[pct-l] Presumptuous. Self- righteous. Intolerant

Tue Sep 18 22:53:22 CDT 2012

Speaking of campfires, here's a silly question:

I've never started a fire when backpacking (just hasn't really occurred to
me that I need one), but I would imagine that when thru-hiking, it gets
confusing to remember which parks/areas allow fires, and which ones don't.
How do you keep these all straight when you're on the trail and can't just
go and look it up?

I have some guide books, but can't recall if it mentions anything in regard
to fire within each section.

On Tue, Sep 18, 2012 at 8:26 PM, Ryan Hull <rynos1234 at gmail.com> wrote:

> I'd like to ask for a little grace in this entire discussion, and I hold up
> one of my own mistakes as an example.  I can say, from personal experience,
> that it is entirely possible to overlook signage just like the mountain
> bikers did.  Earlier this summer 2 friends and I went floating down a river
> on inner tubes.  All THREE of us truly failed to notice the FOUR signs
> indicating that this was not allowed.  We were excited to get out on the
> river on a hot day and it never occurred to us that what we were doing
> mightn't allowed so we weren't looking for anything contrariwise.  Near the
> end of our float a cop called us out of the river and handed each of us $85
> tickets.  I didn't contest the ticket because I was in fact breaking the
> law (ignorance is no excuse), but it was an honest mistake.  Had we noticed
> any one of the signs indicating that inner tubes were not allowed we
> absolutely would have spent the couple dollars to rent an allowed canoe or
> raft and it never would've been an issue.  When we climbed onto our tubes
> at the river there were maybe a dozen people in the parking lot near us.
> If even one of those people had said to us, "Hey, you probably shouldn't do
> that because..." we would've gratefully gone back and rented a legal boat,
> but nobody did so we continued in our ignorance.
>
> We cannot know whether the bikers saw the marker and ignored it or whether
> it was really an accident.  It doesn't excuse the fact that they were
> there, but it is encouraging that when they were informed of their misdeed
> they turned back the way they came.
>
> The same thing goes for campfires.  I do not believe most people willingly
> break these sorts of laws when they are aware of them.  I tend to agree
> with others who say that greater awareness is the first step towards
> combating man-caused fire issues, both real and imagined.  Will that be
> enough to completely stop the problem?  Probably not, but it would at least
> reduce the number of accidental situations like I got myself into with the
> inner tubes.
>
> Again, I'm not saying those who have fires in ban areas should be excused,
> and if they are caught by those with authority to issue
> fines/citations/whatever they should get what they have coming, but please
> don't assume that they are doing it maliciously.  If you happen across
> someone on the trail breaking a law like a fire ban, please, inform them
> kindly that they're doing it illegally.  They may actually thank you!  If
> they persist, though, by all means report them or do whatever your
> conscience considers right (so long as it's legal ;) ).
>
> Humbly,
> -Ryan
>
>
>
> On Tue, Sep 18, 2012 at 4:01 PM, Edward Anderson <mendoridered at yahoo.com
> >wrote:
>
> > Yes, Timothy, in thinking back about what you wrote, I have conccluded
> > that you are right. Your description of myself and my action is fairly
> > accurate. There are other adjectives that might also apply, including my
> > sometimes even being radical when trying to make right something that I
> > consider wrong.
> >
> > First, let's consider "presumptuous".  I will sometimes be willing to
> step
> > forward, as I did relating to illegal campfires on the PCT, rather than
> > remain silent. I wanted  to call attention to what I saw as a very
> > real threat to the trail, the surrounding environment, and people's
> homes -
> > mine included. When you live in Agua Dulce you become conscious of the
> > possibility of wildfires.  But, are not those who blatantly ignore the
> > campfire ban and take the liberty of (knowing that it is not
> > enforced) having a fire anyway - - - .  Are they not also being
> > "self-righteous"? Are they not "intolerant" of the law - a law that will,
> > hopefully, help protect against human-started wildfires. In my opinion,
> > it's up to US to do what the Forest Service can't do. Gary did the right
> > thing when he confronted two groups of hikers who had illegal campfires.
> > Would you have joined them or simply walked by and said nothing? I recall
> > Jeff Saufley telling me of his
> >  having confronted mountain bikers illegally riding on the PCT. This
> > spring, while helping BCH Ray Drasher clear some trees on Section D, we
> > came upon four mountain bikers illegally riding on the PCT. I took their
> > pictures and told them to get off the trail immediately. They claimed
> that
> > they did not know that they were not allowed to ride bikes on the
> > trail.  They did turn back. About 200' from where we confronted them was
> a
> > road crossing. The PCT that they took was conspicuously marked with a
> sign,
> > which included a bike with a red slash through it. Since there were four
> of
> > them, I can't believe that none saw that sign. Wheeled vehicles are not
> > allowed on the PCT or in any Wilderness Areas. My observation is that the
> > continuous track is a groove that can become a rut when there is rain.
> > Water will run down grooves and ruts -very hard on a trail that is
> > already difficult to maintain.
> >
> > As for being radical, some thought I was radical when, in the mid-1970's,
> > I joined, and became very active, in the Greenpeace Foundation. Some
> > thought it radical when Greenpeace confronted Soviet Whalers, positioning
> > human volunteers in inflatable Zodiac boats between the whalers and the
> > whales. Those old enough to remember know that we got a lot of media
> > attention. Everyone became conscious of the plight of the whales. With
> > public support, we made positive progress with the International
> > Whaling Commission in saving whales from extinction. The good fight
> > continues with ex-Greenpeace Captain Paul Watkins. He is Captain of the
> Sea
> > Shepherd. I'm sure most have seen Whale Wars on Animal Planet. I had met
> > Paul Watkins aboard our ship, the James Bay, in 1976. Our Greenpeace ship
> > and crew was about to leave San Francisco Harbor to confront Soviet
> > whalers. I was to become a media spokesman for Greenpeace. I helped
> > Governor Jerry Brown (yes, he was
> >  Governor then too) raise a substantial amount of money to fund his
> > contribution to the cause, "California Celebrates the Whale".  The
> Governor
> > felt that if you want to save the whales you must first celebrate them.
> The
> > all-day event was held in Sacramento.
> >
> > MendoRider
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