[pct-l] New Mountain Education videos on YouTube!

[Ned Tibbits]

Hi, Matt,

It is for the betterment of those in our growing hiking community and 
following this conversation that I respond to your prior emails.

People do need to realize, when considering backpacking on a National Scenic 
Trail, where they may encounter levels of difficulty or hazards that may 
expose them to injury, that they may need to learn risk-assessment and 
become better skills-educated about the likely risks ahead, so they are at 
least generally prepared to evaluate dangers in the wilderness before 
deciding to place themselves in harms way. All aspiring wilderness hikers 
should have knowledge of the environmental risks and hazards into which they 
are placing themselves when backpacking and the necessary medical response 
skills in case an accident happens. Nevertheless, as we all know, even the 
professionals who are well trained (I am thinking of Ski Patrol and Search & 
Rescue members) and who are out there all the time get hurt. Wilderness is 
too beautiful a place for anything bad to happen. We all want to have safe 
and fun hikes, but accidents do occur, no matter how wise or careful we 
become with experience or training.

We have found that talking to people about the risky conditions and hazards 
that exist in wilderness (because they don't know they are out there or 
don't want to believe it), showing them what they really look like (because 
they don't know or haven't seen them yet), teaching them how to recognize 
and safety-assess those risky conditions (because it is always better to 
avoid danger, first), and demonstrate any skills or abilities that might 
help them safely deal with those conditions helps them have happier and more 
confident trips of their own.

More and more people are wanting to go hiking again. Most think a 
backpacking trip is a "walk in the park" and don't know for what they should 
prepare and, thus, find themselves surprised by any personally or 
environmentally challenging conditions they run into. We are interested in 
helping hikers know what to prepare for, according to the degree of 
difficulty prevalent where they are going, so they can choose trails within 
their experience and ability levels and minimize (because accidents happen) 
the chances of getting hurt and maximize their enjoyment of the wilderness. 
If they want to go onto conditions beyond our training and experience, we 
encourage them to attend training courses from requisite technically 
certificated sources.

It seems that you have overlooked a couple of things, so let me help you 
understand:

We are not a Business:
We do not require payment for the things we teach. If our students want to 
pay anything, or donate to the cause, that is up to them and not expected or 
required.  (We are in the process of change, however, so this will be 
different in the future. We are incorporating as a 501(c)(3), have a new 
Board of Directors, and will be charging for next year's courses like any 
public-benefit educational institution).

What we do, whether driving to and presenting at public events or driving to 
and teaching our courses or making ourselves available all day every day to 
answer questions and post pictures/videos online or over the phone, is 
accomplished almost entirely at our own expense, the finances for which we 
have none, since this is a full-time venture that is not income-producing, 
thus we are constantly struggling to survive to give away what we do. This 
is our choice.

Regarding Special Use Permits:
Because we haven't done this for money, but out of a passion to share our 
experience (of over 40 years and two thru hikes) to help hikers stay safe 
out there, the Land Management Agencies (like the USFS and NPS), don't 
require us to apply for and obtain Special Use Permits to conduct an 
otherwise income-producing business on public land. We are as if, according 
to them, a friend or acquaintance going with you out on the trail to show 
you a few trail skills that might make your hike easier and safer.

Regarding Insurance:
For the same reason, we are not required to have insurance. (Obviously, 
because we desire to become a legitimate business, for next year this will 
change). We might want to carry personal insurance, but that is up to us. To 
protect ourselves a little, personally, and better inform our students of 
what they are getting into, we do ask that they sign a Risk Awareness 
Statement and Release of Liability Waiver. We make sure, also, that they 
have been thoroughly informed about and see, via pictures and video, the 
conditions into which they are choosing to go.

Regarding not being a Guide Service:
Again, we are not a business that trades its service to customers for any 
tangible exchange. We are not a Guide Service that receives money for 
guiding people places. So, what we provide does not fall under any business 
regulations or restrictions. In essence, we are just people who want to help 
other people for free and at our expense. We do accompany people into the 
backcountry to share of what we have learned over the years.

Regarding the skills we teach:
According to the American Mountain Guides Association (AMGA), we do not need 
to be AMGA trained or certified because we do not go onto slopes where its 
Grade or Class rating would suggest climbing-level certification to maintain 
personal safety. Therefore, we do not teach "mountaineering" or technical 
climbing skills. According to the AMGA, showing someone how to use an ice 
axe for self-arrest on non-technical slopes does not require certification 
from them. This skill is included in a Mountaineering Course where the 
context takes students, guests, or clients onto slopes steep and severe 
enough where this response skill may be necessary for personal and group 
safety. We are a wilderness backpacking school that teaches people about 
snow-camping and travel. According to the AMGA, there are no slopes on the 
Pacific Crest Trail that would require mountaineering techniques or 
adjuncts.

Nevertheless, we hold and renew yearly certificates from the American 
Avalanche Association and the American Institute for Avalanche Research and 
Education (AIARE) to help us risk-assess the kind of snow slopes we do 
travel upon. We feel this level of education and training is necessary to 
keep our students safe over the degree of difficulty we encounter. We are 
Wilderness EMT, Search & Rescue, and National Ski Patrol trained and yearly 
current and retired Paramedic and USFS Wilderness Ranger experienced.

In Sum:

We are not a Guide Service because we are not a business.
We do not need Special Use Permits because we don't require payment for what 
we freely give.
We do not teach technical mountaineering skills or certification because we 
do not go anywhere requiring them.
If conditions present exceed our training and the safety of our group, we do 
not continue.
We (and our students) recognize that accidents are unpredictable and happen 
no matter your training, experience, or expertise.
We encourage all aspiring hikers to know the risks into which they are 
headed before leaving from the trailhead.
If you are headed for sufficiently steep Grades or Classes of slope that 
require mountaineering skills, go to a certificated trainer.


Ned Tibbits, Director
Mountain Education
www.mountaineducation.org

Mission:
"To minimize wilderness accidents, injury, and illness through experiential 
education and risk awareness training."
-----Original Message----- 
From: Matt Signore
Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2014 2:14 PM
To: pct-l
Subject: Re: [pct-l] New Mountain Education videos on YouTube!

Ok well since there are about 2600+ people on the list serve and exactly 2
people have stepped up and offered contrary opinions, and one privately in
support.  Who is of the minority opinion?  You Walt? Or me?

He let someone fall and get really hurt under his guidance.  When you read
the Mountain Education mission statement it is completely contrary to what
is actually practiced by his guide service.

Mission:
“To minimize wilderness accidents, injury, and illness through experiential
education and risk awareness training.”
     - Mountain Education

Maybe Ned needs to re read that before each trip, and actually employ the
message

As far as not being having the client tied in.

If any credible accredited guide service has clients traversing snow, and
the potential fall hazard is a treeline, crevasse, cliff, and or a boulder
field the client will be on a rope.  One of two things is true about his
clients fall.  Either Ned is too inexperienced to understand what a fall
hazard is or he doesn't care.  Either way it is the guide's (sic)
responsibility to get you home safely.  The problem is if you are taking
his class you don't know just how unsafe Ned is being during his course.

Just because you went to high school does not qualify you to teach high
school.  You need a teaching degree to teach.   Even when it isn't a life
or death, safe or hurt decision people still want certifications.
Same with mountaineering you should be certified to teach mountaineering
before you are teaching people.  The difference if you get an "F" on your
Algebra test you don't die.  If you fail in mountaineering your emergency
contact gets a phone call and you never celebrate another birthday.  What
is more important education or continuing to breathe?  You wouldn't think
of hiring a nanny without a background check to make sure your child is
safe with that person.  It would behoove you to take the same due diligence
when picking a guide that is keeping you alive.

If he were worth hiring don't you think he would be working with one of the
many guide services operating in the same locations?  Realistically there
is not a single guide service willing to hire him.  They can't hire him
because he lacks certification.  If a guide service isn't willing to hire
him why should you?  The difference between you and a guide service is that
they already know he isn't qualified to teach.

Walt you are absolutely correct you do not need a rope to hike the PCT in
season, but there are many other things taught by Mountain Education that
will never come into play.  It has been done by a ton of people 10's of
thousands in fact without a rope.  However, there have been conditions that
people "sit out" or skip around.  Why didn't he take the class to a
different safer location?

Make sure to learn the following at Mountain Education also.

   - Emergency Shelters

   Snow Pit Analysis

   Seriously who carries a shovel on the PCT?  That is one of the few ways
   to dig the pit and the snow cave.


In fact one class member had the guts to turn around based on novice
ability and instinct alone.  That person is probably going to hike this
year.  Was that client still with a guide when they turned around?  Because
at Mountain Education they have standards or they would like you to believe
if you read their website.  Here is the standard they set and adhere to or
so they say.


   - When traveling, everyone stays together and along a specifically
   designated route with your Instructors in front and back of your group.

The client Ned led into less than ideal conditions is not doing as well.
The guide standard is to never split from your client ever.  In fact if
one person needs to turn around and there are not any other guides on the
trip the entire class has to turn around.  If I recall correctly the ratio
can never go beyond 4:1  Once you sign on for a course with a guide they
are responsible for your well being.  In fact you can't be left alone at
camp without a guide if you are on their permit.

As far as the over ego - pomposity comment.  That was actually displayed by
Ned when he didn't choose to turn the class around.  It takes more guts to
turn around than continue.  Sadly his client got the hubris check that Ned
actually deserves.  Knowing when you are in over your head.  Now that is
just as important a lesson to learn as self arrest.

Also you can learn how to self arrest in about 4 hours.  That is with a
group of 4:1 client to guide ratio.  If it is just you and a friend it
would take half that time.  You can learn on a sledding hill behind a
school or at a ski resort.  Just ask.  There is no need to put people at
risk, and that is what he continues to do year after year.  Ned won't come
on the list to defend his actions or lack there of.  The reason why is
because the actions are indefensible.



On Tue, Jul 1, 2014 at 2:32 PM, walt Durling <durlfam4 at icloud.com> wrote:

> Wow, Signore seems to be suffering a bit from over-ego and pomposity.  As
> far as I can discern, Tibbett covers typical PCT conditions, not the
> frikin' French Alps or Himalaya's!  Ive met the  man on the trail and 
> found
> him very knowledgeable and personable.  His techniques are basic, but NTL
> important for what one may encounter in the high Sierra or Cascades.
>
> Roping?  Forsooth!  There are hundreds of solitary hikers out there on the
> trail, and I'm one of them.  What am I gonna do with it?  Lasso a pine
> tree?  What I need to know is how not to fall down a snow-covered slope,
> and if I do, how to recover.  One can graduate from any mountaineering
> school anywhere complete with bona fide certified instructors......and
> still fall and die. It happens.   It ain't Disney World out there!
>
> Ned provides a vital service anyone can profit from who hikes trails such
> as the PCT, and has done so for years.  That's not to say that his 
> services
> are absolutely needed to successfully hike the trail, but we all can stand
> to learn something, and having basic snow skills adds a bit of safety.
>
> Signore's lambast is off the mark.
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
> > On Jun 30, 2014, at 16:02, Dave Fajer <davefajer at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > Wow!  If you have credentials...you didn't list them......can you?
> >
> > I have taken 3 courses from Mountain Education...All perfectly safe but
> challenging IMHO and perfect for preps for my intended forays.
> >
> > I see some rancor in your words for sure......perhaps some personal
> issues and experiences too!.  Please help me understand better where you
> are coming from.
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Coastal
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE Smartphone
> >
> > <div>-------- Original message --------</div><div>From: Matt Signore <
> mpsignore at gmail.com> </div><div>Date:06/30/2014  12:38 PM  (GMT-08:00)
> </div><div>To: Ned Tibbits <ned at mountaineducation.org> </div><div>Cc:
> johnmuirtrail at yahoogroups.com, pct-l <pct-l at backcountry.net>
> </div><div>Subject: Re: [pct-l] New Mountain Education videos on YouTube!
> </div><div>
> > </div>I would rather see the video of the guy plummeting down Harts Pass
> breaking
> > 3 ribs and his scalp laceration.  You know the guy that should have been
> > roped to you as his guide. he as your client.  Especially since he 
> > didn't
> > know how to self arrest yet.  His blood is literally on your hands.
> >
> > No credible guide service would allow a client to travel un-roped with
> the
> > objective hazards Harts Pass can present.  If you cannot teach roped
> > travel, and manage a rope team you should reconsider guiding clients.
>  You
> > could more safely teach snow basic courses at a ski resort and eliminate
> > the risk to your clients?  That would cost each person a lift ticket at
> > most.
> >
> > Instead of linking Youtube videos I would rather see a link to the
> permits
> > you have gotten from the Federal Land Agency where you are offering
> > classes.  Maybe even an AMGA guide certificate.  Because if that same
> > incident would have occurred with an AMGA certified guide I am quite 
> > sure
> > the AMGA would revoke his guide's license.  You just don't seem to care
> > enough to carry a rope.
> >
> > I hate to nit pick, but you obviously are not taking the necessary
> > precautions to keep your clients safe.  A guide needs to teach and take
> > necessary precautions to ensure your clients the best and safest 
> > possible
> > experience.  Everytime you post about your guide service I will make 
> > sure
> > this comes up.  You are not doing anyone any favors in this fashion. 
> > You
> > are putting them in harms way.  The client is just too blind to see that
> > until it is too late.
> >
> > Matt Signore
> > _______________________________________________
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>



-- 
Matt Signore
*http://www.yogisbooks.com/ <http://www.yogisbooks.com/>*
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