[pct-l] Ethical goose down?

[River Malcolm]

Dear Diet Plan and others,

I was moved by this discussion about humane harvesting of goose down. It is difficult to walk a morally pure and perfect trail through the wilderness of civilized human life (maybe a few have: Jesus, Buddha, etc. and millions try with varying success to find and follow their footsteps). But I am always inspired when I meet people willing to make the effort. 

I have little to add to this discussion other than gratitude ( I had failed to even raise the question in my awareness and was deeply grateful to see that zpacks, a fine small cottage industry in so many ways,has done its best to find cruelty-free down. ) 

But I do want to add that roast goose is something I have often heard of in Europe and even in America as a turkey equivalent for holiday meals. Here is a wiki article if you are interested. 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roast_goose

I also want to tell the story of my grandfather. In midlife while wrestling with TB (and losing a daughter to the disease) he underwent a conversion experience -- away from his literal Christianity to his own brand of Unitarian Universalism, to ethical vegetarianism and to belief that organized labor should be an equal partner with management in the business world (a rare view for an owner-manager). He was however in the shoe business, and rationalized his use of leather as an otherwise wasted by-product of the meat industry. As a young girl I accused him of hypocrisy. As a woman growing older (68), I marvel at his willingness to take risks and attempt a moral trail however imperfect. 

Thanks for giving me a chance to write about him. His name was Henry Nunn. He wrote two books. The whole Man Goes to Work and Partners in Production. He would be very proud of me for section-hiking most of the PCT since my 2013 retirement. He would be disappointed that I gave up vegetarianism in my mid-thirties (because I believed it added to my tendency to isolate and estrange myself from other humans and so involved a conflict between moral goods), but he'd still love and support me however imperfect. 

Thanks for listening
River 
> 
> ----------
> 
> Message: 5
> Date: Tue, 17 May 2016 19:12:41 -0700
> From: Melanie Clarke <melaniekclarke at gmail.com>
> To: Jay Bruins <jbruins at gmail.com>
> Cc: PCT-L <Pct-L at backcountry.net>
> Subject: Re: [pct-l] Sleeping Bag recommendations
> Message-ID:
>    <CAKeeMLfz6chBPQ240+MVnwkBXRwzt276yfdKy1h57289jj5bmQ at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
> 
> First of all, I want to applaud you for a strong desire to purchase
> ethically produced animal products.  However, please be aware that there is
> a tremendous amount of deceptive "legalese" with, well, many consumer
> products including animal products.  This "Meat Processing Facility", most
> likely includes food for dogs, cats and other pets as well as humans.
> After harvesting down from alive screaming geese for the life of a goose,
> it is then, most likely, sold for dog food.  Therefore, you are still
> supporting this cruel industry. Please don't allow yourself to be deceived!
> 
> Has anyone met anyone who has even eaten a goose?  Eating a goose in
> America is a rare event.  There are no restaurants that I know of that sell
> them.  They are not in any grocery store.  I had some European Foreign
> Exchange Students when my children were in High School. They told me that
> Europeans do not eat as much beef as Americans and they eat more "lamb".
> I've never known Europeans to eat geese. Two of my daughters have been in
> Europe, Iceland etc.  They never talked about the geese served in Europe.
> People in China eat a lot of duck, pork, chicken but I've never heard of a
> large goose consumption.
> 
> Meanwhile, the world is generating millions of tons of down for billions of
> down products.  With all the down products, everyone in the world would
> have had to consume 10-20 geese to harvest that much down.
> 
> Many labels with "Humane meat", "Cage Free Eggs" even "Organic" have been
> exposed as fraud or "deceptive legalese".  I'm sure this place in Europe is
> completely certified from dead animals.  However, this is after a lifetime
> of cruelty!  The number of yearlings sold for human consumption, who have
> never had their down plucked live; is a small, small small percentage of
> their "meat industry"!  If this company only sold down from "virgin" geese;
> you would not have enough product to fill your orders.  The price would be
> astronomical!
> 
> PLEASE DO NOT BUY DOWN!!!!  You would not pull the hair out of your dog or
> cat every 6 months.  Please do not subject other animals to this cruelty.
> Do not support this industry!
> 
> Diet Plan
> 
>> On Mon, May 16, 2016 at 9:48 AM, Jay Bruins <jbruins at gmail.com> wrote:
>> 
>> If you're vegan, down is probably out of the question. If you're not, many
>> manufactures use reasonable sources.
>> 
>> "Is your Goose Down ethically sourced?
>> Yes. Our white goose down comes directly from a meat processing facility
>> in Europe. It is a byproduct of the goose meat industry and would be thrown
>> away if it didn't have a use. No birds are force fed, live plucked, or any
>> of that nasty business."
>> http://zpacks.com/FAQs.shtml#sleepingbags
>> 
>> I would be glad to know what Enlightened Equipment says about their down.
>> 
>> Armstrong
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> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 6
> Date: Tue, 17 May 2016 21:25:37 -0500
> From: Sabrina Harrison <troopharrison at gmail.com>
> To: Jay Bruins <jbruins at gmail.com>
> Cc: PCT-L <Pct-L at backcountry.net>
> Subject: Re: [pct-l] Sleeping Bag recommendations
> Message-ID: <DCDD784D-D176-4B97-9B02-B7126AF9528F at gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain;    charset=us-ascii
> 
> Thanks again, Diet Plan! It takes a lot of courage to speak up and I appreciate all of the information. I had never heard any of that before. 
> 
> To answer a question posed earlier, this was the response from enlightened equipment:
> 
> Nick (Enlightened Equipment)
> May 17, 07:11 
> 
> Hey Sabrina,
> We source our down from Europe and all of it is RDS certified. Let me know if you have any other questions.
> 
> Nick 
> EE
> 
> 
>