[pct-l] Problems on the PCT

Sun Sep 30 19:40:41 CDT 2012

HOLY CRAP!  Did somebody just suggest "Dumping Stations" on the JMT?  Easy to find, you say they'd be?  I've hiked the JMT many times since I was a boy and I don't recall the places you're thinking of that would be good places for a dumping station.  Rae Lakes? McClure Meadow?  Maybe Crabtree Meadows?  Do you really think anybody would go for this?  Hiker or horseman, who would want there to be a pile of horse shit in the wilderness?

No.  One of the ideas behind the management of stock in the forest for many years is the idea of dispersing the horse shit over as large an area as possible to allow it to be absorbed by the environment without causing mayhem to an ecosystem.  One of the points of Leave No Trace (Stock) that the BCHC teaches is to scatter the manure over a large area.  Dispersed it is "manageable", in a "dumping station" is would be a blight.  There are no tractors on the JMT to "manage" a dumping station of horse shit.

I think you need to reconsider your proposal!

You say that the real problem is the water from thunderstorms that take the droppings into sensitive water systems.  Where does the water not flow through the land of the JMT?  You know it snows there, right?  Snow melts and the water flows, not just from summer thunderstorms, but from the snow in all of the surroundings of the John Muir Trail.  There are no places that the water does not flow from the land to a tarn or lake or marsh and most of those flow into creeks, streams, and rivers.  Again, I think you need to reconsider your proposal for "dumping stations"

Respectfully,
QuincyRider

--- On Sun, 9/30/12, Boris Trgovcich <btrgovcich at yahoo.com> wrote:

From: Boris Trgovcich <btrgovcich at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [pct-l] Problems on the PCT
To: "Charles Williams" <charlesnolie at yahoo.com>, "PCT list" <Pct-L at backcountry.net>
Date: Sunday, September 30, 2012, 3:29 PM

Charles,
If diapers were to be used in high impact areas (primarily the JMT), it would be easy to find "dumping stations" along the way that have a minimal impact on the environment. They can be managed.  The bigger problem with the diaper idea is getting a wrangler to accept a diaper on his animal.   That is a cultural problem.

Also it is not really the poop on the trail that is a problem.  During the summer thunderstorms all that gets washed into the meadows, lakes and streams. Some of those ponds and lakes are not large and the nutrient load from the horse manure must be significant.  

From: Charles Williams <charlesnolie at yahoo.com>
To: PCT list <Pct-L at backcountry.net> 
Sent: Sunday, September 30, 2012 2:27 PM
Subject: Re: [pct-l] Problems on the PCT

In my thoughts, a trail is what has been built to sustain and focus peoples (and their animals) impact to a small, narrow path.  This keeps 99% of the backcountry in relatively pristine condition so that when we venture off the path to see something special, it is indeed "special" and not spoiled by the impact of humans.  

If we put diapers on our animals, where are we to dump it?  If we dump it on the trail ( the place designated for our impact) what's the point.  If we dump it in the 99% of the pristine wild lands that are suppossed to be free from impact, what then?  Do you really want to find ten 10lbs piles of horse shit in the forest when you're 100' from what should have been the last discernable impact of humanity?  Even if we scatter it, a group of 4 clients with a cook and a packer plus 5 mules...that's 11 animals and at least 100 lbs of horse shit a day going into diapers to be dumped in the bushes.  Or the meadow?  or the forest?  Tell me what sensitive ecosystem that is unspoiled is the best place to dump it?  

Myself, I'll take it on the trail.  I think that's where it belongs...

Quincy Rider

--- On Sun, 9/30/12, Inga Aksamit <iaksamit at aol.com> wrote:

From: Inga Aksamit <iaksamit at aol.com>
Subject: Re: [pct-l] Problems on the PCT
To: socalbackpackers at outlook.com, pct-l at backcountry.net
Date: Sunday, September 30, 2012, 1:43 PM

You raise some good points and I do agree with you on most of them. I often think about and discuss the disturbing trend of wanting the outdoors to be sterile, safe and theme-park like, and I don't want to go that direction. Not everything in the natural world is pretty or pleasant and I actually don't have a problem with farms and cattle and appreciate that ranch owners allow hikers to pass through. My issues might be a little different from Boris'. I want to separate the issue of pack animals on the trail from ranches and wild animals. Your comments on why wag bags in the Whitney Zone are very appropriate and I believe the same kind of thinking can be applied to pack animals. In heavily traveled areas of the trail (heavily traveled by humans and large groups of pack animals) like the JMT or HST, why can't those animals wear a "diaper" like urban horses do? It seems to me that it would be analogous to the wag bags for us. Even you say, " I think in that
area, due to the volu
me of people and animals,  you should pack out any waste you or your animal drops on the trail." So maybe we agree on some points and can agree to disagree on others. 

Inga Aksamit 

-----Original Message-----
From: James Lott <socalbackpackers at outlook.com>
To: Inga Aksamit <iaksamit at aol.com>; pct-l <pct-l at backcountry.net>
Sent: Sun, Sep 30, 2012 1:18 pm
Subject: RE: [pct-l] Problems on the PCT

What frustrates me is how people have become so afraid of anything that is not sterile.  We have sanitizers stuck to every wall.  We buy Purell  buy the gallon and OMG if you don't filter your water from running streams 10,000 feet in the mountains.  Now some whack job wants to fence off the PCT from the cattle that roam the open space we hike through.  We are the visitors on the PCT. We hike through neighborhoods, ranch land and the back country that is filled with animals that were there before the PCT ever existed.
Step over it, around it or in it, it is not that big of a deal.  Go out and enjoy nature the way it is and stop trying to change it because animal poop is dirty and disgusting.  

And as far as the Whitney Zone goes, they allow 100 day hikers and 60 backpackers a day in the Whitney Zone during the summer.  Considering that most of us have the intelligence to bag our own waste, you would put that in the same category as animals to just take a dump where ever?  I think in that area, due to the volume of people and animals,  you should pack out any waste you or your animal drops on the trail.

Jim

> To: pct-l at backcountry.net
> From: iaksamit at aol.com
> Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2012 15:07:33 -0400
> Subject: Re: [pct-l] Problems on the PCT
> 
> Wow, I'm surprised at all the negative energy directed at Boris, who was just expressing an opinion and providing a suggestion of officials that can be contacted if people so desire, which I personally appreciated. I am completely at peace with the *wild* animals on the trails, who leave interesting droppings every now and then that allow us to try an identify them and what they are eating. That's very different from the numerous piles of stinking, fly-ridden piles of manure that line the JMT and HST. I've hiked on trails throughout the Western U.S., BC, Alaska and the Yukon, and never have my husband and I been so put off as we were when confronted several times a day by such a volume of manure. I've never minded sharing the trail with horses and mules and appreciate their beauty and usefulness, but it's a matter of volume. These are not wild animals, and you must admit that it's ironic that humans have to use wagbags in the Whitney Zone while
stepping over large amounts p
oo
>  p from animals who are there with humans.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Inga
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ********
> 
>  
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