[pct-l] C-A-M-P-F-I-R-E-S / And the Mountain Bike problem

Mon May 13 01:36:13 CDT 2013

This has obviously been a heated discussion since mnt bikes first started popping up in the 80's.  My family and close friends all ride, we have a web page to discuss trails and record rides, some of us have raced professionally, some have not. However, one thing all of us have in common is we each put in 100+ rides a year on some of the most heavily hiked and biked trails in the world, Northern Utah, Colorado and Moab.  Another thing every person I know who mountain bikes has in common is no one has ever been involved or even seen a collision between hikers and bikers, I have never heard of one and I worked in a mnt bike shop in Moab for years, if was going to happen that would be a place it happened often.  I am not saying this has never happened but I highly doubt its a significant number.  In re steep and narrow trails, bikers know better on trails with hikers, you have to understand the guy on the bike going 35 doesnt want to take a header,
 there are trails with runners and bikers, specifically backside of Amassa Back, with a wall on one side and a few hundred feet on the the other with three too four feet of trail, no one has ever gone off avoiding a bike or vice versa...my ex boss in Moab did fall off while running due to a loose rock, you may have seen it on "i shouldnt be alive", her dog found search and rescue after three days and took them to her.  Point being is that dont take us back to the 80's nonsense, we have been riding trails together for 30 years and its rarely a problem. If the PCT wants to remain bike free thats fine but dont use a baseless fear to keep it that way.

If you want to work on trails, if you want to see probably the largest population of people who work on trails, go into your local bike shop and tell them you want to be on their trail building or maintenance crew, they work in large numbers tirelessly on trails regardless of whether its a mnt bike exclusive trail.  

________________________________
 From: Benjamin Grunbaum <bengrunbaum at gmail.com>
To: jason povey <golobos_55 at yahoo.com>; pct-l at backcountry.net 
Sent: Sunday, May 12, 2013 10:55 PM
Subject: Re: [pct-l] C-A-M-P-F-I-R-E-S / And the Mountain Bike problem

I have always found this discussion rather unproductive.  I mountain bike now and then, hike frequently and would like to ride horses but have not had more than a handful of opportunities.  The truth in this discussion is that all hikers, bikers and horses all cause damage to the trail.  I have helped with trail work, as many of you have, and have seen damage done by all three.  I hiked 18.5 miles on the PCT by Idyllwild yesterday and saw quite a few areas where people (most certainly hikers) had cut switchbacks.  I saw areas where the narrow trail had collapsed on the downslope edge of the footbed because of horses.  While I did not see any mountain bike tracks yesterday, I can say that mountain bikers frequently ride up banks that were not meant to be ridden up.  One thing that, I would venture to say, almost everyone does is go around wet or muddy areas.  While the torn up area is a sign that the trail could be improved, when you walk around
 the areas you are creating more problems.  I must admit, I am guilty as charged.  I have done less than ideal things for the trail in the process of trying to enjoy myself and not getting unecessarily dirty.  

More important than debating who causes the most damage, a argument which will never end, is what we do, as individuals, about the damage that was created?  There are many ways we can work to mitigate the negative effects of the communities we consider ourselves a part of.  Donating time and money being the main ways.
I will say that I have learned all three communities (hiking, biking and equestrian) shed blood, sweat and tears and donate money to maintain trail.

Now, I must opine that, in general, allowing bikes on the PCT is a horrible idea.  On the steep and narrow trail in areas such as the PCT around Idyllwild, a very serious if not fatal injury would be likely should a fast mountain biker come down such a trail.  It could only end badly.  Allowing bikers on the PCT would be a very dangerous proposition.  While I do not doubt members of the mountain biking community would help repair the PCT were they aloud to ride on it, the negatives far outweigh the positives of allowing Mountain bikes on the PCT.  There are plenty of other safer places for mountain bikers to go where going so fast is unlikely to result in grave injury or aggravating encounter for a hiker or equestrian.  

On Sun, May 12, 2013 at 9:39 PM, jason povey <golobos_55 at yahoo.com> wrote:

Congress cares about what lobbyist tell them to care about.  SUWA is a great example of how to lobby congress to get them to give a crap about protecting trails and wilderness, check them out and the Red Rock Act they have been working on.  My intention was not to start an argument, I mountain bike and love touring so of course I would love to tour the PCT, it would be amazing.  That being said I do see how hikers feel uncomfortable with mnt bikes on the trail, i am not advocating motorbikes, but I have never in 18yrs of mnt biking seen a bike tear up a trail like a horse.  The conditions to cause significant damage are not conditions people typically choose to ride in and frankly muddy trails are nearly impossible to ride a bike...but not a horse not even getting into the damage caused by a 1000lb animal with four legs and a 200lb man on a 30 lb bike with 3in wide tires.  I am fine sticking with the Divide trail and maybe someday there will be a
> sister trail to the PCT for bikers like has been developed on the divide, but then again you have to weigh the damage of a new trail.  Its a sticky subject and one that I dont think is important enough to spend time arguing over, there are much more pressing issues threatening our wilderness than my fat tires.  Jason
>
>
>
>________________________________
> From: Dan Jacobs <youroldpaldan at gmail.com>
>To: pct-l at backcountry.net
>Sent: Sunday, May 12, 2013 8:33 PM
>Subject: Re: [pct-l] C-A-M-P-F-I-R-E-S / And the Mountain Bike problem
>
>
>I have one point to make about talking about bicycles on the PCT. It was
>tried here, and it was, looking back on it and including my participation
>in it, just plain awful. Of course that is just my opinion, but I am
>confident there are plenty of others that share it.
>
>Continuing to go over the same old points with the same people expecting a
>different outcome is possibly a good definition for insanity. That kind of
>insanity will do nothing good here, but hey, of that's what you want, go
>for it. It will work out just like the times before: doing nothing and
>getting nowhere. There's a moderator here that will (try to) end it when
>the time comes.
>
>As far as asking me what my "qualifications" are, they are everything, and
>they are nothing, just like everyone else. What kind of person wants to
>compare their worthiness to have an opinion to someone else? Someone that I
>don't care to be affiliated too closely with.
>
>Hike your own hike, Ed. Don't worry about me, I really don't matter.
>
>Dan Jacobs
>Washougal
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