[pct-l] Insects and methods

[TBrokaw at montmush.com]

One of my concerns that seems missing from the discussion is the toxicity 
to fish.  If DEET gets washed off during creek crossings, it would also be 
washed off during a swim in a lake.  Many Sierra lakes have no outlet & 
any contaminant would remain in the water pretty much forever.  A few 
hundred doses per season (possibly thousands) would not be insignificant. 
How does this wash with our Leave No Trace practice?  I've used DEET 
sparingly over the years.  If the fish toxicity issue is true (new to me), 
 I'm ready to try other options.  Thanks Marmott for the Eucalyptus 
suggestion.  And thank all of you for the great discussion. 
Barista

Tom Brokaw
Corporate Project Manager
Monterey Mushrooms
777 Maher Ct
Royal Oaks, CA 95076-9014
C: 831-535-2181
O: 831-274-5520



From:   Luce Cruz <lucecruz13 at gmail.com>
To:     <pct-l at backcountry.net>, 
Date:   02/28/2016 10:10 AM
Subject:        Re: [pct-l] Insects and methods
Sent by:        Pct-L <pct-l-bounces at backcountry.net>



On Sun, Feb 28, 2016 at 9:24 AM, marmot marmot 
<marmotwestvanc at hotmail.com>
wrote:

> Non of this stuff works as well as the neurotoxins. But that's the 
point.
> They are poison.
> Marmot
>

Toxicity is all about the dose. What will kill a mosquito might not even 
be
detectable in a healthy human, but the difference in body mass is 
painfully
obvious.

DEET has been marketed for civilian use for decades, and is the gold
standard for mosquito repellants based on performance worldwide. It would
appear that the concerns over the diseases that mosquitoes can spread far
outweigh the risks of using DEET. If that doesn't sway an opinion, than I
just don't know what will.

Picaridin is useful for many folks that cannot stand the feel of, or they
have a reaction to, DEET, but may not work as well. Been available for 
many
years, accepted as safe to use at this point, but known to not be as
effective a repellent as DEET.

Permethrin has been used in military uniforms for years as a mosquito
repellent. While the military has performed experiments and used chemicals
that have been shown later to be very harmful, this one seems to be a big
hit, and spreading in use. It is also used as a treatment for mosquito
netting, sleeping bags, tents, etc. It is also available for use on horses
and other livestock. It has been widely accepted as safe at this point,
except to animals that live in water and cats.

Permethrin is particularly toxic to cats, and must be kept away from cats
until *dry*. Properly used, it should not be a health risk to cats, but
personally I try to reduce that risk. I don't meet any friendly cuddly 
cats
on trail. If it gets into water that has fish and other living things in
it, it could be very toxic. Excess Permethrin should be disposed of in a
sanitary sewer, like pouring it in a toilet.

If you have questions about toxicity, maybe talk to your MD, a biochemist,
toxicologist, etc. Reading MSDS info can be easily misinterpreted if you
don't know what the information is telling you.

I really hate mosquitoes. I have no problem facilitating them meeting a
neurotoxin I brought with me solely for that reason. I know they are
important for many other creatures for food, but I wish they would leave 
me
out of that web.

-- 
Luce Cruz
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