From reinholdmetzger at cox.net Thu Nov 3 01:56:34 2016 From: reinholdmetzger at cox.net (Reinhold Metzger) Date: Wed, 2 Nov 2016 23:56:34 -0700 Subject: [pct-l] Weather watch now, Class of 17 Message-ID: <4e9a4a17-641a-af81-8034-64ab3ca31339@cox.net> Hi Gang, Trouble is back in town,...the girls are dancing in the streets,..the guys are gnashing their teeth. Yes Rob, in the Sierra, at high elevation it can snow at any time of the year. Like I said, I have hiked the Sierra since 1968 and been been snowed on in the summer, at high elevations, on more than one occasion. As a matter of fact, my first hiking experience in the Sierra was in the 1964-65 winter during 6 weeks of USMC cold weather mountain warfare training at the USMC cold weather training camp at Pickle Meadows, near Bridgeport, in the Sierra. Man, it was cold,....we even crawled into our sleeping bags with our boots on. Let me tell you, it was not fun.....we almost froze to death. The USMC does not put much weight on comfort...."Survive Baby...Just Survive" that's all that matters. There is good logic behind that...you don't get troops ready for the misery of war by keeping them comfortable. The more misery they get exposed to the better they will be able to cope with the miseries of war when war comes. There is a USMC saying...."The more you sweat in peace, the less you bleed in war." The above, to some extend, probably also applies to recreational hiking. The harder you train and push yourself and the more you expose yourself to the conditions you will encounter on the trail, the more prepared you will be to handle the challenges on the trail. Below is a condensed snow history for Mammoth Mountain, in the heart of the Sierra, that will give you an idea of the amount of total snow Mammoth may get during a winter season and the amount of snow Mammoth may get, in the Summer, prior to October. TOTAL SNOW FOR WINTER SEASON: 2004-05...570", 2005-06...578", 2008-09...470" 2009-10...557", 2010-11...668", 2012-13...308", 2013-14...238", 2014-15...176", 2015-16...361". PRE-OCTOBER SNOW FOR WINTER SEASON: 1969...22", 1970...60"...1971...22" 1972...4", 1973...45", 1974...15", 1975...27", 1976...4", 1977...4", 1979...23" 1980...4" 1982...13", 1983...19", 1984...6", 1986...5", 1991...17", 1996...5", 1998...5", 2002...3" 2003...6", 2007...10. As you can see, snow in the Sierra is hard to predict...just remember, in the Sierra, at high elevation, you can get snowed on any time of the year JMT Reinhold .................................................... Rob wrote: The first time I remember being snowed on was the 9th of August, just south of Red Peak Pass in southern Yosemite National Park. It only snowed a few inches, but it was enough to make the point that it can snow any time of year. Rob .................................. JMT Reinhold wrote: Ned, You are absolutely correct. Does the window close in October?....of course not. But the potential for snow, especially light snow, increases at high elevations after September and if a hiker is anticipating snow free conditions and is not prepared for snow it can make his journey less than pleasant if he encounters snow and I like to make my backpacking adventures pleasant. It may rain at 8,000 feet and be freezing rain or snow at 12,000 feet. I have hiked the Sierra extensively since 1968 and have encountered snow in the middle of summer on more than one occasion. About 10 years ago on one of my JMT hikes, between Guitar Lake and Whitney, my home made tenant collapsed on me in the middle of the night under the weight of wet snow in late August or early September. It snowed all night and needless to say I was not a happy camper. It rained at lower elevations but snowed at the high elevation where I camped that night. I learned my lesson that night, about 10 years ago, that is why I like to get through the Sierra before October. Of course, like you say, the Sierra window is open past September but the hiker needs to be aware and prepared for the potential of freezing rain and snow at high elevations. JMT Reinhold Your happy trail companion ..................................... Ned wrote: Thanks, Reinhold, for all your support and encouragement over the years! I stretch the time frame to mid-November because most of the storms that hit the Sierra early, September thru November, are usually less than a foot in quantity and melt off within a day or so of the sun coming out. This is not based on any statistics, but rather my own on-trail experience during those months. However, you'll see below, that I have revised my recommended time frames. [Dittli, would you concur?] Let's look at the SoBo thru hike time window respective of powder snow "bookends," At the Pacific Northwest end... Light Winter: consider a mid-June start Average Winter: consider a July 4th start (based on the recommendations by locals) Heavy Winter: consider an August 1st start At the Sierra end... (again, these dates are based on living in the Sierra for the past 30 years. A statistician can refine this...) Early Winter: ski areas open on Thanksgiving Average Winter: ski areas open for Christmas Late Winter: ski areas make snow for Christmas and pray for snow in January People need to realize that storms track three ways on the coast, - hit to the north, Portland and Seattle, and miss the Sierra - hit both the north and south, tracking down the coast on its way east - hit the south and miss the north. Therefore, one end is usually hit harder than the other. So, it becomes a gamble what you'll get when doing your planning months ahead of a hike! Start dates SoBo have to be flexible and hikers have to be patient for safe trail conditions. The longer you wait to start, the more consolidated will be the snow and with wisdom, the safer you may be. So, let's put together the 9 possibilities: (Premise: 1 month for Washington, 1 month for Oregon, 1 month for NorCal, and then they are in the Sierra at Donner) 1. PNW post-average winter to Sierra average winter start: - July 4th to November 1st (5 months of trail time) - Meaning: hikers start on steep, slippery, consolidated snow and go through the Sierra under a moderate threat of light snow. 2. PNW post-average winter to Sierra late winter start: - July 4th to mid-November (4.5 months) - Meaning: hikers start on steep, slippery, consolidated snow and go through the Sierra under a light-moderate threat of light snow. 3. PNW post-average winter to Sierra early winter start: - July 4th to mid-October (3.5 months) - Meaning: hikers start on steep, slippery, consolidated snow and go through the Sierra under a moderate threat of light/heavy snow. 4. PNW post-light winter to Sierra late winter start: - Mid-June to mid-November (5 months) - Meaning: hikers will start on a thinner snowpack of steep, slippery snow and go through the Sierra under a mild threat of light snow. 5 & 6 7. PNW post-heavy winter to Sierra early winter start: - August 1st to mid-October (2.5 months) - Meaning: hikers will start on steep, slippery consolidated snow and have a moderate threat of snow in the northern Sierra and a pretty good chance of deeper powder snow in the higher Sierra that may stop them in their tracks. 8 & 9 I'm not going to extrapolate all of them. You can see where I'm going. SoBo hikers will have to do their best with the hiking season they get, being aware of what can happen weather-wise in fall season Sierra. Ned Tibbits, Director Mountain Education, Inc. ned at mountaineducation.org ...................................................... Listen to what Ned is saying gang,....Ned knows what he is talking about. He is the expert when it comes to hiking in snow. The only thing I would like to point out is that I always prefer and recommend getting through the Sierra by the end of September. The Sierra, because of its elevation, is a different kind of a beast. It can snow in the Sierra at any time of the year, even in the middle of summer...I have gotten snowed on in the Sierra in the middle of the summer on more than one occasion. However, after September, the chance of new snow in the Sierra increases drastically, changes the whole equation, and you better be prepared for serious snow hiking. Scott Williamson, with 14 PCT thru-hikes (16 counting section hikes), including 2 PCT yo-yo thru-hikes, and 3 prior PCT speed records, the undeniable, unquestionable, indisputable "KING" of the PCT had to bail out and abandon 2 other yo-yo attempts, in prior years, because he got back to the Sierra to late, after it already started snowing, on his way back to the Mexican border. Like I said, the equation changes dramatically ones it starts snowing in the Sierra....that is why I prefer to get through the Sierra before October. JMT Reinhold ............................................................ Class of '17! I want you to pay attention to the weather this September-November because, for the majority of you, these are the months in which you'll be ending your thru hikes next year. Watch, now, to be ready, then. Doesn't matter whether you are planning on going NoBo or SoBo, watch how the weather comes in this fall and how the high country along the PCT transitions to winter. What you see this year, you may experience next year. (Of course, this is not always true, but be aware, nonetheless, to help make your planning decisions). The points are, - NoBo: Get to Manning by mid-September and - SoBo: Get through the Sierra by mid-November to avoid cold, wet, and maybe deep powder snow keeping you from your dream of completing a thru hike of the Pacific Crest Trail. The premise is this, - Fall and winter weather bring cold, lots of damp, and maybe freezing rain or powder snow. The human body does not do well in this environment without help and that needs to be anticipated by having an awareness of it. If you spend too much time while NoBo along the trail in the south and find yourself way behind schedule, these conditions can and have stopped many a thru hiker just shy of their goal after working towards it for months. If you want a fun and successful thru hike, among many things, know what you're up against and prepare for them, know your self and why you're there, practice the skills required to overcome expected adversity and challenge (personal/internal and environmental/external), and take lots of progressively longer hikes, ending with one that is as exposed as the PCT and long enough to require a resupply (3 weeks). You will be hearing more advice from me as your start dates get nearer, as I want all of you to have the fun and safe life-changing wilderness journeys you hope for, but those come with planning grounded in reality! I will be talking more about the "Realities of the Trail" over the next few months. Ned Tibbits, Director Mountain Education, Inc. --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From necarsulmer at mac.com Fri Nov 4 10:06:14 2016 From: necarsulmer at mac.com (Peter Necarsulmer) Date: Fri, 04 Nov 2016 08:06:14 -0700 Subject: [pct-l] Woman pleads guilty to defacing rocks at 7 national parks In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <272233C2-9780-4F29-AA39-D3AA39AA561A@mac.com> "Lock her up! Lock her up!" Peter Necarsulmer necarsulmer at mac.com Peter.Necarsulmer at hkstrategies.com +1-202-430-4211 > On Jun 13, 2016, at 6:30 PM, Doug Swam wrote: > > Seems she got off easy > > > https://www.yahoo.com/news/woman-pleads-guilty-defacing-rocks-7-national-parks-004020708.html?ref=gs > Woman pleads guilty to defacing rocks at 7 national parks > www.yahoo.com > FRESNO, Calif. (AP) - A San Diego woman who painted and drew on treasured natural rock formations at national parks across the West and shared her work on social media pleaded guilty Monday to defacing government property. > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Pct-L mailing list > Pct-L at backcountry.net > To unsubscribe, or change options visit: > http://mailman.backcountry.net/mailman/listinfo/pct-l > > List Archives: > http://mailman.backcountry.net/pipermail/pct-l/ > All content is copyrighted by the respective authors. > Reproduction is prohibited without express permission. From edjarrett at msn.com Fri Nov 4 11:49:53 2016 From: edjarrett at msn.com (Ed Jarrett) Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2016 16:49:53 +0000 Subject: [pct-l] Quincy to Burney Falls Late July In-Reply-To: <95E93E88-D5D2-4C2E-A863-8EF0907085C1@centurylink.net> References: <95E93E88-D5D2-4C2E-A863-8EF0907085C1@centurylink.net> Message-ID: I started south from Sierra City in early July this year and did not have much in the way of mosquitoes or gnats except for a couple of nights. Those I met coming north pretty consistently told me the bugs were just over the next hill, but I never found them. Maybe a different tolerance level. Ed Jarrett (Eeyore) Web site: http://aclayjar.net Twitter: https://twitter.com/EdJarrett53 Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/ed.jarrett.71 ________________________________ From: Pct-L on behalf of River Malcolm Sent: Sunday, June 12, 2016 8:28 PM To: pct-l at backcountry.net Subject: [pct-l] Quincy to Burney Falls Late July Hello Trail Friends and Mentors I hope to hike Quincy to Burney Falls in late July this summer. Does anyone know whether the bugs, mosquitos especially, are likely to be an issue in late July in this section? Your advice will help me plan clothes (with/without insect guard) and also whether to carry nets and spray. I am one of those hikers the mosquitos really like. :-) Thank you so much for any light you cAn shed. River Sent from my iPhone _______________________________________________ Pct-L mailing list Pct-L at backcountry.net To unsubscribe, or change options visit: http://mailman.backcountry.net/mailman/listinfo/pct-l List Archives: http://mailman.backcountry.net/pipermail/pct-l/ All content is copyrighted by the respective authors. Reproduction is prohibited without express permission. From nordic.chris at gmail.com Fri Nov 4 14:05:46 2016 From: nordic.chris at gmail.com (Chris Caviezel) Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2016 12:05:46 -0700 Subject: [pct-l] MISSING PCT HIKER - SHERPA Message-ID: Not sure if this has been posted in this thread or not. There is a missing hiker since October 12, Sherpa Additional info here: https://www.facebook.com/groups/1841283189418601/ Last seen October 12 in White Pass Possible sighting on October 23/24 near blowout mountain. From jodyinjc at yahoo.com Fri Nov 4 18:41:00 2016 From: jodyinjc at yahoo.com (jody boyles) Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2016 16:41:00 -0700 Subject: [pct-l] MISSING PCT HIKER - SHERPA In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0FC6AF0D-1B2E-4EC7-8A14-E225FC49B5EA@yahoo.com> Let's hope he is found soon :-((( Thanks for posting here Chris. Tail gater Sent from my iPhone > On Nov 4, 2016, at 12:05 PM, Chris Caviezel wrote: > > Not sure if this has been posted in this thread or not. > > There is a missing hiker since October 12, Sherpa > > Additional info here: > > https://www.facebook.com/groups/1841283189418601/ > > > Last seen October 12 in White Pass Possible sighting on October 23/24 near > blowout mountain. > _______________________________________________ > Pct-L mailing list > Pct-L at backcountry.net > To unsubscribe, or change options visit: > http://mailman.backcountry.net/mailman/listinfo/pct-l > > List Archives: > http://mailman.backcountry.net/pipermail/pct-l/ > All content is copyrighted by the respective authors. > Reproduction is prohibited without express permission. From virgil at baloney.com Fri Nov 4 19:00:29 2016 From: virgil at baloney.com (virgil) Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2016 17:00:29 -0700 Subject: [pct-l] Article in the Seattle Times about Kris Fowler (sherpa) missing in the N Cascades. Message-ID: <201611041700.29274.virgil@baloney.com> Its been very wet, but not particularly cold yet. http://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/northwest/pacific-crest-hiker-is-missing-near-white-pass/?utm_source=RSS&utm_medium=Referral&utm_campaign=RSS_all From groundpounderbill22 at verizon.net Fri Nov 4 21:33:48 2016 From: groundpounderbill22 at verizon.net (groundpounderbill22) Date: Fri, 04 Nov 2016 19:33:48 -0700 Subject: [pct-l] Fw: Hat Creek Rim Message-ID: Sent from my Verizon LG Smartphone ------ Original message------From: JoAnn Date: Fri, Nov 4, 2016 16:13To: pct-l at mailman.backcountry.net;pct-l at backcountry.net;Cc: Subject:[pct-l] Hat Creek Rim JoAnn,Could you do me a favor? I tried to post this on the PCT-L on Monday and nothing happened. In fact, I haven?t gotten an email from PCT-L since June 10. I don?t know if there?s something wrong with them, or something wrong with my computer. If you could send this off to the PCT-L for me, that would be most helpful. And, have you gotten anything since June 10 from them??Best,SusanHat Creek RimA friend and I are planning to hike from Old Station to Burney Falls State Park starting on June 22. Has anyone gone that way yet this year? Any issues with the trail? Does anyone know how hard it is to go down on a side trail to Lost Creek to get water? Is there a lot of poison oak? Anything else we should know? Thanks much. (I?ve already hiked the entire trail north of Burney Falls ? just trying to get through this part before it gets broiling hot ? and then hope to do M with Jesse & Char from Vancouver, BC.)?Susan from Spokane_____________________________ __________________Pct-L mailing listPct-L at backcountry.netTo unsubscribe, or change options visit:http://mailman.backcountry.net/mailman/listinfo/pct-lList Archives:http://mailman.backcountry.net/pipermail/pct-l/All content is copyrighted by the respective authors.Reproduction is prohibited without express permission. From sarahegan at shaw.ca Sat Nov 5 13:11:00 2016 From: sarahegan at shaw.ca (Sarah Egan) Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2016 12:11:00 -0600 (MDT) Subject: [pct-l] Pct-L Digest, Vol 104, Issue 2 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1153285083.47435043.1478369460760.JavaMail.zimbra@shaw.ca> Why am I receiving messages from back in June? ----- Original Message ----- From: pct-l-request at backcountry.net To: pct-l at backcountry.net Sent: Sat, 05 Nov 2016 11:00:27 -0600 (MDT) Subject: Pct-L Digest, Vol 104, Issue 2 Send Pct-L mailing list submissions to pct-l at backcountry.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://mailman.backcountry.net/mailman/listinfo/pct-l or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to pct-l-request at backcountry.net You can reach the person managing the list at pct-l-owner at backcountry.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Pct-L digest..." Please DELETE the copy of the complete digest from your reply. ONLY include stuff that applies to your reply Today's Topics: 1. Re: Desert Hiking Advice (Jim Faris) 2. Test (Reinhold Metzger) 3. test (Brick Robbins) 4. Hat Creek Rim (JoAnn) 5. Hat Creek Rim (JoAnn) 6. new fire at Campo (Jim & Jane Moody) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2016 14:02:16 +0000 (UTC) From: Jim Faris To: marmot marmot , Robert , "pct-l @backcountry.net" Subject: Re: [pct-l] Desert Hiking Advice Message-ID: <170901673.4277853.1466085736948.JavaMail.yahoo at mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 call a trail angel , i bet they would help you out On Saturday, February 20, 2016 3:00 PM, marmot marmot wrote: It's unnecessary to hike to border and back. Check out the bus schedule to and from Campo to the lake? Also you could leave the car at Lake Morena in the pay lot( I think it's $3 a day)hike north to Mt Laguna from there it's an easy hitch back to Lake Morena? That should give you a better sense what you can do. It's a lot easier in the desert than you think. Carry a litre of water for every 5 miles. Hard to get lost from border to Lake Morena so night hiking possible if you are going when it's very hot. The only place that it is somewhat confusing is when you hit the dirt road. Pass the weird sign and stay on the road to the right until you get to the obvious trail down to Hauser Creek? People get lost when they try to go down too soon. Get Halfmiles app Marmot Sent from my iPhone > On Feb 20, 2016, at 1:52 PM, Robert wrote: > > Thanks to all for your advice on gaining some desert hiking experience. Here is my latest thought. We'd rent a car in San Diego and drive to Lake Morena where we'd park the car. Then we'd take a couple of days to hike south to Campo and back to Lake Morena. The we'd hike north from the lake to an yet-to be-determined point where we'd hike back to Lake Morena. Having the car and doing 'out and backs' gives us the flexibility we may need if we find desert hiking to be more arduous than we are used to. Do you think that there is a place to leave a car at Lake Morena? Would there a better point on the trail close to San Diego to leave the car and do hike multiple day 'out and backs'. > > Thanks in advance, > Rob > _______________________________________________ > Pct-L mailing list > Pct-L at backcountry.net > To unsubscribe, or change options visit: > http://mailman.backcountry.net/mailman/listinfo/pct-l > > List Archives: > http://mailman.backcountry.net/pipermail/pct-l/ > All content is copyrighted by the respective authors. > Reproduction is prohibited without express permission. _______________________________________________ Pct-L mailing list Pct-L at backcountry.net To unsubscribe, or change options visit: http://mailman.backcountry.net/mailman/listinfo/pct-l List Archives: http://mailman.backcountry.net/pipermail/pct-l/ All content is copyrighted by the respective authors. Reproduction is prohibited without express permission. ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2016 10:36:33 -0700 From: Reinhold Metzger To: PCT Subject: [pct-l] Test Message-ID: <184e69a7-6666-0e15-48f6-15c0a20244e0 at cox.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Test --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus ------------------------------ Message: 3 Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2016 10:55:52 -0700 From: Brick Robbins To: PCT Subject: [pct-l] test Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 please disregard. ------------------------------ Message: 4 Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2016 08:39:20 -0700 From: "JoAnn" To: , Subject: [pct-l] Hat Creek Rim Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" JoAnn, Could you do me a favor? I tried to post this on the PCT-L on Monday and nothing happened. In fact, I haven?t gotten an email from PCT-L since June 10. I don?t know if there?s something wrong with them, or something wrong with my computer. If you could send this off to the PCT-L for me, that would be most helpful. And, have you gotten anything since June 10 from them?? Best, Susan Hat Creek Rim A friend and I are planning to hike from Old Station to Burney Falls State Park starting on June 22. Has anyone gone that way yet this year? Any issues with the trail? Does anyone know how hard it is to go down on a side trail to Lost Creek to get water? Is there a lot of poison oak? Anything else we should know? Thanks much. (I?ve already hiked the entire trail north of Burney Falls ? just trying to get through this part before it gets broiling hot ? and then hope to do M with Jesse & Char from Vancouver, BC.) ?Susan from Spokane ------------------------------ Message: 5 Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2016 08:39:20 -0700 From: "JoAnn" To: , Subject: [pct-l] Hat Creek Rim Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" JoAnn, Could you do me a favor? I tried to post this on the PCT-L on Monday and nothing happened. In fact, I haven?t gotten an email from PCT-L since June 10. I don?t know if there?s something wrong with them, or something wrong with my computer. If you could send this off to the PCT-L for me, that would be most helpful. And, have you gotten anything since June 10 from them?? Best, Susan Hat Creek Rim A friend and I are planning to hike from Old Station to Burney Falls State Park starting on June 22. Has anyone gone that way yet this year? Any issues with the trail? Does anyone know how hard it is to go down on a side trail to Lost Creek to get water? Is there a lot of poison oak? Anything else we should know? Thanks much. (I?ve already hiked the entire trail north of Burney Falls ? just trying to get through this part before it gets broiling hot ? and then hope to do M with Jesse & Char from Vancouver, BC.) ?Susan from Spokane ------------------------------ Message: 6 Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2016 20:31:23 +0000 (UTC) From: Jim & Jane Moody To: Pct-L Subject: [pct-l] new fire at Campo Message-ID: <1123184579.44546011.1466368283780.JavaMail.zimbra at comcast.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Here's the link from San Diego paper. http://www.nbcsandiego.com/news/local/Firefighters-Battling-Small-Wildland-Fire-Near-US-Mexico-Border-383557671.html Mango ------------------------------ Subject: Digest Footer _______________________________________________ Pct-L mailing list Pct-L at backcountry.net To unsubscribe, or change options visit: http://mailman.backcountry.net/mailman/listinfo/pct-l List Archives: http://mailman.backcountry.net/pipermail/pct-l/ All content is copyrighted by the respective authors. Reproduction is prohibited without express permission. ------------------------------ End of Pct-L Digest, Vol 104, Issue 2 ************************************* From brick at brickrobbins.com Sat Nov 5 16:19:57 2016 From: brick at brickrobbins.com (Brick Robbins) Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2016 14:19:57 -0700 Subject: [pct-l] Messages from last June showing up today Message-ID: On Sat, Nov 5, 2016 at 11:11 AM, Sarah Egan wrote: > Why am I receiving messages from back in June? I am not sure. We are looking into it From troopharrison at gmail.com Sat Nov 5 16:59:46 2016 From: troopharrison at gmail.com (Sabrina Harrison) Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2016 16:59:46 -0500 Subject: [pct-l] Messages from last June showing up today In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <429BAC91-1913-43E0-A9C9-AF30EB012280@gmail.com> I was super relieved to notice it was from June because I thought it was a new forest fire! Sent from my iPhone > On Nov 5, 2016, at 4:19 PM, Brick Robbins wrote: > >> On Sat, Nov 5, 2016 at 11:11 AM, Sarah Egan wrote: >> Why am I receiving messages from back in June? > > > I am not sure. > We are looking into it > _______________________________________________ > Pct-L mailing list > Pct-L at backcountry.net > To unsubscribe, or change options visit: > http://mailman.backcountry.net/mailman/listinfo/pct-l > > List Archives: > http://mailman.backcountry.net/pipermail/pct-l/ > All content is copyrighted by the respective authors. > Reproduction is prohibited without express permission. From reinholdmetzger at cox.net Sun Nov 6 06:10:46 2016 From: reinholdmetzger at cox.net (Reinhold Metzger) Date: Sun, 6 Nov 2016 04:10:46 -0800 Subject: [pct-l] Messages from last June Message-ID: Sarah, You may want to ask Ed Jarret that question. Seems to me that Ed's November 4 post was a reply to and included River Malcom's June 12 post about Burney Falls. JMT Reinhold ................................................. Sarah wrote ct-l] Pct-L Digest, Vol 104, Issue 2*Sarah Egan*sarahegan at shaw.ca /Sat Nov 5 13:11:00 CDT 2016/ * Previous message (by thread):[pct-l] Fw: Hat Creek Rim * Next message (by thread):[pct-l] Messages from last June showing up today * *Messages sorted by:*[ date ] [ thread ] [ subject ] [ author ] ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Why am I receiving messages from back in June? --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From reinholdmetzger at cox.net Sun Nov 6 06:56:35 2016 From: reinholdmetzger at cox.net (Reinhold Metzger) Date: Sun, 6 Nov 2016 04:56:35 -0800 Subject: [pct-l] MISSING PCT HIKER - SHERPA Message-ID: <01814bd5-3e9a-44e0-305c-d1303e3b464a@cox.net> I sure hope Kris exchanged those sandals for hiking boots before it started snowing. Missing for 25 days, this time of the year, in snowy terrain like that, does not look good. I hope he is found soon but, like I said, it does not look good. JMT Reinhold --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From mel at tungate.com Sun Nov 6 09:30:47 2016 From: mel at tungate.com (Mel) Date: Sun, 6 Nov 2016 07:30:47 -0800 Subject: [pct-l] MISSING PCT HIKER - SHERPA In-Reply-To: <01814bd5-3e9a-44e0-305c-d1303e3b464a@cox.net> References: <01814bd5-3e9a-44e0-305c-d1303e3b464a@cox.net> Message-ID: <77B9DC1F-10F2-47B2-8F6B-1D55291F78C2@tungate.com> He had a pair of shoes as he left Packwood Mel > On Nov 6, 2016, at 4:56 AM, Reinhold Metzger wrote: > > I sure hope Kris exchanged those sandals for hiking boots before it started snowing. > Missing for 25 days, this time of the year, in snowy terrain like that, does not look good. > I hope he is found soon but, like I said, it does not look good. > > JMT Reinhold > > --- > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > https://www.avast.com/antivirus > > _______________________________________________ > Pct-L mailing list > Pct-L at backcountry.net > To unsubscribe, or change options visit: > http://mailman.backcountry.net/mailman/listinfo/pct-l > > List Archives: > http://mailman.backcountry.net/pipermail/pct-l/ > All content is copyrighted by the respective authors. > Reproduction is prohibited without express permission. > From vanvelzer at charter.net Sun Nov 6 10:55:11 2016 From: vanvelzer at charter.net (Gail) Date: Sun, 06 Nov 2016 17:55:11 +0100 Subject: [pct-l] Quincy to Burney Falls Late July In-Reply-To: <95E93E88-D5D2-4C2E-A863-8EF0907085C1@centurylink.net> References: <95E93E88-D5D2-4C2E-A863-8EF0907085C1@centurylink.net> Message-ID: <4f94b287-64c4-4a21-bfb8-0711381792a7@getmailbird.com> My niece happens to have her Masters in biology, specializing in mosquitos. ?She said that the buggers are attracted to carbon dioxide....so stop breathing! ?LOL! ?Obviously, that can't happen, but different people do give off differing amounts of CO2 through their skin. ?Anything you do to stop that transpiration will help. Golly On 11/4/2016 3:40:56 PM, River Malcolm wrote: Hello Trail Friends and Mentors I hope to hike Quincy to Burney Falls in late July this summer. Does anyone know whether the bugs, mosquitos especially, are likely to be an issue in late July in this section? Your advice will help me plan clothes (with/without insect guard) and also whether to carry nets and spray. I am one of those hikers the mosquitos really like. :-) Thank you so much for any light you cAn shed. River Sent from my iPhone _______________________________________________ Pct-L mailing list Pct-L at backcountry.net To unsubscribe, or change options visit: http://mailman.backcountry.net/mailman/listinfo/pct-l List Archives: http://mailman.backcountry.net/pipermail/pct-l/ All content is copyrighted by the respective authors. Reproduction is prohibited without express permission. From ned at mountaineducation.org Sun Nov 6 17:46:22 2016 From: ned at mountaineducation.org (ned at mountaineducation.org) Date: Sun, 6 Nov 2016 15:46:22 -0800 Subject: [pct-l] Tent Design for Happy Hikes (part 2) Message-ID: <2ead01d23887$fb43a320$f1cae960$@mountaineducation.org> (As we published Part-3 the other day, I realized that those who don't do Facebook haven't been kept up to date with all of our recent articles! Photos are at the school's FB page. Here's Part-2 regarding tents): [First, the classic disclaimer: We are not tent designers nor are we tent manufacturers in any way. What follows are just our observations and opinions on tent design, function, and performance after watching and using many in the field over our 34 as a wilderness school. We solely hope this helps you make an educated decision when you come to purchasing a tent.] The Outside World: If a tent is an enclosed, portable shelter from the elements, what do you think those elements will be on your next trip? Find out! - Research the comments from others who've been there at the same time of year (better yet, from those who work there every year!) to read what they had to deal with. - Go there on a short trip to experience the area for yourself. (However, realize that what you read from someone else's singular experience there or find out for yourself may not be what confronts you next time. Such is mountain weather! That's why we say, "Plan for the worst and hope for the best.") Know in advance what you'll likely be hiking into. Select a tent design that can handle it. Next, know yourself! - If you love to sleep, having a warm, dry, secure shelter from the raging storm outside is paramount to your happiness. Since mountain storms can develop unexpectedly, you need a shelter that can protect you from nasty weather! - If you don't mind sleeping out in the open, exposed to the elements and animals, and are willing to have a wet and cold night once in a while, then maybe a simple tarp will do for you. Know in advance what you want a tent to provide for you. How will it handle: - Weather: Do you expect to deal with bad wind, rain, hail, snow, blowing sand, thunder and lightning, hot sun, or ice? How well your tent functions in these situations and conditions may dictate which tent to buy! The designs that work will be talked about below. If you opt for a tarp because you don't mind risking getting wet and cold occasionally, make sure you'll have the likelihood to stay warm during the event and to dry out after. - Bugs & Animals: As you will find out, it is the little pests (mice, ground squirrels, chipmunks, ants, scorpions, mosquitoes, crickets, etc.) that get into everything, including your tent. So, if getting a good night's sleep requires these be kept at bay, you'll want a tent that can be zipped tight with a tub floor and raised doors (zipper that is off the ground). Remember to close the door behind you! Bears? If you keep your food (and the smell of it) in a bear canister far from your tent, you needn't worry. Experience will dictate, also. - Campsites: The location of and activities within your campsite may influence your choice of tent design, too! 1. If your campsites will be above timberline and exposed to wind-driven rain, hail, or snow, you will relish a strong, multi-pole design. If you will be in a lot of hot sun, you might want a light color or mostly netting on walls and roof to keep you cooler. 2. If you're travelling on open rock, sand, or snow with few nice areas of dirt for stake placement, you might want a free-standing design that can be used with "deadman" anchors. 3. If you love spending your evenings staring into a campfire near your tent, you might want to check which way the sparks are drifting, and if toward your tent, hope that it is flame retardant! 4. If you plan on hiking a very popular trail where people may be camping near you (or you are in a big group of people hiking together already), you might want a design that prevents others from seeing into your tent. 5. If your campsites will be small in size, you might want a narrow tent design (especially if you are climbing and sleeping on ledges!). Ned Tibbits, Director Mountain Education, Inc. ned at mountaineducation.org From ned at mountaineducation.org Sun Nov 6 17:49:37 2016 From: ned at mountaineducation.org (ned at mountaineducation.org) Date: Sun, 6 Nov 2016 15:49:37 -0800 Subject: [pct-l] Tent Design for Happy Hikes (part-3) Message-ID: <2ebc01d23888$6f7ee2e0$4e7ca8a0$@mountaineducation.org> Portability: Clearly, your shelter from the elements is going to be brought with you, somehow. You will not be driving it to the campground as a backpacker. You will either carry, float, stow, or tow it somewhere in your future! Small tents are more portable than large ones.. - Size, Weight, and Volume: Big, bomb-proof tents weigh more, take up more room in/on your pack, and require a great deal of tolerance, strength, and conditioning to carry, but offer lots of room inside to store everyone and everything out of the elements and still have room to move around, cook, and play cards! Finding a big enough piece of ground for these guys may be another challenge. However, they are a God-send in nasty, multi-day snow storms! See, How to Carry, below. Smaller tents for groups of two or three hikers sub-divide nicely (see below) for ease of carrying and weigh less per person, but everyone has to end up in the same campsite at the end of the day! One or two-man tents offer the best freedom during the day for hiking speed and individual style, but each person will have to carry their own tent. Although a two-man tent for one person may sound excessive, when the wind is crazy or the weather is storming, you'll have plenty of room for all your gear and cooking, too! Smaller shelters like one-man tents weigh less, compact down to little, and sometimes go unnoticed in the pack, however they can be very confining, offering little room for gear organization, bad weather storage, or even changing out of wet clothes. Low, tubular bivy tents are smaller and lighter, but take the above problems to the extreme. All your gear has to stay out in the rain, you have to cook in whatever weather you get, and you must change into your sleeping clothes outside before sliding into your bivy. If it starts raining or snowing at night, you're in trouble. Simple tarps are the lightest and most compact shelter that can be suspended as a roof for shade, pitched under/over for a 3-sided feel, or pulled over you in a storm (be aware of condensation problems). If you have an issue with bugs and animals, you might not want to go this way. Again, only experience with your comfort tolerance in different designs will dictate which might treat you best in the conditions anticipated! Remember, don't base your design selection on ideal or even hoped-for weather conditions as mountains make their own weather! Size, weight, and volume of what you choose to carry may also be dictated by 1. how far you have to go, 2. how you will carry it, 3. whether you can sub-divide it, and 4. the amount of room in or on your pack you have for it. 1. Difficulty of the trip: If you don't have to go far, some folks will elect to carry the big and heavy in favor of its design or roominess. Keep in mind, in the summer mountains, big campsites that can take a big tent are few and far between. However, on snow, where you can camp anywhere imaginable, huge geodesic dome basecamp structures are even possible! On longer trips, where your pack is full of additional food and gear leaving little room for a tent, you may elect the smaller tent or tie a bigger one on the outside. If you have a long way to go and are not in the best of shape, consider something light and compact. Yes, the body will grow stronger, but if you ask it to do too much too quickly, it may rebel with cramps or scream with pain. Start all trips with slow and short days for the first week or less to let the body adjust. Once in "trail-shape," you can use the bigger tent, if you wish! 2. How to carry it may be affected by the size of your group and season. In the summer, it will go inside or be strapped to your pack. Depending on how your pack transfers weight to your body, you may feel the weight of a heavy tent! In the winter, you have the option to tow it and the kitchen sink on a sled! Across deep river crossings, you may find yourself floating it and your pack on your inflatable sleeping mattress to the other side. In a kayak it just needs to fit through the compartment door. On horseback, it needs to meet weight restrictions for the horse or mule. 3. Sub-dividing it to fellow hikers in a group allows you to take a bigger, stronger tent, if you want. Thankfully, most backpacking tents can be broken down into four different subsets, Body, Fly, Poles, and Stakes making the carrying of each by different people easy, light, and small. You just have to finish each day as a group at your campsite to put Humpty-Dumpty back together again! Obviously, if you're on your own, you'll have to carry all of it. 4. Pack room and design can be a big limiting factor! If you don't have enough room to put your tent inside your pack, you will have to strap it on the outside, preferably to the frame on top so it rides close to your spine for balance and maneuverability. If you have a non-waterproof pack that needs a rain cover, putting your tent on the outside may leave some of your pack exposed to the rain. If you have to carry a bear canister to protect your food, it will occupy most of your pack and your tent will have to go outside, unless you buy a bigger pack, of course! As you become a more experienced and stronger hiker, you may want to bring more "luxuries" necessitating a bigger pack. Remember, the more stuff strapped to the outside, the greater the possibility of losing something, either the item or your balance! Ned Tibbits, Director Mountain Education, Inc. ned at mountaineducation.org From ned at mountaineducation.org Sun Nov 6 17:52:33 2016 From: ned at mountaineducation.org (ned at mountaineducation.org) Date: Sun, 6 Nov 2016 15:52:33 -0800 Subject: [pct-l] Snow Caves Message-ID: <2ec901d23888$d8115d10$88341730$@mountaineducation.org> Shelter Option for Snow Camping, the Snow Cave! Most people don't realize that sleeping in snow, rather than on snow, is far warmer. If you take out of the temperature equation sub-freezing cold and wind, which is what you get on a clear, starry winter's night, at least in the Sierra, sleeping in a snow cave doesn't get any colder than 32 degrees! Yes, it takes about 2 hours for 3 people to build (at least the townhouse models), and "the digger" can get fairly wet in the process (primarily due to sweat!), but they can weather any storm in luxury! Once, we started 3 side-by-side tunnels into a deep-snow hillside separated by 10-12 feet. Each went in a body-length or so before going up onto its sleeping platform and 8-foot diameter room. By the time we were done, we had a 2-bedroom, one kitchen dormitory for eight people that got us through a multi-day, 5-foot snowstorm! It came complete with numerous candle-lanterns cut into the sidewalls like sconces, nice, big tunnels for ease of getting into and out, high, arched ceilings and a kitchen table for everyone to cook on! If we had been in our tents (we had them, too!), we would have been outside digging them out numerous times throughout the days and nights the storm raged (1982). This is just one of the skills we teach aspiring snow-hikers on our Snow Basics Courses. If you are interested in knowing more, go to our wilderness school's website at www.mountaineducation.org Ned Tibbits, Director Mountain Education, Inc. ned at mountaineducation.org From ned at mountaineducation.org Sun Nov 6 17:57:15 2016 From: ned at mountaineducation.org (ned at mountaineducation.org) Date: Sun, 6 Nov 2016 15:57:15 -0800 Subject: [pct-l] Snow Hiking with a sled! Message-ID: <2edd01d23889$80c4ecb0$824ec610$@mountaineducation.org> Snow Travel: Pull a Sled, Instead! Summer hikers, who are confined to the use of backpacks, don't realize that in the winter, when everything is covered in smooth snow, they can put all their stuff in a sled or pulk and tow it behind them! I've been using one for 32 years.. Certainly this is nothing new. Snow-bound adventurers and polar explorers have been using them for a few centuries. So, from a practical perspective, what's so great about the idea? Pros: - You're not high-centered because of your pack: better balance and less face-plants in snow. - Less fatigue when maneuvering over consolidated snow. - You can carry more gear and luxuries! - Your legs do all the work, so it's less hard on the back. - You don't feel its weight behind you (if the snow is consolidated*). - Packing is nothing, just throw everything in the sled! - Emergency medical evacuation tool. - Emergency shelter. - Dog bed! Cons: - More fatigue when pulling through fresh, soft powder snow. - On downhills, it pushes you, so you are the going-forward brakes! - Wide turns only, like a long truck, so it's not good in the trees. - It slides both ways, even backwards (unless you have reverse braking). - On steep, snowy traverses, some tend to roll or swing sideways a bit. - May not fit in your car. What is a sled? There are many different designs, but most end up as a rigid, slippery, enclosed container or open bed pulled by rope or rigid poles attached to your hips. Mountain Education, Inc. has been using those made by Patrick Smith (formerly of Mountainsmith) and his company called Kifaru. https://store.kifaru.net/sleds-c8.aspx These utilize a rigid-pole design of pulling (instead of a loose rope) that we like better because when we stop on the downhill, the sled doesn't run us over! They are shallow, rectangular, fiberglass sleds that have "tracers" or skegs underneath to keep it tracking right behind you. They come in different lengths and some can be converted to carrying an enclosed child seat, too! What does it allow you to do? I can bring more luxuries, food, and gear that make trips into the backcountry more comfortable, warm, and fun without strain or fatigue! They are ideal for short, basecamp styled trips, but I have taken our 7-foot rescue sled down the full length of the John Muir Trail in the High Sierra, over all its steep passes and across all those creeks, for four weeks carrying heavy and bulky camera and climbing gear without a problem. You can bring cots, huge tents with wood stoves, chairs, BBQs, wood for the fire (yes, you can build a fire on snow!), extra boots, blankets, and pillows, solar array, family/group gear, and all that heavy, bulky stuff you could never while backpacking. Basically, it is your pickup truck on snow! Interested? If this sounds interesting and something you'd like to see in action, join us on one of our Snow Basics Courses near Lake Tahoe on the Pacific Crest Trail and find out that snow camping is the way to go! http://mountaineducation.org/ Again, lots of photos can be seen on our Facebook page, too! *more on this incredibly important detail in another installment. C 2016 Mountain Education, Inc. Ned Tibbits, Director Mountain Education, Inc. ned at mountaineducation.org From ned at mountaineducation.org Sun Nov 6 18:00:10 2016 From: ned at mountaineducation.org (ned at mountaineducation.org) Date: Sun, 6 Nov 2016 16:00:10 -0800 Subject: [pct-l] Snow Hiking: Don't Fall! Message-ID: <2eec01d23889$e8785180$b968f480$@mountaineducation.org> Snow Hiking: Preventing Slip-and-Falls! You will be thru hiking the Pacific Crest Trail northbound or out in the Sierra during "early season" on the John Muir Trail and suspect that the high and steep terrain will be covered in snow. You've heard about hikers slipping/postholing on steep slopes and tumbling into rocks, lakes, trees, or creeks below, getting seriously hurt, and having to end their expeditionary hikes. "How do I best prevent myself from falling? How do I best stop that fast and crazy tumble or slide?" 1. Maintain your balance with two poles, but not used like you would while summer, dry-trail hiking. Your poles are extensions of your arms out and down to the snow to keep you from tipping over and falling. Dry-trail hikers swing their poles next to their feet and place the poles into the ground out ahead of them as they walk. Not the best idea when on snow, however. Pole-plant placement will be within an arc from 2 o'clock to 5 o'clock on the right side and the equivalent on the left and far enough away, out from the body, to create a triangle to the feet for strength and balance. When going downhill, the poles should be placed out in front to 2 and 10 o'clock for braking. When going uphill, they should be placed in back at 5 and 7 o'clock, but near to the feet, for pushing forward. Good pole placement when snow-hiking is crucial to prevent a stumble, slip-out, sideways foot-slide, and to maintain control of where your top-heavy body is going. Realize, that little unpredictable movements at the feet when on snow translate to bigger balance corrections with your upper body while keeping yourself from falling. Use those poles constantly to keep yourself on your feet! 2. Traction-aides! Most to the falls we see while teaching PCT thru hikers their steep snow skills in the southern Sierra are caused by the use of the wrong footwear! To compensate for the bad-edging and slip-prone nature of what thru hikers commonly want to wear, some form of traction-aide should be used in the more slippery areas. This is to prevent the slip, itself. So, you've got your balance maintained to stay on top of your feet, but the shoes still slip. Wear something like Kahtoola Microspikes or K-10 hiking crampons to increase the grip your feet need to have when on steep and slippery snow. Of course, first, you've got to have the training or experience to recognize when the conditions ahead of you look sketchy requiring you to stop and put them on in the first place (for most thru hikers, this is the hardest part). 3. Stopping the tumble down the hill. This is arresting the fall, itself, and called Self-Arrest. You can't predict when you're going to slip and fall. You can assess a slope and select a route that may minimize such a possibility, but even the most experienced and cautious can't say, "I'm probably going to fall somewhere in there!" Ice Axe vs. Self-Arrest pole: The answer of which to invest in and take is simple - which is in your hand all the time and ready to deploy the instant you realize you are falling? The self-arrest pole! Ice axes are cool for the hiker to carry, but that's just it, most of the time you'll be carrying it and when you're tumbling down the hill, it will be nicely strapped to the back of your pack and useless to stop your descent into the rocks or trees below. They are the definitive tool, however, for the mountaineer who needs to self-belay, make snow-anchors, and deal with ice, but for the most part, snow-hikers don't do those things. For the snow-hiker, the combination device called self-arrest poles provide the best of the two things you need most, balance control and immediate self-arrest. Self-arresting your fall and subsequent slide or tumble is something that gets out-of-control real fast and, thus, must be a reflexive action to prevent injury during the event before you stop. This requires training and practice on similar snow, slopes, and conditions you expect to encounter to deploy quickly. Most of the time, slides and tumbles are not pretty, so however you select to gain this training, make sure you end up practicing spontaneous and ridiculous falls to include head-first, rolls, and head-down-on-your-back slides with your pack on where you have to fight gravity and momentum to get yourself in the "self-arrest position" and affect a safe stop. Mountain Education has been offering this kind of training for 34 years via its Snow Basics and Advanced Courses. Keep in mind that we offer a unique course just for PCT and JMT Thru-hikers Only (PTO) that comes to you right on the trail right where you first may encounter deep and steep snow near Cottonwood Pass in the southern sierra and for several days thereafter we explain the needed knowledge, demonstrate the required safety skills, and help you practice enough to get a good enough grasp of what it takes to stay safe out there. Any questions? (c) 2016 Mountain Education, Inc. Ned Tibbits, Director Mountain Education, Inc. ned at mountaineducation.org From ned at mountaineducation.org Sun Nov 6 18:02:15 2016 From: ned at mountaineducation.org (ned at mountaineducation.org) Date: Sun, 6 Nov 2016 16:02:15 -0800 Subject: [pct-l] "What's Under the Snow?" Message-ID: <2f0201d2388a$32e5f7e0$98b1e7a0$@mountaineducation.org> "What's under the snow?" (part 1) Another aspect of PCT snow-hiking that aspiring thrus commonly dismiss is, "What's under the snow?" When people look at snow, they see a white surface. When standing on it, they don't even wonder if anything could be inside. In fact, the snowpack is comprised of all the variously thick layers of snow from each of the storms that added to it during the winter. Some layers will be soft and fluffy, others will be wet, frozen slabs, while others will be sheets of ice. Snow falls on tall and short trees, logs, boulders, and dead stumps alike, burying them in the snowpack. Wind transports all sorts of other debris, both big and small, onto the snow surface just to get buried in the pack with the arrival of the next storm. So, beneath any random spot on the snow could be all sorts of nasty things just waiting to injure your foot and leg as they slide dramatically by in an otherwise benign snow-hiking event we call "Postholing." It's not so benign, really, as your foot and leg can get pretty twisted and cut up in the process of suddenly and unexpectedly plunging through the snow's surface at a location where the snow can't hold your weight. Unfortunately, where this happens once, it often continues for quite a distance, maybe the rest of the time you're on the snow! How do you avoid this potentially spine-jarring, leg-cutting, knee-twisting, foot-jamming event called postholing? Snow-hike when the pack is cold enough to hold your weight, like say during "early season" (before the mountains start warming up in May), during the early morning (a few hours before and after sunrise), or in the shade (in the trees or on the north sides of ridges). (c) 2016 Mountain Education, Inc. Ned Tibbits, Director Mountain Education, Inc. ned at mountaineducation.org From ned at mountaineducation.org Sun Nov 6 18:06:10 2016 From: ned at mountaineducation.org (ned at mountaineducation.org) Date: Sun, 6 Nov 2016 16:06:10 -0800 Subject: [pct-l] "What's Under the Snow" (part-2; long) Message-ID: <2f1801d2388a$becd3ed0$3c67bc70$@mountaineducation.org> "What's under the snow" (part 2) "Why should I care or even need to be aware of this?" It will change how you walk over it! For the snow-hiker wearing regular shoes or boots and not using snowshoes or skis, what is under the surface of the snow is a big safety issue! As we discussed earlier, there are multiple layers of soft snow, hard snow, wet-frozen snow, and ice, all peppered with wind-blown debris from pine needles and pine cones to branches and entire trees shattered by winter avalanches. With this in mind, let me illustrate exactly what your feet will have to deal with to keep from slipping. The biggest danger shows up on the steep slopes (an incline of the terrain that looks like a great sledding hill or steeper), whether you're going up, down, or across them. When the snow isn't flat, it is easy to simply slip on the surface, fall, and tumble into a tree, boulder, or lake below. What can cause you to lose your "edge" or the grip of your shoes on the snow and what do you do about it? Premise: Most snow-hikers can walk on flat snow no matter whether it is soft, as in powder snow, or hard, as in springtime consolidated snow (the kind most early-season hikers will be walking on). They just slow down and are careful about how and where they place their feet. They find out quickly they can't push off their toes, as on dry ground, because they'll just slip in place. So, they adopt a kind of "flat-footed" foot placement of each step. Any other kind of broad, flat application of their foot to the snow results in a slip. Most of the comments below pertain to springtime consolidated snow and not wintertime powder snow where avalanches can be easily triggered by the tracks of the hiker across steep slopes. Avalanches are not a concern for hiking on springtime, sun-consolidated snow typical of what most long trail thru hikers will face. However, if new powder snow greater than a foot-deep falls on old consolidated snow while you're out there, avalanches can and do happen. Learn what to do to maintain your personal safety should this occur while you're out there. Most of the comments below are to snow-hikers who are making their own route across the snow and not following in the boot-tracks of others. This is an important detail that most summer hikers don't understand about snow-hiking. If you like where the tracks in front of you are going, by following or walking in them, you'll be able to step onto a flat, side-to-side path that doesn't require you to edge with your shoes. You can almost walk normally! Realize that compressed snow is warmed snow and will freeze at night, glazing over, and be slippery in the morning to walk on. You can use simple microspikes in this situation to maximize your grip. So, if you are heading up into the mountains later in the snow season or summer hiking onto the snow where it is still at high elevations early in the summer season, you probably don't need hiking crampons. However, you've got to stay in the boot-track on those microspikes. If you don't like where the footprints are going and you want to make your own route over the sloped snow, realize that microspikes tend to roll off shoes when on hard snow on steep slopes and down you'll go! When the terrain tips on edge and everything is sloped ahead, is where most people fall. Of course, some can slip and fall while standing up and others can fall after postholing, but most injuries occur after slipping on an incline. Now, what factors contribute to slip-and-falls? (This is where the layers in the snow beneath the feet and the shoes you're wearing come in!) Traversing on various snow layers: 1. The surface of the snow is hard, maybe frozen from the night before. You can be wearing the best and most appropriate shoes for the task and still be slipping all over the place. The only solutions for safe walking on this type of snow layer is to choose another route around it or to apply traction devices (hiking crampons or microspikes) to your feet to increase the grip of your shoes on the snow. If the snow slope is steep, you'll be on the edges of your shoes (if there isn't a boot-track to walk in that has a flat bottom) and I'll talk about this below. 2. The lugs on the bottom of your soles are so worn down so they can't get much of a "bite" into the snow (hard or soft). The lugs on your shoes and their pattern are crucial to your ability to move on snow. They need to be deep, sharp-edged and not too close together so snow can get in between them. This is just like car tires designed for snow (versus mud or dry pavement). Too much and too little rubber too close together and you'll just slip and fall. 3. The rubber on the bottom of your shoe needs to be on the hard vs. soft side so it can bite into the harder snow surfaces. Soft lugs will "roll" or flex when standing on hard surfaces. On snow, this is not a good thing as the shoe can move when you don't want it to and down you go. 4. The sole, itself, needs to be firm, side-to-side, so you can stand on its edges on a steep hill and not have it compress into a rounded curve, allowing a greater surface area to be in contact with the hill and the shoe to lose its edge and slip. The sole should easily flex forward, as in walking, but not allow itself to be twisted, heel to toe. (You know those shoe-testing ramps in some stores? Take your new shoes onto that ramp, stand sideways to the slope, then throw your knees and ankles uphill, into the slope so that you're standing on your shoe's uphill edges. Do the edges compress into a soft little curve? If so, those shoes can't be relied upon to hold an edge on hard, frozen snow and keep you from falling. This will be a concern you don't need when trying to enjoy your snow-hike, whether thru hike or spring weekend trip with your friends). 5. The surface of the snow (doesn't matter how thick) is soft, but there is an ice layer beneath it that you are walking on. You cannot see what you're standing on. Your ability to make your shoes "bite" or edge into this layer while traversing is the key to your safety and confidence. It's all about the "feel" of your shoes into the surface you're standing on. Good boots that can edge well may be able to get enough of a bite into the surface to hold you to the hill with each step and get you across this kind of slope safely. Adding hiking crampons to get a better bite will aid this bite, but the teeth have to be close to the edge of the shoe (thus, microspikes don't work on this kind of slope as well as crampons). 6. Flat-footing your steps across a questionable slope isn't enough to get your shoes to bite into the surface conditions. Here is where the skill of "kicking" each step into the hill greatly increases your shoe's ability to get a good bite and hold you to the hill. Be aggressive. Be determined to create a platform for each step that makes you feel confident that you can stand stable on each foot as you go across the slope. Initially, you haven't felt all these feelings from your feet, but over time and with experience you will understand what's going on down there and what you need to do to traverse a slope safely, no matter the surface conditions. Risk awareness, risk assessment, and patience are key! You will learn, but don't be hasty until you know what your feet and shoes are saying about each slope! 7. Realize that stepping into the posthole made by the person in front of you doesn't mean that you won't posthole deeper (depending on your weight and how hard you stepped into that hole). Unfortunately, we have seen snow-hikers do this, posthole more, lose their balance, fall, slide into a tree, and need to be flown to a hospital, ending their trip. Descending on various snow layers: 1. Going downhill you can fall quite easily, depending on the snow conditions and layers in the pack! If the snow is icy or frozen on top, the safest way down is to crampon-up and cut a descending traverse while well-balanced with two poles, one of which is a self-arrest pole. You can glissade, but your pants may get pretty torn up. In these conditions, hiking crampons are better because their teeth are closer to the edges of your shoes allowing you to use them while your shoes are still on-edge. Microspikes, or traction devices made of chains and teeth, do not get much of a bite into the hard or frozen snow when your shoes are on-edge because all there is in that location on your shoe are chains. Any other kind of traction device, whether instep only, heel and instep, or ball-of-foot, usually doesn't have enough teeth out on the edge of the shoe to allow it to be used on-edge nor does its frame wrap up alongside the foot (a big deal!). 2. If the snow is soft on top, but has a frozen layer beneath that holds your weight without postholing, glissading is the safest way down and a whole lot of fun! You can still cut a descending traverse with nice boot "purchase" or bite, especially if you utilize microspikes or hiking crampons to hold each step to the hill. 3. If the snow is really soft and you're postholing with each step, glissading may be out of the question because when you sit down in the snow you just make a big hole that won't let you slide. There may, yet, be another ice layer deep within the pack that is holding you up. Test it with aggressive steps to see if you'll slip at all (of course, always at the ready for a fall with your poles placed way out to the sides of you to maintain your balance with one being a self-arrest pole to stop any tumble). Cut a descending traverse or do a heel-plunge while wallowing your way down to the snowline. Be very careful not to posthole, loose your balance, and fall while your leg stays in the hole (envision your leg in a hole to your knee and your body twisting and falling sideways). This snow condition can seriously injure your knees. I'm sorry, my friend, but you got there too late in the day or season! Here are a few skills you'll need to employ to maximize your fun and safety. - Heel-Plunge: This is where you can walk straight-legged straight down the fall-line using the heel of your shoe as a brake. Your security in doing this skill is greatly increased if you have shoes with vertically-faced, pronounced heels (think of the old-style, two-piece Vibram soles on traditional hiking boots. Stay away from one-piece, soft molded soles with rolled edges.they just turn into skis!). - Glissading: This is the safest way down as you're already sitting and less prone to fall, but you can lose your alignment, feet-down, and spin or tumble into hazards below. You must learn how to maintain your alignment and speed and be ready to self-arrest. - Descending traverse: This is where you do straight-legged plunges down and across the slope edging with each step. Takes a little practice and shoes that have high tops you can leverage into the slope (as with all edging). - Boot-Skiing and Skating: This technique is for those who have great balance control and like to slide on their feet! It can be done under just the right snow conditions slope, so there has to be a subjective assessment of the snow and a personal performance readiness before you launch yourself down the hill, be it a small drift or a large snowfield. It is a great deal of fun and once you master it, you'll be seeking every opportunity you can find play with it! Ascending on various snow layers: 1. If the consolidated snow is hard and frozen or just crusty, you've got to check while at the bottom of the slope whether your choice of footwear will get much of a bite into the hill, whether on edge or toe. The safest way up is to go straight up wearing hiking crampons or microspikes with two poles pushing from behind you and spread out a bit. Go slow. Stay balanced. The next best way is to cut an ascending traverse, a series of switchbacks, if you will, up the slope, but you'll have to either kick aggressive steps to make platforms for each step (takes a ton of time) or wear your crampons and edge your way up, kicking and scratching platforms as needed. 2. If the snow is soft on top with an ice layer beneath, it will be pretty easy to kick steps, toe into the hill, straight up the slope, just test whether the compacted footprint you're making will slip on the ice layer beneath. Again, wear microspikes or hiking crampons to increase your bite into the hill and kick toe-in platforms with your heels held higher than your toes. This is a big deal! When you load that platform by standing on it, your heel might compress into the snow, become lower than your toes, and slide out of the hole backwards causing you to fall. Most people will cut an ascending traverse up the hill since the snow allows for the making of great "buckets" for your feet to stay flat, side-to-side, and you to feel the most comfortable, confident, and secure. 3. If the snow is super-soft and you've had to posthole all the way up to the base of the climb, going up the hill is going to be a "wallow-fest" of floundering and exasperation! If you can do it, great (the climb is short and you have the energy), otherwise consider spending the night right there and allow the cold night to harden the snow for an easier and safer ascent come early morning (say at 0500, a hour or two before the sun hits the slope). Synopsis: . Knowing what's in the snow will dictate the skills and equipment you use to maintain your safety while walking over it. . You must constantly assess the character or ability of the snow to hold your weight and that of your shoes to maintain traction and edge in changing snow conditions, from sun to shade, new snow to old, and on various degrees of slope. This is being "snow-savvy." Based on this information and the awareness of dangers downslope that you could slide or tumble into, you can make informed decisions about how and whether you want to cross a particular snow drift or field. . Learn how to do all this before you're on your own. Attend a snow skills course where someone can let you feel what the various layers in the snow are like and teach you how to stay safe on them! C 2016 Mountain Education, Inc. Ned Tibbits, Director Mountain Education, Inc. ned at mountaineducation.org From ned at mountaineducation.org Sun Nov 6 18:09:33 2016 From: ned at mountaineducation.org (ned at mountaineducation.org) Date: Sun, 6 Nov 2016 16:09:33 -0800 Subject: [pct-l] Microspikes vs. Hiking Crampons?? Message-ID: <2f2e01d2388b$37d96790$a78c36b0$@mountaineducation.org> Traction aides for the PCT and JMT "early season" Thru Hiker: Kahtoola's Microspikes vs. Hiking Crampons This comes up every year, so I thought I'd cover the subject from our point of view of teaching about the role and use of traction aides in thru hiking for the last 34 years. As with all gear, we approach the discussion from the priority of design and reliable function. Kahtoola: "Our Microspikes weren't designed for traversing anything steep. They were meant for walking on flat, crusty snow and maybe going straight up or down moderate slopes." Kahtoola sponsored Mountain Education with their Hiking Crampons and Microspikes back in 2010. Three of us with different sized feet, weight, and styles of hiking tested them on the Pacific Crest/John Muir Trails between Cottonwood Pass and Evolution Valley across April, May, and June and, for the most part, on 4 to 10-feet of snow. Over the last six years since then, we have beaten up those original pieces of equipment on granite, gravel, ice, snow, and short stretches of dry trail and here is what we'd say about them. Despite all the different on-trail ways we could think of to prevent this catastrophe, Microspikes commonly rolled off our shoes when traversing steep, crusty snow out-of-track. We tied them into our shoe's laces and even added over-the-instep straps to hold them on, but to no avail. As soon as one, usually the downhill foot, which was the one taking the most lateral force, would roll off, that shoe would not hold to the surface snow and slip, causing a fall, tumble, and immediate self-arrest. This sometimes can be prevented, however, if you walk either gingerly or very aggressively. Walking gingerly across steep, crusty, cold-morning snow out-of-track is not advised because you need to stomp even just a little bit to get their little spikes to "bite" into the surface snow. By not stomping, or at least kicking and scratching each step's foothold, you risk not getting enough of a grip on the snow and risking a slip-and-fall. Walking aggressively on inclined, hard snow means landing hard on your heel's uphill edges and staying on those edges all the way forward to your toes. If you don't have shoes that can hold an edge, you've already got one strike against you, so you'd better stomp and scratch.a lot! There's no more efficient way to quickly end a dream snow-hike than to slip, fall, tumble, and crash into something hard on the way down the slope. Stomp and scratch means that for every step you take, for example up the snow-incline to Forester Pass, if there aren't any footsteps before you in which to also step (I'll get into this in a minute), you'll have to make your own flat (side to side) platforms on which to stand before you take your next step. Typically, you step forward, while balanced on one leg and two poles out to your sides (three point stance), and stomp as hard an impression into the crusty snow as you can, then repetitively stomp and scratch out that platform to make it wide enough to hold your whole foot. Then stand on it and test it for "roll-out" (if it's only half as wide as your foot, you can totter off it, twisting your ankle and making an emergency move sideways to try and stop a subsequent fall) before you make your next step. This is best done with hiking crampons, but Microspikes may do, depending on snow conditions. I keep referring to "out-of-track." What's this? A boot-track is made when a snow-hiker walks through the snow leaving a trail of footprints. When many do this, the track becomes flat, side to side, because that's what's made when you stand or walk vertically or plumb. When you go across a slope anywhere else out of this track, your ankles will roll over to conform to the angle of the slope, unless your shoes can hold an edge to it. Snow-hiking affords you the freedom to go anywhere you want. You don't have a trail to follow nor signs telling you to stay on the trail. If you want to go straight up, make your own switchbacks, traverse a slope, or glissade down a snow-ramp, you can do that without damaging the alpine environment. So, if you need to pick a route away from camp across hard, steep, crusty, morning snow and do not have a path to follow (because you didn't want to go that way or you were the first to be there for the season), you'd better have great boots with firm edges and strong uppers or be wearing hiking crampons. Now, as I said, Microspike "roll-outs" don't happen with everybody. You can be wise about their shortcomings, more careful with your foot placements, and do just fine, but we had a helluva time with them, primarily on the steep, snowy traverses down into the many creeks we had to cross going north up the Sierra. (Remember, snow will remain the longest on the northern aspects of things like ridges and peaks and in the shade while melting fastest off the southern aspects of the same). Why do they "roll out"? Primarily because they don't have metal frames that wrap up the side of the shoe into which your foot slides as you load it on a steep slope. The "rubber band" method of holding the chain/teeth network to your shoe doesn't have "sides," thus allows your shoe to slide sideways and out of it. Rarely do they come off when going straight up or down a slope. Microspikes do functionally well going straight up and down slopes, too. So, for your toe-in ascents and heel-plunge descents, they work fine. Their weakness is on steep traverses. Let me summarize our thoughts on these rubber-band-mounted traction devices: . They are designed for flat surfaces, moderately sloped traverses, ups, and downs. . They can roll off your shoes when you traverse steep, hard snow slopes. . They kick and scratch moderately well compared to their bigger brother. . They are lighter and take up less room than their bigger brother. . You can walk on rock and dirt with them just fine. . They can fill with snow and not work easier than hiking crampons. . They don't get as good a bite as hiking crampons (shallower points). Other product designs to be wary of: . Teeth/spikes only under the ball of the foot (unless you walk on your toes, I suppose). . Teeth/spikes only under the instep of your foot (unless you never walk off your toes). . Teeth/spikes never near the edges of your foot (no steep traverses for you). . Really lightweight materials that will bend easily. . Flimsy mounting methods. Hiking crampons are designed for hiking (vs. climbing) and will give you the most reliability, durability, and confident performance in hair-raising situations while still providing forward flexibility for walking, a small package for storage, and only a few more ounces in carrying weight. Relative over-kill in design is a good thing when it affects your balance and safety! It is very important to note that climbing crampons are not appropriate for walking. . Their two forward fangs (designed for climbing ice walls, etc.) can lacerate your lower legs. . Their rigid frames do not flex for walking. Why do hiking crampons work so well? . Their metal frames wrap up alongside the sole of your shoes (you can't roll out!). . They often have front and rear metal bails that hang onto your boot welts. . They have strong over-the-top-of-the-foot strapping to hold it to your shoe. . They have longer steel or thick aluminum teeth to dig into the snow deeper. . Their teeth/points are strong enough to let you walk on granite without bending. . They are hinged so you can walk normally, flexing off your toes to push forward. . Their points are far enough apart to minimize the "balling-up" of snow between the teeth and frame and if it does, you can easily kick the snow off without taking the device off. . Their teeth/points are close to the sides of your shoes enabling good bite on steep traverses. . The front points are bent down to provide excellent forward bite without fear of injury. . Their large heel points work great while heel-plunging straight down a snow slope. . They are easy to fit most any size, width, or type of shoe. In reality, you can kick-and-scratch big platforms to stand on into most any frozen, crusty snow surface faster and more efficiently on steep traverses and you can toe-in and go straight up with confidence using their bent-down front points. Their big teeth hold onto anything, even granite and slippery rocks and logs on creek-crossings. What was a little scary to walk on (you feel a little slippery under foot) totally changes when you put teeth under your feet! Uncertainty goes away as your grip to the slope increases. Side Note #1: Snowshoes, even those with lots of teeth underneath, are not safe on steep, out-of-track traverses because they can lose their grip and spin or slide sideways causing you to fall and tumble down the slope into something hard below. On steep descents, when you want to go straight down, they can actually allow you to ski or skate pretty well because they don't grip very deeply. The broader surface gives you more flotation, but less bite (depending on snow conditions). Going straight up is pretty good on their big teeth under foot, but because of the broad surface area, you can't toe-in very deeply and can sometimes slide backwards. Springtime consolidated snow does not require snowshoes. Shallow powder snow on dirt or trail, any month, in the mountains does not. New, deep, powder snow in the fall does. Snowshoes demand a different manner of walking and can be very fatiguing to use. Side Note #2: Always have three points of contact between your body and the snow to maintain your balance and minimize falls. (Traction devices minimize slipping). Use two poles with powder-snow baskets (not the small diameter little discs for hard-packed snow or dirt) placed at a distance from your body, not close to your body like when summer hiking. One can be a normal hiking pole while the other should be a self-arrest pole (talked about in another article). In case you couldn't tell, after six years and 36 months living on snow using Kahtoola Hiking crampons, we don't leave home without them, even if we only suspect encountering steep patches or drifts of snow across the trail! As always, we hope this information helps you decide what to trust your life with when miles from help. However, no written or heard word or watched actions beat actual experience and practice. Consider attending some sort of snow skills training course where your instructors can demonstrate to you how to use your snow safety equipment, then watch you as you practice to perfect a skill. C 2016 Mountain Education, Inc. Ned Tibbits, Director Mountain Education, Inc. ned at mountaineducation.org From necarsulmer at mac.com Sun Nov 6 20:02:01 2016 From: necarsulmer at mac.com (Peter Necarsulmer) Date: Sun, 06 Nov 2016 18:02:01 -0800 Subject: [pct-l] Microspikes vs. Hiking Crampons?? In-Reply-To: <2f2e01d2388b$37d96790$a78c36b0$@mountaineducation.org> References: <2f2e01d2388b$37d96790$a78c36b0$@mountaineducation.org> Message-ID: <317242B9-352D-4D4D-B199-B40CC72E345B@mac.com> One of Ned's very best pieces ever. Informative, practical, evidence-based, crystal clear prose. This is a keeper. Thank you Ned. Peter Necarsulmer necarsulmer at mac. > On Nov 6, 2016, at 4:09 PM, ned at mountaineducation.org wrote: > > Traction aides for the PCT and JMT "early season" Thru Hiker: > > > Kahtoola's Microspikes vs. Hiking Crampons > > > > This comes up every year, so I thought I'd cover the subject from our point > of view of teaching about the role and use of traction aides in thru hiking > for the last 34 years. As with all gear, we approach the discussion from the > priority of design and reliable function. > > > > Kahtoola: "Our Microspikes weren't designed for traversing anything steep. > They were meant for walking on flat, crusty snow and maybe going straight up > or down moderate slopes." > > > > Kahtoola sponsored Mountain Education with their Hiking Crampons and > Microspikes back in 2010. Three of us with different sized feet, weight, and > styles of hiking tested them on the Pacific Crest/John Muir Trails between > Cottonwood Pass and Evolution Valley across April, May, and June and, for > the most part, on 4 to 10-feet of snow. Over the last six years since then, > we have beaten up those original pieces of equipment on granite, gravel, > ice, snow, and short stretches of dry trail and here is what we'd say about > them. > > > > Despite all the different on-trail ways we could think of to prevent this > catastrophe, Microspikes commonly rolled off our shoes when traversing > steep, crusty snow out-of-track. We tied them into our shoe's laces and even > added over-the-instep straps to hold them on, but to no avail. As soon as > one, usually the downhill foot, which was the one taking the most lateral > force, would roll off, that shoe would not hold to the surface snow and > slip, causing a fall, tumble, and immediate self-arrest. This sometimes can > be prevented, however, if you walk either gingerly or very aggressively. > > > > Walking gingerly across steep, crusty, cold-morning snow out-of-track is not > advised because you need to stomp even just a little bit to get their little > spikes to "bite" into the surface snow. By not stomping, or at least kicking > and scratching each step's foothold, you risk not getting enough of a grip > on the snow and risking a slip-and-fall. > > > > Walking aggressively on inclined, hard snow means landing hard on your > heel's uphill edges and staying on those edges all the way forward to your > toes. If you don't have shoes that can hold an edge, you've already got one > strike against you, so you'd better stomp and scratch.a lot! There's no more > efficient way to quickly end a dream snow-hike than to slip, fall, tumble, > and crash into something hard on the way down the slope. > > > > Stomp and scratch means that for every step you take, for example up the > snow-incline to Forester Pass, if there aren't any footsteps before you in > which to also step (I'll get into this in a minute), you'll have to make > your own flat (side to side) platforms on which to stand before you take > your next step. Typically, you step forward, while balanced on one leg and > two poles out to your sides (three point stance), and stomp as hard an > impression into the crusty snow as you can, then repetitively stomp and > scratch out that platform to make it wide enough to hold your whole foot. > Then stand on it and test it for "roll-out" (if it's only half as wide as > your foot, you can totter off it, twisting your ankle and making an > emergency move sideways to try and stop a subsequent fall) before you make > your next step. This is best done with hiking crampons, but Microspikes may > do, depending on snow conditions. > > > > I keep referring to "out-of-track." What's this? A boot-track is made when a > snow-hiker walks through the snow leaving a trail of footprints. When many > do this, the track becomes flat, side to side, because that's what's made > when you stand or walk vertically or plumb. When you go across a slope > anywhere else out of this track, your ankles will roll over to conform to > the angle of the slope, unless your shoes can hold an edge to it. > > > > Snow-hiking affords you the freedom to go anywhere you want. You don't have > a trail to follow nor signs telling you to stay on the trail. If you want to > go straight up, make your own switchbacks, traverse a slope, or glissade > down a snow-ramp, you can do that without damaging the alpine environment. > So, if you need to pick a route away from camp across hard, steep, crusty, > morning snow and do not have a path to follow (because you didn't want to go > that way or you were the first to be there for the season), you'd better > have great boots with firm edges and strong uppers or be wearing hiking > crampons. > > > > Now, as I said, Microspike "roll-outs" don't happen with everybody. You can > be wise about their shortcomings, more careful with your foot placements, > and do just fine, but we had a helluva time with them, primarily on the > steep, snowy traverses down into the many creeks we had to cross going north > up the Sierra. (Remember, snow will remain the longest on the northern > aspects of things like ridges and peaks and in the shade while melting > fastest off the southern aspects of the same). > > > > Why do they "roll out"? Primarily because they don't have metal frames that > wrap up the side of the shoe into which your foot slides as you load it on a > steep slope. The "rubber band" method of holding the chain/teeth network to > your shoe doesn't have "sides," thus allows your shoe to slide sideways and > out of it. Rarely do they come off when going straight up or down a slope. > > > > Microspikes do functionally well going straight up and down slopes, too. So, > for your toe-in ascents and heel-plunge descents, they work fine. Their > weakness is on steep traverses. > > > > Let me summarize our thoughts on these rubber-band-mounted traction devices: > > > . They are designed for flat surfaces, moderately sloped traverses, ups, and > downs. > . They can roll off your shoes when you traverse steep, hard snow slopes. > . They kick and scratch moderately well compared to their bigger brother. > . They are lighter and take up less room than their bigger brother. > . You can walk on rock and dirt with them just fine. > . They can fill with snow and not work easier than hiking crampons. > . They don't get as good a bite as hiking crampons (shallower points). > > > > Other product designs to be wary of: > > > . Teeth/spikes only under the ball of the foot (unless you walk on your > toes, I suppose). > . Teeth/spikes only under the instep of your foot (unless you never walk off > your toes). > . Teeth/spikes never near the edges of your foot (no steep traverses for > you). > . Really lightweight materials that will bend easily. > . Flimsy mounting methods. > > > > Hiking crampons are designed for hiking (vs. climbing) and will give you the > most reliability, durability, and confident performance in hair-raising > situations while still providing forward flexibility for walking, a small > package for storage, and only a few more ounces in carrying weight. Relative > over-kill in design is a good thing when it affects your balance and safety! > > > > It is very important to note that climbing crampons are not appropriate for > walking. > > > . Their two forward fangs (designed for climbing ice walls, etc.) can > lacerate your lower legs. > . Their rigid frames do not flex for walking. > > > > Why do hiking crampons work so well? > > > . Their metal frames wrap up alongside the sole of your shoes (you can't > roll out!). > . They often have front and rear metal bails that hang onto your boot welts. > . They have strong over-the-top-of-the-foot strapping to hold it to your > shoe. > . They have longer steel or thick aluminum teeth to dig into the snow > deeper. > . Their teeth/points are strong enough to let you walk on granite without > bending. > . They are hinged so you can walk normally, flexing off your toes to push > forward. > . Their points are far enough apart to minimize the "balling-up" of snow > between the teeth and frame and if it does, you can easily kick the snow off > without taking the device off. > . Their teeth/points are close to the sides of your shoes enabling good bite > on steep traverses. > . The front points are bent down to provide excellent forward bite without > fear of injury. > . Their large heel points work great while heel-plunging straight down a > snow slope. > . They are easy to fit most any size, width, or type of shoe. > > > > In reality, you can kick-and-scratch big platforms to stand on into most any > frozen, crusty snow surface faster and more efficiently on steep traverses > and you can toe-in and go straight up with confidence using their bent-down > front points. Their big teeth hold onto anything, even granite and slippery > rocks and logs on creek-crossings. What was a little scary to walk on (you > feel a little slippery under foot) totally changes when you put teeth under > your feet! Uncertainty goes away as your grip to the slope increases. > > > > Side Note #1: Snowshoes, even those with lots of teeth underneath, are not > safe on steep, out-of-track traverses because they can lose their grip and > spin or slide sideways causing you to fall and tumble down the slope into > something hard below. On steep descents, when you want to go straight down, > they can actually allow you to ski or skate pretty well because they don't > grip very deeply. The broader surface gives you more flotation, but less > bite (depending on snow conditions). Going straight up is pretty good on > their big teeth under foot, but because of the broad surface area, you can't > toe-in very deeply and can sometimes slide backwards. Springtime > consolidated snow does not require snowshoes. Shallow powder snow on dirt or > trail, any month, in the mountains does not. New, deep, powder snow in the > fall does. Snowshoes demand a different manner of walking and can be very > fatiguing to use. > > > > Side Note #2: Always have three points of contact between your body and the > snow to maintain your balance and minimize falls. (Traction devices minimize > slipping). Use two poles with powder-snow baskets (not the small diameter > little discs for hard-packed snow or dirt) placed at a distance from your > body, not close to your body like when summer hiking. One can be a normal > hiking pole while the other should be a self-arrest pole (talked about in > another article). > > > > In case you couldn't tell, after six years and 36 months living on snow > using Kahtoola Hiking crampons, we don't leave home without them, even if we > only suspect encountering steep patches or drifts of snow across the trail! > > > > As always, we hope this information helps you decide what to trust your life > with when miles from help. However, no written or heard word or watched > actions beat actual experience and practice. Consider attending some sort of > snow skills training course where your instructors can demonstrate to you > how to use your snow safety equipment, then watch you as you practice to > perfect a skill. > > C 2016 Mountain Education, Inc. > > > > > > Ned Tibbits, Director > > Mountain Education, Inc. > > ned at mountaineducation.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > Pct-L mailing list > Pct-L at backcountry.net > To unsubscribe, or change options visit: > http://mailman.backcountry.net/mailman/listinfo/pct-l > > List Archives: > http://mailman.backcountry.net/pipermail/pct-l/ > All content is copyrighted by the respective authors. > Reproduction is prohibited without express permission. From ned at mountaineducation.org Mon Nov 7 08:35:40 2016 From: ned at mountaineducation.org (ned at mountaineducation.org) Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2016 06:35:40 -0800 Subject: [pct-l] Microspikes vs. Hiking Crampons?? In-Reply-To: References: <2f2e01d2388b$37d96790$a78c36b0$@mountaineducation.org> Message-ID: <31bb01d23904$37003aa0$a500afe0$@mountaineducation.org> Hi, Sabrina, For snow-hiking, we like the Kahtoola design because they: - are strapped on, - have heel and toe retainers to keep them snug to the foot, - have steel frames that wrap up the side of the boot to push into, - hinge nicely for walking, - don?t take up too much space, - only add a few ounces over the microspike choice, - don?t have front points to stab or slice my lower legs, and - We have beat them up for the last 6 years and they?re still going strong, Ned Tibbits, Director Mountain Education, Inc. ned at mountaineducation.org From: Sabrina Harrison [mailto:troopharrison at gmail.com] Sent: Sunday, November 6, 2016 5:07 PM To: ned at mountaineducation.org Subject: Re: [pct-l] Microspikes vs. Hiking Crampons?? Thanks so much Ned! Is this the one you recommend? http://kahtoola.com/product/k10-hiking-crampon/ Sabrina Sent from my iPhone On Nov 6, 2016, at 6:09 PM, > > wrote: Traction aides for the PCT and JMT "early season" Thru Hiker: Kahtoola's Microspikes vs. Hiking Crampons This comes up every year, so I thought I'd cover the subject from our point of view of teaching about the role and use of traction aides in thru hiking for the last 34 years. As with all gear, we approach the discussion from the priority of design and reliable function. Kahtoola: "Our Microspikes weren't designed for traversing anything steep. They were meant for walking on flat, crusty snow and maybe going straight up or down moderate slopes." Kahtoola sponsored Mountain Education with their Hiking Crampons and Microspikes back in 2010. Three of us with different sized feet, weight, and styles of hiking tested them on the Pacific Crest/John Muir Trails between Cottonwood Pass and Evolution Valley across April, May, and June and, for the most part, on 4 to 10-feet of snow. Over the last six years since then, we have beaten up those original pieces of equipment on granite, gravel, ice, snow, and short stretches of dry trail and here is what we'd say about them. Despite all the different on-trail ways we could think of to prevent this catastrophe, Microspikes commonly rolled off our shoes when traversing steep, crusty snow out-of-track. We tied them into our shoe's laces and even added over-the-instep straps to hold them on, but to no avail. As soon as one, usually the downhill foot, which was the one taking the most lateral force, would roll off, that shoe would not hold to the surface snow and slip, causing a fall, tumble, and immediate self-arrest. This sometimes can be prevented, however, if you walk either gingerly or very aggressively. Walking gingerly across steep, crusty, cold-morning snow out-of-track is not advised because you need to stomp even just a little bit to get their little spikes to "bite" into the surface snow. By not stomping, or at least kicking and scratching each step's foothold, you risk not getting enough of a grip on the snow and risking a slip-and-fall. Walking aggressively on inclined, hard snow means landing hard on your heel's uphill edges and staying on those edges all the way forward to your toes. If you don't have shoes that can hold an edge, you've already got one strike against you, so you'd better stomp and scratch.a lot! There's no more efficient way to quickly end a dream snow-hike than to slip, fall, tumble, and crash into something hard on the way down the slope. Stomp and scratch means that for every step you take, for example up the snow-incline to Forester Pass, if there aren't any footsteps before you in which to also step (I'll get into this in a minute), you'll have to make your own flat (side to side) platforms on which to stand before you take your next step. Typically, you step forward, while balanced on one leg and two poles out to your sides (three point stance), and stomp as hard an impression into the crusty snow as you can, then repetitively stomp and scratch out that platform to make it wide enough to hold your whole foot. Then stand on it and test it for "roll-out" (if it's only half as wide as your foot, you can totter off it, twisting your ankle and making an emergency move sideways to try and stop a subsequent fall) before you make your next step. This is best done with hiking crampons, but Microspikes may do, depending on snow conditions. I keep referring to "out-of-track." What's this? A boot-track is made when a snow-hiker walks through the snow leaving a trail of footprints. When many do this, the track becomes flat, side to side, because that's what's made when you stand or walk vertically or plumb. When you go across a slope anywhere else out of this track, your ankles will roll over to conform to the angle of the slope, unless your shoes can hold an edge to it. Snow-hiking affords you the freedom to go anywhere you want. You don't have a trail to follow nor signs telling you to stay on the trail. If you want to go straight up, make your own switchbacks, traverse a slope, or glissade down a snow-ramp, you can do that without damaging the alpine environment. So, if you need to pick a route away from camp across hard, steep, crusty, morning snow and do not have a path to follow (because you didn't want to go that way or you were the first to be there for the season), you'd better have great boots with firm edges and strong uppers or be wearing hiking crampons. Now, as I said, Microspike "roll-outs" don't happen with everybody. You can be wise about their shortcomings, more careful with your foot placements, and do just fine, but we had a helluva time with them, primarily on the steep, snowy traverses down into the many creeks we had to cross going north up the Sierra. (Remember, snow will remain the longest on the northern aspects of things like ridges and peaks and in the shade while melting fastest off the southern aspects of the same). Why do they "roll out"? Primarily because they don't have metal frames that wrap up the side of the shoe into which your foot slides as you load it on a steep slope. The "rubber band" method of holding the chain/teeth network to your shoe doesn't have "sides," thus allows your shoe to slide sideways and out of it. Rarely do they come off when going straight up or down a slope. Microspikes do functionally well going straight up and down slopes, too. So, for your toe-in ascents and heel-plunge descents, they work fine. Their weakness is on steep traverses. Let me summarize our thoughts on these rubber-band-mounted traction devices: . They are designed for flat surfaces, moderately sloped traverses, ups, and downs. . They can roll off your shoes when you traverse steep, hard snow slopes. . They kick and scratch moderately well compared to their bigger brother. . They are lighter and take up less room than their bigger brother. . You can walk on rock and dirt with them just fine. . They can fill with snow and not work easier than hiking crampons. . They don't get as good a bite as hiking crampons (shallower points). Other product designs to be wary of: . Teeth/spikes only under the ball of the foot (unless you walk on your toes, I suppose). . Teeth/spikes only under the instep of your foot (unless you never walk off your toes). . Teeth/spikes never near the edges of your foot (no steep traverses for you). . Really lightweight materials that will bend easily. . Flimsy mounting methods. Hiking crampons are designed for hiking (vs. climbing) and will give you the most reliability, durability, and confident performance in hair-raising situations while still providing forward flexibility for walking, a small package for storage, and only a few more ounces in carrying weight. Relative over-kill in design is a good thing when it affects your balance and safety! It is very important to note that climbing crampons are not appropriate for walking. . Their two forward fangs (designed for climbing ice walls, etc.) can lacerate your lower legs. . Their rigid frames do not flex for walking. Why do hiking crampons work so well? . Their metal frames wrap up alongside the sole of your shoes (you can't roll out!). . They often have front and rear metal bails that hang onto your boot welts. . They have strong over-the-top-of-the-foot strapping to hold it to your shoe. . They have longer steel or thick aluminum teeth to dig into the snow deeper. . Their teeth/points are strong enough to let you walk on granite without bending. . They are hinged so you can walk normally, flexing off your toes to push forward. . Their points are far enough apart to minimize the "balling-up" of snow between the teeth and frame and if it does, you can easily kick the snow off without taking the device off. . Their teeth/points are close to the sides of your shoes enabling good bite on steep traverses. . The front points are bent down to provide excellent forward bite without fear of injury. . Their large heel points work great while heel-plunging straight down a snow slope. . They are easy to fit most any size, width, or type of shoe. In reality, you can kick-and-scratch big platforms to stand on into most any frozen, crusty snow surface faster and more efficiently on steep traverses and you can toe-in and go straight up with confidence using their bent-down front points. Their big teeth hold onto anything, even granite and slippery rocks and logs on creek-crossings. What was a little scary to walk on (you feel a little slippery under foot) totally changes when you put teeth under your feet! Uncertainty goes away as your grip to the slope increases. Side Note #1: Snowshoes, even those with lots of teeth underneath, are not safe on steep, out-of-track traverses because they can lose their grip and spin or slide sideways causing you to fall and tumble down the slope into something hard below. On steep descents, when you want to go straight down, they can actually allow you to ski or skate pretty well because they don't grip very deeply. The broader surface gives you more flotation, but less bite (depending on snow conditions). Going straight up is pretty good on their big teeth under foot, but because of the broad surface area, you can't toe-in very deeply and can sometimes slide backwards. Springtime consolidated snow does not require snowshoes. Shallow powder snow on dirt or trail, any month, in the mountains does not. New, deep, powder snow in the fall does. Snowshoes demand a different manner of walking and can be very fatiguing to use. Side Note #2: Always have three points of contact between your body and the snow to maintain your balance and minimize falls. (Traction devices minimize slipping). Use two poles with powder-snow baskets (not the small diameter little discs for hard-packed snow or dirt) placed at a distance from your body, not close to your body like when summer hiking. One can be a normal hiking pole while the other should be a self-arrest pole (talked about in another article). In case you couldn't tell, after six years and 36 months living on snow using Kahtoola Hiking crampons, we don't leave home without them, even if we only suspect encountering steep patches or drifts of snow across the trail! As always, we hope this information helps you decide what to trust your life with when miles from help. However, no written or heard word or watched actions beat actual experience and practice. Consider attending some sort of snow skills training course where your instructors can demonstrate to you how to use your snow safety equipment, then watch you as you practice to perfect a skill. C 2016 Mountain Education, Inc. Ned Tibbits, Director Mountain Education, Inc. ned at mountaineducation.org _______________________________________________ Pct-L mailing list Pct-L at backcountry.net To unsubscribe, or change options visit: http://mailman.backcountry.net/mailman/listinfo/pct-l List Archives: http://mailman.backcountry.net/pipermail/pct-l/ All content is copyrighted by the respective authors. Reproduction is prohibited without express permission. From grandpafaris at yahoo.com Mon Nov 7 12:54:03 2016 From: grandpafaris at yahoo.com (Jim Faris) Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2016 18:54:03 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [pct-l] "What's Under the Snow" (part-2; long) In-Reply-To: <2f1801d2388a$becd3ed0$3c67bc70$@mountaineducation.org> References: <2f1801d2388a$becd3ed0$3c67bc70$@mountaineducation.org> Message-ID: <127533071.2130444.1478544843960@mail.yahoo.com> good article ?thank you On Sunday, November 6, 2016 4:06 PM, "ned at mountaineducation.org" wrote: "What's under the snow" (part 2) "Why should I care or even need to be aware of this?" It will change how you walk over it! For the snow-hiker wearing regular shoes or boots and not using snowshoes or skis, what is under the surface of the snow is a big safety issue! As we discussed earlier, there are multiple layers of soft snow, hard snow, wet-frozen snow, and ice, all peppered with wind-blown debris from pine needles and pine cones to branches and entire trees shattered by winter avalanches. With this in mind, let me illustrate exactly what your feet will have to deal with to keep from slipping. The biggest danger shows up on the steep slopes (an incline of the terrain that looks like a great sledding hill or steeper), whether you're going up, down, or across them. When the snow isn't flat, it is easy to simply slip on the surface, fall, and tumble into a tree, boulder, or lake below. What can cause you to lose your "edge" or the grip of your shoes on the snow and what do you do about it? Premise: Most snow-hikers can walk on flat snow no matter whether it is soft, as in powder snow, or hard, as in springtime consolidated snow (the kind most early-season hikers will be walking on). They just slow down and are careful about how and where they place their feet. They find out quickly they can't push off their toes, as on dry ground, because they'll just slip in place. So, they adopt a kind of "flat-footed" foot placement of each step. Any other kind of broad, flat application of their foot to the snow results in a slip. Most of the comments below pertain to springtime consolidated snow and not wintertime powder snow where avalanches can be easily triggered by the tracks of the hiker across steep slopes. Avalanches are not a concern for hiking on springtime, sun-consolidated snow typical of what most long trail thru hikers will face. However, if new powder snow greater than a foot-deep falls on old consolidated snow while you're out there, avalanches can and do happen. Learn what to do to maintain your personal safety should this occur while you're out there. Most of the comments below are to snow-hikers who are making their own route across the snow and not following in the boot-tracks of others. This is an important detail that most summer hikers don't understand about snow-hiking. If you like where the tracks in front of you are going, by following or walking in them, you'll be able to step onto a flat, side-to-side path that doesn't require you to edge with your shoes. You can almost walk normally! Realize that compressed snow is warmed snow and will freeze at night, glazing over, and be slippery in the morning to walk on. You can use simple microspikes in this situation to maximize your grip. So, if you are heading up into the mountains later in the snow season or summer hiking onto the snow where it is still at high elevations early in the summer season, you probably don't need hiking crampons. However, you've got to stay in the boot-track on those microspikes. If you don't like where the footprints are going and you want to make your own route over the sloped snow, realize that microspikes tend to roll off shoes when on hard snow on steep slopes and down you'll go! When the terrain tips on edge and everything is sloped ahead, is where most people fall. Of course, some can slip and fall while standing up and others can fall after postholing, but most injuries occur after slipping on an incline. Now, what factors contribute to slip-and-falls? (This is where the layers in the snow beneath the feet and the shoes you're wearing come in!) Traversing on various snow layers: 1. The surface of the snow is hard, maybe frozen from the night before. You can be wearing the best and most appropriate shoes for the task and still be slipping all over the place. The only solutions for safe walking on this type of snow layer is to choose another route around it or to apply traction devices (hiking crampons or microspikes) to your feet to increase the grip of your shoes on the snow. If the snow slope is steep, you'll be on the edges of your shoes (if there isn't a boot-track to walk in that has a flat bottom) and I'll talk about this below. 2. The lugs on the bottom of your soles are so worn down so they can't get much of a "bite" into the snow (hard or soft). The lugs on your shoes and their pattern are crucial to your ability to move on snow. They need to be deep, sharp-edged and not too close together so snow can get in between them. This is just like car tires designed for snow (versus mud or dry pavement). Too much and too little rubber too close together and you'll just slip and fall. 3. The rubber on the bottom of your shoe needs to be on the hard vs. soft side so it can bite into the harder snow surfaces. Soft lugs will "roll" or flex when standing on hard surfaces. On snow, this is not a good thing as the shoe can move when you don't want it to and down you go. 4. The sole, itself, needs to be firm, side-to-side, so you can stand on its edges on a steep hill and not have it compress into a rounded curve, allowing a greater surface area to be in contact with the hill and the shoe to lose its edge and slip. The sole should easily flex forward, as in walking, but not allow itself to be twisted, heel to toe. (You know those shoe-testing ramps in some stores? Take your new shoes onto that ramp, stand sideways to the slope, then throw your knees and ankles uphill, into the slope so that you're standing on your shoe's uphill edges. Do the edges compress into a soft little curve? If so, those shoes can't be relied upon to hold an edge on hard, frozen snow and keep you from falling. This will be a concern you don't need when trying to enjoy your snow-hike, whether thru hike or spring weekend trip with your friends). 5. The surface of the snow (doesn't matter how thick) is soft, but there is an ice layer beneath it that you are walking on. You cannot see what you're standing on. Your ability to make your shoes "bite" or edge into this layer while traversing is the key to your safety and confidence. It's all about the "feel" of your shoes into the surface you're standing on. Good boots that can edge well may be able to get enough of a bite into the surface to hold you to the hill with each step and get you across this kind of slope safely. Adding hiking crampons to get a better bite will aid this bite, but the teeth have to be close to the edge of the shoe (thus, microspikes don't work on this kind of slope as well as crampons). 6. Flat-footing your steps across a questionable slope isn't enough to get your shoes to bite into the surface conditions. Here is where the skill of "kicking" each step into the hill greatly increases your shoe's ability to get a good bite and hold you to the hill. Be aggressive. Be determined to create a platform for each step that makes you feel confident that you can stand stable on each foot as you go across the slope. Initially, you haven't felt all these feelings from your feet, but over time and with experience you will understand what's going on down there and what you need to do to traverse a slope safely, no matter the surface conditions. Risk awareness, risk assessment, and patience are key! You will learn, but don't be hasty until you know what your feet and shoes are saying about each slope! 7. Realize that stepping into the posthole made by the person in front of you doesn't mean that you won't posthole deeper (depending on your weight and how hard you stepped into that hole). Unfortunately, we have seen snow-hikers do this, posthole more, lose their balance, fall, slide into a tree, and need to be flown to a hospital, ending their trip. Descending on various snow layers: 1. Going downhill you can fall quite easily, depending on the snow conditions and layers in the pack! If the snow is icy or frozen on top, the safest way down is to crampon-up and cut a descending traverse while well-balanced with two poles, one of which is a self-arrest pole. You can glissade, but your pants may get pretty torn up. In these conditions, hiking crampons are better because their teeth are closer to the edges of your shoes allowing you to use them while your shoes are still on-edge. Microspikes, or traction devices made of chains and teeth, do not get much of a bite into the hard or frozen snow when your shoes are on-edge because all there is in that location on your shoe are chains. Any other kind of traction device, whether instep only, heel and instep, or ball-of-foot, usually doesn't have enough teeth out on the edge of the shoe to allow it to be used on-edge nor does its frame wrap up alongside the foot (a big deal!). 2. If the snow is soft on top, but has a frozen layer beneath that holds your weight without postholing, glissading is the safest way down and a whole lot of fun! You can still cut a descending traverse with nice boot "purchase" or bite, especially if you utilize microspikes or hiking crampons to hold each step to the hill. 3. If the snow is really soft and you're postholing with each step, glissading may be out of the question because when you sit down in the snow you just make a big hole that won't let you slide. There may, yet, be another ice layer deep within the pack that is holding you up. Test it with aggressive steps to see if you'll slip at all (of course, always at the ready for a fall with your poles placed way out to the sides of you to maintain your balance with one being a self-arrest pole to stop any tumble). Cut a descending traverse or do a heel-plunge while wallowing your way down to the snowline. Be very careful not to posthole, loose your balance, and fall while your leg stays in the hole (envision your leg in a hole to your knee and your body twisting and falling sideways). This snow condition can seriously injure your knees. I'm sorry, my friend, but you got there too late in the day or season! Here are a few skills you'll need to employ to maximize your fun and safety. - Heel-Plunge: This is where you can walk straight-legged straight down the fall-line using the heel of your shoe as a brake. Your security in doing this skill is greatly increased if you have shoes with vertically-faced, pronounced heels (think of the old-style, two-piece Vibram soles on traditional hiking boots. Stay away from one-piece, soft molded soles with rolled edges.they just turn into skis!). - Glissading: This is the safest way down as you're already sitting and less prone to fall, but you can lose your alignment, feet-down, and spin or tumble into hazards below. You must learn how to maintain your alignment and speed and be ready to self-arrest. - Descending traverse: This is where you do straight-legged plunges down and across the slope edging with each step. Takes a little practice and shoes that have high tops you can leverage into the slope (as with all edging). - Boot-Skiing and Skating: This technique is for those who have great balance control and like to slide on their feet! It can be done under just the right snow conditions slope, so there has to be a subjective assessment of the snow and a personal performance readiness before you launch yourself down the hill, be it a small drift or a large snowfield. It is a great deal of fun and once you master it, you'll be seeking every opportunity you can find play with it! Ascending on various snow layers: 1. If the consolidated snow is hard and frozen or just crusty, you've got to check while at the bottom of the slope whether your choice of footwear will get much of a bite into the hill, whether on edge or toe. The safest way up is to go straight up wearing hiking crampons or microspikes with two poles pushing from behind you and spread out a bit. Go slow. Stay balanced. The next best way is to cut an ascending traverse, a series of switchbacks, if you will, up the slope, but you'll have to either kick aggressive steps to make platforms for each step (takes a ton of time) or wear your crampons and edge your way up, kicking and scratching platforms as needed. 2. If the snow is soft on top with an ice layer beneath, it will be pretty easy to kick steps, toe into the hill, straight up the slope, just test whether the compacted footprint you're making will slip on the ice layer beneath. Again, wear microspikes or hiking crampons to increase your bite into the hill and kick toe-in platforms with your heels held higher than your toes. This is a big deal! When you load that platform by standing on it, your heel might compress into the snow, become lower than your toes, and slide out of the hole backwards causing you to fall. Most people will cut an ascending traverse up the hill since the snow allows for the making of great "buckets" for your feet to stay flat, side-to-side, and you to feel the most comfortable, confident, and secure. 3. If the snow is super-soft and you've had to posthole all the way up to the base of the climb, going up the hill is going to be a "wallow-fest" of floundering and exasperation! If you can do it, great (the climb is short and you have the energy), otherwise consider spending the night right there and allow the cold night to harden the snow for an easier and safer ascent come early morning (say at 0500, a hour or two before the sun hits the slope). Synopsis: . Knowing what's in the snow will dictate the skills and equipment you use to maintain your safety while walking over it. . You must constantly assess the character or ability of the snow to hold your weight and that of your shoes to maintain traction and edge in changing snow conditions, from sun to shade, new snow to old, and on various degrees of slope. This is being "snow-savvy." Based on this information and the awareness of dangers downslope that you could slide or tumble into, you can make informed decisions about how and whether you want to cross a particular snow drift or field. . Learn how to do all this before you're on your own. Attend a snow skills course where someone can let you feel what the various layers in the snow are like and teach you how to stay safe on them! C 2016 Mountain Education, Inc. Ned Tibbits, Director Mountain Education, Inc. ned at mountaineducation.org ? _______________________________________________ Pct-L mailing list Pct-L at backcountry.net To unsubscribe, or change options visit: http://mailman.backcountry.net/mailman/listinfo/pct-l List Archives: http://mailman.backcountry.net/pipermail/pct-l/ All content is copyrighted by the respective authors. Reproduction is prohibited without express permission. From gary_schenk at yahoo.com Mon Nov 7 12:14:15 2016 From: gary_schenk at yahoo.com (Gary Schenk) Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2016 18:14:15 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [pct-l] Sand Fire Closure References: <463759830.1786320.1478542455161.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <463759830.1786320.1478542455161@mail.yahoo.com> Sunday we inadvertently hiked through the BLM Sand Fire Closure north of Soledad Canyon Road. The USFS closure to the south is clearly marked with large signs plus the closure order on the bulletin board. Nothing for the BLM closure. We should have checked the PCTA website. That fire was bad, it looks like Hades through there, if we get rain this year the runoff will be very bad. Hopefully section and thru hikers will refrain from having a campfire every night on the trail. The San Gabriels are slowly turning into one big burn scar. Gary From scott.diamond.mail at gmail.com Tue Nov 8 18:24:17 2016 From: scott.diamond.mail at gmail.com (Scott Diamond) Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2016 16:24:17 -0800 Subject: [pct-l] Microspikes vs. Hiking Crampons?? In-Reply-To: <2f2e01d2388b$37d96790$a78c36b0$@mountaineducation.org> References: <2f2e01d2388b$37d96790$a78c36b0$@mountaineducation.org> Message-ID: This subject does come up all the time. Based on Ned's advice last winter, for my PCT hike I brought Kahtoola Hiking crampons but I'd like to provide some input on why I wish I'd brought Microspikes *What I Don't Like About Crampons* - Heavier than microspikes - Do not pack easily. The microspikes drop into your pack, crampons have sharp points and need to be strapped to the outside of your pack. Leaving Kennedy Meadows your pack is full already and finding a place to strap crampons can be a challenge - The crampons are a pain to take on and off. Microspikes easily slip on and off. Mostly it comes down to ?Ned's comments on "out-of-track." I entered the Sierra Nevada mid June and didn't have any out-of-track hiking. I think this is typical for most PCT hikers. I didn't conduct a scientific survey but I don't think I saw anyone else wearing crampons. Everyone else was either wearing microspikes or didn't have traction devices at all. Your mileage may vary but I thought I'd share another perspective. -Scott On Sun, Nov 6, 2016 at 4:09 PM, wrote: > Traction aides for the PCT and JMT "early season" Thru Hiker: > > > Kahtoola's Microspikes vs. Hiking Crampons > > > > This comes up every year, so I thought I'd cover the subject from our point > of view of teaching about the role and use of traction aides in thru hiking > for the last 34 years. As with all gear, we approach the discussion from > the > priority of design and reliable function. > > > > Kahtoola: "Our Microspikes weren't designed for traversing anything steep. > They were meant for walking on flat, crusty snow and maybe going straight > up > or down moderate slopes." > > > > Kahtoola sponsored Mountain Education with their Hiking Crampons and > Microspikes back in 2010. Three of us with different sized feet, weight, > and > styles of hiking tested them on the Pacific Crest/John Muir Trails between > Cottonwood Pass and Evolution Valley across April, May, and June and, for > the most part, on 4 to 10-feet of snow. Over the last six years since then, > we have beaten up those original pieces of equipment on granite, gravel, > ice, snow, and short stretches of dry trail and here is what we'd say about > them. > > > > Despite all the different on-trail ways we could think of to prevent this > catastrophe, Microspikes commonly rolled off our shoes when traversing > steep, crusty snow out-of-track. We tied them into our shoe's laces and > even > added over-the-instep straps to hold them on, but to no avail. As soon as > one, usually the downhill foot, which was the one taking the most lateral > force, would roll off, that shoe would not hold to the surface snow and > slip, causing a fall, tumble, and immediate self-arrest. This sometimes can > be prevented, however, if you walk either gingerly or very aggressively. > > > > Walking gingerly across steep, crusty, cold-morning snow out-of-track is > not > advised because you need to stomp even just a little bit to get their > little > spikes to "bite" into the surface snow. By not stomping, or at least > kicking > and scratching each step's foothold, you risk not getting enough of a grip > on the snow and risking a slip-and-fall. > > > > Walking aggressively on inclined, hard snow means landing hard on your > heel's uphill edges and staying on those edges all the way forward to your > toes. If you don't have shoes that can hold an edge, you've already got one > strike against you, so you'd better stomp and scratch.a lot! There's no > more > efficient way to quickly end a dream snow-hike than to slip, fall, tumble, > and crash into something hard on the way down the slope. > > > > Stomp and scratch means that for every step you take, for example up the > snow-incline to Forester Pass, if there aren't any footsteps before you in > which to also step (I'll get into this in a minute), you'll have to make > your own flat (side to side) platforms on which to stand before you take > your next step. Typically, you step forward, while balanced on one leg and > two poles out to your sides (three point stance), and stomp as hard an > impression into the crusty snow as you can, then repetitively stomp and > scratch out that platform to make it wide enough to hold your whole foot. > Then stand on it and test it for "roll-out" (if it's only half as wide as > your foot, you can totter off it, twisting your ankle and making an > emergency move sideways to try and stop a subsequent fall) before you make > your next step. This is best done with hiking crampons, but Microspikes may > do, depending on snow conditions. > > > > I keep referring to > ?? > "out-of-track." What's this? A boot-track is made when a > snow-hiker walks through the snow leaving a trail of footprints. When many > do this, the track becomes flat, side to side, because that's what's made > when you stand or walk vertically or plumb. When you go across a slope > anywhere else out of this track, your ankles will roll over to conform to > the angle of the slope, unless your shoes can hold an edge to it. > > > > Snow-hiking affords you the freedom to go anywhere you want. You don't have > a trail to follow nor signs telling you to stay on the trail. If you want > to > go straight up, make your own switchbacks, traverse a slope, or glissade > down a snow-ramp, you can do that without damaging the alpine environment. > So, if you need to pick a route away from camp across hard, steep, crusty, > morning snow and do not have a path to follow (because you didn't want to > go > that way or you were the first to be there for the season), you'd better > have great boots with firm edges and strong uppers or be wearing hiking > crampons. > > > > Now, as I said, Microspike "roll-outs" don't happen with everybody. You can > be wise about their shortcomings, more careful with your foot placements, > and do just fine, but we had a helluva time with them, primarily on the > steep, snowy traverses down into the many creeks we had to cross going > north > up the Sierra. (Remember, snow will remain the longest on the northern > aspects of things like ridges and peaks and in the shade while melting > fastest off the southern aspects of the same). > > > > Why do they "roll out"? Primarily because they don't have metal frames that > wrap up the side of the shoe into which your foot slides as you load it on > a > steep slope. The "rubber band" method of holding the chain/teeth network to > your shoe doesn't have "sides," thus allows your shoe to slide sideways and > out of it. Rarely do they come off when going straight up or down a slope. > > > > Microspikes do functionally well going straight up and down slopes, too. > So, > for your toe-in ascents and heel-plunge descents, they work fine. Their > weakness is on steep traverses. > > > > Let me summarize our thoughts on these rubber-band-mounted traction > devices: > > > . They are designed for flat surfaces, moderately sloped traverses, ups, > and > downs. > . They can roll off your shoes when you traverse steep, hard snow slopes. > . They kick and scratch moderately well compared to their bigger brother. > . They are lighter and take up less room than their bigger brother. > . You can walk on rock and dirt with them just fine. > . They can fill with snow and not work easier than hiking crampons. > . They don't get as good a bite as hiking crampons (shallower points). > > > > Other product designs to be wary of: > > > . Teeth/spikes only under the ball of the foot (unless you walk on your > toes, I suppose). > . Teeth/spikes only under the instep of your foot (unless you never walk > off > your toes). > . Teeth/spikes never near the edges of your foot (no steep traverses for > you). > . Really lightweight materials that will bend easily. > . Flimsy mounting methods. > > > > Hiking crampons are designed for hiking (vs. climbing) and will give you > the > most reliability, durability, and confident performance in hair-raising > situations while still providing forward flexibility for walking, a small > package for storage, and only a few more ounces in carrying weight. > Relative > over-kill in design is a good thing when it affects your balance and > safety! > > > > It is very important to note that climbing crampons are not appropriate for > walking. > > > . Their two forward fangs (designed for climbing ice walls, etc.) can > lacerate your lower legs. > . Their rigid frames do not flex for walking. > > > > Why do hiking crampons work so well? > > > . Their metal frames wrap up alongside the sole of your shoes (you can't > roll out!). > . They often have front and rear metal bails that hang onto your boot > welts. > . They have strong over-the-top-of-the-foot strapping to hold it to your > shoe. > . They have longer steel or thick aluminum teeth to dig into the snow > deeper. > . Their teeth/points are strong enough to let you walk on granite without > bending. > . They are hinged so you can walk normally, flexing off your toes to push > forward. > . Their points are far enough apart to minimize the "balling-up" of snow > between the teeth and frame and if it does, you can easily kick the snow > off > without taking the device off. > . Their teeth/points are close to the sides of your shoes enabling good > bite > on steep traverses. > . The front points are bent down to provide excellent forward bite without > fear of injury. > . Their large heel points work great while heel-plunging straight down a > snow slope. > . They are easy to fit most any size, width, or type of shoe. > > > > In reality, you can kick-and-scratch big platforms to stand on into most > any > frozen, crusty snow surface faster and more efficiently on steep traverses > and you can toe-in and go straight up with confidence using their bent-down > front points. Their big teeth hold onto anything, even granite and slippery > rocks and logs on creek-crossings. What was a little scary to walk on (you > feel a little slippery under foot) totally changes when you put teeth under > your feet! Uncertainty goes away as your grip to the slope increases. > > > > Side Note #1: Snowshoes, even those with lots of teeth underneath, are not > safe on steep, out-of-track traverses because they can lose their grip and > spin or slide sideways causing you to fall and tumble down the slope into > something hard below. On steep descents, when you want to go straight down, > they can actually allow you to ski or skate pretty well because they don't > grip very deeply. The broader surface gives you more flotation, but less > bite (depending on snow conditions). Going straight up is pretty good on > their big teeth under foot, but because of the broad surface area, you > can't > toe-in very deeply and can sometimes slide backwards. Springtime > consolidated snow does not require snowshoes. Shallow powder snow on dirt > or > trail, any month, in the mountains does not. New, deep, powder snow in the > fall does. Snowshoes demand a different manner of walking and can be very > fatiguing to use. > > > > Side Note #2: Always have three points of contact between your body and the > snow to maintain your balance and minimize falls. (Traction devices > minimize > slipping). Use two poles with powder-snow baskets (not the small diameter > little discs for hard-packed snow or dirt) placed at a distance from your > body, not close to your body like when summer hiking. One can be a normal > hiking pole while the other should be a self-arrest pole (talked about in > another article). > > > > In case you couldn't tell, after six years and 36 months living on snow > using Kahtoola Hiking crampons, we don't leave home without them, even if > we > only suspect encountering steep patches or drifts of snow across the trail! > > > > As always, we hope this information helps you decide what to trust your > life > with when miles from help. However, no written or heard word or watched > actions beat actual experience and practice. Consider attending some sort > of > snow skills training course where your instructors can demonstrate to you > how to use your snow safety equipment, then watch you as you practice to > perfect a skill. > > C 2016 Mountain Education, Inc. > > > > > > Ned Tibbits, Director > > Mountain Education, Inc. > > ned at mountaineducation.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > Pct-L mailing list > Pct-L at backcountry.net > To unsubscribe, or change options visit: > http://mailman.backcountry.net/mailman/listinfo/pct-l > > List Archives: > http://mailman.backcountry.net/pipermail/pct-l/ > All content is copyrighted by the respective authors. > Reproduction is prohibited without express permission. > From gary_schenk at yahoo.com Wed Nov 9 10:09:39 2016 From: gary_schenk at yahoo.com (Gary Schenk) Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2016 16:09:39 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [pct-l] Test References: <306951874.430716.1478707779295.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <306951874.430716.1478707779295@mail.yahoo.com> Testing because the list doesn't seem to work for me anymore. Gary From h at hpka.net Wed Nov 9 12:11:48 2016 From: h at hpka.net (Henry Armitage) Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2016 10:11:48 -0800 Subject: [pct-l] Test In-Reply-To: <306951874.430716.1478707779295@mail.yahoo.com> References: <306951874.430716.1478707779295.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <306951874.430716.1478707779295@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: We received your message but it ended up in my gmail spam folder. On 9 November 2016 at 08:09, Gary Schenk wrote: > Testing because the list doesn't seem to work for me anymore. > Gary > _______________________________________________ > Pct-L mailing list > Pct-L at backcountry.net > To unsubscribe, or change options visit: > http://mailman.backcountry.net/mailman/listinfo/pct-l > > List Archives: > http://mailman.backcountry.net/pipermail/pct-l/ > All content is copyrighted by the respective authors. > Reproduction is prohibited without express permission. > From sam at samwhited.com Wed Nov 9 12:16:25 2016 From: sam at samwhited.com (Sam Whited) Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2016 12:16:25 -0600 Subject: [pct-l] Test In-Reply-To: References: <306951874.430716.1478707779295.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <306951874.430716.1478707779295@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Nov 9, 2016 at 12:11 PM, Henry Armitage wrote: > We received your message but it ended up in my gmail spam folder. Indeed, it appears to have been sent from a yahoo address but using backcountry.net's servers. Gmail (and a lot of other things) assume emails sent this way are malicious and sticks them in the spam folder. ?Sam -- Sam Whited pub 4096R/54083AE104EA7AD3 From ned at mountaineducation.org Wed Nov 9 12:51:03 2016 From: ned at mountaineducation.org (ned at mountaineducation.org) Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2016 10:51:03 -0800 Subject: [pct-l] Microspikes vs. Hiking Crampons?? In-Reply-To: References: <2f2e01d2388b$37d96790$a78c36b0$@mountaineducation.org> Message-ID: <03e201d23aba$38c9e810$aa5db830$@mountaineducation.org> And you?re absolutely right, Scott! If you will be walking on steep, consolidated (hard, frozen), springtime snow in the tracks of others, microspikes are the way to go! If you want to make your own trail on these surface conditions, hiking crampons are safer. You?ve got to know the snow surface conditions that you?ll be walking into, how to make wise decisions about your route and time of day to be walking on the snow, and how to stay balanced and maximize traction to prevent slip-and-falls. This may sound like a lot of worry, but once you get to know this beautiful aspect of mountain life, it becomes second-nature, your confidence soars, and you can go wherever you want within your skills abilities (no trails or awkward scrambling to limit your exploring). Ned Tibbits, Director Mountain Education, Inc. ned at mountaineducation.org From: Scott Diamond [mailto:scott.diamond.mail at gmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, November 8, 2016 4:24 PM To: Ned Tibbits Cc: PCT ; johnmuirtrail at yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [pct-l] Microspikes vs. Hiking Crampons?? This subject does come up all the time. Based on Ned's advice last winter, for my PCT hike I brought Kahtoola Hiking crampons but I'd like to provide some input on why I wish I'd brought Microspikes What I Don't Like About Crampons * Heavier than microspikes * Do not pack easily. The microspikes drop into your pack, crampons have sharp points and need to be strapped to the outside of your pack. Leaving Kennedy Meadows your pack is full already and finding a place to strap crampons can be a challenge * The crampons are a pain to take on and off. Microspikes easily slip on and off. Mostly it comes down to ?Ned's comments on "out-of-track." I entered the Sierra Nevada mid June and didn't have any out-of-track hiking. I think this is typical for most PCT hikers. I didn't conduct a scientific survey but I don't think I saw anyone else wearing crampons. Everyone else was either wearing microspikes or didn't have traction devices at all. Your mileage may vary but I thought I'd share another perspective. -Scott On Sun, Nov 6, 2016 at 4:09 PM, > wrote: Traction aides for the PCT and JMT "early season" Thru Hiker: Kahtoola's Microspikes vs. Hiking Crampons This comes up every year, so I thought I'd cover the subject from our point of view of teaching about the role and use of traction aides in thru hiking for the last 34 years. As with all gear, we approach the discussion from the priority of design and reliable function. Kahtoola: "Our Microspikes weren't designed for traversing anything steep. They were meant for walking on flat, crusty snow and maybe going straight up or down moderate slopes." Kahtoola sponsored Mountain Education with their Hiking Crampons and Microspikes back in 2010. Three of us with different sized feet, weight, and styles of hiking tested them on the Pacific Crest/John Muir Trails between Cottonwood Pass and Evolution Valley across April, May, and June and, for the most part, on 4 to 10-feet of snow. Over the last six years since then, we have beaten up those original pieces of equipment on granite, gravel, ice, snow, and short stretches of dry trail and here is what we'd say about them. Despite all the different on-trail ways we could think of to prevent this catastrophe, Microspikes commonly rolled off our shoes when traversing steep, crusty snow out-of-track. We tied them into our shoe's laces and even added over-the-instep straps to hold them on, but to no avail. As soon as one, usually the downhill foot, which was the one taking the most lateral force, would roll off, that shoe would not hold to the surface snow and slip, causing a fall, tumble, and immediate self-arrest. This sometimes can be prevented, however, if you walk either gingerly or very aggressively. Walking gingerly across steep, crusty, cold-morning snow out-of-track is not advised because you need to stomp even just a little bit to get their little spikes to "bite" into the surface snow. By not stomping, or at least kicking and scratching each step's foothold, you risk not getting enough of a grip on the snow and risking a slip-and-fall. Walking aggressively on inclined, hard snow means landing hard on your heel's uphill edges and staying on those edges all the way forward to your toes. If you don't have shoes that can hold an edge, you've already got one strike against you, so you'd better stomp and scratch.a lot! There's no more efficient way to quickly end a dream snow-hike than to slip, fall, tumble, and crash into something hard on the way down the slope. Stomp and scratch means that for every step you take, for example up the snow-incline to Forester Pass, if there aren't any footsteps before you in which to also step (I'll get into this in a minute), you'll have to make your own flat (side to side) platforms on which to stand before you take your next step. Typically, you step forward, while balanced on one leg and two poles out to your sides (three point stance), and stomp as hard an impression into the crusty snow as you can, then repetitively stomp and scratch out that platform to make it wide enough to hold your whole foot. Then stand on it and test it for "roll-out" (if it's only half as wide as your foot, you can totter off it, twisting your ankle and making an emergency move sideways to try and stop a subsequent fall) before you make your next step. This is best done with hiking crampons, but Microspikes may do, depending on snow conditions. I keep referring to ?? "out-of-track." What's this? A boot-track is made when a snow-hiker walks through the snow leaving a trail of footprints. When many do this, the track becomes flat, side to side, because that's what's made when you stand or walk vertically or plumb. When you go across a slope anywhere else out of this track, your ankles will roll over to conform to the angle of the slope, unless your shoes can hold an edge to it. Snow-hiking affords you the freedom to go anywhere you want. You don't have a trail to follow nor signs telling you to stay on the trail. If you want to go straight up, make your own switchbacks, traverse a slope, or glissade down a snow-ramp, you can do that without damaging the alpine environment. So, if you need to pick a route away from camp across hard, steep, crusty, morning snow and do not have a path to follow (because you didn't want to go that way or you were the first to be there for the season), you'd better have great boots with firm edges and strong uppers or be wearing hiking crampons. Now, as I said, Microspike "roll-outs" don't happen with everybody. You can be wise about their shortcomings, more careful with your foot placements, and do just fine, but we had a helluva time with them, primarily on the steep, snowy traverses down into the many creeks we had to cross going north up the Sierra. (Remember, snow will remain the longest on the northern aspects of things like ridges and peaks and in the shade while melting fastest off the southern aspects of the same). Why do they "roll out"? Primarily because they don't have metal frames that wrap up the side of the shoe into which your foot slides as you load it on a steep slope. The "rubber band" method of holding the chain/teeth network to your shoe doesn't have "sides," thus allows your shoe to slide sideways and out of it. Rarely do they come off when going straight up or down a slope. Microspikes do functionally well going straight up and down slopes, too. So, for your toe-in ascents and heel-plunge descents, they work fine. Their weakness is on steep traverses. Let me summarize our thoughts on these rubber-band-mounted traction devices: . They are designed for flat surfaces, moderately sloped traverses, ups, and downs. . They can roll off your shoes when you traverse steep, hard snow slopes. . They kick and scratch moderately well compared to their bigger brother. . They are lighter and take up less room than their bigger brother. . You can walk on rock and dirt with them just fine. . They can fill with snow and not work easier than hiking crampons. . They don't get as good a bite as hiking crampons (shallower points). Other product designs to be wary of: . Teeth/spikes only under the ball of the foot (unless you walk on your toes, I suppose). . Teeth/spikes only under the instep of your foot (unless you never walk off your toes). . Teeth/spikes never near the edges of your foot (no steep traverses for you). . Really lightweight materials that will bend easily. . Flimsy mounting methods. Hiking crampons are designed for hiking (vs. climbing) and will give you the most reliability, durability, and confident performance in hair-raising situations while still providing forward flexibility for walking, a small package for storage, and only a few more ounces in carrying weight. Relative over-kill in design is a good thing when it affects your balance and safety! It is very important to note that climbing crampons are not appropriate for walking. . Their two forward fangs (designed for climbing ice walls, etc.) can lacerate your lower legs. . Their rigid frames do not flex for walking. Why do hiking crampons work so well? . Their metal frames wrap up alongside the sole of your shoes (you can't roll out!). . They often have front and rear metal bails that hang onto your boot welts. . They have strong over-the-top-of-the-foot strapping to hold it to your shoe. . They have longer steel or thick aluminum teeth to dig into the snow deeper. . Their teeth/points are strong enough to let you walk on granite without bending. . They are hinged so you can walk normally, flexing off your toes to push forward. . Their points are far enough apart to minimize the "balling-up" of snow between the teeth and frame and if it does, you can easily kick the snow off without taking the device off. . Their teeth/points are close to the sides of your shoes enabling good bite on steep traverses. . The front points are bent down to provide excellent forward bite without fear of injury. . Their large heel points work great while heel-plunging straight down a snow slope. . They are easy to fit most any size, width, or type of shoe. In reality, you can kick-and-scratch big platforms to stand on into most any frozen, crusty snow surface faster and more efficiently on steep traverses and you can toe-in and go straight up with confidence using their bent-down front points. Their big teeth hold onto anything, even granite and slippery rocks and logs on creek-crossings. What was a little scary to walk on (you feel a little slippery under foot) totally changes when you put teeth under your feet! Uncertainty goes away as your grip to the slope increases. Side Note #1: Snowshoes, even those with lots of teeth underneath, are not safe on steep, out-of-track traverses because they can lose their grip and spin or slide sideways causing you to fall and tumble down the slope into something hard below. On steep descents, when you want to go straight down, they can actually allow you to ski or skate pretty well because they don't grip very deeply. The broader surface gives you more flotation, but less bite (depending on snow conditions). Going straight up is pretty good on their big teeth under foot, but because of the broad surface area, you can't toe-in very deeply and can sometimes slide backwards. Springtime consolidated snow does not require snowshoes. Shallow powder snow on dirt or trail, any month, in the mountains does not. New, deep, powder snow in the fall does. Snowshoes demand a different manner of walking and can be very fatiguing to use. Side Note #2: Always have three points of contact between your body and the snow to maintain your balance and minimize falls. (Traction devices minimize slipping). Use two poles with powder-snow baskets (not the small diameter little discs for hard-packed snow or dirt) placed at a distance from your body, not close to your body like when summer hiking. One can be a normal hiking pole while the other should be a self-arrest pole (talked about in another article). In case you couldn't tell, after six years and 36 months living on snow using Kahtoola Hiking crampons, we don't leave home without them, even if we only suspect encountering steep patches or drifts of snow across the trail! As always, we hope this information helps you decide what to trust your life with when miles from help. However, no written or heard word or watched actions beat actual experience and practice. Consider attending some sort of snow skills training course where your instructors can demonstrate to you how to use your snow safety equipment, then watch you as you practice to perfect a skill. C 2016 Mountain Education, Inc. Ned Tibbits, Director Mountain Education, Inc. ned at mountaineducation.org > _______________________________________________ Pct-L mailing list Pct-L at backcountry.net To unsubscribe, or change options visit: http://mailman.backcountry.net/mailman/listinfo/pct-l List Archives: http://mailman.backcountry.net/pipermail/pct-l/ All content is copyrighted by the respective authors. Reproduction is prohibited without express permission. From sdscpcts at yahoo.com Wed Nov 9 13:52:26 2016 From: sdscpcts at yahoo.com (sdscpcts) Date: Wed, 09 Nov 2016 11:52:26 -0800 Subject: [pct-l] SB Section hike-Mckenzie Pass to Hwy 140 Fish Lake Message-ID: <6xocq3l4uqvhfmhjk0ys147n.1478720182911@email.android.com> Herb,? ? ? ?To get to McKenzie Pass take Amtrac to Eugene. From there take highway 126 east to highway 242, which goes to McKenzie Pass.?? ? ? To get to Klamath Falls from highway 140 should be fairly easy as there is a lot of traffic between Medford and Klamath Falls that uses this road.?? ? I would recommend starting about the third week of July.? ? ? ? ? ? Mataguay Connector? Sent from my Galaxy Tab? A -------- Original message --------From: Dennis Phelan Date: 10/19/16 3:41 PM (GMT-08:00) To: Herb Stroh Cc: pct-l at backcountry.net Subject: Re: [pct-l] SB Section hike-Mckenzie Pass to Hwy 140 Fish Lake Mckenzie Pass is just outside of the town of Sisters which is close to Bend,? I would go to Bend.? I would go in the beginning of August; less mosquitos.?? I am not sure about the amount of traffic on hwy 140, but it is the only way to get to Fish Lake so would expect a fair amount of traffic, however Fish lake is not a huge resort, so there will not be a ton of traffic. You might consider getting a room at Fish lake and they might be able to help you get a ride to a major town. On Wed, Oct 19, 2016 at 1:01 PM, Herb Stroh wrote: > Need a diversion from politics so am planning my 2017 southbound section > hike: McKenzie Pass (1981.3) to Fish Lake (1770.9). > > I can go whenever-opinions as to the best time of year? > > I will be using the train to get to the trailhead and return home. I can > get off at the Amtrak Station in Chemult or Eugene and will hitch or look > for other transportation to McKenzie. I assume Eugene will provide more > options-right? Finally, is a hitch from the trailhead at Hwy 140 to Klamath > Falls feasible, i.e. sufficient traffic to catch a lift? > > Thanks. > > Herb > _______________________________________________ > Pct-L mailing list > Pct-L at backcountry.net > To unsubscribe, or change options visit: > http://mailman.backcountry.net/mailman/listinfo/pct-l > > List Archives: > http://mailman.backcountry.net/pipermail/pct-l/ > All content is copyrighted by the respective authors. > Reproduction is prohibited without express permission. > _______________________________________________ Pct-L mailing list Pct-L at backcountry.net To unsubscribe, or change options visit: http://mailman.backcountry.net/mailman/listinfo/pct-l List Archives: http://mailman.backcountry.net/pipermail/pct-l/ All content is copyrighted by the respective authors. Reproduction is prohibited without express permission. From baidarker at gmail.com Wed Nov 9 18:17:39 2016 From: baidarker at gmail.com (Scott Williams) Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2016 16:17:39 -0800 Subject: [pct-l] Microspikes vs. Hiking Crampons?? In-Reply-To: <03e201d23aba$38c9e810$aa5db830$@mountaineducation.org> References: <2f2e01d2388b$37d96790$a78c36b0$@mountaineducation.org> <03e201d23aba$38c9e810$aa5db830$@mountaineducation.org> Message-ID: The choice of hiking crampons vs microspikes definitely has a lot to do with the kind of snow you're traversing, and the amount of it. In 2010 on the PCT, I'd used a rubber, webbed, traction device, similar to microspikes, while going over Fuller Ridge in lots of snow and had them roll on me numerous times and eventually catch on a buried branch and break. I finished that section of trail with traction on only one foot and an ice ax. I bought Kahtoola Aluminum Crampons (a hiking crampon with the front two teeth bent down so you don't stab your calf) for the High Sierra, along with an ice ax, and as a matter of fact was wearing them when I met Ned atop Kearsarge Pass in mid June, the day of Calorie's airlift. Thanks for the help Ned! But, Scott, you're right, they are more time consuming to take on and off compared to microspikes. As we were on snow most of the time that year, we did that infrequently and it was not a problem. The support they gave and the ability to cut track in new crust, was well worth the trouble. Those full on hiking crampons were one of my favorite pieces of gear by the end of the hike. Two of us used them and both of us loved them. Two years later on the CDT we had much less snow when we entered the San Juans in June and I carried the crampons most of the time and only used them infrequently. By the end of the section, I wished I'd brought my microspikes, which would have been perfect as they are lighter and definitely easier to pack. Yesterday I climbed Mt. Diablo with several guys who hiked the PCT this year, and had entered the High Sierra in late May, Hiker Guy and Venture. As a matter of fact they met you Ned, on the day of an airlift too. Keep up the good work! But they had enough snow in late May, that both of them really appreciated having full on hiking cramps, in their cases, Kahtoola steel hiking crampons and ice axes. Hiker Guy gave them a rave review when we were catching up on yesterday's hike. So, it really depends on the amount and type of snow you end up dealing with. Given lots of hard, crusty snow, I'll take the hiking crampons any day over the microspikes for their ability to cut new step in nasty steeps and dangerous traverses. They simply allow you to keep your foot fall level on a steep slope. But, in a situation where you just need them for occasional traction and will be carrying them most of the time, microspikes win hands down. Both have a purpose, and both are great given the appropriate need. It all comes down to the kind of flexibility you need for many things on a long hike. Keep watching the weather. In a drought year, or late in spring, the microspikes should be fine, but earlier in the season, or in the case of a year with lots of snow, the hiking cramps are a definite favorite. Shroomer On Wed, Nov 9, 2016 at 10:51 AM, wrote: > And you?re absolutely right, Scott! > > > > If you will be walking on steep, consolidated (hard, frozen), springtime > snow in the tracks of others, microspikes are the way to go! > > If you want to make your own trail on these surface conditions, hiking > crampons are safer. > > > > You?ve got to know the snow surface conditions that you?ll be walking > into, how to make wise decisions about your route and time of day to be > walking on the snow, and how to stay balanced and maximize traction to > prevent slip-and-falls. This may sound like a lot of worry, but once you > get to know this beautiful aspect of mountain life, it becomes > second-nature, your confidence soars, and you can go wherever you want > within your skills abilities (no trails or awkward scrambling to limit your > exploring). > > > > > > Ned Tibbits, Director > > Mountain Education, Inc. > > ned at mountaineducation.org > > > > From: Scott Diamond [mailto:scott.diamond.mail at gmail.com] > Sent: Tuesday, November 8, 2016 4:24 PM > To: Ned Tibbits > Cc: PCT ; johnmuirtrail at yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [pct-l] Microspikes vs. Hiking Crampons?? > > > > This subject does come up all the time. Based on Ned's advice last winter, > for my PCT hike I brought Kahtoola Hiking crampons but I'd like to provide > some input on why I wish I'd brought Microspikes > > > > What I Don't Like About Crampons > > * Heavier than microspikes > * Do not pack easily. The microspikes drop into your pack, crampons > have sharp points and need to be strapped to the outside of your pack. > Leaving Kennedy Meadows your pack is full already and finding a place to > strap crampons can be a challenge > * The crampons are a pain to take on and off. Microspikes easily > slip on and off. > > Mostly it comes down to ?Ned's comments on "out-of-track." I entered the > Sierra Nevada mid June and didn't have any out-of-track hiking. I think > this is typical for most PCT hikers. I didn't conduct a scientific survey > but I don't think I saw anyone else wearing crampons. Everyone else was > either wearing microspikes or didn't have traction devices at all. > > > > Your mileage may vary but I thought I'd share another perspective. > > > > -Scott > > > > > > On Sun, Nov 6, 2016 at 4:09 PM, ned at mountaineducation.org> > wrote: > > Traction aides for the PCT and JMT "early season" Thru Hiker: > > > Kahtoola's Microspikes vs. Hiking Crampons > > > > This comes up every year, so I thought I'd cover the subject from our point > of view of teaching about the role and use of traction aides in thru hiking > for the last 34 years. As with all gear, we approach the discussion from > the > priority of design and reliable function. > > > > Kahtoola: "Our Microspikes weren't designed for traversing anything steep. > They were meant for walking on flat, crusty snow and maybe going straight > up > or down moderate slopes." > > > > Kahtoola sponsored Mountain Education with their Hiking Crampons and > Microspikes back in 2010. Three of us with different sized feet, weight, > and > styles of hiking tested them on the Pacific Crest/John Muir Trails between > Cottonwood Pass and Evolution Valley across April, May, and June and, for > the most part, on 4 to 10-feet of snow. Over the last six years since then, > we have beaten up those original pieces of equipment on granite, gravel, > ice, snow, and short stretches of dry trail and here is what we'd say about > them. > > > > Despite all the different on-trail ways we could think of to prevent this > catastrophe, Microspikes commonly rolled off our shoes when traversing > steep, crusty snow out-of-track. We tied them into our shoe's laces and > even > added over-the-instep straps to hold them on, but to no avail. As soon as > one, usually the downhill foot, which was the one taking the most lateral > force, would roll off, that shoe would not hold to the surface snow and > slip, causing a fall, tumble, and immediate self-arrest. This sometimes can > be prevented, however, if you walk either gingerly or very aggressively. > > > > Walking gingerly across steep, crusty, cold-morning snow out-of-track is > not > advised because you need to stomp even just a little bit to get their > little > spikes to "bite" into the surface snow. By not stomping, or at least > kicking > and scratching each step's foothold, you risk not getting enough of a grip > on the snow and risking a slip-and-fall. > > > > Walking aggressively on inclined, hard snow means landing hard on your > heel's uphill edges and staying on those edges all the way forward to your > toes. If you don't have shoes that can hold an edge, you've already got one > strike against you, so you'd better stomp and scratch.a lot! There's no > more > efficient way to quickly end a dream snow-hike than to slip, fall, tumble, > and crash into something hard on the way down the slope. > > > > Stomp and scratch means that for every step you take, for example up the > snow-incline to Forester Pass, if there aren't any footsteps before you in > which to also step (I'll get into this in a minute), you'll have to make > your own flat (side to side) platforms on which to stand before you take > your next step. Typically, you step forward, while balanced on one leg and > two poles out to your sides (three point stance), and stomp as hard an > impression into the crusty snow as you can, then repetitively stomp and > scratch out that platform to make it wide enough to hold your whole foot. > Then stand on it and test it for "roll-out" (if it's only half as wide as > your foot, you can totter off it, twisting your ankle and making an > emergency move sideways to try and stop a subsequent fall) before you make > your next step. This is best done with hiking crampons, but Microspikes may > do, depending on snow conditions. > > > > I keep referring to > > ?? > > "out-of-track." What's this? A boot-track is made when a > snow-hiker walks through the snow leaving a trail of footprints. When many > do this, the track becomes flat, side to side, because that's what's made > when you stand or walk vertically or plumb. When you go across a slope > anywhere else out of this track, your ankles will roll over to conform to > the angle of the slope, unless your shoes can hold an edge to it. > > > > Snow-hiking affords you the freedom to go anywhere you want. You don't have > a trail to follow nor signs telling you to stay on the trail. If you want > to > go straight up, make your own switchbacks, traverse a slope, or glissade > down a snow-ramp, you can do that without damaging the alpine environment. > So, if you need to pick a route away from camp across hard, steep, crusty, > morning snow and do not have a path to follow (because you didn't want to > go > that way or you were the first to be there for the season), you'd better > have great boots with firm edges and strong uppers or be wearing hiking > crampons. > > > > Now, as I said, Microspike "roll-outs" don't happen with everybody. You can > be wise about their shortcomings, more careful with your foot placements, > and do just fine, but we had a helluva time with them, primarily on the > steep, snowy traverses down into the many creeks we had to cross going > north > up the Sierra. (Remember, snow will remain the longest on the northern > aspects of things like ridges and peaks and in the shade while melting > fastest off the southern aspects of the same). > > > > Why do they "roll out"? Primarily because they don't have metal frames that > wrap up the side of the shoe into which your foot slides as you load it on > a > steep slope. The "rubber band" method of holding the chain/teeth network to > your shoe doesn't have "sides," thus allows your shoe to slide sideways and > out of it. Rarely do they come off when going straight up or down a slope. > > > > Microspikes do functionally well going straight up and down slopes, too. > So, > for your toe-in ascents and heel-plunge descents, they work fine. Their > weakness is on steep traverses. > > > > Let me summarize our thoughts on these rubber-band-mounted traction > devices: > > > . They are designed for flat surfaces, moderately sloped traverses, ups, > and > downs. > . They can roll off your shoes when you traverse steep, hard snow slopes. > . They kick and scratch moderately well compared to their bigger brother. > . They are lighter and take up less room than their bigger brother. > . You can walk on rock and dirt with them just fine. > . They can fill with snow and not work easier than hiking crampons. > . They don't get as good a bite as hiking crampons (shallower points). > > > > Other product designs to be wary of: > > > . Teeth/spikes only under the ball of the foot (unless you walk on your > toes, I suppose). > . Teeth/spikes only under the instep of your foot (unless you never walk > off > your toes). > . Teeth/spikes never near the edges of your foot (no steep traverses for > you). > . Really lightweight materials that will bend easily. > . Flimsy mounting methods. > > > > Hiking crampons are designed for hiking (vs. climbing) and will give you > the > most reliability, durability, and confident performance in hair-raising > situations while still providing forward flexibility for walking, a small > package for storage, and only a few more ounces in carrying weight. > Relative > over-kill in design is a good thing when it affects your balance and > safety! > > > > It is very important to note that climbing crampons are not appropriate for > walking. > > > . Their two forward fangs (designed for climbing ice walls, etc.) can > lacerate your lower legs. > . Their rigid frames do not flex for walking. > > > > Why do hiking crampons work so well? > > > . Their metal frames wrap up alongside the sole of your shoes (you can't > roll out!). > . They often have front and rear metal bails that hang onto your boot > welts. > . They have strong over-the-top-of-the-foot strapping to hold it to your > shoe. > . They have longer steel or thick aluminum teeth to dig into the snow > deeper. > . Their teeth/points are strong enough to let you walk on granite without > bending. > . They are hinged so you can walk normally, flexing off your toes to push > forward. > . Their points are far enough apart to minimize the "balling-up" of snow > between the teeth and frame and if it does, you can easily kick the snow > off > without taking the device off. > . Their teeth/points are close to the sides of your shoes enabling good > bite > on steep traverses. > . The front points are bent down to provide excellent forward bite without > fear of injury. > . Their large heel points work great while heel-plunging straight down a > snow slope. > . They are easy to fit most any size, width, or type of shoe. > > > > In reality, you can kick-and-scratch big platforms to stand on into most > any > frozen, crusty snow surface faster and more efficiently on steep traverses > and you can toe-in and go straight up with confidence using their bent-down > front points. Their big teeth hold onto anything, even granite and slippery > rocks and logs on creek-crossings. What was a little scary to walk on (you > feel a little slippery under foot) totally changes when you put teeth under > your feet! Uncertainty goes away as your grip to the slope increases. > > > > Side Note #1: Snowshoes, even those with lots of teeth underneath, are not > safe on steep, out-of-track traverses because they can lose their grip and > spin or slide sideways causing you to fall and tumble down the slope into > something hard below. On steep descents, when you want to go straight down, > they can actually allow you to ski or skate pretty well because they don't > grip very deeply. The broader surface gives you more flotation, but less > bite (depending on snow conditions). Going straight up is pretty good on > their big teeth under foot, but because of the broad surface area, you > can't > toe-in very deeply and can sometimes slide backwards. Springtime > consolidated snow does not require snowshoes. Shallow powder snow on dirt > or > trail, any month, in the mountains does not. New, deep, powder snow in the > fall does. Snowshoes demand a different manner of walking and can be very > fatiguing to use. > > > > Side Note #2: Always have three points of contact between your body and the > snow to maintain your balance and minimize falls. (Traction devices > minimize > slipping). Use two poles with powder-snow baskets (not the small diameter > little discs for hard-packed snow or dirt) placed at a distance from your > body, not close to your body like when summer hiking. One can be a normal > hiking pole while the other should be a self-arrest pole (talked about in > another article). > > > > In case you couldn't tell, after six years and 36 months living on snow > using Kahtoola Hiking crampons, we don't leave home without them, even if > we > only suspect encountering steep patches or drifts of snow across the trail! > > > > As always, we hope this information helps you decide what to trust your > life > with when miles from help. However, no written or heard word or watched > actions beat actual experience and practice. Consider attending some sort > of > snow skills training course where your instructors can demonstrate to you > how to use your snow safety equipment, then watch you as you practice to > perfect a skill. > > C 2016 Mountain Education, Inc. > > > > > > Ned Tibbits, Director > > Mountain Education, Inc. > > ned at mountaineducation.org ned at mountaineducation.org > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Pct-L mailing list > Pct-L at backcountry.net > To unsubscribe, or change options visit: > http://mailman.backcountry.net/mailman/listinfo/pct-l > > List Archives: > http://mailman.backcountry.net/pipermail/pct-l/ > All content is copyrighted by the respective authors. > Reproduction is prohibited without express permission. > > > > _______________________________________________ > Pct-L mailing list > Pct-L at backcountry.net > To unsubscribe, or change options visit: > http://mailman.backcountry.net/mailman/listinfo/pct-l > > List Archives: > http://mailman.backcountry.net/pipermail/pct-l/ > All content is copyrighted by the respective authors. > Reproduction is prohibited without express permission. > From reinholdmetzger at cox.net Thu Nov 10 21:32:36 2016 From: reinholdmetzger at cox.net (Reinhold Metzger) Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2016 19:32:36 -0800 Subject: [pct-l] FREE BEER TO SENIORS Message-ID: <5559702c-2a7f-8dda-d251-ff99db7c1302@cox.net> To all my Marine, Army, Navy, Air Force and Senior hiking buddies!!! Being that today is the USMC BIRTHDAY I have been doing some drinking, I mean thinking. Some folks say I do some of my best thinking when I am drinking....I'll drink to that. Well anyhow I have been thinking...there ought to be free beer to Seniors...especially Senior Veterans. I mean we served our country, we paid our taxes, we paid into the system, it's time we get what is due us. I say free beer to Seniors should be part of the Social Security Package....we earned it. Yes Sir,....FREE BEER TO SENIORS....I'LL DRINK TO THAT!!! Seee,....I told you....I do some good thinking when I am drinking. Reinhold Metzger Your serious drinking...I mean thinking, trail buddy. --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From meridith.rosendahl at gmail.com Fri Nov 11 10:26:16 2016 From: meridith.rosendahl at gmail.com (Meridith Rosendahl) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2016 08:26:16 -0800 Subject: [pct-l] Is the list out of business? Message-ID: I have not heard from the list for months, but recently got a couple of issues from June, or at least messages from June. What's going on, anything? Piper's Mom From baidarker at gmail.com Fri Nov 11 11:38:56 2016 From: baidarker at gmail.com (Scott Williams) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2016 09:38:56 -0800 Subject: [pct-l] Is the list out of business? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: It's working. There've been a number of posts lately. I find many of them in my Spam file and have to bring them back. Good to hear from you Piper's Mom. How's Piper doing? Shroomer On Fri, Nov 11, 2016 at 8:26 AM, Meridith Rosendahl < meridith.rosendahl at gmail.com> wrote: > I have not heard from the list for months, but recently got a couple of > issues from June, or at least messages from June. What's going on, > anything? > > Piper's Mom > _______________________________________________ > Pct-L mailing list > Pct-L at backcountry.net > To unsubscribe, or change options visit: > http://mailman.backcountry.net/mailman/listinfo/pct-l > > List Archives: > http://mailman.backcountry.net/pipermail/pct-l/ > All content is copyrighted by the respective authors. > Reproduction is prohibited without express permission. > From ojaibird at gmail.com Thu Nov 10 22:15:26 2016 From: ojaibird at gmail.com (ojai bird) Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2016 20:15:26 -0800 Subject: [pct-l] FREE BEER TO SENIORS In-Reply-To: <5559702c-2a7f-8dda-d251-ff99db7c1302@cox.net> References: <5559702c-2a7f-8dda-d251-ff99db7c1302@cox.net> Message-ID: Excellent idea ! Free beer ! How do we sign up ? On Thu, Nov 10, 2016 at 7:32 PM, Reinhold Metzger wrote: > To all my Marine, Army, Navy, Air Force and Senior hiking buddies!!! > Being that today is the USMC BIRTHDAY I have been doing some drinking, I > mean thinking. > > Some folks say I do some of my best thinking when I am drinking....I'll > drink to that. > > Well anyhow I have been thinking...there ought to be free beer to > Seniors...especially > Senior Veterans. > I mean we served our country, we paid our taxes, we paid into the system, > it's time we > get what is due us. > > I say free beer to Seniors should be part of the Social Security > Package....we > earned it. > > Yes Sir,....FREE BEER TO SENIORS....I'LL DRINK TO THAT!!! > > Seee,....I told you....I do some good thinking when I am drinking. > > Reinhold Metzger > Your serious drinking...I mean thinking, trail buddy. > > > > > > --- > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > https://www.avast.com/antivirus > > _______________________________________________ > Pct-L mailing list > Pct-L at backcountry.net > To unsubscribe, or change options visit: > http://mailman.backcountry.net/mailman/listinfo/pct-l > > List Archives: > http://mailman.backcountry.net/pipermail/pct-l/ > All content is copyrighted by the respective authors. > Reproduction is prohibited without express permission. > From igellenig at gmail.com Fri Nov 11 15:15:52 2016 From: igellenig at gmail.com (Ellen Shopes) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2016 13:15:52 -0800 Subject: [pct-l] Sleeping bags In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Depends on how warm you sleep. Eric the Black just compiled a pretty extensive list. I used down, 15 degree bag for the whole trail. No Butt From billyvoid56 at yahoo.com Fri Nov 11 16:54:32 2016 From: billyvoid56 at yahoo.com (sandy) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2016 14:54:32 -0800 Subject: [pct-l] Satellite Communicators Message-ID: <7ru77yf91oiiuyh9j0vpsqap.1478904872078@email.android.com> Hi all Sanman here, I'm in the 2017 class comming up and needed your opinions on satellite communcators.I'm currently looking at the Delorme inreach Explorer communicator, and wanted all your opinions on this subject. Look forward to hearing from you all soon.Thx Sanman Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE smartphone From jodyinjc at yahoo.com Fri Nov 11 18:43:27 2016 From: jodyinjc at yahoo.com (jody boyles) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2016 16:43:27 -0800 Subject: [pct-l] FREE BEER TO SENIORS In-Reply-To: <5559702c-2a7f-8dda-d251-ff99db7c1302@cox.net> References: <5559702c-2a7f-8dda-d251-ff99db7c1302@cox.net> Message-ID: <1120787E-6FAB-44A2-9359-9601084C4746@yahoo.com> I'll drink to that :)) Cheers!! And thank you, sir , for your service !!! Tailgater Sent from my iPhone > On Nov 10, 2016, at 7:32 PM, Reinhold Metzger wrote: > > To all my Marine, Army, Navy, Air Force and Senior hiking buddies!!! > Being that today is the USMC BIRTHDAY I have been doing some drinking, I mean thinking. > > Some folks say I do some of my best thinking when I am drinking....I'll drink to that. > > Well anyhow I have been thinking...there ought to be free beer to Seniors...especially > Senior Veterans. > I mean we served our country, we paid our taxes, we paid into the system, it's time we > get what is due us. > > I say free beer to Seniors should be part of the Social Security Package....we > earned it. > > Yes Sir,....FREE BEER TO SENIORS....I'LL DRINK TO THAT!!! > > Seee,....I told you....I do some good thinking when I am drinking. > > Reinhold Metzger > Your serious drinking...I mean thinking, trail buddy. > > > > > > --- > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > https://www.avast.com/antivirus > > _______________________________________________ > Pct-L mailing list > Pct-L at backcountry.net > To unsubscribe, or change options visit: > http://mailman.backcountry.net/mailman/listinfo/pct-l > > List Archives: > http://mailman.backcountry.net/pipermail/pct-l/ > All content is copyrighted by the respective authors. > Reproduction is prohibited without express permission. From brick at brickrobbins.com Fri Nov 11 20:15:29 2016 From: brick at brickrobbins.com (Brick Robbins) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2016 18:15:29 -0800 Subject: [pct-l] Satellite Communicators In-Reply-To: <7ru77yf91oiiuyh9j0vpsqap.1478904872078@email.android.com> References: <7ru77yf91oiiuyh9j0vpsqap.1478904872078@email.android.com> Message-ID: this will get you all the prior posts the list on the inreach. That may help https://www.google.com/search?q=site%3Abackcountry.net+inreach if that wraps https://goo.gl/1yYcmd On Fri, Nov 11, 2016 at 2:54 PM, sandy wrote: > > > > Hi all Sanman here, I'm in the 2017 class comming up and needed your opinions on satellite communcators.I'm currently looking at the Delorme inreach Explorer communicator, and wanted all your opinions on this subject. Look forward to hearing from you all soon.Thx Sanman > > > Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE smartphone > _______________________________________________ > Pct-L mailing list > Pct-L at backcountry.net > To unsubscribe, or change options visit: > http://mailman.backcountry.net/mailman/listinfo/pct-l > > List Archives: > http://mailman.backcountry.net/pipermail/pct-l/ > All content is copyrighted by the respective authors. > Reproduction is prohibited without express permission. From reinholdmetzger at cox.net Sat Nov 12 06:35:54 2016 From: reinholdmetzger at cox.net (Reinhold Metzger) Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2016 04:35:54 -0800 Subject: [pct-l] Snow Hiking with a Sled & choosing Boots Message-ID: Hey Ned, You are right about using a sled for winter hiking, especially on extended trips when the packs are heavy with all the extra cold weather gear, snow gear and extra food and like you said, you can bring a lot of luxuries. Did you know there is a race in Alaska every February, one week before the world famous 1000 mile Iditarod sled dog race, called the Iditarod Trail Invitational & Iditarod Trail Extreme? It used to be 170 miles but was extended to 350 miles in 1997 and follows the historic snow covered Iditarod trail Contestants go on foot, sky, or fat bike. John Stamstad, a Mountain Biking Hall of Famer, turned Ultra Marathoner has won that race 8 years in a row in 1993,94,95,96,97,98,99, & 2000. John would go on foot, "PUSHING" a sled rather than pulling. John is an amazing athlete, weighs only 135 pounds but has the stamina of a bulldozer and has set some amazing records, including biking the Continental Divide Bike Trail in 18 days..the prior best time was 6 weeks. I got to know John when he called me in 2005 about the John Muir Trail. It went something like this..."Ring,ring,ring...hello...are you Reinhold Metzger?...yes...I'm John Stamstad, I want to break your JMT record...hey John that's great". To make a long story short, we talked about the JMT about an hour, I gave him all the information and advice I could and wished good luck. I called him about the time he was going to finish the trail and it went something like that..."Hey John, did you break the record...Naaahhh...why, what happened?...my shoes fell apart, I tried taping them with duct tape but they kept falling apart so I bailed out...Bummer". More JMT record attempts went up in smoke due to shoe or foot problems than anything else. It is important to have shoes that fit "YOUR" feet without causing "HOT SPOTS" from pressure or friction points and are sturdy enough to not fall apart from the pounding of a rocky trail. Remember not all feet are alike and what worked for a friend may not work for you. Before you buy a shoe, try it out by walking around in the store for 2-3 hours and if it feels right, buy it and then take a hike or two and see how they feel on the trail. Better to recognize a problem before you start your hike, than after you started your hike. What has worked for me are High-Tev "Vector" Been using them for about 20 years and just love them. But remember, not all feet are alike. Hey Ned, another good thing about a sled..if your girlfriend is not into hiking, you can put the girlfriend in the sled and then the two of you can enjoy the wilderness. Kidding aside gang,...listen to Ned, he knows what he is talking about. JMT Reinhold .................................... Ned wrote: Snow Travel: Pull a Sled, Instead! Summer hikers, who are confined to the use of backpacks, don't realize that in the winter, when everything is covered in smooth snow, they can put all their stuff in a sled or pulk and tow it behind them! I've been using one for 32 years.. Certainly this is nothing new. Snow-bound adventurers and polar explorers have been using them for a few centuries. So, from a practical perspective, what's so great about the idea? Pros: - You're not high-centered because of your pack: better balance and less face-plants in snow. - Less fatigue when maneuvering over consolidated snow. - You can carry more gear and luxuries! - Your legs do all the work, so it's less hard on the back. - You don't feel its weight behind you (if the snow is consolidated*). - Packing is nothing, just throw everything in the sled! - Emergency medical evacuation tool. - Emergency shelter. - Dog bed! Cons: - More fatigue when pulling through fresh, soft powder snow. - On downhills, it pushes you, so you are the going-forward brakes! - Wide turns only, like a long truck, so it's not good in the trees. - It slides both ways, even backwards (unless you have reverse braking). - On steep, snowy traverses, some tend to roll or swing sideways a bit. - May not fit in your car. What is a sled? There are many different designs, but most end up as a rigid, slippery, enclosed container or open bed pulled by rope or rigid poles attached to your hips. Mountain Education, Inc. has been using those made by Patrick Smith (formerly of Mountainsmith) and his company called Kifaru. https://store.kifaru.net/sleds-c8.aspx These utilize a rigid-pole design of pulling (instead of a loose rope) that we like better because when we stop on the downhill, the sled doesn't run us over! They are shallow, rectangular, fiberglass sleds that have "tracers" or skegs underneath to keep it tracking right behind you. They come in different lengths and some can be converted to carrying an enclosed child seat, too! What does it allow you to do? I can bring more luxuries, food, and gear that make trips into the backcountry more comfortable, warm, and fun without strain or fatigue! They are ideal for short, basecamp styled trips, but I have taken our 7-foot rescue sled down the full length of the John Muir Trail in the High Sierra, over all its steep passes and across all those creeks, for four weeks carrying heavy and bulky camera and climbing gear without a problem. You can bring cots, huge tents with wood stoves, chairs, BBQs, wood for the fire (yes, you can build a fire on snow!), extra boots, blankets, and pillows, solar array, family/group gear, and all that heavy, bulky stuff you could never while backpacking. Basically, it is your pickup truck on snow! --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From sesexton at gci.net Sat Nov 12 08:18:32 2016 From: sesexton at gci.net (sesexton at gci.net) Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2016 05:18:32 -0900 Subject: [pct-l] Snow Hiking with a Sled & choosing Boots In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: https://ultrasignup.com/register.aspx?did=40614 Sent from my iPhone > On Nov 12, 2016, at 3:35 AM, Reinhold Metzger wrote: > > Hey Ned, > You are right about using a sled for winter hiking, especially on extended > trips when the packs are heavy with all the extra cold weather gear, snow > gear and extra food and like you said, you can bring a lot of luxuries. > > Did you know there is a race in Alaska every February, one week before the > world famous 1000 mile Iditarod sled dog race, called the Iditarod Trail > Invitational & Iditarod Trail Extreme? > It used to be 170 miles but was extended to 350 miles in 1997 and follows > the historic snow covered Iditarod trail > Contestants go on foot, sky, or fat bike. > > John Stamstad, a Mountain Biking Hall of Famer, turned Ultra Marathoner > has won that race 8 years in a row in 1993,94,95,96,97,98,99, & 2000. > John would go on foot, "PUSHING" a sled rather than pulling. > > John is an amazing athlete, weighs only 135 pounds but has the stamina > of a bulldozer and has set some amazing records, including biking the > Continental Divide Bike Trail in 18 days..the prior best time was 6 weeks. > > I got to know John when he called me in 2005 about the John Muir Trail. > It went something like this..."Ring,ring,ring...hello...are you Reinhold > Metzger?...yes...I'm John Stamstad, I want to break your JMT record...hey > John that's great". > To make a long story short, we talked about the JMT about an hour, I gave > him all the information and advice I could and wished good luck. > > I called him about the time he was going to finish the trail and it went > something like that..."Hey John, did you break the record...Naaahhh...why, > what happened?...my shoes fell apart, I tried taping them with duct tape > but they kept falling apart so I bailed out...Bummer". > > More JMT record attempts went up in smoke due to shoe or foot problems > than anything else. > > It is important to have shoes that fit "YOUR" feet without causing "HOT > SPOTS" from pressure or friction points and are sturdy enough to not fall > apart from the pounding of a rocky trail. > Remember not all feet are alike and what worked for a friend may not work > for you. From jjolson58 at gmail.com Sat Nov 12 18:17:27 2016 From: jjolson58 at gmail.com (Jeffrey Olson) Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2016 17:17:27 -0700 Subject: [pct-l] Satellite Communicators In-Reply-To: <7ru77yf91oiiuyh9j0vpsqap.1478904872078@email.android.com> References: <7ru77yf91oiiuyh9j0vpsqap.1478904872078@email.android.com> Message-ID: <3f8e9e5f-6c01-b98c-a6af-ce4329823af4@gmail.com> I used a SPOT last spring for a couple weeks and traded it for the inReach. The spot made my family feel better about me being off-trail in the desert, but the inReach feels like a real communications tool. I can actually communicate... For me it was worth the extra money... Jeff On 11/11/2016 3:54 PM, sandy wrote: > > > Hi all Sanman here, I'm in the 2017 class comming up and needed your opinions on satellite communcators.I'm currently looking at the Delorme inreach Explorer communicator, and wanted all your opinions on this subject. Look forward to hearing from you all soon.Thx Sanman > > > Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE smartphone > _______________________________________________ > Pct-L mailing list > Pct-L at backcountry.net > To unsubscribe, or change options visit: > http://mailman.backcountry.net/mailman/listinfo/pct-l > > List Archives: > http://mailman.backcountry.net/pipermail/pct-l/ > All content is copyrighted by the respective authors. > Reproduction is prohibited without express permission. --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From robert.riess at cox.net Sun Nov 13 12:01:04 2016 From: robert.riess at cox.net (Robert E. Riess) Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2016 10:01:04 -0800 Subject: [pct-l] Osprey Packs Message-ID: <1FFA72666BA64280AE34FE614C9A6734@RobertERiessPC> You sure see a lot of Osprey packs out on the trail. I hike comfortably with my full Bear Vault 450 inside my Exos 48. Many excellent Osprey packs are 25% off at Mountain Gear. BR From sam at samwhited.com Sun Nov 13 12:44:03 2016 From: sam at samwhited.com (Sam Whited) Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2016 12:44:03 -0600 Subject: [pct-l] Osprey Packs In-Reply-To: <1FFA72666BA64280AE34FE614C9A6734@RobertERiessPC> References: <1FFA72666BA64280AE34FE614C9A6734@RobertERiessPC> Message-ID: On Sun, Nov 13, 2016 at 12:01 PM, Robert E. Riess wrote: > You sure see a lot of Osprey packs out on the trail. I hike comfortably with my full Bear Vault 450 inside my Exos 48. Many excellent Osprey packs are 25% off at Mountain Gear. BR I've never been a huge fan of Osprey packs; had one for most of the AT in 2014 and after the third time the same zipper broke and I had to go into town and fight with their exchange people over the phone I gave up and got a Gregory Z pack at a friends recommendation. It was the same size, but everything just seemed to fit better and the storage spaces were better contrived so it was a lot easier to access things. The shoulder straps on the Gregory weren't quite as comfortable, but I liked the rest of the bag so much more that it didn't especially bother me. The Gregory came with a rain cover too, which was a nice little bonus (although for all I know some of the Ospreys do, mine just didn't). Just my two cents, your mileage may varry. ?Sam -- Sam Whited pub 4096R/54083AE104EA7AD3 From ksmraleigh at comcast.net Fri Nov 25 16:50:57 2016 From: ksmraleigh at comcast.net (Ken Martin) Date: Fri, 25 Nov 2016 22:50:57 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [pct-l] (no subject) In-Reply-To: <409551086.21246121.1480114146262.JavaMail.zimbra@comcast.net> Message-ID: <1567334914.21249054.1480114257942.JavaMail.zimbra@comcast.net> Once again we seem to have bounced from the list. Can you please restore us? Thanks. From cmalex at gmail.com Sat Nov 26 12:09:08 2016 From: cmalex at gmail.com (Chris Alexander) Date: Sat, 26 Nov 2016 18:09:08 +0000 Subject: [pct-l] PCT Photography Book 35% Off! Message-ID: Hi everyone, Anna "Northstar" Sofranko and I have put our Pacific Crest Trail coffee table book on sale for 35% off! It's the biggest discount we've ever offered. The book features many beautiful photographs of the wilderness we all love. It makes a great gift for trail friends, your home support team, or yourself. Preview and buy the book here (ships to US only): http://wanderingthewild.com/book You can also buy from Amazon (ships to a variety of countries): http://www.amazon.com/Pacific-Crest-Trail-Journey-Photographs/dp/B01528MDNG Cheers, Chris "Shutterbug" Alexander (PCT Class of 2012) From christateitelbaum at gmail.com Sat Nov 26 11:21:48 2016 From: christateitelbaum at gmail.com (Christa Teitelbaum) Date: Sat, 26 Nov 2016 09:21:48 -0800 Subject: [pct-l] bounced off the list again Message-ID: I am not getting posts again either. From billyvoid56 at yahoo.com Sat Nov 26 14:34:29 2016 From: billyvoid56 at yahoo.com (sandy) Date: Sat, 26 Nov 2016 12:34:29 -0800 Subject: [pct-l] bounced off the list again Message-ID: Christa got your message fine Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE smartphone -------- Original message -------- From: Christa Teitelbaum Date: 11/26/2016 9:21 AM (GMT-08:00) To: Pct-L at backcountry.net Subject: [pct-l] bounced off the list again I am not getting posts again either. _______________________________________________ Pct-L mailing list Pct-L at backcountry.net To unsubscribe, or change options visit: http://mailman.backcountry.net/mailman/listinfo/pct-l List Archives: http://mailman.backcountry.net/pipermail/pct-l/ All content is copyrighted by the respective authors. Reproduction is prohibited without express permission. From lucecruz13 at gmail.com Sat Nov 26 15:24:46 2016 From: lucecruz13 at gmail.com (Luce Cruz) Date: Sat, 26 Nov 2016 14:24:46 -0700 Subject: [pct-l] Bounced? Probably not Message-ID: I have seen two posts asking about why they haven't been getting the PCT-L messages. Well, first thing you should know is there haven't been any that I have seen posted in the last few days. (sound of crickets chirping) Second, many email providers immediately and without good reason that I know of force the PCT-L list emails into "Spam" folders. If you are unable to change this with a filter or other setting to your email service or client, then they will continue to not show up in your "Inbox" and go straight to "Spam". I created a filter for my Gmail account to make sure that PCT-L messages go into my "Inbox". In fact, without making this setting if necessary, you won't even see this message, something some of you might prefer. ;) More rarely, but not impossible, is your subscription just somehow flakes off from backcountry.net. Hey, it's just a stupid computer, right? But this is least likely to happen. There is a way to check this at backcountry.net, and the link is at the bottom of each and every list email message. If it's just a matter of there has not been any mail, so you haven't received any, than good news! You are still probably alive despite PCT-L not proving such to you! If it's any of the other problems, well, if you ever get this, maybe now you know what the issue is. Or not. That's life. Happy Holidays. -- Luce Cruz From scott.diamond.mail at gmail.com Sat Nov 26 15:39:09 2016 From: scott.diamond.mail at gmail.com (Scott Diamond) Date: Sat, 26 Nov 2016 13:39:09 -0800 Subject: [pct-l] Hardest Climb Message-ID: Given lack of e-mail on this list I thought I'd ask a totally unscientific question "What PCT climb is the hardest?" Or hardest for you. Forester pass, as the high point, would be the logical choice but, speaking for myself, I guess I was so mentally prepared for that that it was really no problem. For some reason I struggled more on Muir pass a few miles north. Sonora pass was tough. Well the climb itself was fine but it seemed to go on forever on the top before finally heading down. In Northern CA the climbs out of Sierra City and Belden get honorable mentions. Any others come to mind for you? How about Southbounders? The hike up to Idylwild is something like 6,000 feet and 20 miles with no water (and probably hot). Was that the toughest for SB? These days the hardest climb I have is probably the stairs up to the donut shop. -Scott From jtpapini at icloud.com Sat Nov 26 16:24:43 2016 From: jtpapini at icloud.com (John Papini) Date: Sat, 26 Nov 2016 17:24:43 -0500 Subject: [pct-l] Hardest Climb In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <07861067-80BB-4993-9B9C-AB2A9706A77F@icloud.com> I found Mather to be the hardest, because snow forced me to climb straight up instead of using switchbacks. The climb down was equally treacherous, as I stumbled dangerously down my own trail, unable to locate the PCT proper. I agree with you that Forrester didn't feel particularly challenging. Woodstock, PCT 2016 Sent from my iPhone > On Nov 26, 2016, at 4:39 PM, Scott Diamond wrote: > > Given lack of e-mail on this list I thought I'd ask a totally unscientific > question "What PCT climb is the hardest?" Or hardest for you. > > Forester pass, as the high point, would be the logical choice but, speaking > for myself, I guess I was so mentally prepared for that that it was really > no problem. For some reason I struggled more on Muir pass a few miles > north. Sonora pass was tough. Well the climb itself was fine but it seemed > to go on forever on the top before finally heading down. In Northern CA the > climbs out of Sierra City and Belden get honorable mentions. Any others > come to mind for you? > > How about Southbounders? The hike up to Idylwild is something like 6,000 > feet and 20 miles with no water (and probably hot). Was that the toughest > for SB? > > These days the hardest climb I have is probably the stairs up to the donut > shop. > > -Scott > _______________________________________________ > Pct-L mailing list > Pct-L at backcountry.net > To unsubscribe, or change options visit: > http://mailman.backcountry.net/mailman/listinfo/pct-l > > List Archives: > http://mailman.backcountry.net/pipermail/pct-l/ > All content is copyrighted by the respective authors. > Reproduction is prohibited without express permission. From bwatt at 1fifoto.com Sat Nov 26 16:34:07 2016 From: bwatt at 1fifoto.com (Brian Watt) Date: Sat, 26 Nov 2016 16:34:07 -0600 Subject: [pct-l] Hardest Climb In-Reply-To: <07861067-80BB-4993-9B9C-AB2A9706A77F@icloud.com> References: <07861067-80BB-4993-9B9C-AB2A9706A77F@icloud.com> Message-ID: Although I agree that Mather was treacherous especially with snow, I found the long climb out of Belden to be tough. I started at 6 AM and finished climbing at 1 PM. If I remember correctly it was about 5000 ft and 11 miles. A long long way. Tartan PCT 2014 From lucecruz13 at gmail.com Sat Nov 26 16:55:07 2016 From: lucecruz13 at gmail.com (Luce Cruz) Date: Sat, 26 Nov 2016 15:55:07 -0700 Subject: [pct-l] Hardest Climb In-Reply-To: <07861067-80BB-4993-9B9C-AB2A9706A77F@icloud.com> References: <07861067-80BB-4993-9B9C-AB2A9706A77F@icloud.com> Message-ID: The Hardest Climb. The first one of the day. After that, the rest come a little easier, as I know I can do it once the first one is gone. Always wanting to see what's on the other side of that hill keeps me moving. -- Luce Cruz From scott.diamond.mail at gmail.com Sat Nov 26 17:34:33 2016 From: scott.diamond.mail at gmail.com (Scott Diamond) Date: Sat, 26 Nov 2016 15:34:33 -0800 Subject: [pct-l] Hardest Climb In-Reply-To: <201611262305.uAQN5TH2013413@server-f.oakapple.net> References: <201611262305.uAQN5TH2013413@server-f.oakapple.net> Message-ID: Yeah I remember the climb up Fire Creek pass. That was hard (in hail and wind for me). For that matter all of the Northern Cascades were a challenge. It is a funny mix of love/hate with these climbs. It wouldn't be so rewarding and beautiful if it was easy (I always joked with friends that it is not the Pacific Valley Trail). But at the time you are on the climbs it is hard to have the perspective that you are doing it for fun. Now a few months later as I sit back in my armchair ... it doesn't seem so bad. Memory is funny. -Scott On Sat, Nov 26, 2016 at 3:05 PM, David Hough reading PCT-L < pctl at oakapple.net> wrote: > I think the climb from Hauser Creek to Lake Morena must be the worst in > terms of number of would be through hikers that change their minds. > I know the climb up Laguna Mtn takes a toll of illegal hikers each year > that get caught in weather. > > The long haul up Mission Creek is pretty bad because the weather is usually > very hot. Likewise the haul up from Tehachapi Pass because it's so long > to water. > > Speaking of Belden, it's much worse climbing out southbound than north. > Seiad Valley north isn't much fun either. > > Further north, the climbs up and down around Glacier Peak, especially going > down to Milk Creek and then up to Fire Creek Pass, stuck in my mind, > maybe I was tired that day. > > But I think the worst was the succession of passes one a day from Forester > to Muir. Each one was bad, but they certainly cumulated. > From billyvoid56 at yahoo.com Sat Nov 26 14:38:49 2016 From: billyvoid56 at yahoo.com (sandy) Date: Sat, 26 Nov 2016 12:38:49 -0800 Subject: [pct-l] (no subject) Message-ID: <9c09kyjb0mj81cjj35xo25a2.1480192729507@email.android.com> Hey Ken, Sanman here your message came through fine? Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE smartphone -------- Original message -------- From: Ken Martin Date: 11/25/2016 2:50 PM (GMT-08:00) To: Pct-l-request at backcountry.net, pct-l-bounces , pctl Subject: [pct-l] (no subject) Once again we seem to have bounced from the list. Can you please restore us? Thanks. _______________________________________________ Pct-L mailing list Pct-L at backcountry.net To unsubscribe, or change options visit: http://mailman.backcountry.net/mailman/listinfo/pct-l List Archives: http://mailman.backcountry.net/pipermail/pct-l/ All content is copyrighted by the respective authors. Reproduction is prohibited without express permission. From gary_schenk at yahoo.com Sun Nov 27 10:28:37 2016 From: gary_schenk at yahoo.com (Gary Schenk) Date: Sun, 27 Nov 2016 16:28:37 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [pct-l] Hardest Climb In-Reply-To: References: <201611262305.uAQN5TH2013413@server-f.oakapple.net> Message-ID: <412681803.1000321.1480264117733@mail.yahoo.com> Hardest climb? Connecting with the PCT over Taboose Pass. Second place would be getting to the PCT over Shepherd Pass. A couple of years ago we ran into a couple hiking out Shepherd to resupply!? Oopsie! :-) Gary From jjolson58 at gmail.com Sun Nov 27 11:19:05 2016 From: jjolson58 at gmail.com (Jeffrey Olson) Date: Sun, 27 Nov 2016 10:19:05 -0700 Subject: [pct-l] Hardest Climb In-Reply-To: <412681803.1000321.1480264117733@mail.yahoo.com> References: <201611262305.uAQN5TH2013413@server-f.oakapple.net> <412681803.1000321.1480264117733@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: In 1971 I hiked part of the JMT and went out over Taboose Pass. It's close to a 6000' drop down scree, and then across desert to the highway - 100 degrees in late June. 20 miles, and six hours or so. There's a creek where the dirt road hits the highway. I took my Vasque Whitneys (5lbs of boots) off - my feet were almost twice their normal size, put them in cold creek water, and passed out for 45 minutes. I couldn't imagine going up in those conditions! Jeff, Laramie, WY On 11/27/2016 9:28 AM, Gary Schenk wrote: > Hardest climb? Connecting with the PCT over Taboose Pass. Second place would be getting to the PCT over Shepherd Pass. A couple of years ago we ran into a couple hiking out Shepherd to resupply! Oopsie! :-) > > Gary > > --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From pctl at oakapple.net Sun Nov 27 20:55:22 2016 From: pctl at oakapple.net (David Hough reading PCT-L) Date: Sun, 27 Nov 2016 18:55:22 -0800 (PST) Subject: [pct-l] new resources for section and day hikers Message-ID: <201611280255.uAS2tLmm021361@server-f.oakapple.net> For through hikers the big issue is the resupply. For section hikers, it's the car shuttle. Today I started reorganizing my website pcnst.oakapple.net to incorporate my next project, supplemental information for the Semb books to update them, and to add suggested backpacking trips to fill in the gaps that can't be dayhiked. For those of you that weren't prescient enough to buy the Semb books when they were in print 15 years ago, you should know that they provide detailed driving instructions for all the back roads that you need to know about to dayhike ALL the dayhikable PCT, and almost all the information is still good. That's what I'm looking for in newer books. Step one for my website was cleaning out dead links including the PCTA store, which has a new URL, and checking that out I found that there are some new books published by the Mountaineers that might render my whole project unnecessary. Maybe everybody else knows about these, but they were news to me: https://shop.pcta.org/publications/books/hiking-the-pacific-crest-trail-washington-section-hiking-from-the-columbia-river-to-manning-park https://shop.pcta.org/publications/books/hiking-the-pacific-crest-trail-oregon-section-hiking-from-donomore-pass-to-bridge-of-the-gods The URL's are self-explanatory. I will see if they would have sufficed when I needed them, in lieu of the Semb books. But they seem to be out of stock at the PCTA store. The Mountaineers own web site implies that the series will eventually cover California too. The Washington volume was published in September and the Oregon volume is currently out of stock there too. The PCTA store also has, from March 2014, https://shop.pcta.org/publications/books/day-hikes-and-overnights-on-the-pacific-crest-trail-southern-california-from-the-mexican-border-to-los-angeles-county-marlise-kast-myers I can't tell if it covers all of Southern California up to LA county or just parts. By the way, the "Day & Section Hikes" series published by Wilderness Press several years ago is NOT a substitute for the Semb books - they don't cover the whole dayhikable trail, just highlights. From jjolson58 at gmail.com Sun Nov 27 21:21:50 2016 From: jjolson58 at gmail.com (Jeffrey Olson) Date: Sun, 27 Nov 2016 20:21:50 -0700 Subject: [pct-l] new resources for section and day hikers In-Reply-To: <201611280255.uAS2tLmm021361@server-f.oakapple.net> References: <201611280255.uAS2tLmm021361@server-f.oakapple.net> Message-ID: Just curious - what is a title, or the author's first name for the "Semb books?" Thanks... Jeff, Laramie, WY On 11/27/2016 7:55 PM, David Hough reading PCT-L wrote: > For through hikers the big issue is the resupply. For section hikers, > it's the car shuttle. > > Today I started reorganizing my website pcnst.oakapple.net to incorporate > my next project, supplemental information for the Semb books > to update them, and to add suggested > backpacking trips to fill in the gaps that can't be dayhiked. > > For those of you that weren't prescient enough to buy the Semb books when > they were in print 15 years ago, you should know that they provide detailed > driving instructions for all the back roads that you need to know about > to dayhike ALL the dayhikable PCT, and almost all the information is still > good. That's what I'm looking for in newer books. > > Step one for my website > was cleaning out dead links including the PCTA store, which has a new > URL, and checking that out I found that there are some new books published > by the Mountaineers that might render my whole project unnecessary. > Maybe everybody else knows about these, but they were news to me: > > https://shop.pcta.org/publications/books/hiking-the-pacific-crest-trail-washington-section-hiking-from-the-columbia-river-to-manning-park > > https://shop.pcta.org/publications/books/hiking-the-pacific-crest-trail-oregon-section-hiking-from-donomore-pass-to-bridge-of-the-gods > > The URL's are self-explanatory. I will > see if they would have sufficed when I needed them, > in lieu of the Semb books. But they seem to be out of stock at the > PCTA store. > > The Mountaineers own web site implies that the series will eventually cover > California too. The Washington volume was published in September > and the Oregon volume is currently out of stock there too. > > The PCTA store also has, from March 2014, > > https://shop.pcta.org/publications/books/day-hikes-and-overnights-on-the-pacific-crest-trail-southern-california-from-the-mexican-border-to-los-angeles-county-marlise-kast-myers > > I can't tell if it covers all of Southern California up to LA county > or just parts. > > By the way, the "Day & Section Hikes" series published by Wilderness Press > several years ago is NOT a substitute for the Semb books - they don't cover > the whole dayhikable trail, just highlights. > > _______________________________________________ > Pct-L mailing list > Pct-L at backcountry.net > To unsubscribe, or change options visit: > http://mailman.backcountry.net/mailman/listinfo/pct-l > > List Archives: > http://mailman.backcountry.net/pipermail/pct-l/ > All content is copyrighted by the respective authors. > Reproduction is prohibited without express permission. --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From geraldbking at gmail.com Sun Nov 27 21:46:11 2016 From: geraldbking at gmail.com (Jerry's gmail) Date: Sun, 27 Nov 2016 19:46:11 -0800 Subject: [pct-l] new resources for section and day hikers In-Reply-To: References: <201611280255.uAS2tLmm021361@server-f.oakapple.net> Message-ID: <333BCA51-2055-4AD8-83A3-4F18E73490AE@gmail.com> https://www.abebooks.com/servlet/BookDetailsPL?bi=19300060562&searchurl=kn%3DSemb%26sts%3Dt%26sortby%3D17 George Semb , see www.ABE.com > On Nov 27, 2016, at 7:21 PM, Jeffrey Olson wrote: > > Just curious - what is a title, or the author's first name for the "Semb books?" > > Thanks... > > Jeff, Laramie, WY > > >> On 11/27/2016 7:55 PM, David Hough reading PCT-L wrote: >> For through hikers the big issue is the resupply. For section hikers, >> it's the car shuttle. >> >> Today I started reorganizing my website pcnst.oakapple.net to incorporate >> my next project, supplemental information for the Semb books >> to update them, and to add suggested >> backpacking trips to fill in the gaps that can't be dayhiked. >> >> For those of you that weren't prescient enough to buy the Semb books when >> they were in print 15 years ago, you should know that they provide detailed >> driving instructions for all the back roads that you need to know about >> to dayhike ALL the dayhikable PCT, and almost all the information is still >> good. That's what I'm looking for in newer books. >> >> Step one for my website >> was cleaning out dead links including the PCTA store, which has a new >> URL, and checking that out I found that there are some new books published >> by the Mountaineers that might render my whole project unnecessary. >> Maybe everybody else knows about these, but they were news to me: >> >> https://shop.pcta.org/publications/books/hiking-the-pacific-crest-trail-washington-section-hiking-from-the-columbia-river-to-manning-park >> >> https://shop.pcta.org/publications/books/hiking-the-pacific-crest-trail-oregon-section-hiking-from-donomore-pass-to-bridge-of-the-gods >> >> The URL's are self-explanatory. I will >> see if they would have sufficed when I needed them, >> in lieu of the Semb books. But they seem to be out of stock at the >> PCTA store. >> >> The Mountaineers own web site implies that the series will eventually cover >> California too. The Washington volume was published in September >> and the Oregon volume is currently out of stock there too. >> >> The PCTA store also has, from March 2014, >> >> https://shop.pcta.org/publications/books/day-hikes-and-overnights-on-the-pacific-crest-trail-southern-california-from-the-mexican-border-to-los-angeles-county-marlise-kast-myers >> >> I can't tell if it covers all of Southern California up to LA county >> or just parts. >> >> By the way, the "Day & Section Hikes" series published by Wilderness Press >> several years ago is NOT a substitute for the Semb books - they don't cover >> the whole dayhikable trail, just highlights. >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Pct-L mailing list >> Pct-L at backcountry.net >> To unsubscribe, or change options visit: >> http://mailman.backcountry.net/mailman/listinfo/pct-l >> >> List Archives: >> http://mailman.backcountry.net/pipermail/pct-l/ >> All content is copyrighted by the respective authors. >> Reproduction is prohibited without express permission. > > > --- > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > https://www.avast.com/antivirus > > _______________________________________________ > Pct-L mailing list > Pct-L at backcountry.net > To unsubscribe, or change options visit: > http://mailman.backcountry.net/mailman/listinfo/pct-l > > List Archives: > http://mailman.backcountry.net/pipermail/pct-l/ > All content is copyrighted by the respective authors. > Reproduction is prohibited without express permission. From pctl at oakapple.net Sun Nov 27 21:49:14 2016 From: pctl at oakapple.net (David Hough reading PCT-L) Date: Sun, 27 Nov 2016 19:49:14 -0800 (PST) Subject: [pct-l] new resources for section and day hikers Message-ID: <201611280349.uAS3nEm1027779@server-f.oakapple.net> > what is a title, or the author's first name for the "Semb books?" Dayhikes on the Pacific Crest Trail - California Dayhikes on the Pacific Crest Trail - Oregon & Washington By George & Patricia Semb Published by Wilderness Press in 2000. Looks like they are on Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/Day-Hikes-Pacific-Crest-Trail/dp/089997256X https://www.amazon.com/Day-Hikes-Pacific-Crest-Trail/dp/0899972764 From kenglish at gmail.com Sun Nov 27 21:55:01 2016 From: kenglish at gmail.com (Kevin English) Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2016 11:55:01 +0800 Subject: [pct-l] Section hiking PCT - Crater Lake to Yosemite Message-ID: Hello, I?m starting to make plans for the hiking a part of the PCT next summer. We (wife and I) want to start around Oregon Crater Lake heading south and finish somewhere near Yosemite, not sure if before or after Yosemite. My questions for the list are the following: - What is good time start? We were thinking June, July or August with more of preference for late-July/ early- August? - Is 2 months enough to complete this section? - Is there anything particularly challenging about this section as opposed to other sections? Thanks in advance for any advice, Kevin From baidarker at gmail.com Mon Nov 28 15:40:19 2016 From: baidarker at gmail.com (Scott Williams) Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2016 13:40:19 -0800 Subject: [pct-l] Section hiking PCT - Crater Lake to Yosemite In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: You may still have some snow in early June, but that all depends on the year. In 2010 and 2011, the snows were still deep in the Cascades and Sierra throughout June. But during the 4 years of drought that followed, early June was just fine Some were hiking without trouble in May. But in general, June, July and August are great times to do this section, certainly July and August for sure. And you should be able to get further than Yosemite in 2 months if you get your trail legs and go light. So, keep your eye on the weather and have a ball! You may even end in the High Sierra. That would be really spectacular. Crater Lake to the High Sierra is a great section. Shroomer On Sun, Nov 27, 2016 at 7:55 PM, Kevin English wrote: > Hello, > I?m starting to make plans for the hiking a part of the PCT next summer. > We (wife and I) want to start around Oregon Crater Lake heading south and > finish somewhere near Yosemite, not sure if before or after Yosemite. > My questions for the list are the following: > > - What is good time start? We were thinking June, July or August with > more of preference for late-July/ early- August? > - Is 2 months enough to complete this section? > - Is there anything particularly challenging about this section as > opposed to other sections? > > Thanks in advance for any advice, > > Kevin > _______________________________________________ > Pct-L mailing list > Pct-L at backcountry.net > To unsubscribe, or change options visit: > http://mailman.backcountry.net/mailman/listinfo/pct-l > > List Archives: > http://mailman.backcountry.net/pipermail/pct-l/ > All content is copyrighted by the respective authors. > Reproduction is prohibited without express permission. From kenglish at gmail.com Mon Nov 28 19:22:23 2016 From: kenglish at gmail.com (Kevin English) Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2016 09:22:23 +0800 Subject: [pct-l] Section hiking PCT - Crater Lake to Yosemite In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: ?Thanks Scott! By High Sierras do you think we could get all the way to Kennedy Meadows in that time frame? Because I would thinking we would exit in the north parth, somewhere around Bridgeport (I only mention that because I'm familiar with that area) Kevin On Tue, Nov 29, 2016 at 5:40 AM, Scott Williams wrote: > You may still have some snow in early June, but that all depends on the > year. In 2010 and 2011, the snows were still deep in the Cascades and > Sierra throughout June. But during the 4 years of drought that followed, > early June was just fine Some were hiking without trouble in May. But in > general, June, July and August are great times to do this section, > certainly July and August for sure. And you should be able to get further > than Yosemite in 2 months if you get your trail legs and go light. So, > keep your eye on the weather and have a ball! You may even end in the High > Sierra. That would be really spectacular. Crater Lake to the High Sierra > is a great section. > > Shroomer > > On Sun, Nov 27, 2016 at 7:55 PM, Kevin English wrote: > >> Hello, >> I?m starting to make plans for the hiking a part of the PCT next summer. >> We (wife and I) want to start around Oregon Crater Lake heading south and >> finish somewhere near Yosemite, not sure if before or after Yosemite. >> My questions for the list are the following: >> >> - What is good time start? We were thinking June, July or August with >> more of preference for late-July/ early- August? >> - Is 2 months enough to complete this section? >> - Is there anything particularly challenging about this section as >> opposed to other sections? >> >> Thanks in advance for any advice, >> >> Kevin >> _______________________________________________ >> Pct-L mailing list >> Pct-L at backcountry.net >> To unsubscribe, or change options visit: >> http://mailman.backcountry.net/mailman/listinfo/pct-l >> >> List Archives: >> http://mailman.backcountry.net/pipermail/pct-l/ >> All content is copyrighted by the respective authors. >> Reproduction is prohibited without express permission. > > > From jjolson58 at gmail.com Mon Nov 28 20:00:25 2016 From: jjolson58 at gmail.com (Jeffrey Olson) Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2016 19:00:25 -0700 Subject: [pct-l] Section hiking PCT - Crater Lake to Yosemite In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: As a section hiker I am concerned with "miles" but not to the extent that thrus are. I don't know what kind of shape you're in, but 2 months on the trail will likely let you average 16 to 18 or so miles a day, 12 at the beginning and 20 at the end. Even in the heart of the Sierra, if you're in shape, you'll likely be able to climb and drop a pass a day, or more - 4000' plus. The other part that section hikers luxuriate in is zeros. Y ou don't have to be somewhere at some ephemeral date where snow is likely to end you're hike. I hiked south from Manning in 2005, a high sierra snow year, and low snow year up north, and pretty much spent two nights a week in motels, with the day in between spent lying down and healing. Stehekin Ranch was my favorite. The point is that you can take your time and if you want, enjoy trail towns, their motels and restaurants. Crater Lake to Tuolomne Meadows is about 890 miles. Say you take one zero (two nights in the same spot) a week, over 60 days you'll be hiking 52 days. 52 into 890 is 17 miles a day or so. That's doable - which for means for me, I feel like I'm centered in the trip, rather than heading for some eventual goal - the border. And if you begin in good shape, or are under 35, you'll likely start at more than 12 miles a day. And you can leave the trail before or after Tuolomne. It's an abstract, arbitrary goal. If you hike any of this trip in August or September, you'll have to prepare for HEAT. It's really not til you hit the Tahoe area that you'll be in the "high country" and be relieved from the 70 to 90 degree days. California north of there can be an exercise in heat and sun management. Water isn't an issue. Carry an umbrella - there isn't much wind - and you'll be more comfortable. That's not to say you won't spend time hunkered down in your tent for 24 to 36 hours in the rain. Expect at least one experience of a summer storm - not a thunderstorm, but a real front that takes its time moving through. The thunderstorms tend to happen more in the Sierra south of Yosemite than north of there. You can get the longer fronts from Lassen to Tahoe. The major challenges will be heat and sun, with a sidebar of a surprising front that moves through. The hikes out of the Klamath River, Sierra City and Belden are long and hot. The rest is more momentary.... IMHO.. Jeff, Laramie, Wy On 11/28/2016 6:22 PM, Kevin English wrote: > ?Thanks Scott! By High Sierras do you think we could get all the way to > Kennedy Meadows in that time frame? Because I would thinking we would exit > in the north parth, somewhere around Bridgeport (I only mention that > because I'm familiar with that area) > > Kevin > > On Tue, Nov 29, 2016 at 5:40 AM, Scott Williams wrote: > >> You may still have some snow in early June, but that all depends on the >> year. In 2010 and 2011, the snows were still deep in the Cascades and >> Sierra throughout June. But during the 4 years of drought that followed, >> early June was just fine Some were hiking without trouble in May. But in >> general, June, July and August are great times to do this section, >> certainly July and August for sure. And you should be able to get further >> than Yosemite in 2 months if you get your trail legs and go light. So, >> keep your eye on the weather and have a ball! You may even end in the High >> Sierra. That would be really spectacular. Crater Lake to the High Sierra >> is a great section. >> >> Shroomer >> >> On Sun, Nov 27, 2016 at 7:55 PM, Kevin English wrote: >> >>> Hello, >>> I?m starting to make plans for the hiking a part of the PCT next summer. >>> We (wife and I) want to start around Oregon Crater Lake heading south and >>> finish somewhere near Yosemite, not sure if before or after Yosemite. >>> My questions for the list are the following: >>> >>> - What is good time start? We were thinking June, July or August with >>> more of preference for late-July/ early- August? >>> - Is 2 months enough to complete this section? >>> - Is there anything particularly challenging about this section as >>> opposed to other sections? >>> >>> Thanks in advance for any advice, >>> >>> Kevin >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Pct-L mailing list >>> Pct-L at backcountry.net >>> To unsubscribe, or change options visit: >>> http://mailman.backcountry.net/mailman/listinfo/pct-l >>> >>> List Archives: >>> http://mailman.backcountry.net/pipermail/pct-l/ >>> All content is copyrighted by the respective authors. >>> Reproduction is prohibited without express permission. >> >> > _______________________________________________ > Pct-L mailing list > Pct-L at backcountry.net > To unsubscribe, or change options visit: > http://mailman.backcountry.net/mailman/listinfo/pct-l > > List Archives: > http://mailman.backcountry.net/pipermail/pct-l/ > All content is copyrighted by the respective authors. > Reproduction is prohibited without express permission. --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From baidarker at gmail.com Mon Nov 28 21:07:13 2016 From: baidarker at gmail.com (Scott Williams) Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2016 19:07:13 -0800 Subject: [pct-l] Section hiking PCT - Crater Lake to Yosemite In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Great points Jeff. Not having a goal in mind is wonderful. Even though I set out with the goal of Canada, or wherever, I try to focus my attention only on each day's hike. Heck, at the beginning it's just too far to even think of making it all that way! Totally overwhelming and I don't even look at the big picture maps as it's too scary. But, if you love being out there, each day, Canada is simply inevitable if you have enough days to walk that far. But for a section hiker, to be free of a goal is great. That being said, if you are fast and strong, ending at Whitney is not at all out of the question. And for some of us, part of the joy of a thru hike is the speed. Crazy, but we love knocking out miles as much as any other part of the thru hike experience. So there's a goal. Now, just forget it and hike however far is fun and sustainable! And just to let you know, knocking out that kind of distance, Crater Lake to the Sierra, will give you all the joy a thru hiker experiences. That's a long way! Have a great hike, Shroomer On Mon, Nov 28, 2016 at 6:00 PM, Jeffrey Olson wrote: > As a section hiker I am concerned with "miles" but not to the extent that > thrus are. I don't know what kind of shape you're in, but 2 months on the > trail will likely let you average 16 to 18 or so miles a day, 12 at the > beginning and 20 at the end. Even in the heart of the Sierra, if you're in > shape, you'll likely be able to climb and drop a pass a day, or more - > 4000' plus. > > The other part that section hikers luxuriate in is zeros. Y ou don't have > to be somewhere at some ephemeral date where snow is likely to end you're > hike. I hiked south from Manning in 2005, a high sierra snow year, and low > snow year up north, and pretty much spent two nights a week in motels, with > the day in between spent lying down and healing. Stehekin Ranch was my > favorite. The point is that you can take your time and if you want, enjoy > trail towns, their motels and restaurants. > > Crater Lake to Tuolomne Meadows is about 890 miles. Say you take one zero > (two nights in the same spot) a week, over 60 days you'll be hiking 52 > days. 52 into 890 is 17 miles a day or so. That's doable - which for > means for me, I feel like I'm centered in the trip, rather than heading for > some eventual goal - the border. And if you begin in good shape, or are > under 35, you'll likely start at more than 12 miles a day. And you can > leave the trail before or after Tuolomne. It's an abstract, arbitrary goal. > > If you hike any of this trip in August or September, you'll have to > prepare for HEAT. It's really not til you hit the Tahoe area that you'll > be in the "high country" and be relieved from the 70 to 90 degree days. > California north of there can be an exercise in heat and sun management. > Water isn't an issue. Carry an umbrella - there isn't much wind - and > you'll be more comfortable. That's not to say you won't spend time > hunkered down in your tent for 24 to 36 hours in the rain. Expect at least > one experience of a summer storm - not a thunderstorm, but a real front > that takes its time moving through. The thunderstorms tend to happen more > in the Sierra south of Yosemite than north of there. You can get the > longer fronts from Lassen to Tahoe. > > The major challenges will be heat and sun, with a sidebar of a surprising > front that moves through. The hikes out of the Klamath River, Sierra City > and Belden are long and hot. The rest is more momentary.... > > IMHO.. > > Jeff, Laramie, Wy > > > > On 11/28/2016 6:22 PM, Kevin English wrote: > >> ?Thanks Scott! By High Sierras do you think we could get all the way to >> Kennedy Meadows in that time frame? Because I would thinking we would exit >> in the north parth, somewhere around Bridgeport (I only mention that >> because I'm familiar with that area) >> >> Kevin >> >> On Tue, Nov 29, 2016 at 5:40 AM, Scott Williams >> wrote: >> >> You may still have some snow in early June, but that all depends on the >>> year. In 2010 and 2011, the snows were still deep in the Cascades and >>> Sierra throughout June. But during the 4 years of drought that >>> followed, >>> early June was just fine Some were hiking without trouble in May. But >>> in >>> general, June, July and August are great times to do this section, >>> certainly July and August for sure. And you should be able to get >>> further >>> than Yosemite in 2 months if you get your trail legs and go light. So, >>> keep your eye on the weather and have a ball! You may even end in the >>> High >>> Sierra. That would be really spectacular. Crater Lake to the High >>> Sierra >>> is a great section. >>> >>> Shroomer >>> >>> On Sun, Nov 27, 2016 at 7:55 PM, Kevin English >>> wrote: >>> >>> Hello, >>>> I?m starting to make plans for the hiking a part of the PCT next >>>> summer. >>>> We (wife and I) want to start around Oregon Crater Lake heading south >>>> and >>>> finish somewhere near Yosemite, not sure if before or after Yosemite. >>>> My questions for the list are the following: >>>> >>>> - What is good time start? We were thinking June, July or August >>>> with >>>> more of preference for late-July/ early- August? >>>> - Is 2 months enough to complete this section? >>>> - Is there anything particularly challenging about this section as >>>> opposed to other sections? >>>> >>>> Thanks in advance for any advice, >>>> >>>> Kevin >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Pct-L mailing list >>>> Pct-L at backcountry.net >>>> To unsubscribe, or change options visit: >>>> http://mailman.backcountry.net/mailman/listinfo/pct-l >>>> >>>> List Archives: >>>> http://mailman.backcountry.net/pipermail/pct-l/ >>>> All content is copyrighted by the respective authors. >>>> Reproduction is prohibited without express permission. >>>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> Pct-L mailing list >> Pct-L at backcountry.net >> To unsubscribe, or change options visit: >> http://mailman.backcountry.net/mailman/listinfo/pct-l >> >> List Archives: >> http://mailman.backcountry.net/pipermail/pct-l/ >> All content is copyrighted by the respective authors. >> Reproduction is prohibited without express permission. >> > > > --- > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > https://www.avast.com/antivirus > > > _______________________________________________ > Pct-L mailing list > Pct-L at backcountry.net > To unsubscribe, or change options visit: > http://mailman.backcountry.net/mailman/listinfo/pct-l > > List Archives: > http://mailman.backcountry.net/pipermail/pct-l/ > All content is copyrighted by the respective authors. > Reproduction is prohibited without express permission. >