[pct-l] New Mountain Education videos on YouTube!

[Jackie McDonnell]

Ned -

Again, you did not do anything to personally offend me.  I'm simply
pointing out your campaign of misinformation.  You posted to the list, and
I commented on your post.

Yogi
www.yogisbooks.com


On Wed, Jul 2, 2014 at 5:23 PM, Ned Tibbits <ned at mountaineducation.org>
wrote:

> Wow!
>
> Whenever we teach in a new area, I call the USFS representative that
> handles Special Use Permits, and ask them if I need anything like that.
> Their answer has always been, "If your are not requiring your students to
> pay for what you teach, then you do not need anything more than a
> wilderness permit for your group." Done.
>
> When I talked to one agency official once, the subject of Tuition vs.
> Instructor payment came up. When it was determined that neither was
> applicable, the subject was dropped. However, to further clarify the point,
> they said that a student can pay an educational institution tuition for an
> outdoor course of instruction, but if the instructor is not paid, no
> Special Use Permit applies.
>
> When it was talked about that we may receive donations after-the-fact and
> that we provide the instruction not knowing whether we will or not, the
> discussion ended.
>
> I may think that you charge too much for your Handbook, but that is no
> business of mine.
>
> What did I do to so offend you?
>
>
>
> Ned Tibbits, Director
> Mountain Education
> www.mountaineducation.org
>
> Mission:
> "To minimize wilderness accidents, injury, and illness through
> experiential education and risk awareness training."
> -----Original Message----- From: Jackie McDonnell
> Sent: Wednesday, July 02, 2014 2:27 PM
>
> To: pct-l
> Subject: Re: [pct-l] New Mountain Education videos on YouTube!
>
> Ned -
>
> Yes, I realize that you are not teaching rock climbing, but I suspect the
> permit laws discussed below still apply.
>
> The following passage is quoted from “Rock Climbing The AMGA Single Pitch
> Manual” by Bob Gaines and Jason Martin.  Copyright May 20, 2014.  Jason is
> on the AMGA Board of Directors.  I’m pretty sure he knows what he’s talking
> about!
>
> -----------------------------------
> “Operating on public lands without a permit is breaking the law and could
> result in a wide array of consequences.  These range from a minor citation
> to a significant fine or even an arrest.  In some cases it is possible to
> be permanently banned from public lands for willfully disregarding land-use
> regulations.
>
> There are two main questions that an individual or an organization should
> ask to determine whether or not a land-use permit is required:
>
> (1) DID THE PARTICIPANTS PAY TO ENGAGE IN THE ACTIVITY?  Did they pay any
> fee at all?  Were they asked to pay tuition for the course or guided days?
> Were they asked to submit a donation to the program?  Are they required to
> rent equipment from the operation in order to participate?  If the answer
> to any of these questions is yes, then the land manager should be contacted
> to determine if a commercial-use permit is required.
>
> (2) ARE THE INSTRUCTORS GETTING PAID TO RUN THE PROGRAM OR PROVIDE
> INSTRUCTION?  If the instructors receive any kind of compensation, then
> they or the organization will need to obtain a permit.  Compensation could
> mean an hourly or daily wage, a stipend, meals, or even “free” equipment.
> Nearly any type of compensation outside of a thank-you constitutes
> commercial use.”
> -------------------------------------------
> So, Ned, your site has a “Cost” section, in which you state: “Suggested
> contribution $300 per person.”  That seems like more than a thank-you to
> me.
>
> Yogi
> www.yogisbooks.com
>
>
> On Wed, Jul 2, 2014 at 3:57 PM, Jackie McDonnell <yogihikes at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>  Ned -
>>
>> REGARDING PAYMENT:
>>
>> Today you  stated over and over that you provide your services for free:
>>
>> "We do not require payment for the things we teach. If our students want
>> to pay anything, or donate to the cause, that is up to them and not
>> expected or required."       "This is a full-time venture that is not
>> income-producing, thus we are constantly struggling to survive to give
>> away
>> what we do.       "We haven't done this for money."       "We are not a
>> business that trades its service to customers for any tangible exchange.
>> We
>> are not a Guide Service that receives money for guiding people places."
>>   "We are just people who want to help other people for free and at our
>> expense."      "We don't require payment for what we freely give."
>>
>> Hmmmmmm.  You stated on June 30 in your original post:  "We are now a
>> public benefit, non-profit, educational institution/business and can only
>> continue to help and train hikers with your financial help."
>>
>> Which is it?  You provide your services for free?  Or do you require
>> financial help?  You can't have it both ways.  The mere mention of needing
>> financial help DIRECTLY IMPLIES that your students SHOULD pay!  You know
>> that, I know that, everyone reading your post knows that.
>>
>>
>> REGARDING GUIDING PEOPLE:
>>
>> Today you stated:  "We are as if, according to them, a friend or
>> acquaintance going with you out on the trail to show
>>
>> you a few trail skills that might make your hike easier and safer."
>>
>> Seriously?  You believe that?  YOU HAVE A FREAKIN' APPLICATION ON YOUR
>> WEBSITE!!!!  That is not "friends" or "acquaintances" going on the trail.
>>  The people filling out the application are looking to you for guidance.
>>  You are the teacher, they are the student.  Yet you are doing everything
>> possible to get around any permits/regulations.  Just admit it.
>>
>> REGARDING DANGER:
>>
>> Today you stated:  If conditions present exceed our training and the
>> safety of our group, we do not continue."
>>
>> That is a flat-out lie.  You recently almost killed someone up in
>> Washington.  One member of the group found the conditions too dangerous to
>> continue so THAT PERSON turned around.  Did any teachers accompany that
>> student on the return trip? I doubt it.  You continued with your students
>> (er......'scuse me.........I guess they are your "friends" or
>> "acquaintances").  You took those students on a slope which had conditions
>> so bad that one student slid down the mountain.  Fortunately, a tree
>> stopped his slide.  Unfortunately, he slammed into the tree so hard that
>> he
>> broke several ribs, had to be rescued by a helicopter, and now his chance
>> for a sobo thru-hike is gone.  Hmmmmmm.  You keep neglecting to tell the
>> list about that.
>>
>> Yogi
>> www.yogisbooks.com
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Jul 2, 2014 at 3:25 PM, Ned Tibbits <ned at mountaineducation.org>
>> wrote:
>>
>>  Hi, Matt,
>>>
>>> It is for the betterment of those in our growing hiking community and
>>> following this conversation that I respond to your prior emails.
>>>
>>> People do need to realize, when considering backpacking on a National
>>> Scenic
>>> Trail, where they may encounter levels of difficulty or hazards that may
>>> expose them to injury, that they may need to learn risk-assessment and
>>> become better skills-educated about the likely risks ahead, so they are
>>> at
>>> least generally prepared to evaluate dangers in the wilderness before
>>> deciding to place themselves in harms way. All aspiring wilderness hikers
>>> should have knowledge of the environmental risks and hazards into which
>>> they
>>> are placing themselves when backpacking and the necessary medical
>>> response
>>> skills in case an accident happens. Nevertheless, as we all know, even
>>> the
>>> professionals who are well trained (I am thinking of Ski Patrol and
>>> Search &
>>> Rescue members) and who are out there all the time get hurt. Wilderness
>>> is
>>> too beautiful a place for anything bad to happen. We all want to have
>>> safe
>>> and fun hikes, but accidents do occur, no matter how wise or careful we
>>> become with experience or training.
>>>
>>> We have found that talking to people about the risky conditions and
>>> hazards
>>> that exist in wilderness (because they don't know they are out there or
>>> don't want to believe it), showing them what they really look like
>>> (because
>>> they don't know or haven't seen them yet), teaching them how to recognize
>>> and safety-assess those risky conditions (because it is always better to
>>> avoid danger, first), and demonstrate any skills or abilities that might
>>> help them safely deal with those conditions helps them have happier and
>>> more
>>> confident trips of their own.
>>>
>>> More and more people are wanting to go hiking again. Most think a
>>> backpacking trip is a "walk in the park" and don't know for what they
>>> should
>>> prepare and, thus, find themselves surprised by any personally or
>>> environmentally challenging conditions they run into. We are interested
>>> in
>>> helping hikers know what to prepare for, according to the degree of
>>> difficulty prevalent where they are going, so they can choose trails
>>> within
>>> their experience and ability levels and minimize (because accidents
>>> happen)
>>> the chances of getting hurt and maximize their enjoyment of the
>>> wilderness.
>>> If they want to go onto conditions beyond our training and experience, we
>>> encourage them to attend training courses from requisite technically
>>> certificated sources.
>>>
>>> It seems that you have overlooked a couple of things, so let me help you
>>> understand:
>>>
>>> We are not a Business:
>>> We do not require payment for the things we teach. If our students want
>>> to
>>> pay anything, or donate to the cause, that is up to them and not expected
>>> or
>>> required.  (We are in the process of change, however, so this will be
>>> different in the future. We are incorporating as a 501(c)(3), have a new
>>> Board of Directors, and will be charging for next year's courses like any
>>> public-benefit educational institution).
>>>
>>> What we do, whether driving to and presenting at public events or driving
>>> to
>>> and teaching our courses or making ourselves available all day every day
>>> to
>>> answer questions and post pictures/videos online or over the phone, is
>>> accomplished almost entirely at our own expense, the finances for which
>>> we
>>> have none, since this is a full-time venture that is not
>>> income-producing,
>>> thus we are constantly struggling to survive to give away what we do.
>>> This
>>> is our choice.
>>>
>>> Regarding Special Use Permits:
>>> Because we haven't done this for money, but out of a passion to share our
>>> experience (of over 40 years and two thru hikes) to help hikers stay safe
>>> out there, the Land Management Agencies (like the USFS and NPS), don't
>>> require us to apply for and obtain Special Use Permits to conduct an
>>> otherwise income-producing business on public land. We are as if,
>>> according
>>> to them, a friend or acquaintance going with you out on the trail to show
>>> you a few trail skills that might make your hike easier and safer.
>>>
>>> Regarding Insurance:
>>> For the same reason, we are not required to have insurance. (Obviously,
>>> because we desire to become a legitimate business, for next year this
>>> will
>>> change). We might want to carry personal insurance, but that is up to us.
>>> To
>>> protect ourselves a little, personally, and better inform our students of
>>> what they are getting into, we do ask that they sign a Risk Awareness
>>> Statement and Release of Liability Waiver. We make sure, also, that they
>>> have been thoroughly informed about and see, via pictures and video, the
>>> conditions into which they are choosing to go.
>>>
>>> Regarding not being a Guide Service:
>>> Again, we are not a business that trades its service to customers for any
>>> tangible exchange. We are not a Guide Service that receives money for
>>> guiding people places. So, what we provide does not fall under any
>>> business
>>> regulations or restrictions. In essence, we are just people who want to
>>> help
>>> other people for free and at our expense. We do accompany people into the
>>> backcountry to share of what we have learned over the years.
>>>
>>> Regarding the skills we teach:
>>> According to the American Mountain Guides Association (AMGA), we do not
>>> need
>>> to be AMGA trained or certified because we do not go onto slopes where
>>> its
>>> Grade or Class rating would suggest climbing-level certification to
>>> maintain
>>> personal safety. Therefore, we do not teach "mountaineering" or technical
>>> climbing skills. According to the AMGA, showing someone how to use an ice
>>> axe for self-arrest on non-technical slopes does not require
>>> certification
>>> from them. This skill is included in a Mountaineering Course where the
>>> context takes students, guests, or clients onto slopes steep and severe
>>> enough where this response skill may be necessary for personal and group
>>> safety. We are a wilderness backpacking school that teaches people about
>>> snow-camping and travel. According to the AMGA, there are no slopes on
>>> the
>>> Pacific Crest Trail that would require mountaineering techniques or
>>> adjuncts.
>>>
>>> Nevertheless, we hold and renew yearly certificates from the American
>>> Avalanche Association and the American Institute for Avalanche Research
>>> and
>>> Education (AIARE) to help us risk-assess the kind of snow slopes we do
>>> travel upon. We feel this level of education and training is necessary to
>>> keep our students safe over the degree of difficulty we encounter. We are
>>> Wilderness EMT, Search & Rescue, and National Ski Patrol trained and
>>> yearly
>>> current and retired Paramedic and USFS Wilderness Ranger experienced.
>>>
>>> In Sum:
>>>
>>> We are not a Guide Service because we are not a business.
>>> We do not need Special Use Permits because we don't require payment for
>>> what
>>> we freely give.
>>> We do not teach technical mountaineering skills or certification because
>>> we
>>> do not go anywhere requiring them.
>>> If conditions present exceed our training and the safety of our group, we
>>> do
>>> not continue.
>>> We (and our students) recognize that accidents are unpredictable and
>>> happen
>>> no matter your training, experience, or expertise.
>>> We encourage all aspiring hikers to know the risks into which they are
>>> headed before leaving from the trailhead.
>>> If you are headed for sufficiently steep Grades or Classes of slope that
>>> require mountaineering skills, go to a certificated trainer.
>>>
>>>
>>> Ned Tibbits, Director
>>> Mountain Education
>>> www.mountaineducation.org
>>>
>>> Mission:
>>> "To minimize wilderness accidents, injury, and illness through
>>> experiential
>>> education and risk awareness training."
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Matt Signore
>>> Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2014 2:14 PM
>>> To: pct-l
>>> Subject: Re: [pct-l] New Mountain Education videos on YouTube!
>>>
>>> Ok well since there are about 2600+ people on the list serve and exactly
>>> 2
>>> people have stepped up and offered contrary opinions, and one privately
>>> in
>>> support.  Who is of the minority opinion?  You Walt? Or me?
>>>
>>> He let someone fall and get really hurt under his guidance.  When you
>>> read
>>> the Mountain Education mission statement it is completely contrary to
>>> what
>>> is actually practiced by his guide service.
>>>
>>> Mission:
>>> “To minimize wilderness accidents, injury, and illness through
>>> experiential
>>> education and risk awareness training.”
>>>      - Mountain Education
>>>
>>> Maybe Ned needs to re read that before each trip, and actually employ the
>>> message
>>>
>>> As far as not being having the client tied in.
>>>
>>> If any credible accredited guide service has clients traversing snow, and
>>> the potential fall hazard is a treeline, crevasse, cliff, and or a
>>> boulder
>>> field the client will be on a rope.  One of two things is true about his
>>> clients fall.  Either Ned is too inexperienced to understand what a fall
>>> hazard is or he doesn't care.  Either way it is the guide's (sic)
>>> responsibility to get you home safely.  The problem is if you are taking
>>> his class you don't know just how unsafe Ned is being during his course.
>>>
>>> Just because you went to high school does not qualify you to teach high
>>> school.  You need a teaching degree to teach.   Even when it isn't a life
>>> or death, safe or hurt decision people still want certifications.
>>> Same with mountaineering you should be certified to teach mountaineering
>>> before you are teaching people.  The difference if you get an "F" on your
>>> Algebra test you don't die.  If you fail in mountaineering your emergency
>>> contact gets a phone call and you never celebrate another birthday.  What
>>> is more important education or continuing to breathe?  You wouldn't think
>>> of hiring a nanny without a background check to make sure your child is
>>> safe with that person.  It would behoove you to take the same due
>>> diligence
>>> when picking a guide that is keeping you alive.
>>>
>>> If he were worth hiring don't you think he would be working with one of
>>> the
>>> many guide services operating in the same locations?  Realistically there
>>> is not a single guide service willing to hire him.  They can't hire him
>>> because he lacks certification.  If a guide service isn't willing to hire
>>> him why should you?  The difference between you and a guide service is
>>> that
>>> they already know he isn't qualified to teach.
>>>
>>> Walt you are absolutely correct you do not need a rope to hike the PCT in
>>> season, but there are many other things taught by Mountain Education that
>>> will never come into play.  It has been done by a ton of people 10's of
>>> thousands in fact without a rope.  However, there have been conditions
>>> that
>>> people "sit out" or skip around.  Why didn't he take the class to a
>>> different safer location?
>>>
>>> Make sure to learn the following at Mountain Education also.
>>>
>>>    - Emergency Shelters
>>>
>>>    Snow Pit Analysis
>>>
>>>    Seriously who carries a shovel on the PCT?  That is one of the few
>>> ways
>>>    to dig the pit and the snow cave.
>>>
>>>
>>> In fact one class member had the guts to turn around based on novice
>>> ability and instinct alone.  That person is probably going to hike this
>>> year.  Was that client still with a guide when they turned around?
>>>  Because
>>> at Mountain Education they have standards or they would like you to
>>> believe
>>> if you read their website.  Here is the standard they set and adhere to
>>> or
>>> so they say.
>>>
>>>
>>>    - When traveling, everyone stays together and along a specifically
>>>    designated route with your Instructors in front and back of your
>>> group.
>>>
>>> The client Ned led into less than ideal conditions is not doing as well.
>>> The guide standard is to never split from your client ever.  In fact if
>>> one person needs to turn around and there are not any other guides on the
>>> trip the entire class has to turn around.  If I recall correctly the
>>> ratio
>>> can never go beyond 4:1  Once you sign on for a course with a guide they
>>> are responsible for your well being.  In fact you can't be left alone at
>>> camp without a guide if you are on their permit.
>>>
>>> As far as the over ego - pomposity comment.  That was actually displayed
>>> by
>>> Ned when he didn't choose to turn the class around.  It takes more guts
>>> to
>>> turn around than continue.  Sadly his client got the hubris check that
>>> Ned
>>> actually deserves.  Knowing when you are in over your head.  Now that is
>>> just as important a lesson to learn as self arrest.
>>>
>>> Also you can learn how to self arrest in about 4 hours.  That is with a
>>> group of 4:1 client to guide ratio.  If it is just you and a friend it
>>> would take half that time.  You can learn on a sledding hill behind a
>>> school or at a ski resort.  Just ask.  There is no need to put people at
>>> risk, and that is what he continues to do year after year.  Ned won't
>>> come
>>> on the list to defend his actions or lack there of.  The reason why is
>>> because the actions are indefensible.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Tue, Jul 1, 2014 at 2:32 PM, walt Durling <durlfam4 at icloud.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> > Wow, Signore seems to be suffering a bit from over-ego and pomposity.
>>>  As
>>> > far as I can discern, Tibbett covers typical PCT conditions, not the
>>> > frikin' French Alps or Himalaya's!  Ive met the  man on the trail and
>>> > found
>>> > him very knowledgeable and personable.  His techniques are basic, but
>>> NTL
>>> > important for what one may encounter in the high Sierra or Cascades.
>>> >
>>> > Roping?  Forsooth!  There are hundreds of solitary hikers out there on
>>> the
>>> > trail, and I'm one of them.  What am I gonna do with it?  Lasso a pine
>>> > tree?  What I need to know is how not to fall down a snow-covered >
>>> slope,
>>> > and if I do, how to recover.  One can graduate from any mountaineering
>>> > school anywhere complete with bona fide certified instructors......and
>>> > still fall and die. It happens.   It ain't Disney World out there!
>>> >
>>> > Ned provides a vital service anyone can profit from who hikes trails
>>> such
>>> > as the PCT, and has done so for years.  That's not to say that his
>>> > services
>>> > are absolutely needed to successfully hike the trail, but we all can
>>> stand
>>> > to learn something, and having basic snow skills adds a bit of safety.
>>> >
>>> > Signore's lambast is off the mark.
>>> >
>>> > Sent from my iPad
>>> >
>>> > > On Jun 30, 2014, at 16:02, Dave Fajer <davefajer at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> > >
>>> > > Wow!  If you have credentials...you didn't list them......can you?
>>> > >
>>> > > I have taken 3 courses from Mountain Education...All perfectly safe
>>> but
>>> > challenging IMHO and perfect for preps for my intended forays.
>>> > >
>>> > > I see some rancor in your words for sure......perhaps some personal
>>> > issues and experiences too!.  Please help me understand better where >
>>> you
>>> > are coming from.
>>> > >
>>> > > Thanks,
>>> > >
>>> > > Coastal
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > > Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE Smartphone
>>> > >
>>> > > <div>-------- Original message --------</div><div>From: Matt Signore
>>> > > <
>>> > mpsignore at gmail.com> </div><div>Date:06/30/2014  12:38 PM  (GMT-08:00)
>>> > </div><div>To: Ned Tibbits <ned at mountaineducation.org> </div><div>Cc:
>>> > johnmuirtrail at yahoogroups.com, pct-l <pct-l at backcountry.net>
>>> > </div><div>Subject: Re: [pct-l] New Mountain Education videos on
>>> YouTube!
>>> > </div><div>
>>> > > </div>I would rather see the video of the guy plummeting down Harts
>>> Pass
>>> > breaking
>>> > > 3 ribs and his scalp laceration.  You know the guy that should have
>>> been
>>> > > roped to you as his guide. he as your client.  Especially since he
>>> > > didn't
>>> > > know how to self arrest yet.  His blood is literally on your hands.
>>> > >
>>> > > No credible guide service would allow a client to travel un-roped >
>>> > with
>>> > the
>>> > > objective hazards Harts Pass can present.  If you cannot teach roped
>>> > > travel, and manage a rope team you should reconsider guiding clients.
>>> >  You
>>> > > could more safely teach snow basic courses at a ski resort and
>>> eliminate
>>> > > the risk to your clients?  That would cost each person a lift ticket
>>> at
>>> > > most.
>>> > >
>>> > > Instead of linking Youtube videos I would rather see a link to the
>>> > permits
>>> > > you have gotten from the Federal Land Agency where you are offering
>>> > > classes.  Maybe even an AMGA guide certificate.  Because if that same
>>> > > incident would have occurred with an AMGA certified guide I am quite
>>> > > sure
>>> > > the AMGA would revoke his guide's license.  You just don't seem to
>>> care
>>> > > enough to carry a rope.
>>> > >
>>> > > I hate to nit pick, but you obviously are not taking the necessary
>>> > > precautions to keep your clients safe.  A guide needs to teach and
>>> take
>>> > > necessary precautions to ensure your clients the best and safest
>>> > > possible
>>> > > experience.  Everytime you post about your guide service I will make
>>> > > sure
>>> > > this comes up.  You are not doing anyone any favors in this fashion.
>>> > > You
>>> > > are putting them in harms way.  The client is just too blind to see
>>> that
>>> > > until it is too late.
>>> > >
>>> > > Matt Signore
>>> > > _______________________________________________
>>> > > Pct-L mailing list
>>> > > Pct-L at backcountry.net
>>> > > To unsubscribe, or change options visit:
>>> > > http://mailman.backcountry.net/mailman/listinfo/pct-l
>>> > >
>>> > > List Archives:
>>> > > http://mailman.backcountry.net/pipermail/pct-l/
>>> > > All content is copyrighted by the respective authors.
>>> > > Reproduction is prohibited without express permission.
>>> > > _______________________________________________
>>> > > Pct-L mailing list
>>> > > Pct-L at backcountry.net
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>>> > > http://mailman.backcountry.net/mailman/listinfo/pct-l
>>> > >
>>> > > List Archives:
>>> > > http://mailman.backcountry.net/pipermail/pct-l/
>>> > > All content is copyrighted by the respective authors.
>>> > > Reproduction is prohibited without express permission.
>>> >
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Matt Signore
>>> *http://www.yogisbooks.com/ <http://www.yogisbooks.com/>*
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Pct-L mailing list
>>> Pct-L at backcountry.net
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>>>
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>>>
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>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>  _______________________________________________
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