along the way and the rabbits will always
criticize the turtles for slowly lumbering down the trail getting
to enjoy only one half the wilderness, in a particular time frame,
compared to rabbits.

Who is to say that turtles, lumbering down the trail enjoy their
journey more than rabbits, skip hopping down the trail?

I say....let everyone hike their own merry way and enjoy their
journey their own special way.

I first set foot on the JMT in the summer of 1968 and have since
thru-hiked it many times with my friends, my wife, the Boy
Scouts or on my own.

However, the ones that I seem to remember the best, and I am
the most fond off, are my JMT speed hikes.
There is something to be said about challenging yourself by
setting extremely high goals and then pushing your body to the
limit to achieve those goals.
Besides,...the aches and the pains will soon be forgotten,...but
the memories,....aaahhh,....the MEMORIES,....they will last a
lifetime.

I have been a rabbit and a turtle, enjoyed my journeys which
ever way and came to realize there is no absolute correct way.
Whether you hike like a turtle or a rabbit is usually a function
of what you want out of your hike and your physical condition
and whichever way makes you "happy" is the "correct" way
for "YOU".

JMT Reinhold
Your happy trail companion skipping down the trail whichever way.


Sebastian wrote....HYOH
.......................................
Tim wrote:
Is anybody famous for just poking along the trail and enjoying it?
Not worrying about how fast they can do the trip, how many
miles they can do in one day, how little weight they can carry, etc.?
It's a camping trip. Enjoy the walk!
.......................................
Reinhold wrote:

Hi gang,
Trouble is back in town.....the girls are dancing in the streets
the guys are gnashing their teeth.

Like some of you PCT fanatics probably already know, a 26 year
old Belgian Dentist marathon runner by the name Karel Sabbe,
who in the last 2 years has run close to 8,000 KM in 31 countries,
set a new PCT speed record of 52 days, 8 hrs, 25 minutes.
It should be noted that Karel did it as a marathon runner, with a
support team, VS traditional backpacking where you carry all your
gear and food, etc.

Hats of to Karel, the new PCT sped record holder and his
accomplishment.

All records, sooner or later get broken.

However, in my book, my buddy Scott Williamson still is, and
probably always will be the undeniable, the unquestionable, and
indisputable "King of the PCT" and his PCT accomplishments
probably will never be equaled.

"LONG LIVE THE KING" and may you have many offsprings to
carry on his legacy.

And also long live Switchback, the undeniable, the unquestionable,
and indisputable"Rascal" of the PCT...aka Switchback the trail
pirate, who's mischief of raiding and plundering innocent hikers
also will never be equaled.

I will not get into what I am famous for.

You can ask...YOGI...she knows.

JMT Reinhold



---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus

From 4140lcl at gmail.com  Sun Sep  4 20:00:02 2016
From: 4140lcl at gmail.com (Tim Crum)
Date: Sun, 4 Sep 2016 18:00:02 -0700
Subject: [pct-l] Fwd: Re: New PCT Speed Record
In-Reply-To: <646b4cb3-1c85-1c4d-bf3b-b6b82558e718@cox.net>
References: <CAKXV64pWU5n+QgaSKYhVemeAvYVw=Xetm055eV70=pGdMB6usQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <646b4cb3-1c85-1c4d-bf3b-b6b82558e718@cox.net>
Message-ID: <CAKXV64og8ReY-XzgaX5gLuf83Dv34bpiKykS_AKEmUi9=A6xnA@mail.gmail.com>

I agree HYOH (as juvenile a response as it is that is more common to the
Facebook PCT pages). I think though that it could be expanded to HYOH-BKITY
(But Keep It To Yourself).
If you want to test your skills, push your limits, or impress yourself with
things like how fast you can hike in a day, complete a trail, or how little
or much weight you can carry, have a day then, but the bottom line is it is
your goal and it doesn't really need to be shared on a site like this that
is meant for the sharing of trail information, gear information, posting
and answering questions, etc.
There are plenty of sites and social media pages for the listing of records
and personal accomplishments (and other forms of
chest thumping, back patting, bragging, and horn blowing).

On Sun, Sep 4, 2016 at 3:34 PM, Reinhold Metzger <reinholdmetzger at cox.net>
wrote:

> Yes Sebastian......HYOH!!!!!
>
> There are "Turtles" and there are "Rabbits".
>
> Turtles will always criticize the rabbits for going to fast and not
> sniffing the flowers along the way and the rabbits will always
> criticize the turtles for slowly lumbering down the trail getting
> to enjoy only one half the wilderness, in a particular time frame,
> compared to rabbits.
>
> Who is to say that turtles, lumbering down the trail enjoy their
> journey more than rabbits, skip hopping down the trail?
>
> I say....let everyone hike their own merry way and enjoy their
> journey their own special way.
>
> I first set foot on the JMT in the summer of 1968 and have since
> thru-hiked it many times with my friends, my wife, the Boy
> Scouts or on my own.
>
> However, the ones that I seem to remember the best, and I am
> the most fond off, are my JMT speed hikes.
> There is something to be said about challenging yourself by
> setting extremely high goals and then pushing your body to the
> limit to achieve those goals.
> Besides,...the aches and the pains will soon be forgotten,...but
> the memories,....aaahhh,....the MEMORIES,....they will last a
> lifetime.
>
> I have been a rabbit and a turtle, enjoyed my journeys which
> ever way and came to realize there is no absolute correct way.
> Whether you hike like a turtle or a rabbit is usually a function
> of what you want out of your hike and your physical condition
> and whichever way makes you "happy" is the "correct" way
> for "YOU".
>
> JMT Reinhold
> Your happy trail companion skipping down the trail whichever way.
>
>
> Sebastian wrote....HYOH
> .......................................
> Tim wrote:
> Is anybody famous for just poking along the trail and enjoying it?
> Not worrying about how fast they can do the trip, how many
> miles they can do in one day, how little weight they can carry, etc.?
> It's a camping trip. Enjoy the walk!
> .......................................
> Reinhold wrote:
>
> Hi gang,
> Trouble is back in town.....the girls are dancing in the streets
> the guys are gnashing their teeth.
>
> Like some of you PCT fanatics probably already know, a 26 year
> old Belgian Dentist marathon runner by the name Karel Sabbe,
> who in the last 2 years has run close to 8,000 KM in 31 countries,
> set a new PCT speed record of 52 days, 8 hrs, 25 minutes.
> It should be noted that Karel did it as a marathon runner, with a
> support team, VS traditional backpacking where you carry all your
> gear and food, etc.
>
> Hats of to Karel, the new PCT sped record holder and his
> accomplishment.
>
> All records, sooner or later get broken.
>
> However, in my book, my buddy Scott Williamson still is, and
> probably always will be the undeniable, the unquestionable, and
> indisputable "King of the PCT" and his PCT accomplishments
> probably will never be equaled.
>
> "LONG LIVE THE KING" and may you have many offsprings to
> carry on his legacy.
>
> And also long live Switchback, the undeniable, the unquestionable,
> and indisputable"Rascal" of the PCT...aka Switchback the trail
> pirate, who's mischief of raiding and plundering innocent hikers
> also will never be equaled.
>
> I will not get into what I am famous for.
>
> You can ask...YOGI...she knows.
>
> JMT Reinhold
>
>
>
> ---
> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
> https://www.avast.com/antivirus
> _______________________________________________
> Pct-L mailing list
> Pct-L at backcountry.net
> To unsubscribe, or change options visit:
> http://mailman.backcountry.net/mailman/listinfo/pct-l
>
> List Archives:
> http://mailman.backcountry.net/pipermail/pct-l/
> All content is copyrighted by the respective authors.
> Reproduction is prohibited without express permission.
>

From reinholdmetzger at cox.net  Mon Sep  5 04:46:27 2016
From: reinholdmetzger at cox.net (Reinhold Metzger)
Date: Mon, 5 Sep 2016 02:46:27 -0700
Subject: [pct-l] Fwd: Re:  Fwd: Re: New PCT Speed Record
In-Reply-To: <CAKXV64og8ReY-XzgaX5gLuf83Dv34bpiKykS_AKEmUi9=A6xnA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAKXV64og8ReY-XzgaX5gLuf83Dv34bpiKykS_AKEmUi9=A6xnA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <02b76d59-3a97-34e5-f06c-68fea3c3e243@cox.net>

Tim,

Your reply is exactly the kind of childish reply I would expect from

a turtle..."only talk about the PCT from a turtles point of view, the

way turtles hike, don't talk about the way rabbits hike, I don't like

the way rabbits hike."

Like I said, I am a turtle and a rabbit and hike on both sides of the

fence and understand how you feel.

What you don't seem to understand is that this list not a "turtles

only list"...there are also rabbits on the list and the PCT is not

a "for turtles only trail"...rabbits also hike the trail and the

list is to share information about hiking the trail whichever

way,...not just the turtles way.

JMT Reinhold...hiking the trail the rabbit & turtle way or whichever way.

....................................................

Tim Crum wrote:

I agree HYOH (as juvenile a response as it is that is more common to the 
Facebook PCT pages). I think though that it could be expanded to 
HYOH-BKITY (But Keep It To Yourself).
If you want to test your skills, push your limits, or impress yourself 
with things like how fast you can hike in a day, complete a trail, or 
how little or much weight you can carry, have a day then, but the bottom 
line is it is your goal and it doesn't really need to be shared on a 
site like this that is meant for the sharing of trail information, gear 
information, posting and answering questions, etc.
There are plenty of sites and social media pages for the listing of 
records and personal accomplishments (and other forms of
chest thumping, back patting, bragging, and horn blowing).

On Sun, Sep 4, 2016 at 3:34 PM, Reinhold Metzger 
<reinholdmetzger at cox.net <mailto:reinholdmetzger at cox.net>> wrote:

    Yes Sebastian......HYOH!!!!!

    There are "Turtles" and there are "Rabbits".

    Turtles will always criticize the rabbits for going to fast and not
    sniffing the flowers along the way and the rabbits will always
    criticize the turtles for slowly lumbering down the trail getting
    to enjoy only one half the wilderness, in a particular time frame,
    compared to rabbits.

    Who is to say that turtles, lumbering down the trail enjoy their
    journey more than rabbits, skip hopping down the trail?

    I say....let everyone hike their own merry way and enjoy their
    journey their own special way.

    I first set foot on the JMT in the summer of 1968 and have since
    thru-hiked it many times with my friends, my wife, the Boy
    Scouts or on my own.

    However, the ones that I seem to remember the best, and I am
    the most fond off, are my JMT speed hikes.
    There is something to be said about challenging yourself by
    setting extremely high goals and then pushing your body to the
    limit to achieve those goals.
    Besides,...the aches and the pains will soon be forgotten,...but
    the memories,....aaahhh,....the MEMORIES,....they will last a
    lifetime.

    I have been a rabbit and a turtle, enjoyed my journeys which
    ever way and came to realize there is no absolute correct way.
    Whether you hike like a turtle or a rabbit is usually a function
    of what you want out of your hike and your physical condition
    and whichever way makes you "happy" is the "correct" way
    for "YOU".

    JMT Reinhold
    Your happy trail companion skipping down the trail whichever way.


    Sebastian wrote....HYOH
    .......................................
    Tim wrote:
    Is anybody famous for just poking along the trail and enjoying it?
    Not worrying about how fast they can do the trip, how many
    miles they can do in one day, how little weight they can carry, etc.?
    It's a camping trip. Enjoy the walk!
    .......................................
    Reinhold wrote:

    Hi gang,
    Trouble is back in town.....the girls are dancing in the streets
    the guys are gnashing their teeth.

    Like some of you PCT fanatics probably already know, a 26 year
    old Belgian Dentist marathon runner by the name Karel Sabbe,
    who in the last 2 years has run close to 8,000 KM in 31 countries,
    set a new PCT speed record of 52 days, 8 hrs, 25 minutes.
    It should be noted that Karel did it as a marathon runner, with a
    support team, VS traditional backpacking where you carry all your
    gear and food, etc.

    Hats of to Karel, the new PCT sped record holder and his
    accomplishment.

    All records, sooner or later get broken.

    However, in my book, my buddy Scott Williamson still is, and
    probably always will be the undeniable, the unquestionable, and
    indisputable "King of the PCT" and his PCT accomplishments
    probably will never be equaled.

    "LONG LIVE THE KING" and may you have many offsprings to
    carry on his legacy.

    And also long live Switchback, the undeniable, the unquestionable,
    and indisputable"Rascal" of the PCT...aka Switchback the trail
    pirate, who's mischief of raiding and plundering innocent hikers
    also will never be equaled.

    I will not get into what I am famous for.

    You can ask...YOGI...she knows.

    JMT Reinhold






---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus

From billyvoid56 at yahoo.com  Mon Sep  5 09:47:57 2016
From: billyvoid56 at yahoo.com (sandy)
Date: Mon, 05 Sep 2016 07:47:57 -0700
Subject: [pct-l] Fwd: Re:  Fwd: Re: New PCT Speed Record
Message-ID: <mcrj2uik7lvm8fs8ilr6309s.1473086861055@email.android.com>


    
Hey all you pct hikers, my name is sanman and I'm preparing to thru hike the pct in may, you both seem experienced and knowledgeable, can anyone give me any suggestions on the best way to train and prepare for the awsome adventure I'm about to take??


Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE smartphone

-------- Original message --------
From: Reinhold Metzger <reinholdmetzger at cox.net> 
Date: 09/05/2016  2:46 AM  (GMT-08:00) 
To: PCT <pct-l at backcountry.net> 
Subject: [pct-l] Fwd: Re:  Fwd: Re: New PCT Speed Record 

Tim,

Your reply is exactly the kind of childish reply I would expect from

a turtle..."only talk about the PCT from a turtles point of view, the

way turtles hike, don't talk about the way rabbits hike, I don't like

the way rabbits hike."

Like I said, I am a turtle and a rabbit and hike on both sides of the

fence and understand how you feel.

What you don't seem to understand is that this list not a "turtles

only list"...there are also rabbits on the list and the PCT is not

a "for turtles only trail"...rabbits also hike the trail and the

list is to share information about hiking the trail whichever

way,...not just the turtles way.

JMT Reinhold...hiking the trail the rabbit & turtle way or whichever way.

....................................................

Tim Crum wrote:

I agree HYOH (as juvenile a response as it is that is more common to the 
Facebook PCT pages). I think though that it could be expanded to 
HYOH-BKITY (But Keep It To Yourself).
If you want to test your skills, push your limits, or impress yourself 
with things like how fast you can hike in a day, complete a trail, or 
how little or much weight you can carry, have a day then, but the bottom 
line is it is your goal and it doesn't really need to be shared on a 
site like this that is meant for the sharing of trail information, gear 
information, posting and answering questions, etc.
There are plenty of sites and social media pages for the listing of 
records and personal accomplishments (and other forms of
chest thumping, back patting, bragging, and horn blowing).

On Sun, Sep 4, 2016 at 3:34 PM, Reinhold Metzger 
<reinholdmetzger at cox.net <mailto:reinholdmetzger at cox.net>> wrote:

??? Yes Sebastian......HYOH!!!!!

??? There are "Turtles" and there are "Rabbits".

??? Turtles will always criticize the rabbits for going to fast and not
??? sniffing the flowers along the way and the rabbits will always
??? criticize the turtles for slowly lumbering down the trail getting
??? to enjoy only one half the wilderness, in a particular time frame,
??? compared to rabbits.

??? Who is to say that turtles, lumbering down the trail enjoy their
??? journey more than rabbits, skip hopping down the trail?

??? I say....let everyone hike their own merry way and enjoy their
??? journey their own special way.

??? I first set foot on the JMT in the summer of 1968 and have since
??? thru-hiked it many times with my friends, my wife, the Boy
??? Scouts or on my own.

??? However, the ones that I seem to remember the best, and I am
??? the most fond off, are my JMT speed hikes.
??? There is something to be said about challenging yourself by
??? setting extremely high goals and then pushing your body to the
??? limit to achieve those goals.
??? Besides,...the aches and the pains will soon be forgotten,...but
??? the memories,....aaahhh,....the MEMORIES,....they will last a
??? lifetime.

??? I have been a rabbit and a turtle, enjoyed my journeys which
??? ever way and came to realize there is no absolute correct way.
??? Whether you hike like a turtle or a rabbit is usually a function
??? of what you want out of your hike and your physical condition
??? and whichever way makes you "happy" is the "correct" way
??? for "YOU".

??? JMT Reinhold
??? Your happy trail companion skipping down the trail whichever way.


??? Sebastian wrote....HYOH
??? .......................................
??? Tim wrote:
??? Is anybody famous for just poking along the trail and enjoying it?
??? Not worrying about how fast they can do the trip, how many
??? miles they can do in one day, how little weight they can carry, etc.?
??? It's a camping trip. Enjoy the walk!
??? .......................................
??? Reinhold wrote:

??? Hi gang,
??? Trouble is back in town.....the girls are dancing in the streets
??? the guys are gnashing their teeth.

??? Like some of you PCT fanatics probably already know, a 26 year
??? old Belgian Dentist marathon runner by the name Karel Sabbe,
??? who in the last 2 years has run close to 8,000 KM in 31 countries,
??? set a new PCT speed record of 52 days, 8 hrs, 25 minutes.
??? It should be noted that Karel did it as a marathon runner, with a
??? support team, VS traditional backpacking where you carry all your
??? gear and food, etc.

??? Hats of to Karel, the new PCT sped record holder and his
??? accomplishment.

??? All records, sooner or later get broken.

??? However, in my book, my buddy Scott Williamson still is, and
??? probably always will be the undeniable, the unquestionable, and
??? indisputable "King of the PCT" and his PCT accomplishments
??? probably will never be equaled.

??? "LONG LIVE THE KING" and may you have many offsprings to
??? carry on his legacy.

??? And also long live Switchback, the undeniable, the unquestionable,
??? and indisputable"Rascal" of the PCT...aka Switchback the trail
??? pirate, who's mischief of raiding and plundering innocent hikers
??? also will never be equaled.

??? I will not get into what I am famous for.

??? You can ask...YOGI...she knows.

??? JMT Reinhold






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From hiker97 at aol.com  Tue Sep  6 00:57:33 2016
From: hiker97 at aol.com (hiker97 at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2016 01:57:33 -0400
Subject: [pct-l] New PCT Speed Record
In-Reply-To: <CAKXV64pWU5n+QgaSKYhVemeAvYVw=Xetm055eV70=pGdMB6usQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAKXV64pWU5n+QgaSKYhVemeAvYVw=Xetm055eV70=pGdMB6usQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <156fe12b370-22f3-ef4c@webprd-a85.mail.aol.com>



41401cl wrote: Is anybody famous for just poking along the trail and enjoying it? Not worrying about how fast they can do the trip, how many miles they can do in one day, how little weight they can carry, etc.?  It's a camping trip. Enjoy the walk!
 ------------------------------------------------------------
Switchback the Trail Pirate replies:  Yes, I plan on doing the PCT Most Supported record as soon as someone donates the money --- maybe about $50,000.  I will have lama and other hoof support the whole way.  I will carry my Zpack Arc Blast pack, but only with personal snacks, etc.  I figure about 5 pounds at the most.  On the trail each night I will have my hammock readied and food prepared by wranglers.  My trailtown stays will include the finest accommodations, pedicures, spas, and dinners with wine.  Should be a super vacation trip with minimal effort on my part.  I will laugh at the other backpackers on the trail struggling everyday against Mother Nature and eating backpacker foods.  I will welcome bad weather and the increased suffering of others on the trail.  I will enjoy the walk!



From reinholdmetzger at cox.net  Tue Sep  6 05:53:46 2016
From: reinholdmetzger at cox.net (Reinhold Metzger)
Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2016 03:53:46 -0700
Subject: [pct-l] Getting into "Thru-hiker" shape
In-Reply-To: <53067204.2050804@cox.net>
References: <53067204.2050804@cox.net>
Message-ID: <cf5816e0-6c14-9b2b-922a-9e7b813f7589@cox.net>



[pct-l] Getting into "Thru-hiker" shape in time for the KO

Hi gang,
Trying to get into "Thru-hiker" shape for the KO, but running out of time?
Before I sign off, I would like to share with you my "top secret" formula
on how to get into record breaking hiking shape in time for the KO.
It worked for me on my JMT record attempts.

OK guys.....here is what you do:......
Sit down on your favorite living room couch until you feel a strong,
distinct calorie urge.
Then, at a brisk pace, walk to the  "Frig", open the door, down one of
your favorite beers, close the "Frig" door, turn around, and then, again
at a brisk pace, walk back to the couch, sit down, and wait for the next
calorie urge.
Repeat the above, as often as necessary, until you are in  "Thru-hiker"
shape.

To get the maximum result from the above exercise it is suggested that
you do the above exercise with your pack, hiking boots and trekking poles
to simulate hiking conditions to the fullest.

WORD OF CAUTION:...To prevent damage to the floors or sustaining bodily
harm from your weaker opposite sex,..."DO NOT",...I repeat,..."DO NOT"
wear cramp-ons while conducting the above exercise.
  
Good luck on your journey and remember you learned this from JMT Reinhold.

JMT Reinhold
The  "Couch to Frig Yo-Yo"  record holder
.........................................

Sandy,
Just kidding....in my opinion, the best way to get into hiking shape is
just go out and hike, starting with easy hikes and work up gradually to
hikes that will be similar to what you will experience on the PCT...the
more, the better.
Other exercises like jogging, biking, going up and down stairs etc.,to
strengthen your legs will help, but nothing will exercise your hiking
muscles like hiking.
Also try to find a pair of hiking shoes that work best for you...many
hikers develop foot problems along the way.
Also try to work in some long hikes and work on the mental issue.
Many hikers, after a few weeks on the trail, bail out because they
are not mentally prepared to hike for several weeks or month and just
burn out mentally.
Good luck on your hike.

JMT Reinhold
..........................

Sandy wrote:
Hey all you pct hikers, my name is sanman and I'm preparing to thru
hike the pct in may......can anyone give me any suggestions on the
best way to train and prepare....................?
  
   



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From ned at mountaineducation.org  Wed Sep 14 12:08:32 2016
From: ned at mountaineducation.org (ned at mountaineducation.org)
Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2016 10:08:32 -0700
Subject: [pct-l] Weather watch now, Class of '17
Message-ID: <0fb001d20eaa$9f7d64b0$de782e10$@mountaineducation.org>

Class of '17!

I want you to pay attention to the weather this September-November because,
for the majority of you, these are the months in which you'll be ending your
thru hikes next year. Watch, now, to be ready, then.

Doesn't matter whether you are planning on going NoBo or SoBo, watch how the
weather comes in this fall and how the high country along the PCT
transitions to winter. What you see this year, you may experience next year.
(Of course, this is not always true, but be aware, nonetheless, to help make
your planning decisions).

The points are,
- NoBo: Get to Manning by mid-September and
- SoBo: Get through the Sierra by mid-November

to avoid cold, wet, and maybe deep powder snow keeping you from your dream
of completing a thru hike of the Pacific Crest Trail.

The premise is this,
- Fall and winter weather bring cold, lots of damp, and maybe freezing rain
or powder snow. The human body does not do well in this environment without
help and that needs to be anticipated by having an awareness of it. If you
spend too much time while NoBo along the trail in the south and find
yourself way behind schedule, these conditions can and have stopped many a
thru hiker just shy of their goal after working towards it for months.

If you want a fun and successful thru hike, among many things, know what
you're up against and prepare for them, know your self and why you're there,
practice the skills required to overcome expected adversity and challenge
(personal/internal and environmental/external), and take lots of
progressively longer hikes, ending with one that is as exposed as the PCT
and long enough to require a resupply (3 weeks).

You will be hearing more advice from me as your start dates get nearer, as I
want all of you to have the fun and safe life-changing wilderness journeys
you hope for, but those come with planning grounded in reality! I will be
talking more about the "Realities of the Trail" over the next few months.

 

 

Ned Tibbits, Director

Mountain Education, Inc.

ned at mountaineducation.org <mailto:ned at mountaineducation.org>  

 


From ned at mountaineducation.org  Wed Sep 14 12:15:13 2016
From: ned at mountaineducation.org (ned at mountaineducation.org)
Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2016 10:15:13 -0700
Subject: [pct-l] Weather watch now, Class of '17
In-Reply-To: <CAMVpg+eb0uLH3e1YCnWPc0ocEOSiHhuSS3T6E94KeDcYdYtacQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <0fb001d20eaa$9f7d64b0$de782e10$@mountaineducation.org>
 <CAMVpg+eb0uLH3e1YCnWPc0ocEOSiHhuSS3T6E94KeDcYdYtacQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <0fe301d20eab$8ef0d4f0$acd27ed0$@mountaineducation.org>

Thanks, Marty! I only hope what I share might help future thrus have a safe and fun time out there enjoying the hike of their dreams.

 

Ned Tibbits, Director

Mountain Education, Inc.

 <mailto:ned at mountaineducation.org> ned at mountaineducation.org 

 

From: Marty [mailto:rokcrawlin at gmail.com] 
Sent: Wednesday, September 14, 2016 10:12 AM
To: ned at mountaineducation.org
Subject: Re: [pct-l] Weather watch now, Class of '17

 

Thanks Ned, Looking forwards to more of these emails

 

Marty

 

On Wed, Sep 14, 2016 at 10:08 AM, <ned at mountaineducation.org <mailto:ned at mountaineducation.org> > wrote:

Class of '17!

I want you to pay attention to the weather this September-November because,
for the majority of you, these are the months in which you'll be ending your
thru hikes next year. Watch, now, to be ready, then.

Doesn't matter whether you are planning on going NoBo or SoBo, watch how the
weather comes in this fall and how the high country along the PCT
transitions to winter. What you see this year, you may experience next year.
(Of course, this is not always true, but be aware, nonetheless, to help make
your planning decisions).

The points are,
- NoBo: Get to Manning by mid-September and
- SoBo: Get through the Sierra by mid-November

to avoid cold, wet, and maybe deep powder snow keeping you from your dream
of completing a thru hike of the Pacific Crest Trail.

The premise is this,
- Fall and winter weather bring cold, lots of damp, and maybe freezing rain
or powder snow. The human body does not do well in this environment without
help and that needs to be anticipated by having an awareness of it. If you
spend too much time while NoBo along the trail in the south and find
yourself way behind schedule, these conditions can and have stopped many a
thru hiker just shy of their goal after working towards it for months.

If you want a fun and successful thru hike, among many things, know what
you're up against and prepare for them, know your self and why you're there,
practice the skills required to overcome expected adversity and challenge
(personal/internal and environmental/external), and take lots of
progressively longer hikes, ending with one that is as exposed as the PCT
and long enough to require a resupply (3 weeks).

You will be hearing more advice from me as your start dates get nearer, as I
want all of you to have the fun and safe life-changing wilderness journeys
you hope for, but those come with planning grounded in reality! I will be
talking more about the "Realities of the Trail" over the next few months.





Ned Tibbits, Director

Mountain Education, Inc.

ned at mountaineducation.org <mailto:ned at mountaineducation.org>  <mailto:ned at mountaineducation.org <mailto:ned at mountaineducation.org> >



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To unsubscribe, or change options visit:
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All content is copyrighted by the respective authors.
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From reinholdmetzger at cox.net  Wed Sep 14 21:25:18 2016
From: reinholdmetzger at cox.net (Reinhold Metzger)
Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2016 19:25:18 -0700
Subject: [pct-l] Weather watch now, Class of '17
Message-ID: <c224074a-49e9-7403-324d-b31d4cc5dabf@cox.net>



Listen to what Ned is saying gang,....Ned knows what he is talking about.

He is the expert when it comes to hiking in snow.

The only thing I would like to point out is that I always prefer and

recommend getting through the Sierra by the end of September.

The Sierra, because of its elevation, is a different kind of a beast.

It can snow in the Sierra at any time of the year, even in the middle

of summer...I have gotten snowed on in the Sierra in the middle of

the summer on more than one occasion.

However, after September, the chance of new snow in the Sierra

increases drastically, changes the whole equation, and you better be

prepared for serious snow hiking.

Scott Williamson, with 14 PCT thru-hikes (16 counting section hikes),

including 2 PCT yo-yo thru-hikes, and 3 prior PCT speed records, the

undeniable, unquestionable, indisputable "KING" of the PCT had to

bail out and abandon 2 other yo-yo attempts, in prior years, because

he got back  to the Sierra to late, after it already started snowing, on

his way back to the Mexican border.

Like I said, the equation changes dramatically ones it starts snowing

in the Sierra....that is why I prefer to get through the Sierra before

October.

JMT Reinhold

............................................................


  [pct-l] Weather watch now, Class of '17

*ned at mountaineducation.org*ned at 
mountaineducation.org<mailto:pct-l%40backcountry.net?Subject=Re%3A%20%5Bpct-l%5D%20Weather%20watch%20now%2C%20Class%20of%20%2717&In-Reply-To=%3C0fb001d20eaa%249f7d64b0%24de782e10%24%40mountaineducation.org%3E>
/Wed Sep 14 12:08:32 CDT 2016/
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Class of '17!

I want you to pay attention to the weather this September-November because,
for the majority of you, these are the months in which you'll be ending your
thru hikes next year. Watch, now, to be ready, then.

Doesn't matter whether you are planning on going NoBo or SoBo, watch how the
weather comes in this fall and how the high country along the PCT
transitions to winter. What you see this year, you may experience next year.
(Of course, this is not always true, but be aware, nonetheless, to help make
your planning decisions).

The points are,
- NoBo: Get to Manning by mid-September and
- SoBo: Get through the Sierra by mid-November

to avoid cold, wet, and maybe deep powder snow keeping you from your dream
of completing a thru hike of the Pacific Crest Trail.

The premise is this,
- Fall and winter weather bring cold, lots of damp, and maybe freezing rain
or powder snow. The human body does not do well in this environment without
help and that needs to be anticipated by having an awareness of it. If you
spend too much time while NoBo along the trail in the south and find
yourself way behind schedule, these conditions can and have stopped many a
thru hiker just shy of their goal after working towards it for months.

If you want a fun and successful thru hike, among many things, know what
you're up against and prepare for them, know your self and why you're there,
practice the skills required to overcome expected adversity and challenge
(personal/internal and environmental/external), and take lots of
progressively longer hikes, ending with one that is as exposed as the PCT
and long enough to require a resupply (3 weeks).

You will be hearing more advice from me as your start dates get nearer, as I
want all of you to have the fun and safe life-changing wilderness journeys
you hope for, but those come with planning grounded in reality! I will be
talking more about the "Realities of the Trail" over the next few months.

  

  

Ned Tibbits, Director

Mountain Education, Inc.

ned at mountaineducation.org 
<http://mailman.backcountry.net/mailman/listinfo/pct-l>  <mailto:ned at mountaineducation.org 
<http://mailman.backcountry.net/mailman/listinfo/pct-l>>




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From ned at mountaineducation.org  Fri Sep 16 11:42:38 2016
From: ned at mountaineducation.org (ned at mountaineducation.org)
Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2016 09:42:38 -0700
Subject: [pct-l] Weather watch now, Class of '17
In-Reply-To: <c224074a-49e9-7403-324d-b31d4cc5dabf@cox.net>
References: <c224074a-49e9-7403-324d-b31d4cc5dabf@cox.net>
Message-ID: <054301d21039$5646da70$02d48f50$@mountaineducation.org>

Thanks, Reinhold, for all your support and encouragement over the years!

I stretch the time frame to mid-November because most of the storms that hit
the Sierra early, September thru November, are usually less than a foot in
quantity and melt off within a day or so of the sun coming out. This is not
based on any statistics, but rather my own on-trail experience during those
months. However, you'll see below, that I have revised my recommended time
frames. [Dittli, would you concur?]

Let's look at the SoBo thru hike time window respective of powder snow
"bookends,"

At the Pacific Northwest end...

Light Winter:  consider a mid-June start
Average Winter:  consider a July 4th start (based on the recommendations by
locals)
Heavy Winter:  consider an August 1st start

At the Sierra end...
(again, these dates are based on living in the Sierra for the past 30 years.
A statistician can refine this...)

Early Winter:  ski areas open on Thanksgiving
Average Winter:  ski areas open for Christmas
Late Winter:  ski areas make snow for Christmas and pray for snow in January

People need to realize that storms track three ways on the coast, 
- hit to the north, Portland and Seattle, and miss the Sierra
- hit both the north and south, tracking down the coast on its way east
- hit the south and miss the north.

Therefore, one end is usually hit harder than the other. So, it becomes a
gamble what you'll get when doing your planning months ahead of a hike!
Start dates SoBo have to be flexible and hikers have to be patient for safe
trail conditions. The longer you wait to start, the more consolidated will
be the snow and with wisdom, the safer you may be.

So, let's put together the 9 possibilities:
(Premise: 1 month for Washington, 1 month for Oregon, 1 month for NorCal,
and then they are in the Sierra at Donner)

1. PNW post-average winter to Sierra average winter start:
- July 4th to November 1st  (5 months of trail time)
- Meaning:  hikers start on steep, slippery, consolidated snow and go
through the Sierra under a moderate threat of light snow.

2. PNW post-average winter to Sierra late winter start:
- July 4th to mid-November (4.5 months)
- Meaning: hikers start on steep, slippery, consolidated snow and go through
the Sierra under a light-moderate threat of light snow.

3. PNW post-average winter to Sierra early winter start:
- July 4th to mid-October (3.5 months)
- Meaning: hikers start on steep, slippery, consolidated snow and go through
the Sierra under a moderate threat of light/heavy snow.

4. PNW post-light winter to Sierra late winter start:
- Mid-June to mid-November (5 months)
- Meaning: hikers will start on a thinner snowpack of steep, slippery snow
and go through the Sierra under a mild threat of light snow.

5 & 6

7. PNW post-heavy winter to Sierra early winter start:
- August 1st to mid-October (2.5 months)
- Meaning: hikers will start on steep, slippery consolidated snow and have a
moderate threat of snow in the northern Sierra and a pretty good chance of
deeper powder snow in the higher Sierra that may stop them in their tracks.

8 & 9

I'm not going to extrapolate all of them. You can see where I'm going. SoBo
hikers will have to do their best with the hiking season they get, being
aware of what can happen weather-wise in fall season Sierra.


Ned Tibbits, Director
Mountain Education, Inc.
ned at mountaineducation.org 

-----Original Message-----
From: Pct-L [mailto:pct-l-bounces at backcountry.net] On Behalf Of Reinhold
Metzger
Sent: Wednesday, September 14, 2016 7:25 PM
To: PCT <pct-l at backcountry.net>
Subject: [pct-l] Weather watch now, Class of '17



Listen to what Ned is saying gang,....Ned knows what he is talking about.

He is the expert when it comes to hiking in snow.

The only thing I would like to point out is that I always prefer and

recommend getting through the Sierra by the end of September.

The Sierra, because of its elevation, is a different kind of a beast.

It can snow in the Sierra at any time of the year, even in the middle

of summer...I have gotten snowed on in the Sierra in the middle of

the summer on more than one occasion.

However, after September, the chance of new snow in the Sierra

increases drastically, changes the whole equation, and you better be

prepared for serious snow hiking.

Scott Williamson, with 14 PCT thru-hikes (16 counting section hikes),

including 2 PCT yo-yo thru-hikes, and 3 prior PCT speed records, the

undeniable, unquestionable, indisputable "KING" of the PCT had to

bail out and abandon 2 other yo-yo attempts, in prior years, because

he got back  to the Sierra to late, after it already started snowing, on

his way back to the Mexican border.

Like I said, the equation changes dramatically ones it starts snowing

in the Sierra....that is why I prefer to get through the Sierra before

October.

JMT Reinhold

............................................................


  [pct-l] Weather watch now, Class of '17

*ned at mountaineducation.org*ned at
mountaineducation.org<mailto:pct-l%40backcountry.net?Subject=Re%3A%20%5Bpct-
l%5D%20Weather%20watch%20now%2C%20Class%20of%20%2717&In-Reply-To=%3C0fb001d2
0eaa%249f7d64b0%24de782e10%24%40mountaineducation.org%3E>
/Wed Sep 14 12:08:32 CDT 2016/
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Class of '17!

I want you to pay attention to the weather this September-November because,
for the majority of you, these are the months in which you'll be ending your
thru hikes next year. Watch, now, to be ready, then.

Doesn't matter whether you are planning on going NoBo or SoBo, watch how the
weather comes in this fall and how the high country along the PCT
transitions to winter. What you see this year, you may experience next year.
(Of course, this is not always true, but be aware, nonetheless, to help make
your planning decisions).

The points are,
- NoBo: Get to Manning by mid-September and
- SoBo: Get through the Sierra by mid-November

to avoid cold, wet, and maybe deep powder snow keeping you from your dream
of completing a thru hike of the Pacific Crest Trail.

The premise is this,
- Fall and winter weather bring cold, lots of damp, and maybe freezing rain
or powder snow. The human body does not do well in this environment without
help and that needs to be anticipated by having an awareness of it. If you
spend too much time while NoBo along the trail in the south and find
yourself way behind schedule, these conditions can and have stopped many a
thru hiker just shy of their goal after working towards it for months.

If you want a fun and successful thru hike, among many things, know what
you're up against and prepare for them, know your self and why you're there,
practice the skills required to overcome expected adversity and challenge
(personal/internal and environmental/external), and take lots of
progressively longer hikes, ending with one that is as exposed as the PCT
and long enough to require a resupply (3 weeks).

You will be hearing more advice from me as your start dates get nearer, as I
want all of you to have the fun and safe life-changing wilderness journeys
you hope for, but those come with planning grounded in reality! I will be
talking more about the "Realities of the Trail" over the next few months.

  

  

Ned Tibbits, Director

Mountain Education, Inc.

ned at mountaineducation.org
<http://mailman.backcountry.net/mailman/listinfo/pct-l>  <mailto:ned at
mountaineducation.org
<http://mailman.backcountry.net/mailman/listinfo/pct-l>>




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From bwatt at 1fifoto.com  Sun Sep 18 20:16:56 2016
From: bwatt at 1fifoto.com (Brian Watt)
Date: Sun, 18 Sep 2016 20:16:56 -0500
Subject: [pct-l] Austin Long Distance Hiker group meet-up
Message-ID: <85e8657a-b6b1-141e-1291-59898a5006dd@1fifoto.com>

Are you interested in taking a long hike? Are you thinking about it? 
Have you just finished one? Would you like to talk about your 
experiences? We'd like to get together and chat. We've got an upstairs 
room at the Downtown REI, 601 N Lamar Blvd, Austin, TX, on October 19th 
from 6 to 9 PM. No formal presentation is planned, just a meet-up and 
Q&A. See you then!


From ned at mountaineducation.org  Mon Sep 19 14:56:54 2016
From: ned at mountaineducation.org (ned at mountaineducation.org)
Date: Mon, 19 Sep 2016 12:56:54 -0700
Subject: [pct-l] SoBo hiking season extrapolations expanded
Message-ID: <022a01d212af$f90ad860$eb208920$@mountaineducation.org>

PCT SoBo single-season thru hike time frame extrapolations:

 

 

 

Let's look at the SoBo thru hike time window respective of powder snow
"bookends:"

 

Preview:

 

At the Pacific Northwest end...

 

Light Winter:  consider a mid-June start

Average Winter:  consider a July 4th start (based on the recommendations by
locals)

Heavy Winter:  consider an August 1st start

 

At the Sierra end...

(again, these dates are based on living in the Sierra for the past 30 years.
A statistician can refine this...)

 

Early Winter:  Mid-October clear the Sierra (ski areas open on Thanksgiving)

Average Winter:  November 1st clear the Sierra (ski areas open for
Christmas)

Late Winter:  Mid-November clear the Sierra (ski areas make snow for
Christmas and pray for snow in January)

 

People need to realize that storms track three ways on the coast, 

- hit to the north, Portland and Seattle, and graze the Sierra

- hit both the north and south, tracking down the coast on its way east

- hit the south and graze the north.

 

Therefore, one end is usually hit harder than the other. So, it becomes a
gamble what you'll get when doing your planning months ahead of a hike!
Start dates SoBo have to be flexible and hikers have to be patient for safe
trail conditions. The longer you wait to start, the more consolidated will
be the snow and with wisdom, the safer you may be.

 

Premises:

 

-          1 month for Washington, 1 month for Oregon, 1 month for NorCal,
and 1 month to clear the Sierra, Donner to Cottonwood Passes,

-          Most SoBo hikers can clear the Sierra by the 4-month mark.

-          Wherever you find snow, know how to safely walk on and
confidently navigate over it.

-          This is not based on any statistics, but rather my own on-trail
experiences during those months in the Sierra and PNW.

-          I stretch the latest time to clear the Sierra to mid-November
because most of the storms that hit the Sierra early, September thru
November, are usually less than a foot in quantity and melt off within a day
or so of the sun coming out. This doesn't mean that it will for you when you
are there, sunlight, aspect, and temperature depending.

-          Nothing is cast in stone. What you will see for snow depth and
coverage when you get there will have been affected by length of sunlight,
amount of rain, timing of last snowstorm, wind, temperature, and aspect of
the exposure. There may be no snow or total coverage.

-          The longer you wait to start after these suggested start dates,
the less snow will be present on the trail. You will have sections of dry
trail, patches of steep snow, or entire expanses of snow.

-          The primary issue with snow on the PCT in the PNW is the
steepness of the terrain the trail cuts through. When the snow covers the
trail on steep slopes, it assumes the pitch of the slope. If the slope is
30-degrees, where in the summer the flat trailbed is exposed and dry, when
covered in a few feet of snow, it will not exist and look like the rest of
the hillside you have to traverse.

-          Anyone with training can go straight up or down, it is the steep
traverses that require extreme caution and careful foot placement with
traction aides and self-arrest devices.

 

 

So, let's put together the 9 possibilities:

 

1. PNW post-light winter to Sierra late winter start:

- Start: Mid-June 

- Clear Sierra by mid-November bookend

- Hiking time, start to Cottonwood Pass: 5 months

- Meaning: hikers may start on a snowpack of steep, slippery snow and go
through the Sierra ((majority go thru mid-Sept to mid-Oct) under a mild
threat of light snowstorms.

 

2. PNW post-light winter to Sierra average winter start:

- Start: Mid-June 

- Clear Sierra by November 1st 

- Hiking time, start to Cottonwood Pass: 4.5 months

- Meaning: hikers may start on a snowpack of steep, slippery snow and go
through the Sierra (mid-Sept to mid-Oct) under a mild/moderate threat of
light/moderate snow.

 

3. PNW post-light winter to Sierra early winter start:

- Start: Mid-June 

- Clear Sierra by mid-October

- Hiking time, start to Cottonwood Pass: 4 months

- Meaning: hikers may start on a snowpack of steep, slippery snow and go
through the Sierra (mid-Sept to mid-Oct) under a moderate threat of
moderate/heavy snow. 

 

4. PNW post-average winter to Sierra late winter start:

- Start: July 4th 

- Clear Sierra by mid-November bookend

- Hiking time, start to Cottonwood Pass: 4.5 months

- Meaning: hikers may start on steep, slippery, consolidated snow and go
through the Sierra (majority go thru Oct. 1st to Nov. 1st) under a
light-moderate threat of light/moderate snowstorms.

 

5. PNW post-average winter to Sierra average winter start:

- Start: July 4th 

- Clear Sierra by November 1st

- Hiking time, start to Cottonwood Pass: 4 months

- Meaning:  hikers may start on steep, slippery, consolidated snow and go
through the Sierra under a moderate threat of moderately heavy snow.

 

6. PNW post-average winter to Sierra early winter start:

- Start: July 4th 

- Clear Sierra by mid-October

- Hiking time, start to Cottonwood Pass: 3.5 months

- Meaning: hikers may start on steep, slippery, consolidated snow and go
through the Sierra under a substantial threat of moderate to heavy snow.

 

7. PNW post-heavy winter to Sierra late winter start:

- Start: August 1st

- Clear Sierra by mid-November bookend, if possible

- Hiking time, start to Cottonwood Pass: 3.5 months

- Meaning: hikers may start on steep, slippery consolidated snow and go
through the Sierra (majority go thru Nov. 1st to Dec. 1st) under a moderate
threat of moderately heavy snow.

 

8. PNW post-heavy winter to Sierra average winter start:

- Start: August 1st 

- Clear Sierra by November 1st, if possible. You will have to hurry a bit.

- Hiking time, start to Cottonwood Pass: 3 months

- Meaning: hikers may start on steep, slippery consolidated snow and go
through the Sierra under a substantial threat of moderately heavy snow.

 

9. PNW post-heavy winter to Sierra early winter start:

- Start: August 1st

- Clear Sierra by mid-October. Maybe flip-flop to do the sierra early, then
do NorCal and SoCal.

- Hiking time start to Cottonwood Pass: 2.5 months (not realistic for most
continuous thru hikers)

- Meaning: hikers may start on steep, slippery consolidated snow and enter
and go through the Sierra under a relatively serious threat of potentially
heavy snow. Utilize flip-flops after Oregon to get the Sierra done before
mid-October. NorCal/SoCal are lower, so the risk of snow can be less late in
the hiking season window.

 

Overview:

 

- Powder snow can stop you in your tracks and snowshoes don't help much.
Avoid it.

- Hard, consolidated snow you can walk on top of, but may soften under
sunshine and longer days to make postholing conditions a real exhausting
problem. Avoid this, too.

- A little fresh snow is not a big deal as the trailbed remains flat,
side-to-side, and visible.

- After a light snowfall, the trail beneath becomes wet, icy, and very
slippery as you kick through it.

- No matter when you start SoBo, you've got to keep an eye on the Sierra
weather forecasts.

- The later you start, the less steep snow in the PNW, but the more you may
have to hurry south, especially if you start hearing about the Sierra temps
growing cold and the aspen leaves starting to turn color.

- You need around 4 months from start to Cottonwood Pass. 

- #5, the average PNW to average Sierra hiking window, is pushing it at 4
months. #6, 7, 8, and 9 are even worse and may require flip-flopping to
solve the Sierra problem.

 

I hope this helped make better sense of what I wrote the other day!

 

 

Ned Tibbits, Director

Mountain Education, Inc.

ned at mountaineducation.org <mailto:ned at mountaineducation.org>  

 


From ned at mountaineducation.org  Wed Sep 21 16:22:08 2016
From: ned at mountaineducation.org (ned at mountaineducation.org)
Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2016 14:22:08 -0700
Subject: [pct-l] How? Planning vs. Preparation for a Thru Hike
Message-ID: <180a01d2144e$3639fbe0$a2adf3a0$@mountaineducation.org>

"How?"   (Thru Hike Planning vs. Preparing)

 

Planning is like making a shopping list.

 

Preparing is knowing and practicing what it will take to go get them.

 

For the long-distance thru-hiker, planning is researching what you'll need
to accomplish the hike. There are the known obvious things like clothing,
shelter, food, maps, and resupply logistics, but too many novice hikers seem
to forget to realize the serious importance of preparing to do the hike.

 

To prepare to go shopping, for example, we realize that we need to get
ourselves ready, first, make sure the car has gas and is insured, know the
way there and how to park without hitting something, know how to get around
in the store and find what you're looking for without getting lost, and have
enough money to buy everything on the list. So, there is a lot to know
before you go, but there must be an awareness of what actions are required
to be successful and that takes experience.

 

I can hear the novice asking, "Ok. I want to hike the John Muir Trail
because pictures of it are so pretty, but I have a ton of initial questions
running around in my head! How is it done? How do I stay safe? Can I get
hurt? Is it dangerous? Where does it go? How long will it take? What happens
if it rains? What do I need to do to prepare?"

 

Interestingly enough, most of our initial, broad-based, romantic questions
regard the doing and not so much the planning. It seems as though once
people have decided they want to do something, whether realistic or not,
they immediately launch into discovering the doing of the thing, then get
lost in the planning of it, and completely forget along the way to practice
the doing. Every year, energetic thru hikers take off from their trailheads
and suddenly realize they don't know what they're doing and numerous
problems immediately arise that can send them back home. They have planned
to do it, but don't know how! 

 

As we said above, Preparation teaches the "How" of doing something, at least
in our minds. Preparation basics usually involve learning how to use your
selected food, clothing, and equipment to where you're happy with it. This
will also include practicing how to live outdoors efficiently to where
everything you do each day is safe, relaxing, and satisfying. (Yes, even
wilderness challenges, once you gain experience or training, become simple,
though maybe more detailed.) Both of these areas of outdoor learning are
progressive. Good and thorough preparation will allow your planning to
include everything needed for a successful hike from the start!

 

Start by conditioning the physical body to walking. Muscles know no age, but
they can be very out of shape! Walk as long and as often as your body's
complaints will allow. Treat every complaint seriously and seek medical
attention if swelling or pain shows up. 

 

Walk around the block. Walk to the store and back. Do this once a week.
Stronger? No issues? Do this every-other day. Find a local park or
recreation area where there are hills and uneven trail. Train your joints,
tendons, and ligaments to become used to the vibration and pounding. Ease
into your training mileage and work up to the daily distances you think you
want to accomplish once on-trail. Listen to your body's complaints and
adjust accordingly! Too aggressive a start can bring too much pain or
discomfort and send you right back home to rest for a week.

 

Change your footwear, once on trails, to the kind of shoes you think will
work well and you'll like for backpacking. Add a backpack with only day
hiking supplies. Listen to your back and feet. Treat the aches, pains, and
blisters as needed. Try different shoe types as needed. Ease into this
regimen, too, then add weight and miles. If anything you're using is
bringing you grief or doesn't work as desired, change it and go again. This
process is giving you experience that shows you what "works" for you and
what could be intolerable! Remember, one man's heaven can be another man's
hell!

 

Now, at the same time, spend a few nights in your tent of choice in the
backyard. While you're at it, cycle the sprinklers to come on during the
night. This kind of simple test can answer many of your planning and
preparation questions regarding camping like:

 

-          How big and heavy is the packed tent?

-          How many parts does it have and how easy is it to pitch?

-          Is it really waterproof? Windproof? 

-          Do I have enough room inside to change my clothes after pitching
in the rain?

-          Can I store all my gear inside during a storm and still have room
to function?

-           Is it easy to get in and out of the door?

-          Is there enough room inside to safely use my stove when it's
storming outside?

-          As the tent gets wet, does it loosen up and sag? Can I tighten it
up so it doesn't flap in the wind?

-          When it's cold outside and warm inside, does condensation build
up on the inner walls to drip down and get me wet?

If anything becomes frustrating, dissatisfying, or simply doesn't "work" for
the way you're discovering how you like to do things, seek further advice,
find a different way of doing the same thing, or get a different tent
because you don't want to have these issues once on your thru hike!

 

At the same time, cook your home menu on your backpacking stove in your
kitchen. Get used to using it. Learn its quirks, problems, and repairs. If
it's too heavy, bulky, or complicated, seek further advice, but remember,
you may have to use your stove in your nylon tent when it's storming
outside, so alcohol stoves don't qualify. Then, cook outside in the wind,
wet, and cold.

 

At the same time, start eating your hiking menu at home while you still have
a toilet nearby. If a food is going to give you diarrhea or make you
constipated, it is best to discover this at home rather than miles from the
trailhead with limited toilet paper. You may find that a popular food item
just doesn't "work" for you or your body. Design your trail menu this way.

 

Now, take the whole mess onto the trail for an overnight! This will answer a
whole slew of questions, even before you leave your house, like:

 

-          Does everything I want to bring fit in my pack?

-          Where do I want to put each item for balance and ease of access?

-          How does a fully loaded pack feel on my back, shoulders, pelvis,
hips, knees, and feet?

-          How do my feet feel in my shoes of choice?

-          Yes, I can strap stuff to the outside of my pack, but should I?

-          Where do I put immediate-need stuff like camera, map, lip balm,
or whistle?

Once on-trail, hike half the total miles you were able to do without the
loaded pack and get into camp early enough to take time pitching and getting
organized the way you think you'll like to be. This process of camping in a
foreign place will teach you many more "how-to" details like:

 

-          Campsite selection, location, access to water (or not), exposure
to wind and sun, sanitation issues, and more. Toilet paper? Trowel? Baby
wipes? 

-          How you like to be organized in your tent. What needs to go in
and where.

-          What to do if your stakes can't pierce the ground. How to make a
"Deadman" anchor.

-          Getting water out of a lake or creek, filtering it, and keeping
enough of it in your tent for dinner and breakfast. Which water purification
method and canteen "works" for you.

-          Cooking on uneven ground, whether in or out of your tent, and
dealing with the weather.

-          Clean-up, after meals and of the body and personal hygiene. 

-          Leave-No-Trace ethics and practices (leave your campsite as you
found it). Pack out waste!

-          Evening and morning things you want to do.

-          Re-packing your pack so you can get to priority things easily.

Make mental notes of things you want to change, go home, and get re-packed
for a 3-day weekend trip!

 

The 3-day weekend trip should teach you how to stay out a bit longer and how
that might affect you and what you bring and do. You need to learn:

 

-          Do I get lonely? Do I prefer to hike with a friend? Do I like
being by myself for an extended time?

-          Do I like camping or hiking? Do I prefer relaxing and exploring
around camp or the challenges of backpacking into the night or hiking long
days?

-          Weather can change from day to day, so I might need to carry a
wider variety of clothing for rain, sleet, hot sun, cold, wind, etc.

-          To be more self-sufficient and independent. Since the car and
home are so far away, I'll need to take care of my crises right on the trail
and not wait to go home to solve the problem.

-          How to pack up every morning, eat snacks and tend to blisters
along the trail, find lunch and purify more water at noon, watch the
weather, how to follow a trail and anticipate landmarks so you don't get
misplaced, and set up camp at the end of your day.

-          What you like to eat once on-trail (this may differ from what
"worked" at home).  

Make mental notes of things you want to change, go home, and get re-packed
for a week-long trip!

 

The week-long trip will teach you how to create systems of operation and
action that are even more efficient. The car will be even further away, so
you'll have to become even more self-reliant, cautious, and wise to minimize
mistakes or injury far from help. You will learn at this stage of
preparation:

 

-          How fast you go through fuel, both in your body and in your
stove.

-          How you deal with internal and external factors like altitude,
cold, wet, heat, dehydration, electrolyte imbalances, cramps, rain, hail,
snow, fatigue, loneliness, hunger, gastric upsets, miscellaneous fears and
concerns, daily logistics of mileage and campsites, creek crossings, use of
map and compass or trail guidebooks, extended personal hygiene, and more.

-          Wilderness medical treatments to keep you sound of mind and body.

-          How to repair stuff that breaks, rips, or gets chewed into by a
mouse.

-          That you will make mistakes, but with wisdom and caution you can
minimize them!

Lastly, for the long-distance thru hiker, go home, make changes, and plan a
2 or 3-week trip!

 

This extended outing is crucial for these reasons and more:

 

-          You'll need a resupply! Most hikers are not willing to carry 20
days of food and supplies, but there may be places along the trail where,
even if just a short distance off-trail, they can buy food off the shelf or
pick up a resupply box they mailed to themselves.

-          You'll be out long enough to develop "hiker hunger." Most hikers
can go about 4 days without feeling really hungry. The meals they brought
have been a little too big. Then things change! Somewhere around the week
mark, people start being glad they brought large meals because they're
"Really Hungry!" This experience will teach you how much food you need to
pack to maintain clarity of thought, body temperature, muscle strength, and
overall energy. Everyone's needs are different here, too! This is how you
find out how much you need to do what you want out on the trail. 

-          Dealing with weather extremes. Most of us can watch the weather
forecasts to select a fair weather window for a backpacking trip. If you
stay out longer, you just might have to deal with some nasty stuff like
wind-blown rain or hail, below freezing cold, or even snow. In mountainous
terrain, the very elevation changes can create local weather with clouds
overhead bringing rain, high winds, thunder storms, and maybe lightning. On
your anticipated thru hike, you'll be out long enough for these conditions
to occur, so you should prepare to ensure your warmth and safety through
them.

-          Accidents and unfortunate stuff happens. The more time you spend
in risky or inclement conditions, the greater the chance something will
happen. Whether due to haste, inattention, thoughtlessness, poor planning
(you brought the wrong stuff), inadequate preparation (you never faced this
challenge before), you simply didn't know what to anticipate (which is
probably poor planning and research), or insufficient skills training (how
do you walk on snow or cross creeks?), you may experience anything from a
mild injury to finding yourself completely lost. They say that you can't
anticipate everything, but when you are miles from help, you might want to!
Yes, it might mean a heavier and bulkier pack, but when the tent pole
breaks, your blister becomes infected, a tooth cracks, your sleeping pad
pops, you twist an ankle, your pack's waist belt rips, or you get stung by a
bee, you'll be able to take care of yourself or others, should something
like these happen to them. You are a member of the hiking community, now.
Watch out for each other!

Thru Hike Preparation:  

 

On-trail experience already learned that will allow your planning stage to
create a thru hike that, 

-          "works" for your style and purpose of hiking, 

-           starts off in wisdom, 

-          minimizes trail mistakes and hazards, and

-          keeps you on-trail, well supplied, in-touch, and on schedule to a
successful finish.

 

C Mountain Education, Inc. 2016

 

 

Ned Tibbits, Director

Mountain Education, Inc.

ned at mountaineducation.org <mailto:ned at mountaineducation.org>  

 


From sdscpcts at yahoo.com  Wed Sep 21 13:57:16 2016
From: sdscpcts at yahoo.com (sdscpcts)
Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2016 11:57:16 -0700
Subject: [pct-l] New PCT Speed Record
Message-ID: <9l3c6gnurtm50os0eo84fbft.1474484236841@email.android.com>

I am working at setting a record for taking the longest time to complete the trail as a set of sections and segments. The first segment I did was from the ranch just up from Florence Lake to Evolution Lake in 1952. I still have a little less than 15 miles to go.?
? ? ?Mataguay Connector?


Sent from my Galaxy Tab? A
-------- Original message --------From: Tim Crum <4140lcl at gmail.com> Date: 9/2/16  9:10 AM  (GMT-08:00) To: Reinhold Metzger <reinholdmetzger at cox.net> Cc: PCT <pct-l at backcountry.net>, Hiker97 at aol.com Subject: Re: [pct-l] New PCT Speed Record 
Is anybody famous for just poking along the trail and enjoying it? Not
worrying about how fast they can do the trip, how many miles they can do in
one day, how little weight they can carry, etc.?
It's a camping trip. Enjoy the walk!

On Thu, Sep 1, 2016 at 10:15 AM, Reinhold Metzger <reinholdmetzger at cox.net>
wrote:

> Hi gang,
>
> Trouble is back in town.....the girls are dancing in the streets the guys
> are gnashing
>
> their teeth.
>
> Like some of you PCT fanatics probably already know, a 26 year old Belgian
> Dentist
>
> marathon runner by the name Karel Sabbe, who in the last 2 years has run
> close to
>
> 8,000 KM in 31 countries,? set a new PCT speed record of 52 days, 8 hrs,
> 25 minutes.
>
> It should be noted that Karel did it as a marathon runner, with a support
> team, VS
>
> traditional backpacking where you carry all your gear and food, etc.
>
> Hats of to Karel, the new PCT sped record holder and his accomplishment.
>
> All records, sooner or later get broken.
>
> However, in my book, my buddy Scott Williamson still is, and probably
> always will be
>
> the undeniable, the unquestionable, and indisputable "King of the PCT" and
> his PCT
>
> accomplishments probably will never be equaled.
>
> "LONG LIVE THE KING" and may you have many offsprings to carry on your
> legacy.
>
> And also long live Switchback, the undeniable, the unquestionable, and
> indisputable
>
> "Rascal" of the PCT...,aka Switchback the trail pirate, who's mischief of
> raiding and
>
> plundering innocent hikers also will never be equaled.
>
> I will not get into what I am famous for.
>
> You can ask...YOGI...she knows.
>
> JMT Reinhold
>
>
>
>
> ---
> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
> https://www.avast.com/antivirus
>
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From hiker97 at aol.com  Wed Sep 21 20:56:43 2016
From: hiker97 at aol.com (hiker97 at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2016 21:56:43 -0400
Subject: [pct-l] New PCT Speed Record
In-Reply-To: <9l3c6gnurtm50os0eo84fbft.1474484236841@email.android.com>
References: <9l3c6gnurtm50os0eo84fbft.1474484236841@email.android.com>
Message-ID: <1574f9bf29b-6a8-7ad1@webprd-a101.mail.aol.com>


Mataguay Connector wrote:  I am working at setting a record for taking the longest time to complete the trail as a set of sections and segments. The first segment I did was from the ranch just up from Florence Lake to Evolution Lake in 1952. I still have a little less than 15 miles to go. 


Switchback replies:  Congratulations!  I am planning the Most Supported PCT record.  Wranglers will cook all my meals and set up my hammock camp each night.  I will say around other hikers things like:
"Gee, I can't eat another piece of hot pizza.  Now we will have to carry it out as garbage."
"Wow, I am so warm in this hammock with these Enlightened Equipment sleeping quilts.  It sure is cold out there for those pilgrim backpackers over there in their ground tents."
"I think I will have fresh Black Diamond hot buttered popcorn tonight for a snack."
"Wow, it looks like a big rain front is moving in for the next several days.  I guess I will ride until the weather passes.  And then continue this vacation walk."
"Seems like this walk is too easy.  I think I will yo-yo the trail."

From hiker97 at aol.com  Sat Sep 24 11:53:39 2016
From: hiker97 at aol.com (hiker97 at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 24 Sep 2016 12:53:39 -0400
Subject: [pct-l] Old Hiker and Time
Message-ID: <1575d1dd7a8-212d-3645@webprd-a101.mail.aol.com>


PCT Grizzly had been holding offgetting a hearing aid.  He just did notthink he needed one, but his wife TrailDust, finally convinced him.  He went into the trailtown and got fittedwith a new $4000 deluxe hearing aid. Finally, the device arrived and he headed out the cabin pick it up atthe doctor?s office.
 
After getting it installed he headedover to the trailtown saloon for a cold one with his trail bros.  ?Say, I just got my new hearing aid.  It is state of the art and super-duper.  It cost me 4 grand.?
 
One of his bros asked, ?Really?  That is great.  What kind is it??
 
Grizzly, ?It is twelve thirty."

From reinholdmetzger at cox.net  Sun Sep 25 01:26:40 2016
From: reinholdmetzger at cox.net (Reinhold Metzger)
Date: Sat, 24 Sep 2016 23:26:40 -0700
Subject: [pct-l] "MY WAY".....The only way to thru the PCT.
Message-ID: <db0d7257-6aa1-21b3-fda7-e24799555543@cox.net>

Switchback,
You are an absolute "AMATEUR" when it comes to a "Most Supported" PCT-thru.

"MY WAY"...."THE JMT REINHOLD WAY" aka "THE CLEOPATRA WAY" is the only way
to thru the PCT the most supported way in style and comfort.."ON A FLOAT",
carried by four big, big sturdy float carriers like Deems, Monte Dodge,
Ned and Brick, a sturdy hiker babe like Yogi to prepare my gourmet meals
and wipe the sweat of my brows, two fan girls, one on each side of the
float, preferable good looking hiker babes like L-Rod & Donna, fanning me
with palm fans to keep me cool and keep the flies and mosquitoes away and
trumped blowers leading the way to alert the "hiker trash" to step aside
and bow as my float goes by.
Of course I will be consuming vast quantities of gourmet food, drinking
the best of wine and munching grapes as my float keeps moving on down the
trail.
If Switchback bows as my float goes by, I may toss him some grapes.
BTW Switchback, do you like red grapes or white grapes?

I am so exited about this I can barely wait for the KO.

I just love "ROUGHING" it in the wilderness.

JMT Reinhold
Your hard to the core trail companion
.....................................
  
41401cl wrote:
Is anybody famous for just poking along the trail and enjoying it?
Not worrying about how fast they can do the trip, how many miles they can
do in one day, how little weight they can carry, etc.?
It's a camping trip.
Enjoy the walk!
  ------------------------------------------------------------
Switchback the Trail Pirate replies:
Yes, I plan on doing the PCT Most Supported record as soon as someone donates
the money...maybe about $50,000.
I will have lama and other hoof support the whole way.
I will carry my Zpack Arc Blast pack, but only with personal snacks, etc.
I figure about 5 pounds at the most.  On the trail each night I will have
my hammock readied and food prepared by wranglers.
My trail town stays will include the finest accommodations, pedicures,
spas, and dinners with wine.
Should be a super vacation trip with minimal effort on my part.
I will laugh at the other backpackers on the trail struggling everyday
against Mother Nature and eating backpacker foods.
I will welcome bad weather and the increased suffering of others on the trail.
I will enjoy the walk!



---
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From hiker97 at aol.com  Sun Sep 25 01:48:26 2016
From: hiker97 at aol.com (hiker97 at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 25 Sep 2016 02:48:26 -0400
Subject: [pct-l] "MY WAY".....The only way to thru the PCT.
Message-ID: <157601a1cf4-212d-4eab@webprd-a101.mail.aol.com>


JMT Snow Bunny Reinhold writes:  You are an absolute "AMATEUR" when it comes to a "Most Supported" PCT-thru."MY WAY"...."THE JMT REINHOLD WAY" aka "THE CLEOPATRA WAY" is the only wayto thru the PCT the most supported way in style and comfort.."ON A FLOAT",carried by four big, big sturdy float carriers like Deems, Monte Dodge, Ned and Brick, a sturdy hiker babe like Yogi to prepare my gourmet mealsand wipe the sweat of my brows, two fan girls, one on each side of the float, preferable good looking hiker babes like L-Rod & Donna, fanning me with palm fans to keep me cool and keep the flies and mosquitoes away and trumped blowers leading the way to alert the "hiker trash" to step aside and bow as my float goes by.Of course I will be consuming vast quantities of gourmet food, drinkingthe best of wine and munching grapes as my float keeps moving on down thetrail.If Switchback bows as my float goes by, I may toss him some grapes.BTW Switchback, do you like red grapes or white grapes?I am so exited about this I can barely wait for the KO.I just love "ROUGHING" it in the wilderness.
Switchback the Trail Pirate replies: Yes, a float is the ultimate and I bow to my betters.  I am now waiting for my new Enlightened Equipment quilt to arrive (in digital camo color) for my hammock camping expeditions.  About 40 minutes from my house at 7,000 feet there is a year around campground with lots of sites.  I plan to go up there regularly, even in winter to do some hanging.  I still hope to get to Lyell Canyon up in Yosemite this season for some hammock camping.  You only have to walk 4 miles in from Tuolumne Meadows to start hanging.   
 


	
		
												
		
			
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From bill.batchelor at kedyl.com  Sun Sep 25 10:11:13 2016
From: bill.batchelor at kedyl.com (Bill Batchelor)
Date: Sun, 25 Sep 2016 08:11:13 -0700
Subject: [pct-l] Transport from Kelso Valley Road
Message-ID: <CAB3QKDT_Mov0UnMBMiU3HG0uFOSo1CSO9Cyye4D53-TcPDwixw@mail.gmail.com>

Does anyone know if there is a trail angle or "pay for ride" person that is
in the Walker Pass / Onyx / Lake Isabella area?  (35 miles south of Walker
Pass)?

I am looking for someone to follow us to Kelso Valley Road where we will
leave a car and then drive us over to Walker Pass.

Thanks,
You can post here - or if you don't want someone's contact info broadcast,
email me directly.

Thanks,
Pink Gumby

--

From reinholdmetzger at cox.net  Sun Sep 25 11:43:20 2016
From: reinholdmetzger at cox.net (Reinhold Metzger)
Date: Sun, 25 Sep 2016 09:43:20 -0700
Subject: [pct-l] Weather watch now,Class of '17
Message-ID: <36318261-db56-eacd-4213-3ce94350bb11@cox.net>

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ned,
You are absolutely correct.
Does the window close in October?....of course not.
But the potential for snow, especially light snow, increases at high
elevations after September and if a hiker is anticipating snow free
conditions and is not prepared for snow it can make his journey less
than pleasant if he encounters snow and I like to make my backpacking
adventures pleasant.

It may rain at 8,000 feet and be freezing rain or snow at 12,000 feet.
I have hiked the Sierra extensively since 1968 and have encountered
snow in the middle of summer on more than one occasion.

About 10 years ago on one of my JMT hikes, between Guitar Lake and
Whitney, my home made tenant collapsed on me in the middle of the night
under the weight of wet snow in late August or early September.
It snowed all night and needless to say I was not a happy camper.
It rained at lower elevations but snowed at the high elevation where
I camped that night.

I learned my lesson that night, about 10 years ago, that is why I like
to get through the Sierra before October.

Of course, like you say, the Sierra window is open past September but
the hiker needs to be aware and prepared for the potential of freezing
rain and snow at high elevations.

JMT Reinhold
Your happy trail companion
.....................................
  
Ned wrote:
Thanks, Reinhold, for all your support and encouragement over the years!

I stretch the time frame to mid-November because most of the storms that hit
the Sierra early, September thru November, are usually less than a foot in
quantity and melt off within a day or so of the sun coming out. This is not
based on any statistics, but rather my own on-trail experience during those
months. However, you'll see below, that I have revised my recommended time
frames. [Dittli, would you concur?]

Let's look at the SoBo thru hike time window respective of powder snow
"bookends,"

At the Pacific Northwest end...

Light Winter:  consider a mid-June start
Average Winter:  consider a July 4th start (based on the recommendations by
locals)
Heavy Winter:  consider an August 1st start

At the Sierra end...
(again, these dates are based on living in the Sierra for the past 30 years.
A statistician can refine this...)

Early Winter:  ski areas open on Thanksgiving
Average Winter:  ski areas open for Christmas
Late Winter:  ski areas make snow for Christmas and pray for snow in January

People need to realize that storms track three ways on the coast,
- hit to the north, Portland and Seattle, and miss the Sierra
- hit both the north and south, tracking down the coast on its way east
- hit the south and miss the north.

Therefore, one end is usually hit harder than the other. So, it becomes a
gamble what you'll get when doing your planning months ahead of a hike!
Start dates SoBo have to be flexible and hikers have to be patient for safe
trail conditions. The longer you wait to start, the more consolidated will
be the snow and with wisdom, the safer you may be.

So, let's put together the 9 possibilities:
(Premise: 1 month for Washington, 1 month for Oregon, 1 month for NorCal,
and then they are in the Sierra at Donner)

1. PNW post-average winter to Sierra average winter start:
- July 4th to November 1st  (5 months of trail time)
- Meaning:  hikers start on steep, slippery, consolidated snow and go
through the Sierra under a moderate threat of light snow.

2. PNW post-average winter to Sierra late winter start:
- July 4th to mid-November (4.5 months)
- Meaning: hikers start on steep, slippery, consolidated snow and go through
the Sierra under a light-moderate threat of light snow.

3. PNW post-average winter to Sierra early winter start:
- July 4th to mid-October (3.5 months)
- Meaning: hikers start on steep, slippery, consolidated snow and go through
the Sierra under a moderate threat of light/heavy snow.

4. PNW post-light winter to Sierra late winter start:
- Mid-June to mid-November (5 months)
- Meaning: hikers will start on a thinner snowpack of steep, slippery snow
and go through the Sierra under a mild threat of light snow.

5 & 6

7. PNW post-heavy winter to Sierra early winter start:
- August 1st to mid-October (2.5 months)
- Meaning: hikers will start on steep, slippery consolidated snow and have a
moderate threat of snow in the northern Sierra and a pretty good chance of
deeper powder snow in the higher Sierra that may stop them in their tracks.

8 & 9

I'm not going to extrapolate all of them. You can see where I'm going. SoBo
hikers will have to do their best with the hiking season they get, being
aware of what can happen weather-wise in fall season Sierra.


Ned Tibbits, Director
Mountain Education, Inc.
ned at mountaineducation.org 
<http://mailman.backcountry.net/mailman/listinfo/pct-l>  

......................................................


Listen to what Ned is saying gang,....Ned knows what he is talking about.

He is the expert when it comes to hiking in snow.

The only thing I would like to point out is that I always prefer and

recommend getting through the Sierra by the end of September.

The Sierra, because of its elevation, is a different kind of a beast.

It can snow in the Sierra at any time of the year, even in the middle

of summer...I have gotten snowed on in the Sierra in the middle of

the summer on more than one occasion.

However, after September, the chance of new snow in the Sierra

increases drastically, changes the whole equation, and you better be

prepared for serious snow hiking.

Scott Williamson, with 14 PCT thru-hikes (16 counting section hikes),

including 2 PCT yo-yo thru-hikes, and 3 prior PCT speed records, the

undeniable, unquestionable, indisputable "KING" of the PCT had to

bail out and abandon 2 other yo-yo attempts, in prior years, because

he got back  to the Sierra to late, after it already started snowing, on

his way back to the Mexican border.

Like I said, the equation changes dramatically ones it starts snowing

in the Sierra....that is why I prefer to get through the Sierra before

October.

JMT Reinhold

............................................................


Class of '17!

I want you to pay attention to the weather this September-November because,
for the majority of you, these are the months in which you'll be ending your
thru hikes next year. Watch, now, to be ready, then.

Doesn't matter whether you are planning on going NoBo or SoBo, watch how the
weather comes in this fall and how the high country along the PCT
transitions to winter. What you see this year, you may experience next year.
(Of course, this is not always true, but be aware, nonetheless, to help make
your planning decisions).

The points are,
- NoBo: Get to Manning by mid-September and
- SoBo: Get through the Sierra by mid-November

to avoid cold, wet, and maybe deep powder snow keeping you from your dream
of completing a thru hike of the Pacific Crest Trail.

The premise is this,
- Fall and winter weather bring cold, lots of damp, and maybe freezing rain
or powder snow. The human body does not do well in this environment without
help and that needs to be anticipated by having an awareness of it. If you
spend too much time while NoBo along the trail in the south and find
yourself way behind schedule, these conditions can and have stopped many a
thru hiker just shy of their goal after working towards it for months.

If you want a fun and successful thru hike, among many things, know what
you're up against and prepare for them, know your self and why you're there,
practice the skills required to overcome expected adversity and challenge
(personal/internal and environmental/external), and take lots of
progressively longer hikes, ending with one that is as exposed as the PCT
and long enough to require a resupply (3 weeks).

You will be hearing more advice from me as your start dates get nearer, as I
want all of you to have the fun and safe life-changing wilderness journeys
you hope for, but those come with planning grounded in reality! I will be
talking more about the "Realities of the Trail" over the next few months.

Ned Tibbits, Director
Mountain Education, Inc.




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From reinholdmetzger at cox.net  Sat Sep 24 17:44:13 2016
From: reinholdmetzger at cox.net (Reinhold Metzger)
Date: Sat, 24 Sep 2016 15:44:13 -0700
Subject: [pct-l] "MY WAY".....The one and only way to thru the PCT
Message-ID: <0d0d1ad3-41a6-f8e0-9bb1-0ddf37706c11@cox.net>

Switchback,
You are an absolute "AMATEUR" when it comes to a "Most Supported" PCT-thru.

"MY WAY"...."THE JMT REINHOLD WAY" aka "THE CLEOPATRA WAY" is the only way
to thru the PCT the most supported way in style and comfort.."ON A FLOAT",
carried by four big, big sturdy float carriers like Deems, Monte Dodge,
Ned and Brick, a sturdy hiker babe like Yogi to prepare my gourmet meals
and wipe the sweat of my brows, two fan girls, one on each side of the
float, preferable good looking hiker babes like L-Rod & Donna, fanning me
with palm fans to keep me cool and keep the flies and mosquitoes away and
trumped blowers leading the way to alert the "hiker trash" to step aside
and bow as my float goes by.
Of course I will be consuming vast quantities of gourmet food, drinking
the best of wine and munching grapes as my float keeps moving on down the
trail.
If Switchback bows as my float goes by, I may toss him some grapes.
BTW Switchback, do you like red grapes or white grapes?

I am so exited about this I can barely wait for the KO.

I just love "ROUGHING" it in the wilderness.

JMT Reinhold
Your hard to the core trail companion
.....................................
  
41401cl wrote:
Is anybody famous for just poking along the trail and enjoying it?
Not worrying about how fast they can do the trip, how many miles they can
do in one day, how little weight they can carry, etc.?
It's a camping trip.
Enjoy the walk!
  ------------------------------------------------------------
Switchback the Trail Pirate replies:
Yes, I plan on doing the PCT Most Supported record as soon as someone donates
the money...maybe about $50,000.
I will have lama and other hoof support the whole way.
I will carry my Zpack Arc Blast pack, but only with personal snacks, etc.
I figure about 5 pounds at the most.  On the trail each night I will have
my hammock readied and food prepared by wranglers.
My trail town stays will include the finest accommodations, pedicures,
spas, and dinners with wine.
Should be a super vacation trip with minimal effort on my part.
I will laugh at the other backpackers on the trail struggling everyday
against Mother Nature and eating backpacker foods.
I will welcome bad weather and the increased suffering of others on the trail.
I will enjoy the walk!




---
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From robert.riess at cox.net  Tue Sep 27 17:19:21 2016
From: robert.riess at cox.net (Robert E. Riess)
Date: Tue, 27 Sep 2016 15:19:21 -0700
Subject: [pct-l] Permits 2017
Message-ID: <E08EF1266D2B42569CA3874B5746781D@RobertERiessPC>

Congratulations to the Class of 2016, who were lucky enough to draw a PCTA Long Distance Permit starting at the border, and who had no ADZPCTKO to inspire and enlighten them. I am saddened by what I hope is a temporary halt to the world-class hiking event which for 17 great years gave so much to so many, provided by so few, and who did it so very, very well. I am thankful for the opportunity to have partaken.   



Certainly, a 2016 PCT through hike is an accomplishment of great pride and satisfaction.  Some were not so fortunate.  Some from overseas could not get a permit to conform with their travel arrangements and just gave up on their goal of hiking the PCT in 2016.  At least one hiker known to me had to cancel his airline ticket and rebook to conform with his PCTA permit at an additional cost of over $1000.  Some were scared to death of being stopped by the US Forest Service because their only chance to hike did not conform with the date of their PCTA Long Distance Permit.  They were in genuine fear of having their passports confiscated for ?illegal hiking.? Many US and foreign hikers had permits which were at variance with the actual dates of their starts, and many more hiked without a permit of any kind. 



In 2015 and 2016, the PCTA, on its own authority as trail manager, established a daily quota of 50 Long Distance Permits starting at the border during the height of through-hiker season.  I was told by Beth Boyst, the PCT Trail Manager for the US Forest Service, that the limit of 50 permits per day was her idea, stating also that she arrived at the decision based upon exhaustive research into the increase in hiker numbers experienced during the years 2012-2014, and their attendant impact on the first 100 miles of the PCT.   This confused me in that one agency limited the number of permits and another took credit for the decision, so on April 14 of this year, I submitted a Freedom of Information Act request asking for all documentation discussing or supporting the 50 permit daily limit.  The US Forest Service reply to my FOIA request providing 4 pages of responsive documents was received on July 7.  I will provide my original FOIA request and the Forest Service?s response by email to anyone who requests them.  I have read these documents many times, and I have found no basis whatsoever for limiting daily hiking permits.  This is the official response of the government of the United States to a valid request for information.  By law, it is exhaustive and complete.  There is no more information to consider.  No anecdotes, no feelings, no opinions, no guesses.   



So, with the 2016 PCT through hiking season drawing to a close, there will be many hikers with recent experiences on the trail who may be willing to share their experiences and offer their opinions regarding the necessity and efficacy of the 2015-2016 permit limitations.  IMO, this is necessary if the PCT hiking community wants to influence the 2017 hiking season on the PCT, either in favor of permit limitations, or opposed to them.  You should not expect to be asked for your experiences and opinions by the US Forest Service or the PCTA.  Some of us recall how the permit limitations were implemented for the past 2 years.  There was no public discussion, there was no opportunity for hikers to state their positions, and there was no advance notice.  Hikers first became aware of the 50 permit per day limitation simultaneously with the opening of the issuance of permits by the PCTA.  There is every indication there will be more of the same in 2017.  Congratulations to the Class of 2016.  Good Luck to the Class of 2017.   BR

From moonbeams13 at gmail.com  Tue Sep 27 17:39:13 2016
From: moonbeams13 at gmail.com (Cody B)
Date: Tue, 27 Sep 2016 17:39:13 -0500
Subject: [pct-l] Permits 2017
In-Reply-To: <E08EF1266D2B42569CA3874B5746781D@RobertERiessPC>
References: <E08EF1266D2B42569CA3874B5746781D@RobertERiessPC>
Message-ID: <CAO-n75wC7E5FW+S=TeU3OViOm2eydRUmUgfV2q6e2dvepKjqxQ@mail.gmail.com>

BR,

The permit limits are in place to protect the fragile environments and
ecosystems that the Pacific Crest Trail passes through from overuse by
hikers. They are there for a very good reason and it is indeed backed by
research on environmental impact. The first several hundred miles are
particularly vulnerable as there are very limited water resources and many
of them cannot support hundreds of hikers draining them in addition to
supplying the necessary water for the native plants and animals.

It is possible to hike the PCT legally without a long-distance permit
published by the PCTA, but that does require seeking out each permit
individually and doing the research on your own. The permit issued by the
PCTA is actually a collection of permits by the National Parks Service,
State Parks Systems, Forest Service, and others that allows you to pass
through the entire trail corridor without seeking out each necessary permit
individually. It is a service provided to us and there is a limit on that
service so that the trail is still there, beautiful, and most importantly,
usable for years to come.

I saw a lot of disregard for permits on the trail this summer and it
concerns me. People ranted about "the government trying to control their
rights saying when they can or can't hike" (I would like to note that the
PCTA is not a government organization) while not paying any regard to the
reason those permits are there.

PLEASE be conscientious about this. If we aim to be stewards of the
environment and participate in LNT practices then paying mind to the permit
system and the permit limits is extremely important. They are not there to
limit us. They are there to protect us and the beauty we love to indulge
ourselves in.

Passionately,

Wikipedia

On Tue, Sep 27, 2016 at 5:19 PM, Robert E. Riess <robert.riess at cox.net>
wrote:

> Congratulations to the Class of 2016, who were lucky enough to draw a PCTA
> Long Distance Permit starting at the border, and who had no ADZPCTKO to
> inspire and enlighten them. I am saddened by what I hope is a temporary
> halt to the world-class hiking event which for 17 great years gave so much
> to so many, provided by so few, and who did it so very, very well. I am
> thankful for the opportunity to have partaken.
>
>
>
> Certainly, a 2016 PCT through hike is an accomplishment of great pride and
> satisfaction.  Some were not so fortunate.  Some from overseas could not
> get a permit to conform with their travel arrangements and just gave up on
> their goal of hiking the PCT in 2016.  At least one hiker known to me had
> to cancel his airline ticket and rebook to conform with his PCTA permit at
> an additional cost of over $1000.  Some were scared to death of being
> stopped by the US Forest Service because their only chance to hike did not
> conform with the date of their PCTA Long Distance Permit.  They were in
> genuine fear of having their passports confiscated for ?illegal hiking.?
> Many US and foreign hikers had permits which were at variance with the
> actual dates of their starts, and many more hiked without a permit of any
> kind.
>
>
>
> In 2015 and 2016, the PCTA, on its own authority as trail manager,
> established a daily quota of 50 Long Distance Permits starting at the
> border during the height of through-hiker season.  I was told by Beth
> Boyst, the PCT Trail Manager for the US Forest Service, that the limit of
> 50 permits per day was her idea, stating also that she arrived at the
> decision based upon exhaustive research into the increase in hiker numbers
> experienced during the years 2012-2014, and their attendant impact on the
> first 100 miles of the PCT.   This confused me in that one agency limited
> the number of permits and another took credit for the decision, so on April
> 14 of this year, I submitted a Freedom of Information Act request asking
> for all documentation discussing or supporting the 50 permit daily limit.
> The US Forest Service reply to my FOIA request providing 4 pages of
> responsive documents was received on July 7.  I will provide my original
> FOIA request and the Forest Service?s response by email to anyone who
> requests them.  I have read these documents many times, and I have found no
> basis whatsoever for limiting daily hiking permits.  This is the official
> response of the government of the United States to a valid request for
> information.  By law, it is exhaustive and complete.  There is no more
> information to consider.  No anecdotes, no feelings, no opinions, no
> guesses.
>
>
>
> So, with the 2016 PCT through hiking season drawing to a close, there will
> be many hikers with recent experiences on the trail who may be willing to
> share their experiences and offer their opinions regarding the necessity
> and efficacy of the 2015-2016 permit limitations.  IMO, this is necessary
> if the PCT hiking community wants to influence the 2017 hiking season on
> the PCT, either in favor of permit limitations, or opposed to them.  You
> should not expect to be asked for your experiences and opinions by the US
> Forest Service or the PCTA.  Some of us recall how the permit limitations
> were implemented for the past 2 years.  There was no public discussion,
> there was no opportunity for hikers to state their positions, and there was
> no advance notice.  Hikers first became aware of the 50 permit per day
> limitation simultaneously with the opening of the issuance of permits by
> the PCTA.  There is every indication there will be more of the same in
> 2017.  Congratulations to the Class of 2016.  Good Luck to the Class of
> 2017.   BR
> _______________________________________________
> Pct-L mailing list
> Pct-L at backcountry.net
> To unsubscribe, or change options visit:
> http://mailman.backcountry.net/mailman/listinfo/pct-l
>
> List Archives:
> http://mailman.backcountry.net/pipermail/pct-l/
> All content is copyrighted by the respective authors.
> Reproduction is prohibited without express permission.




-- 
Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter
and those who matter don't mind. ~Dr. Seuss

From brick at brickrobbins.com  Tue Sep 27 19:02:13 2016
From: brick at brickrobbins.com (Brick Robbins)
Date: Tue, 27 Sep 2016 17:02:13 -0700
Subject: [pct-l] Permits 2017
In-Reply-To: <CAO-n75wC7E5FW+S=TeU3OViOm2eydRUmUgfV2q6e2dvepKjqxQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <E08EF1266D2B42569CA3874B5746781D@RobertERiessPC>
 <CAO-n75wC7E5FW+S=TeU3OViOm2eydRUmUgfV2q6e2dvepKjqxQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALV1Nz=nCrZmxJFR_bMdKyFeNdgaAjOupAZD9N8wYvZ5un+KhQ@mail.gmail.com>

A thru hiker permit is not required to thru hike the PCT.

I wrote about his last season
http://mailman.backcountry.net/pipermail/pct-l/2016-March/078789.html

The whole "permit quota" was devised to take advantage of the
"misunderstanding" that a thru hiker permit is required,  in order to
save the PCT from the "Wild Effect." There is no legal basis for it,
nor does there need to be, because there is no legal requirement to
actually have the permit.

> Cody B <moonbeams13 at gmail.com> wrote:
> It is possible to hike the PCT legally without a long-distance permit
> published by the PCTA, but that does require seeking out each permit
> individually and doing the research on your own.

There really aren't that many areas, except for the Sierra, that
require permits. Of those there are only a few that have quotas.

It is not even required to get "each permit" on your own, as a permit
issued by one agency is good for traveling through land managed by
other agencies to the end of your trip. For example, a NPS permit for
hiking the John Muir Trail covers the USFS lands. One can get a
wilderness permit from the USFS starting at Kennedy Meadows (south)
that is good to the OR/CA border. Or one can even get a "section hiker
permit" from the PCTA from KM(s) to Canada, and miss the phony "permit
quota" at Mexico

You must have permits for the areas that require them. They are not
difficult to get and generally are free, and remember, you only need
one permit from your point of entry to your destination.

>The first several hundred miles are
> particularly vulnerable as there are very limited water resources and many
> of them cannot support hundreds of hikers draining them in addition to
> supplying the necessary water for the native plants and animals.

I call bullshit on this. There are only two areas that require permits in SoCal

1)Cleveland/Descanso disctrict requires permit for dispersed camping,
which they give to anyone who asks. Call 619-445-6235 to get one

2)Mt San Jacinto, the wilderness areas there require permits for
overnight or day use. The current fire re-route makes most of this
area moot, since you are on roads. Google can give you more
information.

There is NO PERMIT requirement to protect "limited water resources" in
the SoCal section. NONE.

I have no doubt that the thru hiker permit quota was created with good
intentions, but it has no legal basis, and really is nothing but a con
job.

Yes we need to protect the PCT, but overall, the impact of thru hikers
is one of the smaller problems - except for town infrastructure.

And no I don't "hate the PCT" as some people will write. I just want
to see public resources managed in a legal and transparent way.

HYOY, YMMV

From richardb10 at live.com  Tue Sep 27 23:44:48 2016
From: richardb10 at live.com (Richard Brinkman)
Date: Wed, 28 Sep 2016 04:44:48 +0000
Subject: [pct-l] Permits 2017
In-Reply-To: <CAO-n75wC7E5FW+S=TeU3OViOm2eydRUmUgfV2q6e2dvepKjqxQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <E08EF1266D2B42569CA3874B5746781D@RobertERiessPC>
 <CAO-n75wC7E5FW+S=TeU3OViOm2eydRUmUgfV2q6e2dvepKjqxQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <BN6PR16MB14411C3D048C09AD2B2D063DA7CF0@BN6PR16MB1441.namprd16.prod.outlook.com>

In Yosemite, I was asked by a Ranger to show my PCT thru-hiker permit.  Thank goodness I had it, albeit folded in a ziplock.

Roadwalker, '15

-----Original Message-----
From: Pct-L [mailto:pct-l-bounces at backcountry.net] On Behalf Of Cody B
Sent: Tuesday, September 27, 2016 3:39 PM
To: Robert E. Riess
Cc: PCT-L
Subject: Re: [pct-l] Permits 2017

BR,

The permit limits are in place to protect the fragile environments and ecosystems that the Pacific Crest Trail passes through from overuse by hikers. They are there for a very good reason and it is indeed backed by research on environmental impact. The first several hundred miles are particularly vulnerable as there are very limited water resources and many of them cannot support hundreds of hikers draining them in addition to supplying the necessary water for the native plants and animals.

It is possible to hike the PCT legally without a long-distance permit published by the PCTA, but that does require seeking out each permit individually and doing the research on your own. The permit issued by the PCTA is actually a collection of permits by the National Parks Service, State Parks Systems, Forest Service, and others that allows you to pass through the entire trail corridor without seeking out each necessary permit individually. It is a service provided to us and there is a limit on that service so that the trail is still there, beautiful, and most importantly, usable for years to come.

I saw a lot of disregard for permits on the trail this summer and it concerns me. People ranted about "the government trying to control their rights saying when they can or can't hike" (I would like to note that the PCTA is not a government organization) while not paying any regard to the reason those permits are there.

PLEASE be conscientious about this. If we aim to be stewards of the environment and participate in LNT practices then paying mind to the permit system and the permit limits is extremely important. They are not there to limit us. They are there to protect us and the beauty we love to indulge ourselves in.

Passionately,

Wikipedia

On Tue, Sep 27, 2016 at 5:19 PM, Robert E. Riess <robert.riess at cox.net>
wrote:

> Congratulations to the Class of 2016, who were lucky enough to draw a 
> PCTA Long Distance Permit starting at the border, and who had no 
> ADZPCTKO to inspire and enlighten them. I am saddened by what I hope 
> is a temporary halt to the world-class hiking event which for 17 great 
> years gave so much to so many, provided by so few, and who did it so 
> very, very well. I am thankful for the opportunity to have partaken.
>
>
>
> Certainly, a 2016 PCT through hike is an accomplishment of great pride 
> and satisfaction.  Some were not so fortunate.  Some from overseas 
> could not get a permit to conform with their travel arrangements and 
> just gave up on their goal of hiking the PCT in 2016.  At least one 
> hiker known to me had to cancel his airline ticket and rebook to 
> conform with his PCTA permit at an additional cost of over $1000.  
> Some were scared to death of being stopped by the US Forest Service 
> because their only chance to hike did not conform with the date of 
> their PCTA Long Distance Permit.  They were in genuine fear of having their passports confiscated for ?illegal hiking.?
> Many US and foreign hikers had permits which were at variance with the 
> actual dates of their starts, and many more hiked without a permit of 
> any kind.
>
>
>
> In 2015 and 2016, the PCTA, on its own authority as trail manager, 
> established a daily quota of 50 Long Distance Permits starting at the 
> border during the height of through-hiker season.  I was told by Beth 
> Boyst, the PCT Trail Manager for the US Forest Service, that the limit 
> of
> 50 permits per day was her idea, stating also that she arrived at the 
> decision based upon exhaustive research into the increase in hiker 
> numbers experienced during the years 2012-2014, and their attendant impact on the
> first 100 miles of the PCT.   This confused me in that one agency limited
> the number of permits and another took credit for the decision, so on 
> April
> 14 of this year, I submitted a Freedom of Information Act request 
> asking for all documentation discussing or supporting the 50 permit daily limit.
> The US Forest Service reply to my FOIA request providing 4 pages of 
> responsive documents was received on July 7.  I will provide my 
> original FOIA request and the Forest Service?s response by email to 
> anyone who requests them.  I have read these documents many times, and 
> I have found no basis whatsoever for limiting daily hiking permits.  
> This is the official response of the government of the United States 
> to a valid request for information.  By law, it is exhaustive and 
> complete.  There is no more information to consider.  No anecdotes, no 
> feelings, no opinions, no guesses.
>
>
>
> So, with the 2016 PCT through hiking season drawing to a close, there 
> will be many hikers with recent experiences on the trail who may be 
> willing to share their experiences and offer their opinions regarding 
> the necessity and efficacy of the 2015-2016 permit limitations.  IMO, 
> this is necessary if the PCT hiking community wants to influence the 
> 2017 hiking season on the PCT, either in favor of permit limitations, 
> or opposed to them.  You should not expect to be asked for your 
> experiences and opinions by the US Forest Service or the PCTA.  Some 
> of us recall how the permit limitations were implemented for the past 
> 2 years.  There was no public discussion, there was no opportunity for 
> hikers to state their positions, and there was no advance notice.  
> Hikers first became aware of the 50 permit per day limitation 
> simultaneously with the opening of the issuance of permits by the 
> PCTA.  There is every indication there will be more of the same in 2017.  Congratulations to the Class of 2016.  Good Luck to the Class of
> 2017.   BR
> _______________________________________________
> Pct-L mailing list
> Pct-L at backcountry.net
> To unsubscribe, or change options visit:
> http://mailman.backcountry.net/mailman/listinfo/pct-l
>
> List Archives:
> http://mailman.backcountry.net/pipermail/pct-l/
> All content is copyrighted by the respective authors.
> Reproduction is prohibited without express permission.




--
Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind. ~Dr. Seuss _______________________________________________
Pct-L mailing list
Pct-L at backcountry.net
To unsubscribe, or change options visit:
http://mailman.backcountry.net/mailman/listinfo/pct-l

List Archives:
http://mailman.backcountry.net/pipermail/pct-l/
All content is copyrighted by the respective authors.
Reproduction is prohibited without express permission.


From moonbeams13 at gmail.com  Wed Sep 28 01:01:19 2016
From: moonbeams13 at gmail.com (Cody B)
Date: Wed, 28 Sep 2016 01:01:19 -0500
Subject: [pct-l] Permits 2017
In-Reply-To: <BN6PR16MB14411C3D048C09AD2B2D063DA7CF0@BN6PR16MB1441.namprd16.prod.outlook.com>
References: <E08EF1266D2B42569CA3874B5746781D@RobertERiessPC>
 <CAO-n75wC7E5FW+S=TeU3OViOm2eydRUmUgfV2q6e2dvepKjqxQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <BN6PR16MB14411C3D048C09AD2B2D063DA7CF0@BN6PR16MB1441.namprd16.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <CAO-n75wiomhqsRCm7QX5DEA66kaKLCV55UgU-zTjxQAVXsUUyg@mail.gmail.com>

Richard -

Permits are required in Yosemite, but not necessarily PCT permits. You
could have had a wilderness permit specifically for that are issued by the
NPS instead.

Wikipedia

On Tue, Sep 27, 2016 at 11:44 PM, Richard Brinkman <richardb10 at live.com>
wrote:

> In Yosemite, I was asked by a Ranger to show my PCT thru-hiker permit.
> Thank goodness I had it, albeit folded in a ziplock.
>
> Roadwalker, '15
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Pct-L [mailto:pct-l-bounces at backcountry.net] On Behalf Of Cody B
> Sent: Tuesday, September 27, 2016 3:39 PM
> To: Robert E. Riess
> Cc: PCT-L
> Subject: Re: [pct-l] Permits 2017
>
> BR,
>
> The permit limits are in place to protect the fragile environments and
> ecosystems that the Pacific Crest Trail passes through from overuse by
> hikers. They are there for a very good reason and it is indeed backed by
> research on environmental impact. The first several hundred miles are
> particularly vulnerable as there are very limited water resources and many
> of them cannot support hundreds of hikers draining them in addition to
> supplying the necessary water for the native plants and animals.
>
> It is possible to hike the PCT legally without a long-distance permit
> published by the PCTA, but that does require seeking out each permit
> individually and doing the research on your own. The permit issued by the
> PCTA is actually a collection of permits by the National Parks Service,
> State Parks Systems, Forest Service, and others that allows you to pass
> through the entire trail corridor without seeking out each necessary permit
> individually. It is a service provided to us and there is a limit on that
> service so that the trail is still there, beautiful, and most importantly,
> usable for years to come.
>
> I saw a lot of disregard for permits on the trail this summer and it
> concerns me. People ranted about "the government trying to control their
> rights saying when they can or can't hike" (I would like to note that the
> PCTA is not a government organization) while not paying any regard to the
> reason those permits are there.
>
> PLEASE be conscientious about this. If we aim to be stewards of the
> environment and participate in LNT practices then paying mind to the permit
> system and the permit limits is extremely important. They are not there to
> limit us. They are there to protect us and the beauty we love to indulge
> ourselves in.
>
> Passionately,
>
> Wikipedia
>
> On Tue, Sep 27, 2016 at 5:19 PM, Robert E. Riess <robert.riess at cox.net>
> wrote:
>
> > Congratulations to the Class of 2016, who were lucky enough to draw a
> > PCTA Long Distance Permit starting at the border, and who had no
> > ADZPCTKO to inspire and enlighten them. I am saddened by what I hope
> > is a temporary halt to the world-class hiking event which for 17 great
> > years gave so much to so many, provided by so few, and who did it so
> > very, very well. I am thankful for the opportunity to have partaken.
> >
> >
> >
> > Certainly, a 2016 PCT through hike is an accomplishment of great pride
> > and satisfaction.  Some were not so fortunate.  Some from overseas
> > could not get a permit to conform with their travel arrangements and
> > just gave up on their goal of hiking the PCT in 2016.  At least one
> > hiker known to me had to cancel his airline ticket and rebook to
> > conform with his PCTA permit at an additional cost of over $1000.
> > Some were scared to death of being stopped by the US Forest Service
> > because their only chance to hike did not conform with the date of
> > their PCTA Long Distance Permit.  They were in genuine fear of having
> their passports confiscated for ?illegal hiking.?
> > Many US and foreign hikers had permits which were at variance with the
> > actual dates of their starts, and many more hiked without a permit of
> > any kind.
> >
> >
> >
> > In 2015 and 2016, the PCTA, on its own authority as trail manager,
> > established a daily quota of 50 Long Distance Permits starting at the
> > border during the height of through-hiker season.  I was told by Beth
> > Boyst, the PCT Trail Manager for the US Forest Service, that the limit
> > of
> > 50 permits per day was her idea, stating also that she arrived at the
> > decision based upon exhaustive research into the increase in hiker
> > numbers experienced during the years 2012-2014, and their attendant
> impact on the
> > first 100 miles of the PCT.   This confused me in that one agency limited
> > the number of permits and another took credit for the decision, so on
> > April
> > 14 of this year, I submitted a Freedom of Information Act request
> > asking for all documentation discussing or supporting the 50 permit
> daily limit.
> > The US Forest Service reply to my FOIA request providing 4 pages of
> > responsive documents was received on July 7.  I will provide my
> > original FOIA request and the Forest Service?s response by email to
> > anyone who requests them.  I have read these documents many times, and
> > I have found no basis whatsoever for limiting daily hiking permits.
> > This is the official response of the government of the United States
> > to a valid request for information.  By law, it is exhaustive and
> > complete.  There is no more information to consider.  No anecdotes, no
> > feelings, no opinions, no guesses.
> >
> >
> >
> > So, with the 2016 PCT through hiking season drawing to a close, there
> > will be many hikers with recent experiences on the trail who may be
> > willing to share their experiences and offer their opinions regarding
> > the necessity and efficacy of the 2015-2016 permit limitations.  IMO,
> > this is necessary if the PCT hiking community wants to influence the
> > 2017 hiking season on the PCT, either in favor of permit limitations,
> > or opposed to them.  You should not expect to be asked for your
> > experiences and opinions by the US Forest Service or the PCTA.  Some
> > of us recall how the permit limitations were implemented for the past
> > 2 years.  There was no public discussion, there was no opportunity for
> > hikers to state their positions, and there was no advance notice.
> > Hikers first became aware of the 50 permit per day limitation
> > simultaneously with the opening of the issuance of permits by the
> > PCTA.  There is every indication there will be more of the same in
> 2017.  Congratulations to the Class of 2016.  Good Luck to the Class of
> > 2017.   BR
> > _______________________________________________
> > Pct-L mailing list
> > Pct-L at backcountry.net
> > To unsubscribe, or change options visit:
> > http://mailman.backcountry.net/mailman/listinfo/pct-l
> >
> > List Archives:
> > http://mailman.backcountry.net/pipermail/pct-l/
> > All content is copyrighted by the respective authors.
> > Reproduction is prohibited without express permission.
>
>
>
>
> --
> Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter
> and those who matter don't mind. ~Dr. Seuss ______________________________
> _________________
> Pct-L mailing list
> Pct-L at backcountry.net
> To unsubscribe, or change options visit:
> http://mailman.backcountry.net/mailman/listinfo/pct-l
>
> List Archives:
> http://mailman.backcountry.net/pipermail/pct-l/
> All content is copyrighted by the respective authors.
> Reproduction is prohibited without express permission.
>
>


-- 
Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter
and those who matter don't mind. ~Dr. Seuss

From veselyjames at gmail.com  Wed Sep 28 13:01:42 2016
From: veselyjames at gmail.com (James Vesely)
Date: Wed, 28 Sep 2016 11:01:42 -0700
Subject: [pct-l] Permits 2017
In-Reply-To: <CAO-n75wiomhqsRCm7QX5DEA66kaKLCV55UgU-zTjxQAVXsUUyg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <E08EF1266D2B42569CA3874B5746781D@RobertERiessPC>
 <CAO-n75wC7E5FW+S=TeU3OViOm2eydRUmUgfV2q6e2dvepKjqxQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <BN6PR16MB14411C3D048C09AD2B2D063DA7CF0@BN6PR16MB1441.namprd16.prod.outlook.com>
 <CAO-n75wiomhqsRCm7QX5DEA66kaKLCV55UgU-zTjxQAVXsUUyg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAMxQpswds0W+bv0EWsubmW0+xdjp_3ZVt8ZQwGhZjM0ZbdNtKA@mail.gmail.com>

Interesting discussion but it fails to resolve the issue of overuse and
potential negative effects of PCT hikers who are entering high use
wilderness areas such as in Cleveland/Descanso, Mt. San Jacinto
wilderness,  Sierra Nevada mountains and others.

Large slugs of PCT hikers are entering National Forest, and National Park
regions that have very stringent entry quota permits, some of which are
almost impossible to obtain outside of having a "PCT hiking permit".    I
am aware that not all PCT hikers with "PCT permits" that start at the
Mexican boarder make it to "permit required areas" but a substantial number
of hikers that do make it, seem to have a carte blanche pass that allows
them to bypass all entry point quotas for any given day of the week in at
any point on the trail system.  Quotas that were setup to reduce impact and
crowding are basically worthless when 50 or more (assuming 50/day
separation) are allowed to enter at their convenience.

A good example of this is what happens in the Sierra Nevada mountains
during the short hiking season.   In the past PCT hikers were fewer in
number and a majority of them would normally have completed the southern
Sierra's by the end of June.  In the year 1993 when the golden spike was
hammered into the ground to commemorate the PCT, 35 people had completed
the trail and in the year 2016 the number was 647.   The total number of
permits issued in 2015 was 4453 and this does not include the hikers, whom,
as Brick stated do not bother to get thru-hike permits. The number of PCT
hikers will no doubt continue to rise.

I am a big fan of the PCT and although my attempt at hiking the PCT in 1978
failed, I have always thought I would give it another try.  In the mean
time, I still love to do local hikes in the Sierra Nevada mountains and
during one of my hikes last year I saw first hand evidence of huge crowds
of hikers (> half were PCT) that I have never seen before.  We all love
backpacking for different reasons but I believe the main reason so many of
us enjoy the sport is for the solitude it can offer and for the amazing
uncrowded pristine scenery it can provide.  Having uncontrolled numbers of
people entering sensitive back-country wilderness, in what was once a
thoughtfully regulated quota system, can not only damage sensitive
wilderness areas but also make the backpacking experience much less
meaningful.

The impact of large numbers of hikers that basically game the system and
have legal uncontrolled access to any wilderness area at any time, at any
place throughout the summer will have to, someday, be addressed before it
destroys all the main reasons we all enjoy the sport of backpacking so
much.   I would love to hear input from the backpack community on whether
they believe this is an issue or not and what should be done if anything.


Concerned hiker.

On Tue, Sep 27, 2016 at 11:01 PM, Cody B <moonbeams13 at gmail.com> wrote:

> Richard -
>
> Permits are required in Yosemite, but not necessarily PCT permits. You
> could have had a wilderness permit specifically for that are issued by the
> NPS instead.
>
> Wikipedia
>
> On Tue, Sep 27, 2016 at 11:44 PM, Richard Brinkman <richardb10 at live.com>
> wrote:
>
> > In Yosemite, I was asked by a Ranger to show my PCT thru-hiker permit.
> > Thank goodness I had it, albeit folded in a ziplock.
> >
> > Roadwalker, '15
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Pct-L [mailto:pct-l-bounces at backcountry.net] On Behalf Of Cody B
> > Sent: Tuesday, September 27, 2016 3:39 PM
> > To: Robert E. Riess
> > Cc: PCT-L
> > Subject: Re: [pct-l] Permits 2017
> >
> > BR,
> >
> > The permit limits are in place to protect the fragile environments and
> > ecosystems that the Pacific Crest Trail passes through from overuse by
> > hikers. They are there for a very good reason and it is indeed backed by
> > research on environmental impact. The first several hundred miles are
> > particularly vulnerable as there are very limited water resources and
> many
> > of them cannot support hundreds of hikers draining them in addition to
> > supplying the necessary water for the native plants and animals.
> >
> > It is possible to hike the PCT legally without a long-distance permit
> > published by the PCTA, but that does require seeking out each permit
> > individually and doing the research on your own. The permit issued by the
> > PCTA is actually a collection of permits by the National Parks Service,
> > State Parks Systems, Forest Service, and others that allows you to pass
> > through the entire trail corridor without seeking out each necessary
> permit
> > individually. It is a service provided to us and there is a limit on that
> > service so that the trail is still there, beautiful, and most
> importantly,
> > usable for years to come.
> >
> > I saw a lot of disregard for permits on the trail this summer and it
> > concerns me. People ranted about "the government trying to control their
> > rights saying when they can or can't hike" (I would like to note that the
> > PCTA is not a government organization) while not paying any regard to the
> > reason those permits are there.
> >
> > PLEASE be conscientious about this. If we aim to be stewards of the
> > environment and participate in LNT practices then paying mind to the
> permit
> > system and the permit limits is extremely important. They are not there
> to
> > limit us. They are there to protect us and the beauty we love to indulge
> > ourselves in.
> >
> > Passionately,
> >
> > Wikipedia
> >
> > On Tue, Sep 27, 2016 at 5:19 PM, Robert E. Riess <robert.riess at cox.net>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Congratulations to the Class of 2016, who were lucky enough to draw a
> > > PCTA Long Distance Permit starting at the border, and who had no
> > > ADZPCTKO to inspire and enlighten them. I am saddened by what I hope
> > > is a temporary halt to the world-class hiking event which for 17 great
> > > years gave so much to so many, provided by so few, and who did it so
> > > very, very well. I am thankful for the opportunity to have partaken.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Certainly, a 2016 PCT through hike is an accomplishment of great pride
> > > and satisfaction.  Some were not so fortunate.  Some from overseas
> > > could not get a permit to conform with their travel arrangements and
> > > just gave up on their goal of hiking the PCT in 2016.  At least one
> > > hiker known to me had to cancel his airline ticket and rebook to
> > > conform with his PCTA permit at an additional cost of over $1000.
> > > Some were scared to death of being stopped by the US Forest Service
> > > because their only chance to hike did not conform with the date of
> > > their PCTA Long Distance Permit.  They were in genuine fear of having
> > their passports confiscated for ?illegal hiking.?
> > > Many US and foreign hikers had permits which were at variance with the
> > > actual dates of their starts, and many more hiked without a permit of
> > > any kind.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > In 2015 and 2016, the PCTA, on its own authority as trail manager,
> > > established a daily quota of 50 Long Distance Permits starting at the
> > > border during the height of through-hiker season.  I was told by Beth
> > > Boyst, the PCT Trail Manager for the US Forest Service, that the limit
> > > of
> > > 50 permits per day was her idea, stating also that she arrived at the
> > > decision based upon exhaustive research into the increase in hiker
> > > numbers experienced during the years 2012-2014, and their attendant
> > impact on the
> > > first 100 miles of the PCT.   This confused me in that one agency
> limited
> > > the number of permits and another took credit for the decision, so on
> > > April
> > > 14 of this year, I submitted a Freedom of Information Act request
> > > asking for all documentation discussing or supporting the 50 permit
> > daily limit.
> > > The US Forest Service reply to my FOIA request providing 4 pages of
> > > responsive documents was received on July 7.  I will provide my
> > > original FOIA request and the Forest Service?s response by email to
> > > anyone who requests them.  I have read these documents many times, and
> > > I have found no basis whatsoever for limiting daily hiking permits.
> > > This is the official response of the government of the United States
> > > to a valid request for information.  By law, it is exhaustive and
> > > complete.  There is no more information to consider.  No anecdotes, no
> > > feelings, no opinions, no guesses.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > So, with the 2016 PCT through hiking season drawing to a close, there
> > > will be many hikers with recent experiences on the trail who may be
> > > willing to share their experiences and offer their opinions regarding
> > > the necessity and efficacy of the 2015-2016 permit limitations.  IMO,
> > > this is necessary if the PCT hiking community wants to influence the
> > > 2017 hiking season on the PCT, either in favor of permit limitations,
> > > or opposed to them.  You should not expect to be asked for your
> > > experiences and opinions by the US Forest Service or the PCTA.  Some
> > > of us recall how the permit limitations were implemented for the past
> > > 2 years.  There was no public discussion, there was no opportunity for
> > > hikers to state their positions, and there was no advance notice.
> > > Hikers first became aware of the 50 permit per day limitation
> > > simultaneously with the opening of the issuance of permits by the
> > > PCTA.  There is every indication there will be more of the same in
> > 2017.  Congratulations to the Class of 2016.  Good Luck to the Class of
> > > 2017.   BR
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Pct-L mailing list
> > > Pct-L at backcountry.net
> > > To unsubscribe, or change options visit:
> > > http://mailman.backcountry.net/mailman/listinfo/pct-l
> > >
> > > List Archives:
> > > http://mailman.backcountry.net/pipermail/pct-l/
> > > All content is copyrighted by the respective authors.
> > > Reproduction is prohibited without express permission.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter
> > and those who matter don't mind. ~Dr. Seuss
> ______________________________
> > _________________
> > Pct-L mailing list
> > Pct-L at backcountry.net
> > To unsubscribe, or change options visit:
> > http://mailman.backcountry.net/mailman/listinfo/pct-l
> >
> > List Archives:
> > http://mailman.backcountry.net/pipermail/pct-l/
> > All content is copyrighted by the respective authors.
> > Reproduction is prohibited without express permission.
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter
> and those who matter don't mind. ~Dr. Seuss
> _______________________________________________
> Pct-L mailing list
> Pct-L at backcountry.net
> To unsubscribe, or change options visit:
> http://mailman.backcountry.net/mailman/listinfo/pct-l
>
> List Archives:
> http://mailman.backcountry.net/pipermail/pct-l/
> All content is copyrighted by the respective authors.
> Reproduction is prohibited without express permission.
>

From ned at mountaineducation.org  Wed Sep 28 13:07:14 2016
From: ned at mountaineducation.org (ned at mountaineducation.org)
Date: Wed, 28 Sep 2016 11:07:14 -0700
Subject: [pct-l] 52 years later, I tried Trail Runners...
Message-ID: <206e01d219b3$24dcb490$6e961db0$@mountaineducation.org>

[Sorry for the cross-posting, first of all. Some of Mountain Education's
students and followers do not "do" Facebook, so I repost here for them.]

***

 

I'm a heavy leather boot fan. Always have been. 



But, I took a pair of trail runners out for a "test-drive" the other day...





First, a little bit about my trail experience:



- I did the PCT (1974) and CDT (1980) in the same boot (had to change soles
only twice in nearly 6,000 miles while the uppers fit like a glove). A nice
cost savings.

 

- For the past 34 years, I'm out on-trail an average of 150 days a year
teaching wilderness safety skills in these wonders of durable design and
they "work" great for me. 

 

- In those 34 years I've purchased 3 pairs of new boots and have never
gotten a single blister nor had to go through any sort of protracted boot
"break-in" to make them ready for the trail. (However, back in 1974 when I
did the PCT, the Vasque boots I used did require extensive pre-trail
softening with oil and walking just to get them to flex. Thankfully, boots
are built better these days!)

 

- Believe it or not, I actually like the weight on my feet! It adds what I
call "swing-weight" to my leg action and I step farther...but I have long
legs, anyway. Come April, when I transition off snowshoes and put on my
hiking boots again, my legs get used to the weight over the first few days
on trail and all feels good.

 

- On steep downhills with my heavy pack, I pound down on top of all sorts of
big and little rocks, sharp pointy rocks, rock edges, branches, roots, and
even slippery scree and don't feel any impact on my plantar fascia, balls of
feet, or heels. The low, soft Achilles tendon panel sits just right so it
doesn't dig into the tendon and cause tendonitis (this did happen once with
one design and brought a trip to a sudden halt, sending me limping home).

 

- Because I teach my students to "Look up" to enjoy the scenery we're hiking
through, some of my attention is not focused on obstacles and hazards in the
trail, so my feet tend to crash into things as demonstrated by all the
gashes and punctures around the leather toe box. I wouldn't have it any
other way. I'm partly out there for the view. Who wants to stare at the
trail all day while walking...?

- Creek crossings are simple. I walk right through them, have great
traction, and don't worry about punctures or cuts. After changing sock sets
on the other side, my boots dry out in a few miles, even when on snow.
(You'll need to keep the outside of your boots waterproof and don't trust
Gore-Tex in footwear).

 

 

Most of my students don't get it. They firmly believe that trail runner
footwear is the only way to hike! Other things encourage us to try the new
fad (from my point of view), as well, 1. you read the pro-trail-runner rants
on social media, 2. all the footprints on the trail are made by trail
runners, and 3. you don't want to feel different. you read the
pro-trail-runner rants on social media and all the footprints on the trail
are made by trail runners. 





So, recently, I "test-drove" a pair of popular trail runners and this is
what I noticed:



1. The shoes were amazingly light and I felt like my feet could fly around
in any direction. This was novel and fun, but I felt vulnerable.

 

2. Every little rock impacted straight into my arch, heel, and ball of my
foot. I had to watch the trailbed pretty closely to avoid anything
protruding that could hurt my feet if I stepped on it. Basically, I had to
be more careful about where I stepped and most of the time that took
emergency "collision avoidance maneuvers." By the time the hike was over, my
feet were pretty sore. (I think over a long hike you might get used to
paying this kind of attention to the trailbed).

 

3. Although the shoe had a Vibram sole, it was very flexible and could twist
easily, so it couldn't hold an edge on rocks or snow. Where I had to step on
steeply inclined rock or snow, the shoe would roll flat and tend to slip,
especially on scree or snow.

 

4. Where the trail became very narrow and tall-ish boulders lined the route,
my exposed ankle bones got cut up pretty good. 

 

5. During one creek-crossing, the soft sole of one shoe got wedged between
two boulders in thigh-deep whitewater and the shoe pulled off, mid-stream!
Luckily it stayed there long enough for me to limp tenderly through the rest
of the stream, avoiding some of the sharper rocks and pointy sticks on the
creek bottom, to drop my pack on the other side and return into the creek to
rescue the shoe. 

 

6. The soft uppers of the shoes did not do well with abrasion on granite,
either, as some of the stitching and fabric panels showed small tears,
especially near the little toes and along the sides of the toe box. 

 

7. Vulcanized rubber soles can either de-laminate from the uppers at the
little toe flex area or separate from the mid-sole over time and miles. This
did not happen to me on this maiden voyage, but I've seen it plague
long-distance thru hikers in the past, forcing them off-trail to find a new
pair. (Heavy leather boots often have their soles stitched via a "Norwegian
welt" to their uppers, thus making sole replacement easily done by most any
cobbler near the trail). 

 

 

What you choose to wear is a very personal decision. The only real way to
find out what "works" for you is to try out different designs, like with
tents, stoves, sleeping pads and bags, and even food, then make up your own
mind! 

 

These were my observations about hiking in trail runners in the high Sierra
above 10,000 feet while carrying my usual "heavy-trucker" pack. I would
imagine that if your pack was lighter, impacts to the plantar aspect of the
foot and its tendons and fascia would not be so risky or painful.

 

So, be picky! Test different styles and designs on trailbed similar to what
you expect on the more rugged sections of the route you want to hike. Any
shoe is going to feel great in a city park, but take it on a test-hike up to
the weathered trails at 11,000 or 12,000 feet and see how it treats you.
This way you won't go through the painful-feet stage at the beginning of
most thru hikes and you can enjoy the journey from start to finish!

 

 

Ned Tibbits, Director

Mountain Education, Inc.

ned at mountaineducation.org <mailto:ned at mountaineducation.org>  

 


From moonbeams13 at gmail.com  Wed Sep 28 13:25:43 2016
From: moonbeams13 at gmail.com (Cody B)
Date: Wed, 28 Sep 2016 13:25:43 -0500
Subject: [pct-l] Permits 2017
In-Reply-To: <CAMxQpswds0W+bv0EWsubmW0+xdjp_3ZVt8ZQwGhZjM0ZbdNtKA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <E08EF1266D2B42569CA3874B5746781D@RobertERiessPC>
 <CAO-n75wC7E5FW+S=TeU3OViOm2eydRUmUgfV2q6e2dvepKjqxQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <BN6PR16MB14411C3D048C09AD2B2D063DA7CF0@BN6PR16MB1441.namprd16.prod.outlook.com>
 <CAO-n75wiomhqsRCm7QX5DEA66kaKLCV55UgU-zTjxQAVXsUUyg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAMxQpswds0W+bv0EWsubmW0+xdjp_3ZVt8ZQwGhZjM0ZbdNtKA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO-n75yvmJi4JuNYk3DZTRXr0DK8MCRvTVH=2-DFsS06VvYgWQ@mail.gmail.com>

James,

I agree that the system needs improvements, particularly surrounding alpine
environments which take much longer to rebound from environmental impact
than most ecosystems at lower elevations. This is one of those annoying
little intersections of science and policy that will probably never have a
perfect solution and requires an ever-evolving approach. The Southern
Terminus permit limit is a good starting point because it addresses the
majority of hikers and doesn't dictate things like how fast one has to
move. It is minimally intrusive to people's plans compared to quotas that
may be implemented along the way. I think that there are a couple ways this
could be approached in the Sierra, perhaps by utilizing semi-flexible
permitting for that section (say ability to enter within a certain range of
dates depending upon your hiking speed cuz as we all know, things never go
according to plan), but there is still a lot of work that needs to be done
before a mid-way restriction could be responsibly implemented.

Wikipedia

On Sep 28, 2016 1:02 PM, "James Vesely" <veselyjames at gmail.com> wrote:

> Interesting discussion but it fails to resolve the issue of overuse and
> potential negative effects of PCT hikers who are entering high use
> wilderness areas such as in Cleveland/Descanso, Mt. San Jacinto
> wilderness,  Sierra Nevada mountains and others.
>
> Large slugs of PCT hikers are entering National Forest, and National Park
> regions that have very stringent entry quota permits, some of which are
> almost impossible to obtain outside of having a "PCT hiking permit".    I
> am aware that not all PCT hikers with "PCT permits" that start at the
> Mexican boarder make it to "permit required areas" but a substantial number
> of hikers that do make it, seem to have a carte blanche pass that allows
> them to bypass all entry point quotas for any given day of the week in at
> any point on the trail system.  Quotas that were setup to reduce impact and
> crowding are basically worthless when 50 or more (assuming 50/day
> separation) are allowed to enter at their convenience.
>
> A good example of this is what happens in the Sierra Nevada mountains
> during the short hiking season.   In the past PCT hikers were fewer in
> number and a majority of them would normally have completed the southern
> Sierra's by the end of June.  In the year 1993 when the golden spike was
> hammered into the ground to commemorate the PCT, 35 people had completed
> the trail and in the year 2016 the number was 647.   The total number of
> permits issued in 2015 was 4453 and this does not include the hikers, whom,
> as Brick stated do not bother to get thru-hike permits. The number of PCT
> hikers will no doubt continue to rise.
>
> I am a big fan of the PCT and although my attempt at hiking the PCT in 1978
> failed, I have always thought I would give it another try.  In the mean
> time, I still love to do local hikes in the Sierra Nevada mountains and
> during one of my hikes last year I saw first hand evidence of huge crowds
> of hikers (> half were PCT) that I have never seen before.  We all love
> backpacking for different reasons but I believe the main reason so many of
> us enjoy the sport is for the solitude it can offer and for the amazing
> uncrowded pristine scenery it can provide.  Having uncontrolled numbers of
> people entering sensitive back-country wilderness, in what was once a
> thoughtfully regulated quota system, can not only damage sensitive
> wilderness areas but also make the backpacking experience much less
> meaningful.
>
> The impact of large numbers of hikers that basically game the system and
> have legal uncontrolled access to any wilderness area at any time, at any
> place throughout the summer will have to, someday, be addressed before it
> destroys all the main reasons we all enjoy the sport of backpacking so
> much.   I would love to hear input from the backpack community on whether
> they believe this is an issue or not and what should be done if anything.
>
>
> Concerned hiker.
>
> On Tue, Sep 27, 2016 at 11:01 PM, Cody B <moonbeams13 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Richard -
> >
> > Permits are required in Yosemite, but not necessarily PCT permits. You
> > could have had a wilderness permit specifically for that are issued by
> the
> > NPS instead.
> >
> > Wikipedia
> >
> > On Tue, Sep 27, 2016 at 11:44 PM, Richard Brinkman <richardb10 at live.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > In Yosemite, I was asked by a Ranger to show my PCT thru-hiker permit.
> > > Thank goodness I had it, albeit folded in a ziplock.
> > >
> > > Roadwalker, '15
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Pct-L [mailto:pct-l-bounces at backcountry.net] On Behalf Of Cody B
> > > Sent: Tuesday, September 27, 2016 3:39 PM
> > > To: Robert E. Riess
> > > Cc: PCT-L
> > > Subject: Re: [pct-l] Permits 2017
> > >
> > > BR,
> > >
> > > The permit limits are in place to protect the fragile environments and
> > > ecosystems that the Pacific Crest Trail passes through from overuse by
> > > hikers. They are there for a very good reason and it is indeed backed
> by
> > > research on environmental impact. The first several hundred miles are
> > > particularly vulnerable as there are very limited water resources and
> > many
> > > of them cannot support hundreds of hikers draining them in addition to
> > > supplying the necessary water for the native plants and animals.
> > >
> > > It is possible to hike the PCT legally without a long-distance permit
> > > published by the PCTA, but that does require seeking out each permit
> > > individually and doing the research on your own. The permit issued by
> the
> > > PCTA is actually a collection of permits by the National Parks Service,
> > > State Parks Systems, Forest Service, and others that allows you to pass
> > > through the entire trail corridor without seeking out each necessary
> > permit
> > > individually. It is a service provided to us and there is a limit on
> that
> > > service so that the trail is still there, beautiful, and most
> > importantly,
> > > usable for years to come.
> > >
> > > I saw a lot of disregard for permits on the trail this summer and it
> > > concerns me. People ranted about "the government trying to control
> their
> > > rights saying when they can or can't hike" (I would like to note that
> the
> > > PCTA is not a government organization) while not paying any regard to
> the
> > > reason those permits are there.
> > >
> > > PLEASE be conscientious about this. If we aim to be stewards of the
> > > environment and participate in LNT practices then paying mind to the
> > permit
> > > system and the permit limits is extremely important. They are not there
> > to
> > > limit us. They are there to protect us and the beauty we love to
> indulge
> > > ourselves in.
> > >
> > > Passionately,
> > >
> > > Wikipedia
> > >
> > > On Tue, Sep 27, 2016 at 5:19 PM, Robert E. Riess <robert.riess at cox.net
> >
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > Congratulations to the Class of 2016, who were lucky enough to draw a
> > > > PCTA Long Distance Permit starting at the border, and who had no
> > > > ADZPCTKO to inspire and enlighten them. I am saddened by what I hope
> > > > is a temporary halt to the world-class hiking event which for 17
> great
> > > > years gave so much to so many, provided by so few, and who did it so
> > > > very, very well. I am thankful for the opportunity to have partaken.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Certainly, a 2016 PCT through hike is an accomplishment of great
> pride
> > > > and satisfaction.  Some were not so fortunate.  Some from overseas
> > > > could not get a permit to conform with their travel arrangements and
> > > > just gave up on their goal of hiking the PCT in 2016.  At least one
> > > > hiker known to me had to cancel his airline ticket and rebook to
> > > > conform with his PCTA permit at an additional cost of over $1000.
> > > > Some were scared to death of being stopped by the US Forest Service
> > > > because their only chance to hike did not conform with the date of
> > > > their PCTA Long Distance Permit.  They were in genuine fear of having
> > > their passports confiscated for ?illegal hiking.?
> > > > Many US and foreign hikers had permits which were at variance with
> the
> > > > actual dates of their starts, and many more hiked without a permit of
> > > > any kind.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > In 2015 and 2016, the PCTA, on its own authority as trail manager,
> > > > established a daily quota of 50 Long Distance Permits starting at the
> > > > border during the height of through-hiker season.  I was told by Beth
> > > > Boyst, the PCT Trail Manager for the US Forest Service, that the
> limit
> > > > of
> > > > 50 permits per day was her idea, stating also that she arrived at the
> > > > decision based upon exhaustive research into the increase in hiker
> > > > numbers experienced during the years 2012-2014, and their attendant
> > > impact on the
> > > > first 100 miles of the PCT.   This confused me in that one agency
> > limited
> > > > the number of permits and another took credit for the decision, so on
> > > > April
> > > > 14 of this year, I submitted a Freedom of Information Act request
> > > > asking for all documentation discussing or supporting the 50 permit
> > > daily limit.
> > > > The US Forest Service reply to my FOIA request providing 4 pages of
> > > > responsive documents was received on July 7.  I will provide my
> > > > original FOIA request and the Forest Service?s response by email to
> > > > anyone who requests them.  I have read these documents many times,
> and
> > > > I have found no basis whatsoever for limiting daily hiking permits.
> > > > This is the official response of the government of the United States
> > > > to a valid request for information.  By law, it is exhaustive and
> > > > complete.  There is no more information to consider.  No anecdotes,
> no
> > > > feelings, no opinions, no guesses.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > So, with the 2016 PCT through hiking season drawing to a close, there
> > > > will be many hikers with recent experiences on the trail who may be
> > > > willing to share their experiences and offer their opinions regarding
> > > > the necessity and efficacy of the 2015-2016 permit limitations.  IMO,
> > > > this is necessary if the PCT hiking community wants to influence the
> > > > 2017 hiking season on the PCT, either in favor of permit limitations,
> > > > or opposed to them.  You should not expect to be asked for your
> > > > experiences and opinions by the US Forest Service or the PCTA.  Some
> > > > of us recall how the permit limitations were implemented for the past
> > > > 2 years.  There was no public discussion, there was no opportunity
> for
> > > > hikers to state their positions, and there was no advance notice.
> > > > Hikers first became aware of the 50 permit per day limitation
> > > > simultaneously with the opening of the issuance of permits by the
> > > > PCTA.  There is every indication there will be more of the same in
> > > 2017.  Congratulations to the Class of 2016.  Good Luck to the Class of
> > > > 2017.   BR
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Pct-L mailing list
> > > > Pct-L at backcountry.net
> > > > To unsubscribe, or change options visit:
> > > > http://mailman.backcountry.net/mailman/listinfo/pct-l
> > > >
> > > > List Archives:
> > > > http://mailman.backcountry.net/pipermail/pct-l/
> > > > All content is copyrighted by the respective authors.
> > > > Reproduction is prohibited without express permission.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't
> matter
> > > and those who matter don't mind. ~Dr. Seuss
> > ______________________________
> > > _________________
> > > Pct-L mailing list
> > > Pct-L at backcountry.net
> > > To unsubscribe, or change options visit:
> > > http://mailman.backcountry.net/mailman/listinfo/pct-l
> > >
> > > List Archives:
> > > http://mailman.backcountry.net/pipermail/pct-l/
> > > All content is copyrighted by the respective authors.
> > > Reproduction is prohibited without express permission.
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter
> > and those who matter don't mind. ~Dr. Seuss
> > _______________________________________________
> > Pct-L mailing list
> > Pct-L at backcountry.net
> > To unsubscribe, or change options visit:
> > http://mailman.backcountry.net/mailman/listinfo/pct-l
> >
> > List Archives:
> > http://mailman.backcountry.net/pipermail/pct-l/
> > All content is copyrighted by the respective authors.
> > Reproduction is prohibited without express permission.
> >
> _______________________________________________
> Pct-L mailing list
> Pct-L at backcountry.net
> To unsubscribe, or change options visit:
> http://mailman.backcountry.net/mailman/listinfo/pct-l
>
> List Archives:
> http://mailman.backcountry.net/pipermail/pct-l/
> All content is copyrighted by the respective authors.
> Reproduction is prohibited without express permission.

From brick at brickrobbins.com  Wed Sep 28 14:17:05 2016
From: brick at brickrobbins.com (Brick Robbins)
Date: Wed, 28 Sep 2016 12:17:05 -0700
Subject: [pct-l] Permits 2017
In-Reply-To: <CAMxQpswds0W+bv0EWsubmW0+xdjp_3ZVt8ZQwGhZjM0ZbdNtKA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <E08EF1266D2B42569CA3874B5746781D@RobertERiessPC>
 <CAO-n75wC7E5FW+S=TeU3OViOm2eydRUmUgfV2q6e2dvepKjqxQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <BN6PR16MB14411C3D048C09AD2B2D063DA7CF0@BN6PR16MB1441.namprd16.prod.outlook.com>
 <CAO-n75wiomhqsRCm7QX5DEA66kaKLCV55UgU-zTjxQAVXsUUyg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAMxQpswds0W+bv0EWsubmW0+xdjp_3ZVt8ZQwGhZjM0ZbdNtKA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALV1NzkH5xnP6efA_NJNwajRdG4NeuTCn11KX-kph2ebffnYOg@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Sep 28, 2016 at 11:01 AM, James Vesely <veselyjames at gmail.com> wrote:

> Large slugs of PCT hikers are entering National Forest, and National Park
> regions that have very stringent entry quota permits, some of which are
> almost impossible to obtain outside of having a "PCT hiking permit".

I call bullshit on this one too. When there are quotas, they are based
on the TRAILHEAD.
There are NO QUOTAS on the Kennedy Meadows (south) PCT trailhead.

There are quotas on lateral trails in the Sierra, but a Thru Hiker is
not going to be accessing the section of the trail that way.

>The impact of large numbers of hikers that basically game the system

This is NOT "gaming" the system. the PCTA quota setup is not "the
system."  This is complying with the actual legal system that the USFS
and NPS have in place.

Also, when compared to the use by Weekenders, the Thru Hiker pack,
especially by the time they get to the Sierra, are not a "large
number"

The PCTA thru hiker permit was created to be a convenience and to
resolve a dispute between the USFS region 5 and region 6, not a
regulatory vehicle. I was peripherally involved when the PCTA created
the permit, and I am somewhat dismayed that this "convenience"
administered by a NGO is now pretending to be a regulatory vehicle.

From troopharrison at gmail.com  Wed Sep 28 14:24:17 2016
From: troopharrison at gmail.com (Sabrina Harrison)
Date: Wed, 28 Sep 2016 14:24:17 -0500
Subject: [pct-l] Permits 2017
In-Reply-To: <CAO-n75yvmJi4JuNYk3DZTRXr0DK8MCRvTVH=2-DFsS06VvYgWQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <E08EF1266D2B42569CA3874B5746781D@RobertERiessPC>
 <CAO-n75wC7E5FW+S=TeU3OViOm2eydRUmUgfV2q6e2dvepKjqxQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <BN6PR16MB14411C3D048C09AD2B2D063DA7CF0@BN6PR16MB1441.namprd16.prod.outlook.com>
 <CAO-n75wiomhqsRCm7QX5DEA66kaKLCV55UgU-zTjxQAVXsUUyg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAMxQpswds0W+bv0EWsubmW0+xdjp_3ZVt8ZQwGhZjM0ZbdNtKA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO-n75yvmJi4JuNYk3DZTRXr0DK8MCRvTVH=2-DFsS06VvYgWQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <586DA24E-1FA1-4FF5-9C69-8306684614D9@gmail.com>

As are many of you, I'm anxiously awaiting JMT Reinhold's wit and wisdom on this

Hacker 

Sent from my iPhone

> On Sep 28, 2016, at 1:25 PM, Cody B <moonbeams13 at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> James,
> 
> I agree that the system needs improvements, particularly surrounding alpine
> environments which take much longer to rebound from environmental impact
> than most ecosystems at lower elevations. This is one of those annoying
> little intersections of science and policy that will probably never have a
> perfect solution and requires an ever-evolving approach. The Southern
> Terminus permit limit is a good starting point because it addresses the
> majority of hikers and doesn't dictate things like how fast one has to
> move. It is minimally intrusive to people's plans compared to quotas that
> may be implemented along the way. I think that there are a couple ways this
> could be approached in the Sierra, perhaps by utilizing semi-flexible
> permitting for that section (say ability to enter within a certain range of
> dates depending upon your hiking speed cuz as we all know, things never go
> according to plan), but there is still a lot of work that needs to be done
> before a mid-way restriction could be responsibly implemented.
> 
> Wikipedia
> 
>> On Sep 28, 2016 1:02 PM, "James Vesely" <veselyjames at gmail.com> wrote:
>> 
>> Interesting discussion but it fails to resolve the issue of overuse and
>> potential negative effects of PCT hikers who are entering high use
>> wilderness areas such as in Cleveland/Descanso, Mt. San Jacinto
>> wilderness,  Sierra Nevada mountains and others.
>> 
>> Large slugs of PCT hikers are entering National Forest, and National Park
>> regions that have very stringent entry quota permits, some of which are
>> almost impossible to obtain outside of having a "PCT hiking permit".    I
>> am aware that not all PCT hikers with "PCT permits" that start at the
>> Mexican boarder make it to "permit required areas" but a substantial number
>> of hikers that do make it, seem to have a carte blanche pass that allows
>> them to bypass all entry point quotas for any given day of the week in at
>> any point on the trail system.  Quotas that were setup to reduce impact and
>> crowding are basically worthless when 50 or more (assuming 50/day
>> separation) are allowed to enter at their convenience.
>> 
>> A good example of this is what happens in the Sierra Nevada mountains
>> during the short hiking season.   In the past PCT hikers were fewer in
>> number and a majority of them would normally have completed the southern
>> Sierra's by the end of June.  In the year 1993 when the golden spike was
>> hammered into the ground to commemorate the PCT, 35 people had completed
>> the trail and in the year 2016 the number was 647.   The total number of
>> permits issued in 2015 was 4453 and this does not include the hikers, whom,
>> as Brick stated do not bother to get thru-hike permits. The number of PCT
>> hikers will no doubt continue to rise.
>> 
>> I am a big fan of the PCT and although my attempt at hiking the PCT in 1978
>> failed, I have always thought I would give it another try.  In the mean
>> time, I still love to do local hikes in the Sierra Nevada mountains and
>> during one of my hikes last year I saw first hand evidence of huge crowds
>> of hikers (> half were PCT) that I have never seen before.  We all love
>> backpacking for different reasons but I believe the main reason so many of
>> us enjoy the sport is for the solitude it can offer and for the amazing
>> uncrowded pristine scenery it can provide.  Having uncontrolled numbers of
>> people entering sensitive back-country wilderness, in what was once a
>> thoughtfully regulated quota system, can not only damage sensitive
>> wilderness areas but also make the backpacking experience much less
>> meaningful.
>> 
>> The impact of large numbers of hikers that basically game the system and
>> have legal uncontrolled access to any wilderness area at any time, at any
>> place throughout the summer will have to, someday, be addressed before it
>> destroys all the main reasons we all enjoy the sport of backpacking so
>> much.   I would love to hear input from the backpack community on whether
>> they believe this is an issue or not and what should be done if anything.
>> 
>> 
>> Concerned hiker.
>> 
>>> On Tue, Sep 27, 2016 at 11:01 PM, Cody B <moonbeams13 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Richard -
>>> 
>>> Permits are required in Yosemite, but not necessarily PCT permits. You
>>> could have had a wilderness permit specifically for that are issued by
>> the
>>> NPS instead.
>>> 
>>> Wikipedia
>>> 
>>> On Tue, Sep 27, 2016 at 11:44 PM, Richard Brinkman <richardb10 at live.com>
>>> wrote:
>>> 
>>>> In Yosemite, I was asked by a Ranger to show my PCT thru-hiker permit.
>>>> Thank goodness I had it, albeit folded in a ziplock.
>>>> 
>>>> Roadwalker, '15
>>>> 
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: Pct-L [mailto:pct-l-bounces at backcountry.net] On Behalf Of Cody B
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, September 27, 2016 3:39 PM
>>>> To: Robert E. Riess
>>>> Cc: PCT-L
>>>> Subject: Re: [pct-l] Permits 2017
>>>> 
>>>> BR,
>>>> 
>>>> The permit limits are in place to protect the fragile environments and
>>>> ecosystems that the Pacific Crest Trail passes through from overuse by
>>>> hikers. They are there for a very good reason and it is indeed backed
>> by
>>>> research on environmental impact. The first several hundred miles are
>>>> particularly vulnerable as there are very limited water resources and
>>> many
>>>> of them cannot support hundreds of hikers draining them in addition to
>>>> supplying the necessary water for the native plants and animals.
>>>> 
>>>> It is possible to hike the PCT legally without a long-distance permit
>>>> published by the PCTA, but that does require seeking out each permit
>>>> individually and doing the research on your own. The permit issued by
>> the
>>>> PCTA is actually a collection of permits by the National Parks Service,
>>>> State Parks Systems, Forest Service, and others that allows you to pass
>>>> through the entire trail corridor without seeking out each necessary
>>> permit
>>>> individually. It is a service provided to us and there is a limit on
>> that
>>>> service so that the trail is still there, beautiful, and most
>>> importantly,
>>>> usable for years to come.
>>>> 
>>>> I saw a lot of disregard for permits on the trail this summer and it
>>>> concerns me. People ranted about "the government trying to control
>> their
>>>> rights saying when they can or can't hike" (I would like to note that
>> the
>>>> PCTA is not a government organization) while not paying any regard to
>> the
>>>> reason those permits are there.
>>>> 
>>>> PLEASE be conscientious about this. If we aim to be stewards of the
>>>> environment and participate in LNT practices then paying mind to the
>>> permit
>>>> system and the permit limits is extremely important. They are not there
>>> to
>>>> limit us. They are there to protect us and the beauty we love to
>> indulge
>>>> ourselves in.
>>>> 
>>>> Passionately,
>>>> 
>>>> Wikipedia
>>>> 
>>>> On Tue, Sep 27, 2016 at 5:19 PM, Robert E. Riess <robert.riess at cox.net
>>> 
>>>> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>> Congratulations to the Class of 2016, who were lucky enough to draw a
>>>>> PCTA Long Distance Permit starting at the border, and who had no
>>>>> ADZPCTKO to inspire and enlighten them. I am saddened by what I hope
>>>>> is a temporary halt to the world-class hiking event which for 17
>> great
>>>>> years gave so much to so many, provided by so few, and who did it so
>>>>> very, very well. I am thankful for the opportunity to have partaken.
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> Certainly, a 2016 PCT through hike is an accomplishment of great
>> pride
>>>>> and satisfaction.  Some were not so fortunate.  Some from overseas
>>>>> could not get a permit to conform with their travel arrangements and
>>>>> just gave up on their goal of hiking the PCT in 2016.  At least one
>>>>> hiker known to me had to cancel his airline ticket and rebook to
>>>>> conform with his PCTA permit at an additional cost of over $1000.
>>>>> Some were scared to death of being stopped by the US Forest Service
>>>>> because their only chance to hike did not conform with the date of
>>>>> their PCTA Long Distance Permit.  They were in genuine fear of having
>>>> their passports confiscated for ?illegal hiking.?
>>>>> Many US and foreign hikers had permits which were at variance with
>> the
>>>>> actual dates of their starts, and many more hiked without a permit of
>>>>> any kind.
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> In 2015 and 2016, the PCTA, on its own authority as trail manager,
>>>>> established a daily quota of 50 Long Distance Permits starting at the
>>>>> border during the height of through-hiker season.  I was told by Beth
>>>>> Boyst, the PCT Trail Manager for the US Forest Service, that the
>> limit
>>>>> of
>>>>> 50 permits per day was her idea, stating also that she arrived at the
>>>>> decision based upon exhaustive research into the increase in hiker
>>>>> numbers experienced during the years 2012-2014, and their attendant
>>>> impact on the
>>>>> first 100 miles of the PCT.   This confused me in that one agency
>>> limited
>>>>> the number of permits and another took credit for the decision, so on
>>>>> April
>>>>> 14 of this year, I submitted a Freedom of Information Act request
>>>>> asking for all documentation discussing or supporting the 50 permit
>>>> daily limit.
>>>>> The US Forest Service reply to my FOIA request providing 4 pages of
>>>>> responsive documents was received on July 7.  I will provide my
>>>>> original FOIA request and the Forest Service?s response by email to
>>>>> anyone who requests them.  I have read these documents many times,
>> and
>>>>> I have found no basis whatsoever for limiting daily hiking permits.
>>>>> This is the official response of the government of the United States
>>>>> to a valid request for information.  By law, it is exhaustive and
>>>>> complete.  There is no more information to consider.  No anecdotes,
>> no
>>>>> feelings, no opinions, no guesses.
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> So, with the 2016 PCT through hiking season drawing to a close, there
>>>>> will be many hikers with recent experiences on the trail who may be
>>>>> willing to share their experiences and offer their opinions regarding
>>>>> the necessity and efficacy of the 2015-2016 permit limitations.  IMO,
>>>>> this is necessary if the PCT hiking community wants to influence the
>>>>> 2017 hiking season on the PCT, either in favor of permit limitations,
>>>>> or opposed to them.  You should not expect to be asked for your
>>>>> experiences and opinions by the US Forest Service or the PCTA.  Some
>>>>> of us recall how the permit limitations were implemented for the past
>>>>> 2 years.  There was no public discussion, there was no opportunity
>> for
>>>>> hikers to state their positions, and there was no advance notice.
>>>>> Hikers first became aware of the 50 permit per day limitation
>>>>> simultaneously with the opening of the issuance of permits by the
>>>>> PCTA.  There is every indication there will be more of the same in
>>>> 2017.  Congratulations to the Class of 2016.  Good Luck to the Class of
>>>>> 2017.   BR
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Pct-L mailing list
>>>>> Pct-L at backcountry.net
>>>>> To unsubscribe, or change options visit:
>>>>> http://mailman.backcountry.net/mailman/listinfo/pct-l
>>>>> 
>>>>> List Archives:
>>>>> http://mailman.backcountry.net/pipermail/pct-l/
>>>>> All content is copyrighted by the respective authors.
>>>>> Reproduction is prohibited without express permission.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> --
>>>> Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't
>> matter
>>>> and those who matter don't mind. ~Dr. Seuss
>>> ______________________________
>>>> _________________
>>>> Pct-L mailing list
>>>> Pct-L at backcountry.net
>>>> To unsubscribe, or change options visit:
>>>> http://mailman.backcountry.net/mailman/listinfo/pct-l
>>>> 
>>>> List Archives:
>>>> http://mailman.backcountry.net/pipermail/pct-l/
>>>> All content is copyrighted by the respective authors.
>>>> Reproduction is prohibited without express permission.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> --
>>> Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter
>>> and those who matter don't mind. ~Dr. Seuss
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Pct-L mailing list
>>> Pct-L at backcountry.net
>>> To unsubscribe, or change options visit:
>>> http://mailman.backcountry.net/mailman/listinfo/pct-l
>>> 
>>> List Archives:
>>> http://mailman.backcountry.net/pipermail/pct-l/
>>> All content is copyrighted by the respective authors.
>>> Reproduction is prohibited without express permission.
>> _______________________________________________
>> Pct-L mailing list
>> Pct-L at backcountry.net
>> To unsubscribe, or change options visit:
>> http://mailman.backcountry.net/mailman/listinfo/pct-l
>> 
>> List Archives:
>> http://mailman.backcountry.net/pipermail/pct-l/
>> All content is copyrighted by the respective authors.
>> Reproduction is prohibited without express permission.
> _______________________________________________
> Pct-L mailing list
> Pct-L at backcountry.net
> To unsubscribe, or change options visit:
> http://mailman.backcountry.net/mailman/listinfo/pct-l
> 
> List Archives:
> http://mailman.backcountry.net/pipermail/pct-l/
> All content is copyrighted by the respective authors.
> Reproduction is prohibited without express permission.

From veselyjames at gmail.com  Wed Sep 28 14:51:42 2016
From: veselyjames at gmail.com (James Vesely)
Date: Wed, 28 Sep 2016 12:51:42 -0700
Subject: [pct-l] Permits 2017
In-Reply-To: <586DA24E-1FA1-4FF5-9C69-8306684614D9@gmail.com>
References: <E08EF1266D2B42569CA3874B5746781D@RobertERiessPC>
 <CAO-n75wC7E5FW+S=TeU3OViOm2eydRUmUgfV2q6e2dvepKjqxQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <BN6PR16MB14411C3D048C09AD2B2D063DA7CF0@BN6PR16MB1441.namprd16.prod.outlook.com>
 <CAO-n75wiomhqsRCm7QX5DEA66kaKLCV55UgU-zTjxQAVXsUUyg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAMxQpswds0W+bv0EWsubmW0+xdjp_3ZVt8ZQwGhZjM0ZbdNtKA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO-n75yvmJi4JuNYk3DZTRXr0DK8MCRvTVH=2-DFsS06VvYgWQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <586DA24E-1FA1-4FF5-9C69-8306684614D9@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAMxQpsziQ9ZsLavn_oT4AiRAF8TP9Wx+0AhveoSb6Cg12tXA9w@mail.gmail.com>

https://www.outsideonline.com/2087776/what-are-all-these-hikers-doing-pct

Is it BS that I was witness to overcrowded trails and  campsites last year
that I have never seen in over 30 years of backpacking?  Let me ask
everyone's opinion?  Would you enjoy backpacking as much if everywhere you
go you were to unable to find a solitary or near solitary place?  Why have
quotas in the first place?
On Sep 28, 2016 12:24 PM, "Sabrina Harrison" <troopharrison at gmail.com>
wrote:

> As are many of you, I'm anxiously awaiting JMT Reinhold's wit and wisdom
> on this
>
> Hacker
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> > On Sep 28, 2016, at 1:25 PM, Cody B <moonbeams13 at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > James,
> >
> > I agree that the system needs improvements, particularly surrounding
> alpine
> > environments which take much longer to rebound from environmental impact
> > than most ecosystems at lower elevations. This is one of those annoying
> > little intersections of science and policy that will probably never have
> a
> > perfect solution and requires an ever-evolving approach. The Southern
> > Terminus permit limit is a good starting point because it addresses the
> > majority of hikers and doesn't dictate things like how fast one has to
> > move. It is minimally intrusive to people's plans compared to quotas that
> > may be implemented along the way. I think that there are a couple ways
> this
> > could be approached in the Sierra, perhaps by utilizing semi-flexible
> > permitting for that section (say ability to enter within a certain range
> of
> > dates depending upon your hiking speed cuz as we all know, things never
> go
> > according to plan), but there is still a lot of work that needs to be
> done
> > before a mid-way restriction could be responsibly implemented.
> >
> > Wikipedia
> >
> >> On Sep 28, 2016 1:02 PM, "James Vesely" <veselyjames at gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> Interesting discussion but it fails to resolve the issue of overuse and
> >> potential negative effects of PCT hikers who are entering high use
> >> wilderness areas such as in Cleveland/Descanso, Mt. San Jacinto
> >> wilderness,  Sierra Nevada mountains and others.
> >>
> >> Large slugs of PCT hikers are entering National Forest, and National
> Park
> >> regions that have very stringent entry quota permits, some of which are
> >> almost impossible to obtain outside of having a "PCT hiking permit".
> I
> >> am aware that not all PCT hikers with "PCT permits" that start at the
> >> Mexican boarder make it to "permit required areas" but a substantial
> number
> >> of hikers that do make it, seem to have a carte blanche pass that allows
> >> them to bypass all entry point quotas for any given day of the week in
> at
> >> any point on the trail system.  Quotas that were setup to reduce impact
> and
> >> crowding are basically worthless when 50 or more (assuming 50/day
> >> separation) are allowed to enter at their convenience.
> >>
> >> A good example of this is what happens in the Sierra Nevada mountains
> >> during the short hiking season.   In the past PCT hikers were fewer in
> >> number and a majority of them would normally have completed the southern
> >> Sierra's by the end of June.  In the year 1993 when the golden spike was
> >> hammered into the ground to commemorate the PCT, 35 people had completed
> >> the trail and in the year 2016 the number was 647.   The total number of
> >> permits issued in 2015 was 4453 and this does not include the hikers,
> whom,
> >> as Brick stated do not bother to get thru-hike permits. The number of
> PCT
> >> hikers will no doubt continue to rise.
> >>
> >> I am a big fan of the PCT and although my attempt at hiking the PCT in
> 1978
> >> failed, I have always thought I would give it another try.  In the mean
> >> time, I still love to do local hikes in the Sierra Nevada mountains and
> >> during one of my hikes last year I saw first hand evidence of huge
> crowds
> >> of hikers (> half were PCT) that I have never seen before.  We all love
> >> backpacking for different reasons but I believe the main reason so many
> of
> >> us enjoy the sport is for the solitude it can offer and for the amazing
> >> uncrowded pristine scenery it can provide.  Having uncontrolled numbers
> of
> >> people entering sensitive back-country wilderness, in what was once a
> >> thoughtfully regulated quota system, can not only damage sensitive
> >> wilderness areas but also make the backpacking experience much less
> >> meaningful.
> >>
> >> The impact of large numbers of hikers that basically game the system and
> >> have legal uncontrolled access to any wilderness area at any time, at
> any
> >> place throughout the summer will have to, someday, be addressed before
> it
> >> destroys all the main reasons we all enjoy the sport of backpacking so
> >> much.   I would love to hear input from the backpack community on
> whether
> >> they believe this is an issue or not and what should be done if
> anything.
> >>
> >>
> >> Concerned hiker.
> >>
> >>> On Tue, Sep 27, 2016 at 11:01 PM, Cody B <moonbeams13 at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Richard -
> >>>
> >>> Permits are required in Yosemite, but not necessarily PCT permits. You
> >>> could have had a wilderness permit specifically for that are issued by
> >> the
> >>> NPS instead.
> >>>
> >>> Wikipedia
> >>>
> >>> On Tue, Sep 27, 2016 at 11:44 PM, Richard Brinkman <
> richardb10 at live.com>
> >>> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> In Yosemite, I was asked by a Ranger to show my PCT thru-hiker permit.
> >>>> Thank goodness I had it, albeit folded in a ziplock.
> >>>>
> >>>> Roadwalker, '15
> >>>>
> >>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>> From: Pct-L [mailto:pct-l-bounces at backcountry.net] On Behalf Of Cody
> B
> >>>> Sent: Tuesday, September 27, 2016 3:39 PM
> >>>> To: Robert E. Riess
> >>>> Cc: PCT-L
> >>>> Subject: Re: [pct-l] Permits 2017
> >>>>
> >>>> BR,
> >>>>
> >>>> The permit limits are in place to protect the fragile environments and
> >>>> ecosystems that the Pacific Crest Trail passes through from overuse by
> >>>> hikers. They are there for a very good reason and it is indeed backed
> >> by
> >>>> research on environmental impact. The first several hundred miles are
> >>>> particularly vulnerable as there are very limited water resources and
> >>> many
> >>>> of them cannot support hundreds of hikers draining them in addition to
> >>>> supplying the necessary water for the native plants and animals.
> >>>>
> >>>> It is possible to hike the PCT legally without a long-distance permit
> >>>> published by the PCTA, but that does require seeking out each permit
> >>>> individually and doing the research on your own. The permit issued by
> >> the
> >>>> PCTA is actually a collection of permits by the National Parks
> Service,
> >>>> State Parks Systems, Forest Service, and others that allows you to
> pass
> >>>> through the entire trail corridor without seeking out each necessary
> >>> permit
> >>>> individually. It is a service provided to us and there is a limit on
> >> that
> >>>> service so that the trail is still there, beautiful, and most
> >>> importantly,
> >>>> usable for years to come.
> >>>>
> >>>> I saw a lot of disregard for permits on the trail this summer and it
> >>>> concerns me. People ranted about "the government trying to control
> >> their
> >>>> rights saying when they can or can't hike" (I would like to note that
> >> the
> >>>> PCTA is not a government organization) while not paying any regard to
> >> the
> >>>> reason those permits are there.
> >>>>
> >>>> PLEASE be conscientious about this. If we aim to be stewards of the
> >>>> environment and participate in LNT practices then paying mind to the
> >>> permit
> >>>> system and the permit limits is extremely important. They are not
> there
> >>> to
> >>>> limit us. They are there to protect us and the beauty we love to
> >> indulge
> >>>> ourselves in.
> >>>>
> >>>> Passionately,
> >>>>
> >>>> Wikipedia
> >>>>
> >>>> On Tue, Sep 27, 2016 at 5:19 PM, Robert E. Riess <
> robert.riess at cox.net
> >>>
> >>>> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> Congratulations to the Class of 2016, who were lucky enough to draw a
> >>>>> PCTA Long Distance Permit starting at the border, and who had no
> >>>>> ADZPCTKO to inspire and enlighten them. I am saddened by what I hope
> >>>>> is a temporary halt to the world-class hiking event which for 17
> >> great
> >>>>> years gave so much to so many, provided by so few, and who did it so
> >>>>> very, very well. I am thankful for the opportunity to have partaken.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Certainly, a 2016 PCT through hike is an accomplishment of great
> >> pride
> >>>>> and satisfaction.  Some were not so fortunate.  Some from overseas
> >>>>> could not get a permit to conform with their travel arrangements and
> >>>>> just gave up on their goal of hiking the PCT in 2016.  At least one
> >>>>> hiker known to me had to cancel his airline ticket and rebook to
> >>>>> conform with his PCTA permit at an additional cost of over $1000.
> >>>>> Some were scared to death of being stopped by the US Forest Service
> >>>>> because their only chance to hike did not conform with the date of
> >>>>> their PCTA Long Distance Permit.  They were in genuine fear of having
> >>>> their passports confiscated for ?illegal hiking.?
> >>>>> Many US and foreign hikers had permits which were at variance with
> >> the
> >>>>> actual dates of their starts, and many more hiked without a permit of
> >>>>> any kind.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> In 2015 and 2016, the PCTA, on its own authority as trail manager,
> >>>>> established a daily quota of 50 Long Distance Permits starting at the
> >>>>> border during the height of through-hiker season.  I was told by Beth
> >>>>> Boyst, the PCT Trail Manager for the US Forest Service, that the
> >> limit
> >>>>> of
> >>>>> 50 permits per day was her idea, stating also that she arrived at the
> >>>>> decision based upon exhaustive research into the increase in hiker
> >>>>> numbers experienced during the years 2012-2014, and their attendant
> >>>> impact on the
> >>>>> first 100 miles of the PCT.   This confused me in that one agency
> >>> limited
> >>>>> the number of permits and another took credit for the decision, so on
> >>>>> April
> >>>>> 14 of this year, I submitted a Freedom of Information Act request
> >>>>> asking for all documentation discussing or supporting the 50 permit
> >>>> daily limit.
> >>>>> The US Forest Service reply to my FOIA request providing 4 pages of
> >>>>> responsive documents was received on July 7.  I will provide my
> >>>>> original FOIA request and the Forest Service?s response by email to
> >>>>> anyone who requests them.  I have read these documents many times,
> >> and
> >>>>> I have found no basis whatsoever for limiting daily hiking permits.
> >>>>> This is the official response of the government of the United States
> >>>>> to a valid request for information.  By law, it is exhaustive and
> >>>>> complete.  There is no more information to consider.  No anecdotes,
> >> no
> >>>>> feelings, no opinions, no guesses.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> So, with the 2016 PCT through hiking season drawing to a close, there
> >>>>> will be many hikers with recent experiences on the trail who may be
> >>>>> willing to share their experiences and offer their opinions regarding
> >>>>> the necessity and efficacy of the 2015-2016 permit limitations.  IMO,
> >>>>> this is necessary if the PCT hiking community wants to influence the
> >>>>> 2017 hiking season on the PCT, either in favor of permit limitations,
> >>>>> or opposed to them.  You should not expect to be asked for your
> >>>>> experiences and opinions by the US Forest Service or the PCTA.  Some
> >>>>> of us recall how the permit limitations were implemented for the past
> >>>>> 2 years.  There was no public discussion, there was no opportunity
> >> for
> >>>>> hikers to state their positions, and there was no advance notice.
> >>>>> Hikers first became aware of the 50 permit per day limitation
> >>>>> simultaneously with the opening of the issuance of permits by the
> >>>>> PCTA.  There is every indication there will be more of the same in
> >>>> 2017.  Congratulations to the Class of 2016.  Good Luck to the Class
> of
> >>>>> 2017.   BR
> >>>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>> Pct-L mailing list
> >>>>> Pct-L at backcountry.net
> >>>>> To unsubscribe, or change options visit:
> >>>>> http://mailman.backcountry.net/mailman/listinfo/pct-l
> >>>>>
> >>>>> List Archives:
> >>>>> http://mailman.backcountry.net/pipermail/pct-l/
> >>>>> All content is copyrighted by the respective authors.
> >>>>> Reproduction is prohibited without express permission.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> --
> >>>> Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't
> >> matter
> >>>> and those who matter don't mind. ~Dr. Seuss
> >>> ______________________________
> >>>> _________________
> >>>> Pct-L mailing list
> >>>> Pct-L at backcountry.net
> >>>> To unsubscribe, or change options visit:
> >>>> http://mailman.backcountry.net/mailman/listinfo/pct-l
> >>>>
> >>>> List Archives:
> >>>> http://mailman.backcountry.net/pipermail/pct-l/
> >>>> All content is copyrighted by the respective authors.
> >>>> Reproduction is prohibited without express permission.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> --
> >>> Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't
> matter
> >>> and those who matter don't mind. ~Dr. Seuss
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> Pct-L mailing list
> >>> Pct-L at backcountry.net
> >>> To unsubscribe, or change options visit:
> >>> http://mailman.backcountry.net/mailman/listinfo/pct-l
> >>>
> >>> List Archives:
> >>> http://mailman.backcountry.net/pipermail/pct-l/
> >>> All content is copyrighted by the respective authors.
> >>> Reproduction is prohibited without express permission.
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Pct-L mailing list
> >> Pct-L at backcountry.net
> >> To unsubscribe, or change options visit:
> >> http://mailman.backcountry.net/mailman/listinfo/pct-l
> >>
> >> List Archives:
> >> http://mailman.backcountry.net/pipermail/pct-l/
> >> All content is copyrighted by the respective authors.
> >> Reproduction is prohibited without express permission.
> > _______________________________________________
> > Pct-L mailing list
> > Pct-L at backcountry.net
> > To unsubscribe, or change options visit:
> > http://mailman.backcountry.net/mailman/listinfo/pct-l
> >
> > List Archives:
> > http://mailman.backcountry.net/pipermail/pct-l/
> > All content is copyrighted by the respective authors.
> > Reproduction is prohibited without express permission.
>

From lucecruz13 at gmail.com  Wed Sep 28 15:22:59 2016
From: lucecruz13 at gmail.com (Luce Cruz)
Date: Wed, 28 Sep 2016 13:22:59 -0700
Subject: [pct-l] Permits 2017
In-Reply-To: <CAMxQpsziQ9ZsLavn_oT4AiRAF8TP9Wx+0AhveoSb6Cg12tXA9w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <E08EF1266D2B42569CA3874B5746781D@RobertERiessPC>
 <CAO-n75wC7E5FW+S=TeU3OViOm2eydRUmUgfV2q6e2dvepKjqxQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <BN6PR16MB14411C3D048C09AD2B2D063DA7CF0@BN6PR16MB1441.namprd16.prod.outlook.com>
 <CAO-n75wiomhqsRCm7QX5DEA66kaKLCV55UgU-zTjxQAVXsUUyg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAMxQpswds0W+bv0EWsubmW0+xdjp_3ZVt8ZQwGhZjM0ZbdNtKA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO-n75yvmJi4JuNYk3DZTRXr0DK8MCRvTVH=2-DFsS06VvYgWQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <586DA24E-1FA1-4FF5-9C69-8306684614D9@gmail.com>
 <CAMxQpsziQ9ZsLavn_oT4AiRAF8TP9Wx+0AhveoSb6Cg12tXA9w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPdO7FwbGngwb5A9D2KMhhun+V02K6CbkYGrsXma8cey8oaqWQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Sep 28, 2016 at 12:51 PM, James Vesely <veselyjames at gmail.com>
wrote:

> https://www.outsideonline.com/2087776/what-are-all-these-hikers-doing-pct
>
>   Let me ask
> everyone's opinion?  Would you enjoy backpacking as much if everywhere you
> go you were to unable to find a solitary or near solitary place?


Since this is a PCT list, ...

Personally, I wouldn't go to the PCT for solitude. There are much more less
advertised and taken advantage of places I go to for that. Before Wild I
reasonably expected to not find solitude on an internationally famous trail.

I understand the desire to save the more wild places from excess humanity,
but that just can't happen on a very thin corridor, the majority of which
is beyond the reach of any normal regulation or law enforcement activities
and access.

Just my opinion, which you asked for.

Luce Cruz, and losing more of 'em as I go

From charlesdstuart at gmail.com  Wed Sep 28 15:23:55 2016
From: charlesdstuart at gmail.com (Charles Stuart)
Date: Wed, 28 Sep 2016 13:23:55 -0700
Subject: [pct-l] Permits 2017
In-Reply-To: <CAMxQpsziQ9ZsLavn_oT4AiRAF8TP9Wx+0AhveoSb6Cg12tXA9w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <E08EF1266D2B42569CA3874B5746781D@RobertERiessPC>
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Message-ID: <CAGiAo_ddNZPMDnff0uaRNmu+hm=7e_OxkojpXNo48WgOm0Q5fA@mail.gmail.com>

This is entirely anecdotal; I have no data:

I spent most of my 2016 thru-hike ahead of the herd. By the end I was
barely ahead, or maybe more accurately in the front half.

During my hike, the only time I had trouble finding campsites or achieving
some degree of solitude was in relatively close proximity to
road-accessible trailheads, and most of the people I met in those areas
were not thru-hikers. This was most true in Washington - the closer I got
to Seattle, the more crowded the trail got. With the possible exception of
areas in SoCal closest to L.A., these were also the most disgustingly
impacted areas of trail in terms of unburied human waste and toilet paper.

I found my experience along the JMT especially interesting. Although I got
there early - I'm pretty sure I ascended Whitney on May 27th - fewer than
half the hikers I met along this heavily-used section of trail were PCT
thru-hikers. And I met a lot of hikers. When I hiked sections of the JMT in
July and August of 1998, I met almost nobody.

Along the entire PCT, the farther I got from road-accessible trailheads,
the less impact I saw, and dramatically so. During the first few hundred
miles of my hike I really thought that most of the impact I saw was the
responsibility of thru-hikers, but the longer I was on trail the less
likely this seemed. Areas free of weekenders and day-hikers seemed much
more pristine, even though there were lots of thru-hikers around.

While it is certainly true that the number of PCT thru-hikers has increased
dramatically in recent years, that isn't enough to conclude that the
crowding and impact problems discussed in this thread are primarily or even
substantially caused by PCT thru-hikers. Use by other categories of hikers
has grown as well. I'm not saying that it isn't caused by thru-hikers, but
I am saying that there's no publicly available, hard evidence that it is.

I'm not going to offer an opinion on the legal or scientific validity of
the current PCTA-issued long-distance permit, because I really haven't
reached a conclusion. I do think that most of this thread hasn't
really addressed the very specific concerns of the original post, which I
took to be the lack of specific evidence supporting the current system, as
well as the misconceptions (perhaps intentionally fostered by people in
positions of authority?) surrounding the legal status of the long-distance
permit.

-Oolong



On Wednesday, September 28, 2016, James Vesely <veselyjames at gmail.com>
wrote:

> https://www.outsideonline.com/2087776/what-are-all-these-hikers-doing-pct
>
> Is it BS that I was witness to overcrowded trails and  campsites last year
> that I have never seen in over 30 years of backpacking?  Let me ask
> everyone's opinion?  Would you enjoy backpacking as much if everywhere you
> go you were to unable to find a solitary or near solitary place?  Why have
> quotas in the first place?
> On Sep 28, 2016 12:24 PM, "Sabrina Harrison" <troopharrison at gmail.com
> <javascript:;>>
> wrote:
>
> > As are many of you, I'm anxiously awaiting JMT Reinhold's wit and wisdom
> > on this
> >
> > Hacker
> >
> > Sent from my iPhone
> >
> > > On Sep 28, 2016, at 1:25 PM, Cody B <moonbeams13 at gmail.com
> <javascript:;>> wrote:
> > >
> > > James,
> > >
> > > I agree that the system needs improvements, particularly surrounding
> > alpine
> > > environments which take much longer to rebound from environmental
> impact
> > > than most ecosystems at lower elevations. This is one of those annoying
> > > little intersections of science and policy that will probably never
> have
> > a
> > > perfect solution and requires an ever-evolving approach. The Southern
> > > Terminus permit limit is a good starting point because it addresses the
> > > majority of hikers and doesn't dictate things like how fast one has to
> > > move. It is minimally intrusive to people's plans compared to quotas
> that
> > > may be implemented along the way. I think that there are a couple ways
> > this
> > > could be approached in the Sierra, perhaps by utilizing semi-flexible
> > > permitting for that section (say ability to enter within a certain
> range
> > of
> > > dates depending upon your hiking speed cuz as we all know, things never
> > go
> > > according to plan), but there is still a lot of work that needs to be
> > done
> > > before a mid-way restriction could be responsibly implemented.
> > >
> > > Wikipedia
> > >
> > >> On Sep 28, 2016 1:02 PM, "James Vesely" <veselyjames at gmail.com
> <javascript:;>> wrote:
> > >>
> > >> Interesting discussion but it fails to resolve the issue of overuse
> and
> > >> potential negative effects of PCT hikers who are entering high use
> > >> wilderness areas such as in Cleveland/Descanso, Mt. San Jacinto
> > >> wilderness,  Sierra Nevada mountains and others.
> > >>
> > >> Large slugs of PCT hikers are entering National Forest, and National
> > Park
> > >> regions that have very stringent entry quota permits, some of which
> are
> > >> almost impossible to obtain outside of having a "PCT hiking permit".
> > I
> > >> am aware that not all PCT hikers with "PCT permits" that start at the
> > >> Mexican boarder make it to "permit required areas" but a substantial
> > number
> > >> of hikers that do make it, seem to have a carte blanche pass that
> allows
> > >> them to bypass all entry point quotas for any given day of the week in
> > at
> > >> any point on the trail system.  Quotas that were setup to reduce
> impact
> > and
> > >> crowding are basically worthless when 50 or more (assuming 50/day
> > >> separation) are allowed to enter at their convenience.
> > >>
> > >> A good example of this is what happens in the Sierra Nevada mountains
> > >> during the short hiking season.   In the past PCT hikers were fewer in
> > >> number and a majority of them would normally have completed the
> southern
> > >> Sierra's by the end of June.  In the year 1993 when the golden spike
> was
> > >> hammered into the ground to commemorate the PCT, 35 people had
> completed
> > >> the trail and in the year 2016 the number was 647.   The total number
> of
> > >> permits issued in 2015 was 4453 and this does not include the hikers,
> > whom,
> > >> as Brick stated do not bother to get thru-hike permits. The number of
> > PCT
> > >> hikers will no doubt continue to rise.
> > >>
> > >> I am a big fan of the PCT and although my attempt at hiking the PCT in
> > 1978
> > >> failed, I have always thought I would give it another try.  In the
> mean
> > >> time, I still love to do local hikes in the Sierra Nevada mountains
> and
> > >> during one of my hikes last year I saw first hand evidence of huge
> > crowds
> > >> of hikers (> half were PCT) that I have never seen before.  We all
> love
> > >> backpacking for different reasons but I believe the main reason so
> many
> > of
> > >> us enjoy the sport is for the solitude it can offer and for the
> amazing
> > >> uncrowded pristine scenery it can provide.  Having uncontrolled
> numbers
> > of
> > >> people entering sensitive back-country wilderness, in what was once a
> > >> thoughtfully regulated quota system, can not only damage sensitive
> > >> wilderness areas but also make the backpacking experience much less
> > >> meaningful.
> > >>
> > >> The impact of large numbers of hikers that basically game the system
> and
> > >> have legal uncontrolled access to any wilderness area at any time, at
> > any
> > >> place throughout the summer will have to, someday, be addressed before
> > it
> > >> destroys all the main reasons we all enjoy the sport of backpacking so
> > >> much.   I would love to hear input from the backpack community on
> > whether
> > >> they believe this is an issue or not and what should be done if
> > anything.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Concerned hiker.
> > >>
> > >>> On Tue, Sep 27, 2016 at 11:01 PM, Cody B <moonbeams13 at gmail.com
> <javascript:;>>
> > wrote:
> > >>>
> > >>> Richard -
> > >>>
> > >>> Permits are required in Yosemite, but not necessarily PCT permits.
> You
> > >>> could have had a wilderness permit specifically for that are issued
> by
> > >> the
> > >>> NPS instead.
> > >>>
> > >>> Wikipedia
> > >>>
> > >>> On Tue, Sep 27, 2016 at 11:44 PM, Richard Brinkman <
> > richardb10 at live.com <javascript:;>>
> > >>> wrote:
> > >>>
> > >>>> In Yosemite, I was asked by a Ranger to show my PCT thru-hiker
> permit.
> > >>>> Thank goodness I had it, albeit folded in a ziplock.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Roadwalker, '15
> > >>>>
> > >>>> -----Original Message-----
> > >>>> From: Pct-L [mailto:pct-l-bounces at backcountry.net <javascript:;>]
> On Behalf Of Cody
> > B
> > >>>> Sent: Tuesday, September 27, 2016 3:39 PM
> > >>>> To: Robert E. Riess
> > >>>> Cc: PCT-L
> > >>>> Subject: Re: [pct-l] Permits 2017
> > >>>>
> > >>>> BR,
> > >>>>
> > >>>> The permit limits are in place to protect the fragile environments
> and
> > >>>> ecosystems that the Pacific Crest Trail passes through from overuse
> by
> > >>>> hikers. They are there for a very good reason and it is indeed
> backed
> > >> by
> > >>>> research on environmental impact. The first several hundred miles
> are
> > >>>> particularly vulnerable as there are very limited water resources
> and
> > >>> many
> > >>>> of them cannot support hundreds of hikers draining them in addition
> to
> > >>>> supplying the necessary water for the native plants and animals.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> It is possible to hike the PCT legally without a long-distance
> permit
> > >>>> published by the PCTA, but that does require seeking out each permit
> > >>>> individually and doing the research on your own. The permit issued
> by
> > >> the
> > >>>> PCTA is actually a collection of permits by the National Parks
> > Service,
> > >>>> State Parks Systems, Forest Service, and others that allows you to
> > pass
> > >>>> through the entire trail corridor without seeking out each necessary
> > >>> permit
> > >>>> individually. It is a service provided to us and there is a limit on
> > >> that
> > >>>> service so that the trail is still there, beautiful, and most
> > >>> importantly,
> > >>>> usable for years to come.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> I saw a lot of disregard for permits on the trail this summer and it
> > >>>> concerns me. People ranted about "the government trying to control
> > >> their
> > >>>> rights saying when they can or can't hike" (I would like to note
> that
> > >> the
> > >>>> PCTA is not a government organization) while not paying any regard
> to
> > >> the
> > >>>> reason those permits are there.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> PLEASE be conscientious about this. If we aim to be stewards of the
> > >>>> environment and participate in LNT practices then paying mind to the
> > >>> permit
> > >>>> system and the permit limits is extremely important. They are not
> > there
> > >>> to
> > >>>> limit us. They are there to protect us and the beauty we love to
> > >> indulge
> > >>>> ourselves in.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Passionately,
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Wikipedia
> > >>>>
> > >>>> On Tue, Sep 27, 2016 at 5:19 PM, Robert E. Riess <
> > robert.riess at cox.net <javascript:;>
> > >>>
> > >>>> wrote:
> > >>>>
> > >>>>> Congratulations to the Class of 2016, who were lucky enough to
> draw a
> > >>>>> PCTA Long Distance Permit starting at the border, and who had no
> > >>>>> ADZPCTKO to inspire and enlighten them. I am saddened by what I
> hope
> > >>>>> is a temporary halt to the world-class hiking event which for 17
> > >> great
> > >>>>> years gave so much to so many, provided by so few, and who did it
> so
> > >>>>> very, very well. I am thankful for the opportunity to have
> partaken.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> Certainly, a 2016 PCT through hike is an accomplishment of great
> > >> pride
> > >>>>> and satisfaction.  Some were not so fortunate.  Some from overseas
> > >>>>> could not get a permit to conform with their travel arrangements
> and
> > >>>>> just gave up on their goal of hiking the PCT in 2016.  At least one
> > >>>>> hiker known to me had to cancel his airline ticket and rebook to
> > >>>>> conform with his PCTA permit at an additional cost of over $1000.
> > >>>>> Some were scared to death of being stopped by the US Forest Service
> > >>>>> because their only chance to hike did not conform with the date of
> > >>>>> their PCTA Long Distance Permit.  They were in genuine fear of
> having
> > >>>> their passports confiscated for ?illegal hiking.?
> > >>>>> Many US and foreign hikers had permits which were at variance with
> > >> the
> > >>>>> actual dates of their starts, and many more hiked without a permit
> of
> > >>>>> any kind.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> In 2015 and 2016, the PCTA, on its own authority as trail manager,
> > >>>>> established a daily quota of 50 Long Distance Permits starting at
> the
> > >>>>> border during the height of through-hiker season.  I was told by
> Beth
> > >>>>> Boyst, the PCT Trail Manager for the US Forest Service, that the
> > >> limit
> > >>>>> of
> > >>>>> 50 permits per day was her idea, stating also that she arrived at
> the
> > >>>>> decision based upon exhaustive research into the increase in hiker
> > >>>>> numbers experienced during the years 2012-2014, and their attendant
> > >>>> impact on the
> > >>>>> first 100 miles of the PCT.   This confused me in that one agency
> > >>> limited
> > >>>>> the number of permits and another took credit for the decision, so
> on
> > >>>>> April
> > >>>>> 14 of this year, I submitted a Freedom of Information Act request
> > >>>>> asking for all documentation discussing or supporting the 50 permit
> > >>>> daily limit.
> > >>>>> The US Forest Service reply to my FOIA request providing 4 pages of
> > >>>>> responsive documents was received on July 7.  I will provide my
> > >>>>> original FOIA request and the Forest Service?s response by email to
> > >>>>> anyone who requests them.  I have read these documents many times,
> > >> and
> > >>>>> I have found no basis whatsoever for limiting daily hiking permits.
> > >>>>> This is the official response of the government of the United
> States
> > >>>>> to a valid request for information.  By law, it is exhaustive and
> > >>>>> complete.  There is no more information to consider.  No anecdotes,
> > >> no
> > >>>>> feelings, no opinions, no guesses.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> So, with the 2016 PCT through hiking season drawing to a close,
> there
> > >>>>> will be many hikers with recent experiences on the trail who may be
> > >>>>> willing to share their experiences and offer their opinions
> regarding
> > >>>>> the necessity and efficacy of the 2015-2016 permit limitations.
> IMO,
> > >>>>> this is necessary if the PCT hiking community wants to influence
> the
> > >>>>> 2017 hiking season on the PCT, either in favor of permit
> limitations,
> > >>>>> or opposed to them.  You should not expect to be asked for your
> > >>>>> experiences and opinions by the US Forest Service or the PCTA.
> Some
> > >>>>> of us recall how the permit limitations were implemented for the
> past
> > >>>>> 2 years.  There was no public discussion, there was no opportunity
> > >> for
> > >>>>> hikers to state their positions, and there was no advance notice.
> > >>>>> Hikers first became aware of the 50 permit per day limitation
> > >>>>> simultaneously with the opening of the issuance of permits by the
> > >>>>> PCTA.  There is every indication there will be more of the same in
> > >>>> 2017.  Congratulations to the Class of 2016.  Good Luck to the Class
> > of
> > >>>>> 2017.   BR
> > >>>>> _______________________________________________
> > >>>>> Pct-L mailing list
> > >>>>> Pct-L at backcountry.net <javascript:;>
> > >>>>> To unsubscribe, or change options visit:
> > >>>>> http://mailman.backcountry.net/mailman/listinfo/pct-l
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> List Archives:
> > >>>>> http://mailman.backcountry.net/pipermail/pct-l/
> > >>>>> All content is copyrighted by the respective authors.
> > >>>>> Reproduction is prohibited without express permission.
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>> --
> > >>>> Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't
> > >> matter
> > >>>> and those who matter don't mind. ~Dr. Seuss
> > >>> ______________________________
> > >>>> _________________
> > >>>> Pct-L mailing list
> > >>>> Pct-L at backcountry.net <javascript:;>
> > >>>> To unsubscribe, or change options visit:
> > >>>> http://mailman.backcountry.net/mailman/listinfo/pct-l
> > >>>>
> > >>>> List Archives:
> > >>>> http://mailman.backcountry.net/pipermail/pct-l/
> > >>>> All content is copyrighted by the respective authors.
> > >>>> Reproduction is prohibited without express permission.
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>> --
> > >>> Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't
> > matter
> > >>> and those who matter don't mind. ~Dr. Seuss
> > >>> _______________________________________________
> > >>> Pct-L mailing list
> > >>> Pct-L at backcountry.net <javascript:;>
> > >>> To unsubscribe, or change options visit:
> > >>> http://mailman.backcountry.net/mailman/listinfo/pct-l
> > >>>
> > >>> List Archives:
> > >>> http://mailman.backcountry.net/pipermail/pct-l/
> > >>> All content is copyrighted by the respective authors.
> > >>> Reproduction is prohibited without express permission.
> > >> _______________________________________________
> > >> Pct-L mailing list
> > >> Pct-L at backcountry.net <javascript:;>
> > >> To unsubscribe, or change options visit:
> > >> http://mailman.backcountry.net/mailman/listinfo/pct-l
> > >>
> > >> List Archives:
> > >> http://mailman.backcountry.net/pipermail/pct-l/
> > >> All content is copyrighted by the respective authors.
> > >> Reproduction is prohibited without express permission.
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Pct-L mailing list
> > > Pct-L at backcountry.net <javascript:;>
> > > To unsubscribe, or change options visit:
> > > http://mailman.backcountry.net/mailman/listinfo/pct-l
> > >
> > > List Archives:
> > > http://mailman.backcountry.net/pipermail/pct-l/
> > > All content is copyrighted by the respective authors.
> > > Reproduction is prohibited without express permission.
> >
> _______________________________________________
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> To unsubscribe, or change options visit:
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From necarsulmer at mac.com  Wed Sep 28 23:43:16 2016
From: necarsulmer at mac.com (Peter Necarsulmer)
Date: Wed, 28 Sep 2016 21:43:16 -0700
Subject: [pct-l] 52 years later, I tried Trail Runners...
In-Reply-To: <206e01d219b3$24dcb490$6e961db0$@mountaineducation.org>
References: <206e01d219b3$24dcb490$6e961db0$@mountaineducation.org>
Message-ID: <9B5958D6-BFD8-4AF0-B935-C1C0556E242C@mac.com>

Another excellent, non-ideological set of reporting and insights from Ned.  The Ryan Jordan's (whom I admire) of this world would be so much more credible if they adopted a similar style.  Thanks Ned. 

Peter Necarsulmer- Escargot
necarsulmer at mac.com

> On Sep 28, 2016, at 11:07 AM, ned at mountaineducation.org wrote:
> 
> [Sorry for the cross-posting, first of all. Some of Mountain Education's
> students and followers do not "do" Facebook, so I repost here for them.]
> 
> ***
> 
> 
> 
> I'm a heavy leather boot fan. Always have been. 
> 
> 
> 
> But, I took a pair of trail runners out for a "test-drive" the other day...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> First, a little bit about my trail experience:
> 
> 
> 
> - I did the PCT (1974) and CDT (1980) in the same boot (had to change soles
> only twice in nearly 6,000 miles while the uppers fit like a glove). A nice
> cost savings.
> 
> 
> 
> - For the past 34 years, I'm out on-trail an average of 150 days a year
> teaching wilderness safety skills in these wonders of durable design and
> they "work" great for me. 
> 
> 
> 
> - In those 34 years I've purchased 3 pairs of new boots and have never
> gotten a single blister nor had to go through any sort of protracted boot
> "break-in" to make them ready for the trail. (However, back in 1974 when I
> did the PCT, the Vasque boots I used did require extensive pre-trail
> softening with oil and walking just to get them to flex. Thankfully, boots
> are built better these days!)
> 
> 
> 
> - Believe it or not, I actually like the weight on my feet! It adds what I
> call "swing-weight" to my leg action and I step farther...but I have long
> legs, anyway. Come April, when I transition off snowshoes and put on my
> hiking boots again, my legs get used to the weight over the first few days
> on trail and all feels good.
> 
> 
> 
> - On steep downhills with my heavy pack, I pound down on top of all sorts of
> big and little rocks, sharp pointy rocks, rock edges, branches, roots, and
> even slippery scree and don't feel any impact on my plantar fascia, balls of
> feet, or heels. The low, soft Achilles tendon panel sits just right so it
> doesn't dig into the tendon and cause tendonitis (this did happen once with
> one design and brought a trip to a sudden halt, sending me limping home).
> 
> 
> 
> - Because I teach my students to "Look up" to enjoy the scenery we're hiking
> through, some of my attention is not focused on obstacles and hazards in the
> trail, so my feet tend to crash into things as demonstrated by all the
> gashes and punctures around the leather toe box. I wouldn't have it any
> other way. I'm partly out there for the view. Who wants to stare at the
> trail all day while walking...?
> 
> - Creek crossings are simple. I walk right through them, have great
> traction, and don't worry about punctures or cuts. After changing sock sets
> on the other side, my boots dry out in a few miles, even when on snow.
> (You'll need to keep the outside of your boots waterproof and don't trust
> Gore-Tex in footwear).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Most of my students don't get it. They firmly believe that trail runner
> footwear is the only way to hike! Other things encourage us to try the new
> fad (from my point of view), as well, 1. you read the pro-trail-runner rants
> on social media, 2. all the footprints on the trail are made by trail
> runners, and 3. you don't want to feel different. you read the
> pro-trail-runner rants on social media and all the footprints on the trail
> are made by trail runners. 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So, recently, I "test-drove" a pair of popular trail runners and this is
> what I noticed:
> 
> 
> 
> 1. The shoes were amazingly light and I felt like my feet could fly around
> in any direction. This was novel and fun, but I felt vulnerable.
> 
> 
> 
> 2. Every little rock impacted straight into my arch, heel, and ball of my
> foot. I had to watch the trailbed pretty closely to avoid anything
> protruding that could hurt my feet if I stepped on it. Basically, I had to
> be more careful about where I stepped and most of the time that took
> emergency "collision avoidance maneuvers." By the time the hike was over, my
> feet were pretty sore. (I think over a long hike you might get used to
> paying this kind of attention to the trailbed).
> 
> 
> 
> 3. Although the shoe had a Vibram sole, it was very flexible and could twist
> easily, so it couldn't hold an edge on rocks or snow. Where I had to step on
> steeply inclined rock or snow, the shoe would roll flat and tend to slip,
> especially on scree or snow.
> 
> 
> 
> 4. Where the trail became very narrow and tall-ish boulders lined the route,
> my exposed ankle bones got cut up pretty good. 
> 
> 
> 
> 5. During one creek-crossing, the soft sole of one shoe got wedged between
> two boulders in thigh-deep whitewater and the shoe pulled off, mid-stream!
> Luckily it stayed there long enough for me to limp tenderly through the rest
> of the stream, avoiding some of the sharper rocks and pointy sticks on the
> creek bottom, to drop my pack on the other side and return into the creek to
> rescue the shoe. 
> 
> 
> 
> 6. The soft uppers of the shoes did not do well with abrasion on granite,
> either, as some of the stitching and fabric panels showed small tears,
> especially near the little toes and along the sides of the toe box. 
> 
> 
> 
> 7. Vulcanized rubber soles can either de-laminate from the uppers at the
> little toe flex area or separate from the mid-sole over time and miles. This
> did not happen to me on this maiden voyage, but I've seen it plague
> long-distance thru hikers in the past, forcing them off-trail to find a new
> pair. (Heavy leather boots often have their soles stitched via a "Norwegian
> welt" to their uppers, thus making sole replacement easily done by most any
> cobbler near the trail). 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What you choose to wear is a very personal decision. The only real way to
> find out what "works" for you is to try out different designs, like with
> tents, stoves, sleeping pads and bags, and even food, then make up your own
> mind! 
> 
> 
> 
> These were my observations about hiking in trail runners in the high Sierra
> above 10,000 feet while carrying my usual "heavy-trucker" pack. I would
> imagine that if your pack was lighter, impacts to the plantar aspect of the
> foot and its tendons and fascia would not be so risky or painful.
> 
> 
> 
> So, be picky! Test different styles and designs on trailbed similar to what
> you expect on the more rugged sections of the route you want to hike. Any
> shoe is going to feel great in a city park, but take it on a test-hike up to
> the weathered trails at 11,000 or 12,000 feet and see how it treats you.
> This way you won't go through the painful-feet stage at the beginning of
> most thru hikes and you can enjoy the journey from start to finish!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ned Tibbits, Director
> 
> Mountain Education, Inc.
> 
> ned at mountaineducation.org <mailto:ned at mountaineducation.org>  
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Pct-L mailing list
> Pct-L at backcountry.net
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> 
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> Reproduction is prohibited without express permission.

From troopharrison at gmail.com  Thu Sep 29 10:38:01 2016
From: troopharrison at gmail.com (Sabrina Harrison)
Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2016 10:38:01 -0500
Subject: [pct-l] Incompetent veins
Message-ID: <D53EA776-AF60-4C30-87C9-A08DE3424D7F@gmail.com>

Hey everybody!

As if life post-40 and the rigor of a household with four children is not challenging enough, I've recently been diagnosed with "incompetent veins." Like most incompetent things, I guess they've been slacking behind the scenes because I haven't been able to tell yet. It was like a medical bait and switch. I went in for one issue, and they discovered that instead. 

My doctor, (whose veins are extremely competent) would like me to "take it easy" and "not stress the system."  He would also like me to wear compression socks 100% of the time, or as close to it as I can stand. He is talking about mindfulness to the level that, should I decide to go on a 3 hour roadtrip, I would bring my compression socks. I didn't have the heart to tell him I have aspirations of through hiking the PCT in 10 years, along with some LASH's as I wait.

I told you this, partly to amuse myself, perhaps to amuse you a little bit, and also to ask for people to chime in if they have any advice on distance hiking with incompetent veins.

Cheers, 
Hacker

Sent from my iPhone

From geraldbking at gmail.com  Thu Sep 29 12:22:53 2016
From: geraldbking at gmail.com (Jerry's gmail)
Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2016 10:22:53 -0700
Subject: [pct-l] Incompetent veins
In-Reply-To: <D53EA776-AF60-4C30-87C9-A08DE3424D7F@gmail.com>
References: <D53EA776-AF60-4C30-87C9-A08DE3424D7F@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5A9C1949-621E-41B8-8806-5AE7B966500C@gmail.com>

Remember to mail that doctor a postcard from Stehekin! ?

> On Sep 29, 2016, at 8:38 AM, Sabrina Harrison <troopharrison at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Hey everybody!
> 
> As if life post-40 and the rigor of a household with four children is not challenging enough, I've recently been diagnosed with "incompetent veins." Like most incompetent things, I guess they've been slacking behind the scenes because I haven't been able to tell yet. It was like a medical bait and switch. I went in for one issue, and they discovered that instead. 
> 
> My doctor, (whose veins are extremely competent) would like me to "take it easy" and "not stress the system."  He would also like me to wear compression socks 100% of the time, or as close to it as I can stand. He is talking about mindfulness to the level that, should I decide to go on a 3 hour roadtrip, I would bring my compression socks. I didn't have the heart to tell him I have aspirations of through hiking the PCT in 10 years, along with some LASH's as I wait.
> 
> I told you this, partly to amuse myself, perhaps to amuse you a little bit, and also to ask for people to chime in if they have any advice on distance hiking with incompetent veins.
> 
> Cheers, 
> Hacker
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> _______________________________________________
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> Pct-L at backcountry.net
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> All content is copyrighted by the respective authors.
> Reproduction is prohibited without express permission.

From marmotwestvanc at hotmail.com  Thu Sep 29 13:09:15 2016
From: marmotwestvanc at hotmail.com (marmot marmot)
Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2016 18:09:15 +0000
Subject: [pct-l] Incompetent veins
In-Reply-To: <D53EA776-AF60-4C30-87C9-A08DE3424D7F@gmail.com>
References: <D53EA776-AF60-4C30-87C9-A08DE3424D7F@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CY1PR20MB02651B9B4D68C1DEA220546AC8CE0@CY1PR20MB0265.namprd20.prod.outlook.com>

I honestly have no idea what this medical challenge entails. 
But,I wanted you to know that I did my first long trail at 42. 16,000 miles later I'm still hiking.  Doing 20-25 mile days. I don't do big miles cause speed hiking doesn't interest me. That's not a dump on the people to whom speed is important. I just love to wander. It's so different from my job. I move someone else' speed at work. But for at least 2-3 months a year I get to see,absorb and observe each tiny pebble ,flower and leaf that I pass.  I can't move faster and see what I want to see. Some people can. It's the one time in the year that I don't push myself. 
Right now,for the first time ever, I am dealing with being injured on a trail. Fell badly off some boulders --now have 5 broken ribs. Can't wait to get into rehab so that I can put a pack on again. Have to get those core muscles back in shape after doing nothing for over month. I'm waiting for doctor's permission to exercise. At this point I can't even drive. Don't want to rebreak the ribs by putting stress on them before they are completely healed. 
Hope you are able to get out there again soon. Someone will have a solution. It may take a lot of work and changes in diet and exercise.  People with lots of health challenges have done long trails. Diabetics, hikers with prosthetics,people with MS,blind hikers-- the list is endless. 
Marmot

Sent from my iPhone

> On Sep 29, 2016, at 8:38 AM, Sabrina Harrison <troopharrison at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Hey everybody!
> 
> As if life post-40 and the rigor of a household with four children is not challenging enough, I've recently been diagnosed with "incompetent veins." Like most incompetent things, I guess they've been slacking behind the scenes because I haven't been able to tell yet. It was like a medical bait and switch. I went in for one issue, and they discovered that instead. 
> 
> My doctor, (whose veins are extremely competent) would like me to "take it easy" and "not stress the system."  He would also like me to wear compression socks 100% of the time, or as close to it as I can stand. He is talking about mindfulness to the level that, should I decide to go on a 3 hour roadtrip, I would bring my compression socks. I didn't have the heart to tell him I have aspirations of through hiking the PCT in 10 years, along with some LASH's as I wait.
> 
> I told you this, partly to amuse myself, perhaps to amuse you a little bit, and also to ask for people to chime in if they have any advice on distance hiking with incompetent veins.
> 
> Cheers, 
> Hacker
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> _______________________________________________
> Pct-L mailing list
> Pct-L at backcountry.net
> To unsubscribe, or change options visit:
> http://mailman.backcountry.net/mailman/listinfo/pct-l
> 
> List Archives:
> http://mailman.backcountry.net/pipermail/pct-l/
> All content is copyrighted by the respective authors.
> Reproduction is prohibited without express permission.

From marmotwestvanc at hotmail.com  Thu Sep 29 13:15:18 2016
From: marmotwestvanc at hotmail.com (marmot marmot)
Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2016 18:15:18 +0000
Subject: [pct-l] Aldhawest Gathering
Message-ID: <CY1PR20MB0265A8936A4ABBF559FE8ADEC8CE0@CY1PR20MB0265.namprd20.prod.outlook.com>

Remember that the Gathering this weekend. Look at the Aldhawest website. Those of you in Calif we won't be back here for three more years. It's your chance to experience a wonderful weekend. 
We'll be giving out Triple Crowns. Good for a lot of cheering and tears. 
Marmot

Sent from my iPhone

From troopharrison at gmail.com  Thu Sep 29 10:27:15 2016
From: troopharrison at gmail.com (Sabrina Harrison)
Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2016 10:27:15 -0500
Subject: [pct-l] 52 years later, I tried Trail Runners...
In-Reply-To: <9B5958D6-BFD8-4AF0-B935-C1C0556E242C@mac.com>
References: <206e01d219b3$24dcb490$6e961db0$@mountaineducation.org>
 <9B5958D6-BFD8-4AF0-B935-C1C0556E242C@mac.com>
Message-ID: <23C311AA-3B3F-4998-8A75-8E2F679438AF@gmail.com>

Just curious Ned, what's your brand of choice?

Sent from my iPhone

> On Sep 28, 2016, at 11:43 PM, Peter Necarsulmer <necarsulmer at mac.com> wrote:
> 
> Another excellent, non-ideological set of reporting and insights from Ned.  The Ryan Jordan's (whom I admire) of this world would be so much more credible if they adopted a similar style.  Thanks Ned. 
> 
> Peter Necarsulmer- Escargot
> necarsulmer at mac.com
> 
>> On Sep 28, 2016, at 11:07 AM, ned at mountaineducation.org wrote:
>> 
>> [Sorry for the cross-posting, first of all. Some of Mountain Education's
>> students and followers do not "do" Facebook, so I repost here for them.]
>> 
>> ***
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> I'm a heavy leather boot fan. Always have been. 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> But, I took a pair of trail runners out for a "test-drive" the other day...
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> First, a little bit about my trail experience:
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> - I did the PCT (1974) and CDT (1980) in the same boot (had to change soles
>> only twice in nearly 6,000 miles while the uppers fit like a glove). A nice
>> cost savings.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> - For the past 34 years, I'm out on-trail an average of 150 days a year
>> teaching wilderness safety skills in these wonders of durable design and
>> they "work" great for me. 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> - In those 34 years I've purchased 3 pairs of new boots and have never
>> gotten a single blister nor had to go through any sort of protracted boot
>> "break-in" to make them ready for the trail. (However, back in 1974 when I
>> did the PCT, the Vasque boots I used did require extensive pre-trail
>> softening with oil and walking just to get them to flex. Thankfully, boots
>> are built better these days!)
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> - Believe it or not, I actually like the weight on my feet! It adds what I
>> call "swing-weight" to my leg action and I step farther...but I have long
>> legs, anyway. Come April, when I transition off snowshoes and put on my
>> hiking boots again, my legs get used to the weight over the first few days
>> on trail and all feels good.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> - On steep downhills with my heavy pack, I pound down on top of all sorts of
>> big and little rocks, sharp pointy rocks, rock edges, branches, roots, and
>> even slippery scree and don't feel any impact on my plantar fascia, balls of
>> feet, or heels. The low, soft Achilles tendon panel sits just right so it
>> doesn't dig into the tendon and cause tendonitis (this did happen once with
>> one design and brought a trip to a sudden halt, sending me limping home).
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> - Because I teach my students to "Look up" to enjoy the scenery we're hiking
>> through, some of my attention is not focused on obstacles and hazards in the
>> trail, so my feet tend to crash into things as demonstrated by all the
>> gashes and punctures around the leather toe box. I wouldn't have it any
>> other way. I'm partly out there for the view. Who wants to stare at the
>> trail all day while walking...?
>> 
>> - Creek crossings are simple. I walk right through them, have great
>> traction, and don't worry about punctures or cuts. After changing sock sets
>> on the other side, my boots dry out in a few miles, even when on snow.
>> (You'll need to keep the outside of your boots waterproof and don't trust
>> Gore-Tex in footwear).
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Most of my students don't get it. They firmly believe that trail runner
>> footwear is the only way to hike! Other things encourage us to try the new
>> fad (from my point of view), as well, 1. you read the pro-trail-runner rants
>> on social media, 2. all the footprints on the trail are made by trail
>> runners, and 3. you don't want to feel different. you read the
>> pro-trail-runner rants on social media and all the footprints on the trail
>> are made by trail runners. 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> So, recently, I "test-drove" a pair of popular trail runners and this is
>> what I noticed:
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 1. The shoes were amazingly light and I felt like my feet could fly around
>> in any direction. This was novel and fun, but I felt vulnerable.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 2. Every little rock impacted straight into my arch, heel, and ball of my
>> foot. I had to watch the trailbed pretty closely to avoid anything
>> protruding that could hurt my feet if I stepped on it. Basically, I had to
>> be more careful about where I stepped and most of the time that took
>> emergency "collision avoidance maneuvers." By the time the hike was over, my
>> feet were pretty sore. (I think over a long hike you might get used to
>> paying this kind of attention to the trailbed).
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 3. Although the shoe had a Vibram sole, it was very flexible and could twist
>> easily, so it couldn't hold an edge on rocks or snow. Where I had to step on
>> steeply inclined rock or snow, the shoe would roll flat and tend to slip,
>> especially on scree or snow.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 4. Where the trail became very narrow and tall-ish boulders lined the route,
>> my exposed ankle bones got cut up pretty good. 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 5. During one creek-crossing, the soft sole of one shoe got wedged between
>> two boulders in thigh-deep whitewater and the shoe pulled off, mid-stream!
>> Luckily it stayed there long enough for me to limp tenderly through the rest
>> of the stream, avoiding some of the sharper rocks and pointy sticks on the
>> creek bottom, to drop my pack on the other side and return into the creek to
>> rescue the shoe. 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 6. The soft uppers of the shoes did not do well with abrasion on granite,
>> either, as some of the stitching and fabric panels showed small tears,
>> especially near the little toes and along the sides of the toe box. 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 7. Vulcanized rubber soles can either de-laminate from the uppers at the
>> little toe flex area or separate from the mid-sole over time and miles. This
>> did not happen to me on this maiden voyage, but I've seen it plague
>> long-distance thru hikers in the past, forcing them off-trail to find a new
>> pair. (Heavy leather boots often have their soles stitched via a "Norwegian
>> welt" to their uppers, thus making sole replacement easily done by most any
>> cobbler near the trail). 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> What you choose to wear is a very personal decision. The only real way to
>> find out what "works" for you is to try out different designs, like with
>> tents, stoves, sleeping pads and bags, and even food, then make up your own
>> mind! 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> These were my observations about hiking in trail runners in the high Sierra
>> above 10,000 feet while carrying my usual "heavy-trucker" pack. I would
>> imagine that if your pack was lighter, impacts to the plantar aspect of the
>> foot and its tendons and fascia would not be so risky or painful.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> So, be picky! Test different styles and designs on trailbed similar to what
>> you expect on the more rugged sections of the route you want to hike. Any
>> shoe is going to feel great in a city park, but take it on a test-hike up to
>> the weathered trails at 11,000 or 12,000 feet and see how it treats you.
>> This way you won't go through the painful-feet stage at the beginning of
>> most thru hikes and you can enjoy the journey from start to finish!
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Ned Tibbits, Director
>> 
>> Mountain Education, Inc.
>> 
>> ned at mountaineducation.org <mailto:ned at mountaineducation.org>  
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> Pct-L mailing list
>> Pct-L at backcountry.net
>> To unsubscribe, or change options visit:
>> http://mailman.backcountry.net/mailman/listinfo/pct-l
>> 
>> List Archives:
>> http://mailman.backcountry.net/pipermail/pct-l/
>> All content is copyrighted by the respective authors.
>> Reproduction is prohibited without express permission.
> _______________________________________________
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> To unsubscribe, or change options visit:
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> 
> List Archives:
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> All content is copyrighted by the respective authors.
> Reproduction is prohibited without express permission.

From ned at mountaineducation.org  Fri Sep 30 13:10:46 2016
From: ned at mountaineducation.org (ned at mountaineducation.org)
Date: Fri, 30 Sep 2016 11:10:46 -0700
Subject: [pct-l] Trailside repairs: Pack fabric and bear story
Message-ID: <016201d21b45$f7dffa30$e79fee90$@mountaineducation.org>

[.reposted for those who don't "do" Facebook.]





Your backpack is your house. It has everything you need nicely tucked away
inside. However, sometimes animals need what's inside, too!





We tend to think that it is impenetrable, wonderfully made, and strong
enough to take all the punishment we might throw at it, but what
inexperience or denial doesn't consider are claws and teeth!





My pack's biggest enemies on my PCT and CDT thru hikes were the mice,
marmots, chipmunks, and assorted ground squirrels that had no reservations
about using their teeth to chew their way through tough, old-school nylon to
investigate something that smelled edible inside. 





For these little repairs, I've always carried a strong sewing needle and
thick pack thread. These little critters don't do tremendous damage, so this
repair just takes maybe a half-hour, once you calm down and stop throwing
rocks at every mouse or chipmunk you see nearby.





However, I would suggest that you carry with you bigger patches of nylon
fabric or tape for when bears decide your house is their lunchbox!





One of my first encounters with bears on a thru hike was not on-trail at
all, but in a National Park campground one late April, 1974. (go figure.!)





For the first 800 miles of the PCT, I slept "cowboy-style" outside on my
tent or inside it with my pack leaning nicely against a tree near the tent
door, where I could easily see it. We didn't have bear canisters back then,
so the pack was usually full of all my food for my typical 17-day segments.
I never had a problem with "the locals" trying to get my food to that point,
but Park bears were about to teach me my first lesson!





I awoke, not long after I went to sleep, to the sounds of nylon being ripped
and shredded alternating with grunts and snorts from some big animal outside
in the dark. At first I wasn't sure what was going on, as I attempted to
extricate myself from my sleeping bag. 





I listened intently. The snorts and snuffles were deep and loud implying
something big was near my tent. The ripping sounds were like the screams of
a friend being attacked!





I scrambled out of my tent and couldn't see a thing. There was no moon and I
was camped under lots of tall pines. The sound was coming from somewhere
right in front of me. Of course, when I turned my puny flashlight on, I saw
my pack lying on its frame in the dirt totally disfigured and disemboweled
with wrappers and plastic bags lying shredded and partially eaten scattered
nearby. 





Towering astraddle the pack were two glowing eyes about garbage-can-height
off the ground. I couldn't see the black, furry body in the dark. The bear,
fresh out of its winter hibernation, looked at me and went back to its
dinner of my dream-hike-sustaining food. 





Swirling feelings of anger, bewilderment, and frustration clouded my
thoughts all at the same time. I didn't know what to do. I watched. Then I
thought I could scare the bear away from further killing my close companion
by advancing on it with my ice axe.





The bear did stop shredding, chewing, and drooling to look up at me as I got
closer while yelling, and waving some apparent stick in the air.
Defensively, it quickly hopped off the pack and made a short charge toward
me, then abruptly stopped while snorting loudly. I stopped and stood still.
It went back to its dinner, probably angry at me for even thinking I could
take it away from him.





Threats didn't work. Yelling did nothing. Then I thought of throwing rocks
at him. The little ones close to me made quiet little thumps on his body and
looked the size of mosquitoes when they hit. These didn't even faze him. 





Then I grabbed the rocks from the fire ring, some being the size of
footballs, and those disturbed him a bit more. At first, I could tell that
he didn't know what to make of the sudden pain coming from nowhere. He
stopped chewing and looked around. The second rock hit him and he moved off
of the dead pack. The third one gave him enough incentive to move a little
further away, yet still looking around for his attacker. Upon the thump of
the fourth rock, he decided to surrender his prized dinner discovery and
reluctantly sauntered off into the dark of the forest.





My house-on-my-back looked like it had been hit by a Kansas tornado!
Multi-colored dinner and candy wrappers were thrown by the devilish twister
in all directions around my home. The fabric of the pack was avulsed, its
strong threads dangling like electrical wires from a ripped and tossed
building wall. Though I had a hiking partner, I suddenly felt all alone.
What now?





I had thought to put our packs in someone's car for the rest of the night
(which we would do 5 months later after the next bear attack), but no one
else was in the early-season campground to ask for help. So, unable to think
of any other solution, we put them on the roof of the nearby outhouse and
tried to go back to sleep.





It took me two days to sew my home back together again.

 

 

 

Ned Tibbits, Director

Mountain Education, Inc.

ned at mountaineducation.org <mailto:ned at mountaineducation.org>