[pct-l] Alcohol and Esbit Stoves

[Andrew Kraus]

Having some of these same questions and wondering what people are
using/recommending for their stove this year?  Thank you


On Wed, Apr 9, 2014 at 3:13 PM, JPL <jplynch at crosslink.net> wrote:

> Sure and I got that.  But it is the responsibility of the agency, BLM in
> this case, to explain and clarify their regulations.  This is not a hard
> thing to ask them to do.  I used to work for the gummint and trust me we
> did that all the time!  I remember one contractor calling and asking “can
> we turn this piece 90 degrees”, and I said no and told them why.  They were
> right to ask the question and it my responsibility to answer it and explain
> my reasoning.  It should be a bit instructive to us that they couldn’t
> answer Brick’s question right on the spot (and apparently haven’t answered
> it yet!). :)
>
> From: tsparks56 at aol.com
> Sent: Wednesday, April 09, 2014 5:26 PM
> To: jplynch at crosslink.net ; brick at brickrobbins.com ; pct-l at backcountry.net
> Subject: Re: [pct-l] Alcohol and Esbit Stoves
>
>  I understand about Esbit stoves and all but, my bigger concern is,
> instead of trying to find a definition to the BLM order and telling
> everyone within ear shot that, what the PCTA says is 'slightly' different
> than what BLM says, why don't we all just be safe, do the correct thing,
> enjoy our hikes and give good direction to the others on this list.
>
> It's not that hard to do.
>
>
>
> Terry
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: JPL <jplynch at crosslink.net>
> To: brick <brick at brickrobbins.com>; pct-l <pct-l at backcountry.net>;
> tsparks56 <tsparks56 at aol.com>
> Sent: Wed, Apr 9, 2014 1:41 pm
> Subject: Re: [pct-l] Alcohol and Esbit Stoves
>
>
> Didn’t say it was; I was speaking of and only of an esbit stove.  And
> accidents can happen with any stove.
>
> From: tsparks56 at aol.com
> Sent: Wednesday, April 09, 2014 4:33 PM
> To: jplynch at crosslink.net ; brick at brickrobbins.com ; pct-l at backcountry.net
> Subject: Re: [pct-l] Alcohol and Esbit Stoves
>
> How is a tipped over alcohol stove under anyone's control?
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: JPL <jplynch at crosslink.net>
> To: brick <brick at brickrobbins.com>; pct-l <pct-l at backcountry.net>;
> tsparks56 <tsparks56 at aol.com>
> Sent: Wed, Apr 9, 2014 1:30 pm
> Subject: Re: [pct-l] Alcohol and Esbit Stoves
>
>
> Its fine to understand the dictionary definition of terms, but laws and
> regulations will sometimes have their own definitions and a more detailed
> explanation of what something means than strictly relying on the
> dictionary.
> Brick is right on target in seeking more definitive answers.  I use an
> esbit
> tablet stove.  Its under my control.  When I'm ready, I blow out the tab.
>  I
> could argue that the esbit stove and tablet are fully under my control.
>  But
> I realize that the agency governing the land where I am may have a
> different
> understanding and I'm fine with that.  Just tell me.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: tsparks56 at aol.com
> Sent: Wednesday, April 09, 2014 4:25 PM
> To: brick at brickrobbins.com ; pct-l at backcountry.net
> Subject: Re: [pct-l] Alcohol and Esbit Stoves
>
>
>
>
> Brick, at first I thought the problem was a reading comprehension problem
> but, now I think it's more of a misunderstanding of what the word
>  "control'
> is defined as, for this application.  To help you along, I have taken the
> liberty of providing a copy of the definition of "control" for you.
>
> con·trol
>   [kuhn-trohl]  Show IPA
>
> verb (used with object), con·trolled, con·trol·ling.
> 1.
> to exercise restraint or direction over; dominate; command.
>
> 2.
> to hold in check; curb: to control a horse; to control one's emotions.
>
> 3.
> to test or verify (a scientific experiment) by a parallel experiment or
> other standard of comparison.
>
> 4.
> to eliminate or prevent the flourishing or spread of: to control a forest
> fire.
>
> 5.
> Obsolete . to check or regulate (transactions), originally by means of a
> duplicate register.
>
> http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/control
>
> Brick, if you think I'm being an ass about this, it is because you, as the
> moderator of this list should hold yourself to a higher standard for
> everyone to follow, especially when it comes to safety issues and, if need
> be, error on the side of caution and common sense. If you don't completely
> understand the wording of this BLM order, all that needs to be understood,
> of which I do, is to understand the intent of the BLM directive.
> If you want to play games with the wording and pretend you don't understand
> something as important as this, please keep it to yourself.  As for you
> being the moderator of this board, I beg you to present yourself to having
> a
> higher standard, especially for the very inexperienced hikers among us to
> follow.
> We don't need an accidental fire on the trail and I don't want to attend
> anymore Fire Fighters funerals.
>
> Thank you,
>
> Terry Sparks
> 34 years, Los Angeles County Fire Department (retired)
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Brick Robbins <brick at brickrobbins.com>
> To: pct-l <pct-l at backcountry.net>
> Sent: Wed, Apr 9, 2014 12:38 pm
> Subject: Re: [pct-l] Alcohol and Esbit Stoves
>
>
> On Wed, Apr 9, 2014 at 10:33 AM, Ken Murray <kmurray at dr.com> wrote:
> >  *Setting, building, maintaining, attending, or using open fire of any
> > kind is
> prohibited in the*
> >  *designated area. *Controlled flame devices such as portable stoves
> > fueled by
> petroleum or LPG products
> > are allowed only by permit.
> >
> > Brick, you left out the first sentence. The second sentence provides an
> exception to the first. Alcohol and Esbit would clearly be banned, because
> neither runs on "Petroleum or LPG products"
>
> And you left out the words "SUCH AS" which does not strictly limit the
> type of stoves to "Petroleum or LPG products" but merely uses them as
> examples.
>
> I don't think the PCTA should have changed the words "SUCH AS" to "ONLY."
>
> > I think this is crystal clear. Brick, if you don't, why don't you call
> the
> > BLM
> and ask for clarification?
>
> I did. The person who answered the phone didn't know, and was going to
> get back to me. I'm still waiting.
>
> My beef with this is that laws and regulation should be clear.
>
> The USFS order clearly mandates stoves with a shutoff valve. The BLM
> order does not.  Some  folks are assuming that "controlled flame"
> means the same as "has a shutoff valve" without a really good basis.
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