[pct-l] ice axe length

Mon Jan 31 12:12:06 CST 2011

Tip of the hat to ya, Chuck,

I appreciate what you are saying, particularly with regards to the huge variation of approaches to hiking this trail.

However, in fairness, there are many people who do not have a lot of mountaineering experience, who look at this thread, and make decisions.....that they may have to live with for quite some time in the snow.

Understanding that, I think it is great to post about variations of ways to do things, but when one moves into the realm of lifesaving equipment, when one is suggesting an unconventional approach, it would be wise to *identify* it as such.  Particularly when one suggests a significant departure, I think there is an obligation to explain the "how" of it.....much as you suggest for Jardine.

For example, in using an ice axe, probably 99% of the time, an axe is used for a self-belay, which provides tremendous safety against a slip.  This is routine, simple use-not particularly technical, not very difficult to learn or use.  An ice axe arrest, however, is more of a "hail mary" type of a maneuver, which really deserves practice.  That all being said, I was astonished that you would dismiss the most common use of the axe as non-existent (only done with a rope), and not even mention the "how" of using technical ice tools for arrest, something for which, that in contrast to an axe, they are not designed.  

In looking at your links, you mention that you've only experienced three arrests, and it sounds like you had no axe at all for those.

I dunno.  Everyone looks at things differently.  Personally, when someone mentions a new technique or approach, and advocates that people use it, I've always been of the opinion that they deserve rapt attention.....if they have actually done it, themselves.  Your mileage may differ.

I also note in your link, that you use a 2nd edition of Mountaineering: The Freedom of the Hills.  The current edition is the 8th edition.  They have changed, in the last edition, their recommendation on ice axe length, which they now recommend as 70cm for everyone.  Might be best to be "up" on the latest, before making recommendations to others.

Obviously, there is a lot of room for disagreement.

----- Original Message -----
From: "CHUCK CHELIN" <steeleye at wildblue.net>
To: "Ken Murray" <kmurray at pol.net>
Cc: pct-l at backcountry.net
Sent: Monday, January 31, 2011 8:25:26 AM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific
Subject: Re: [pct-l] ice axe length

Good morning, Ken, 

Thanks for your comments, but I’m pretty well up-to-speed on mountaineering tools, equipment, and methods:   I've read the books, been there, done that, got the tee-shirt.   I think it’s good to have discussions of hiking methods and equipment, particularly when there may not be consensus.   I reserve the right to challenge any/all conventional wisdom, and I accept that others will challenge my views on their way to making informed and well-reasoned decisions for themselves 

Long-distance hiking is replete with examples where conventional wisdom turned out to be baloney:   Pack frames were said to be necessary to carry tremendous loads, so I don’t carry tremendous loads.   It was accepted that serious hikers need sturdy waffle-stomper boots, but now almost everyone wears sneakers.   We discuss what stove and tent is best, but I don’t see the need for either.   Every year there’s a long thread about socks, and I’ve tried everything from two pairs of heavies, to wearing no socks at all through 300 miles of Washington, and everything seems to work – more or less.   If we had been hiking several generations ago most would agree that it would be crazy to go into the wilderness without a gun; and the discussion would then be do I have to carry a 9-pound rifle or can I get by with just a large-bore handgun.   Sometime, someone had to the first to stand up and say, “Baloney, I don’t need any gun”. 

When I discuss a topic on PCT-L I try to favor readers with some kind of an explanation for my beliefs.   If I don’t have a good reason – maybe just because of personal preference – I’ll state that as well.  One aggravation I have is when I can’t see the logic behind other peoples’ methods and recommendations.   For example, in Jardine’s landmark book he recommends a thru-hiker should carry an ice axe the entire three-state distance, but he offers no explanation as to why.   Help me out here, Ray, why would I possibly want to do that?   It makes no sense to me unless he really wants a weapon rather than an ice axe. 

Relative to the current issue of ice axe usage I’ll refer to some of my previous discussions at: http://mailman.backcountry.net/pipermail/pct-l/2010-November/042486.html and http://www.trailjournals.com/entry.cfm?id=264671 but I’m only talking for myself -- I’m not marketing or promoting anything. 

PCT hiking is not alpine mountaineering; it is mostly just trail walking – occasionally over snowpack.   The grades are only moderate.   Unless one is at the very leading edge of the pack there are abundant tracks in the snowpack to follow and step in.   Most hikers don’t carry an ice axe and they get along just fine.   More valuable in my opinion are traction aids like MicroSpikes or instep crampons. 

Enjoy your planning, 

Steel-Eye 

Hiking the Pct since before it was the PCT – 1965 

http://www.trailjournals.com/steel-eye 

http://www.trailjournals.com/SteelEye09 

On Sun, Jan 30, 2011 at 11:04 AM, Ken Murray < kmurray at pol.net > wrote: 

Good Afternoon, Steel-Eye. 

Now, I know you've been hiking the PCT since before there was dirt, but you apparently 
don't realize that the standard term for using an axe to PREVENT a fall, by planting 
the shaft, is referred to as "self belay", often shortened to "belay". 
This technique does not involve a rope, 
but is the standard technique for travel across an inclined snowfield.  It is very 
well described in "Mountaineering:The Freedom of the Hills". 

Also, you may not be familiar with what are called technical ice tools, designed 
for climbing VERTICALLY.  These have VERY short handles, as they are designed to be used 
in one hand (generally in pairs).  You cannot do a standard self-arrest with these tools, 
as you cannot take the two handed grip across the trunk of the body, because the shaft is 
too short. (typically less than 1/2 the length of a regular axe). 

This is the extreme of the "short" handle axe, but some people, in a drive to be as light 
as possible, may think that this is a viable option.  It is not, as you can neither arrest 
nor belay with them. 

I'm sure you didn't mean to confuse anyone. 

"Good afternoon, 

Belaying, with or without an ice axe, is something done with climbing ropes; 
and climbing ropes are very rarely seen on the trail and even more rarely 
needed.  Saying self-arrest can’t be performed with a short ice axe is just 
plain silly. 

Steel-Eye" 

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