[pct-l] Mountain Bikes and Trail Damage

Tue Oct 9 11:43:34 CDT 2012

I have yet to come across (or have them come across me) a biker on the PCT
or any trail (I do about 300 to 400 miles a year besides my PCT miles) that
stops for or is courteous to hikers... Mostly it's "On your left" as they
scream by, if I even get anything other than the sound of tires coming up
behind... I would therefor have to assume that there are more 'idiots'
among mountain bikers than those that are 'respectful.'

On Tue, Oct 9, 2012 at 9:09 AM, James Lott <socalbackpackers at outlook.com>wrote:

> Many of the trails the I ride on also have horses on them  Contrary to
> popular belief on this site, most mountain bike riders are respectful to
> horses and hikers.   We always stop and let the horse pass or ride slow
> past the horse so they are not spooked. As with any sport or activity, you
> will always find the idiots in the group.  And those will be the people
> that are point to by the other side as the reason they should not be there
> or allowed to participate
>
>
>
> > From: timpnye at gmail.com
> > Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2012 18:25:48 -0700
> > To: tokencivilian at yahoo.com
> > CC: pct-l at backcountry.net
> > Subject: Re: [pct-l] Mountain Bikes and Trail Damage
> >
> > Barry,
> >
> > Cogent.
> >
> > My thought with respect to Wilderness Act solution would be a strip of
> wilderness 50 yards wide or so on all public lands which are traversed by
> the trail. This would necessarily exclude existing road crossings.
> >
> > The danger, as I see it, is that we are looking at a possible regulatory
> fiat that disregards the legislative intent of the original legislation.
> Remember that the original Congressional enactment proceeded the
> development of the mountain bike. It would seem that that fact should
> preclude any regulatory action to execute the Act that would allow such a
> device The question should not be whether or not it is a specifically
> excluded activity, rather whether it is a specifically endorsed activity
> within the ambit the legislation.
> >
> > Realistically, it is clear to me that the executive branch does not feel
> it must so defer given the fact they even feel they have the right to even
> consider such an action.
> >
> > One of the pluses that horse traffic provides is that allows those with
> many types of disabilities that cannot either hike, or bike, access to the
> trail. It allows families access. If bikes are allowed, then access to the
> trail is actually restricted in terms of the proportion of the population
> having access to the extent equestrian usage is no longer safe. Thus,
> allowing bikes may be seen as discriminatory. It must be shown, however,
> that the MTB's disregard their obligation to yield to horses and hikers.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Sent from my iPad
> >
> > On Oct 8, 2012, at 5:33 PM, Barry Teschlog <tokencivilian at yahoo.com>
> wrote:
> >
> > > To those that claim MTB's don't significantly damage trails, I call
> ignorance on that statement (and I use dictionary definition of ignorance -
> lack of knowledge).
> > >
> > > I base that statement as a trail maintainer (as a volunteer WTA
> assistant crew leader and volunteer PCTA crew leader), hiker and avid
> mountain biker. I've worked on both the PCT (hiker and stock), trails at
> Tiger Mountain (just east of Seattle) where trails are open to horse, hiker
> and MTBs and on the Grand Ridge Trail (just on the other side of I-90 from
> Tiger) to name a few. I also LOVE to ride my MTB on some fun, twisty, fast
> single track (a Trek hard tail) at Duthie Mountain Bike Park (at the north
> end of the Grand Ridge Trail). I also thru hiked in 2006.
> > >
> > >
> > > My first hand observations: The trails at Duthie are maintained
> constantly by the Evergreen Mountain Bike Alliance. They're also in poor
> condition due to the heavy MTB traffic. There are ruts and mud holes all
> over the place. Drainage structures are constantly destroyed as the bikers
> ride in a narrow (preferred) line, causing deep cuts in the ground that
> throw up a berm, blocking the drainage's. Skidding in turns and high
> pressure tires (relative to the ground pressure of hiker feet) cause linear
> ruts to form in all but the most hardened tread (read that as armored with
> gravel), causing water to channel ALONG the tread, instead of the proper
> drainage ACROSS the tread, promoting erosion. Feet and hooves, when they
> make impressions in soft tread make point impressions, not channel features
> like wheels.
> > >
> > >
> > > The same observed damage applies on the Grand Ridge trail - this trail
> would be a model of what would happen to the PCT here in Washington were
> bikes to be allowed. This trail is a multi use trail - I love to ride it
> from Tiger to Duthie, do some laps there and return - it's a great work
> out. The trouble is that the tread on the Grand Ridge trail shows the wear
> and tear of the bikers - again, mud holes caused by narrow lines that the
> MTBers take, or tread that widens out where they can go around their mud
> holes they cause. Drainage is blocked by the deep cuts from MTB tracks
> throwing up berms. Linear cuts in the trail that channel water along the
> trail, promoting erosion. Also, the MTB focused members on the WTA and
> Evergreen crews have built up the turns to be MTB friendly, NOT hiker and
> horse friendly - super elevation on a switch back is nice when you're
> bombing down a hill on the bike - it sucks when you're on foot (not to
> mention that it
> > > causes drainage problems). Care to guess how long it would take the
> PCT to look like a MTB race track instead of a hiker trail were they to get
> their claws into it?
> > >
> > >
> > > Most of the trails at Tiger mountain have to be closed to bikes from
> > > October to April else the erosion problems would be far worse than they
> > > already are. Also, very few people hike on the open to MTB trails -
> they suck to hike on with the bikes coming by - the bikes drive away the
> other users.
> > >
> > >
> > > Here in Washington, the non wet season that the PCT isn't
> > > under snow is......well, if you're lucky, August to early September.
> Open the PCT here to bikes and it'll be rutted mess in no time flat.
> > >
> > >
> > > As to Wilderness: If the PCT is open, bikes WILL intrude into the
> Wilderness, period. Statements to the contrary are either pure naivety or
> lies (deliberate falsehoods with the intent to deceive). I saw the tracks
> of a flipping MTBer in Oregon on my thru hike - up the PCT for several
> miles then blow right on by the sign and on into the Wilderness where I
> followed them for miles more. MTB organizations advocate for the opening of
> Wilderness to bikes - I'll leave it to the readers to find their position
> statements attesting to this fact themselves.
> > >
> > > As to comparative statements of horse damage and bike damage: So what?
> Bikes bring zero TO the trail, unlike horses. Do hooves do more damage than
> feet? Yup. Do hooves ENABLE the trail to stay open and maintained in the
> back country? Absolutely. Bikes can't pack in the gear to support a trail
> crew dozens of miles deep into the Wilderness. Horses can and do. Just
> based on utility alone - lets see....bikes do damage and don't bring any
> particular help (as a machine) in maintaining the trail....hooves do
> damage, yet are critical assets to maintaining the trail, hence are a net
> positive....hmmmm....yup, hooves win, bikes loose that argument.
> > >
> > >
> > > MTB's on the PCT? Over my dead body. It's an incompatible use with
> hikers and equestrians plus I've worked too many hours on the trail these
> last several years to see it destroyed.
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