[pct-l] Rx Vytorin

Eric johner27 at evergreen.edu
Sun Feb 20 03:23:24 CST 2011 

Don't have much time, but here's a few points.

Agree that western diet + pharmaceuticals is the problem and FDA is BS.
 However, The China Study (which I have read) is vegan propaganda and
biased; also, there has never been a completely vegan society.  Downside to
a vegan diet: environmental costs, lack of cholesterol (we produce it
naturally, it's NECESSARY) and huge amount of food intake necessary to
obtain daily calories.

Will send link on China study when I have more time.

Regards,
Eric

On Thu, Feb 17, 2011 at 7:19 PM, <treerings at gmail.com> wrote:

> Hello Sym and Eric,
>
> I'll argue till the cows come home for a vegan diet. If you're interested,
> the China Study is a book documenting the detrimental health effects of the
> western diet (read high in meat and dairy). Major societies closest to
> veganism include India, rural China, most of Sub Saharan Africa etc.
> Societies farthest from veganism include the US, Northern Europe etc. Which
> societies do you think have the highest rates of obesity, cardiovascular
> diseases, cancers, etc?
>
> In my opinion there is no down side to the vegan diet--it
> offers significantly improved individual health and stamina, improved
> ecological health, and an alternative to the madness and inhumanity of the
> factory farm. The FDA food "pyramid" is propaganda resulting from the
> long-standing powerful meat/dairy industry lobby. The major nutritional
> difference between a vegan and traditional western diet is simply the
> complete absence of cholesterol and a very high fiber content in veganism.
> My wife and I went vegan two years ago and never turned back. And it's been
> especially great for my hiking--my body is lighter and stronger. Anyway,
> this all started with Amanda's post about cholesterol. I sincerely hope she
> solves that problem. I just see pharmaceuticals too often as the
> "downstream" response and doctors are FAR too quick to prescribe drugs to
> mitigate symptoms, after there is a problem. Best to go after it proactively
> "upstream," and I'm sure we agree the first place to look is at what we're
> putting in our bodies and our activity levels.
>
> Bruce
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Thu, Feb 17, 2011 at 3:38 PM, Eric <johner27 at evergreen.edu> wrote:
>
>> Actually the second article was Mr. Pollan, who I agree is a great man.
>> This
>> article is actually written by Dr.Chris Masterjohn.  If you read the whole
>> article, you'll see that it is only saturated fats that have been
>> processed
>> that are linked to cholesterol in the blood - natural saturated fats cause
>> no damage.  Another good resource is Gary Taubes' Good Calories, Bad
>> Calories, if you're interested.
>>
>> So, like you said: some (natural) saturated fat is healthy, but processed
>> saturated fat may not be.
>>
>> But the lipid hypothesis is bunk. :)
>>
>> A great discussion indeed!
>>
>> Regards,
>> Eric
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Feb 17, 2011 at 3:21 PM, Sym Blanchard <symbiosis222 at gmail.com
>> >wrote:
>>
>> > Eric,
>> >
>> > In your linked article <
>> >
>> http://www.cholesterol-and-health.com/Does-Cholesterol-Cause-Heart-Disease-Myth.html#conclusion>
>> Michael
>> > Pollan (my hero) states : "There is a link between saturated fat and
>> > cholesterol in the blood. There is a link between cholesterol in the
>> blood
>> > and heart disease. But the proof that saturated fat leads to heart
>> disease
>> > in a causal way is very tenuous."
>> >
>> > That is a long way from your statement that "Lipid hypotheis
>> definitively
>> > disproven".
>> >
>> > As I said, the research continues...  perhaps some saturated fat is
>> heathly
>> > and some is not.  We will see.
>> >
>> > Good discussion!
>> >
>> > Thanks,
>> > Sym
>> > On Thu, Feb 17, 2011 at 3:06 PM, Eric <johner27 at evergreen.edu> wrote:
>> >
>> >> Sym,
>> >>
>> >> Lipid hypotheis definitively disproven:
>> >>
>> http://www.cholesterol-and-health.com/Does-Cholesterol-Cause-Heart-Disease-Myth.html#conclusion
>> >> http://michaelpollan.com/interviews/michael-pollan-debunks-food-myths/
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> I definitely agree about the impact CAFO animals have as well as the
>> cruel
>> >> treatment they get; it's not a good thing.  I don't see veganism as a
>> >> healthy diet as there has never been a vegan culture in the world.
>> >>
>> >> I'd give cat a try. Maybe not dog. But yes, we all draw the line
>> >> somewhere.
>> >>
>> >> Regards,
>> >> Eric
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> On Thu, Feb 17, 2011 at 2:53 PM, Sym Blanchard <symbiosis222 at gmail.com
>> >wrote:
>> >>
>> >>> Eric,
>> >>>
>> >>> I agree with most of what you say.
>> >>>
>> >>> Per my statement below: "while eating saturated fats is most likely
>> >>> bad",  I never said it has been absolutely proven (like trans-fats).
>>  At one
>> >>> time, this was a slam dunk, but I totally agree that it is now in
>> question.
>> >>> However, there is still a lot of circumstantial evidence that certain
>> types
>> >>> of saturated fat increase the probability of heart disease.  The
>> research
>> >>> continues...
>> >>>
>> >>> While it is more difficult to get all your protein, vitamins, and
>> >>> minerals by going totally vegan (especially in our culture), it is
>> very
>> >>> possible.  The "hassle" factor is one reason that I also eat fish,
>> dairy,
>> >>> and eggs.
>> >>>
>> >>>  There are a lot of other reasons for not eating animal products
>> besides
>> >>> our personal health:  environmental impacts (the amount of water
>> required
>> >>> and hiking trails  torn up from cattle, increased methane in the
>> atmosphere,
>> >>> increase use of antibiotics, etc.) as well as the cruel treatment we
>> often
>> >>> give to the poor animals whom we eat and make use of their bodies.
>> >>>
>> >>> I think we all gotta draw the line somewhere.  I choose my line and
>> you
>> >>> choose yours.  I imagine that you do not eat cats or dogs.  Why not?
>>  Many
>> >>> people do.  It is kind of an arbitrary decision...
>> >>>
>> >>> Sym
>> >>>
>> >>> On Thu, Feb 17, 2011 at 2:11 PM, Eric <johner27 at evergreen.edu> wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>>> Sorry to bust your bubble, but the lipid hypothesis is false. There
>> is
>> >>>> no correlation between increased intake in saturated fat and
>> increased
>> >>>> cholesterol.  However, you hit the nail on the head with the bad
>> veggie
>> >>>> foods, which is what many vegetarians and vegans subsist on, sadly.
>> These
>> >>>> foods, along with other grains and compounded with the chemicals such
>> as MSG
>> >>>> in processed foods, are the real culprit in cholesterol levels,
>> obesity, and
>> >>>> type 2 diabetes that is so prevalent nowadays.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Going vegetarian and eating REAL FOOD is a good way to reduce
>> >>>> cholesterol, but you're losing a huge range of vitamins and minerals
>> offered
>> >>>> by animal meats.  Organ meats are in face the most nutrient dense,
>> and as
>> >>>> you said, grass-fed and open range organic animals are the way to go.
>> >>>> Combining these healthy sources of protein with vegetables, nuts,
>> seeds,
>> >>>> dairy (if you can process it) and some fruits and berries seems to be
>> the
>> >>>> best way to go; why lose a whole food group?
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Fat calories are generally not a problem when consumed with protein,
>> as
>> >>>> the combination of these two leads to sustained satiety.  Other than
>> that, I
>> >>>> agree completely with you :) Basic idea: eat REAL food!
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Regards,
>> >>>> Eric
>> >>>>
>> >>>>   On Thu, Feb 17, 2011 at 1:31 PM, Sym Blanchard <
>> >>>> symbiosis222 at gmail.com> wrote:
>> >>>>
>> >>>>>  Yoshi,
>> >>>>> I believe the study you referenced which showed that some vegetarian
>> >>>>> foods raised the bad LDL cholesterol was based on people eating a
>> lot
>> >>>>> of bad
>> >>>>> vegetarian foods, such as potato chips, french fries, white rice,
>> white
>> >>>>> flour, sugar, candy, deep fried vegetables, cake, hydrogenized
>> >>>>> vegetable
>> >>>>> oils, soft drinks, etc.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Eating good vegetarian foods such as whole fresh fruit, vegetables,
>> >>>>> nuts,
>> >>>>> seeds, legumes, and whole grains have consistently shown to lower
>> bad
>> >>>>> LDL
>> >>>>> cholesterol and raise good HDL cholesterol.  Choosing foods to get a
>> >>>>> good
>> >>>>> ratio between Omega 3 fatty acids and Omega 6 fatty acids will also
>> >>>>> have a
>> >>>>> good affect.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> I agree that many animal foods, such as fish, shrimp, squid, eel,
>> etc.
>> >>>>> have
>> >>>>> lots of Omega 3 fatty acids and will help cholesterol levels.  And
>> >>>>> although
>> >>>>> I don't eat any land animals, I understand that wild game and some
>> cuts
>> >>>>> of
>> >>>>> appropriately raised land animals can be good as well (grass fed,
>> >>>>> open-range, non-steroidal, etc.).
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> I don't think the amount of the good fat is a problem, except that
>> fat
>> >>>>> is
>> >>>>> high in calories and so must be balanced with other foods and
>> exercise.
>> >>>>> Studies have shown that eating lots of mono and poly-unsaturated
>> fats
>> >>>>> is
>> >>>>> generally good, while eating saturated fats is most likely bad (but
>> >>>>> there is
>> >>>>> still controversy, especially with medium-chain saturated fats like
>> >>>>> coconut
>> >>>>> oil), and trans-fat is definitely bad.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> But eating bad animal foods, such as hamburgers, hot dogs, deli
>> meats,
>> >>>>> prime
>> >>>>> rib, Chicken McNuggets, etc. usually have lots of saturated fats,
>> which
>> >>>>> causes the body to create the bad LDL cholesterol.  It is my
>> >>>>> understanding
>> >>>>> that our cholesterol levels come 80% from our own bodies and 20%
>> from
>> >>>>> outside sources.  So it is better to minimize eating bad fats, which
>> >>>>> come
>> >>>>> mainly from land animals.  Even though eggs have lots of
>> cholesterol, I
>> >>>>> think they are still very healthy because they result in very little
>> >>>>> affect
>> >>>>> on cholesterol levels.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> I totally agree with you that the use of Statins only lowers the bad
>> >>>>> LDL
>> >>>>> cholesterol and overall cholesterol, but has not been shown to have
>> a
>> >>>>> good effect on heart disease.   A relationship between the good HDL
>> >>>>> cholesterol and the total cholesterol/HDL ratio of less than 3 has
>> been
>> >>>>> shown to have a very positive effect.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> So Melinda's outstandingly great HDL cholesterol of 80 (I am
>> impressed)
>> >>>>> gives her a great cholesterol ratio. I am very proud of my 66 HDL
>> and a
>> >>>>> total cholesterol 139.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> I think it is so important to eat whole natural foods, do cardio
>> >>>>> exercise,
>> >>>>> lift weights, get enough sleep, manage stress, avoid environmental
>> >>>>> toxins,
>> >>>>> indulge in CHD, and try to miminize the "quick-fix" medicines that
>> we
>> >>>>> are
>> >>>>> constantly being fed because so few people want to do the right
>> things
>> >>>>> to
>> >>>>> begin with.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Just not part of our American culture...yet.  Hopefully we pick up
>> some
>> >>>>> of
>> >>>>> the habits of your Okinawan bretheren.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Just my 2 cents.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Symbioisis
>> >>>>> ------------------------------
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Message: 23
>> >>>>> Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2011 12:53:28 +0900
>> >>>>> From: Yoshihiro Murakami <completewalker at gmail.com>
>> >>>>> Subject: Re: [pct-l] Rx Vytorin
>> >>>>> To: Melanie Clarke <melaniekclarke at gmail.com>
>> >>>>> Cc: pct-l at backcountry.net, Amanda L Silvestri <aslive at sbcglobal.net
>> >
>> >>>>> Message-ID:
>> >>>>>       <AANLkTikBGkQ7UiOa3-adMRE5Ve6H3=HUTYW9-t+piwr6 at mail.gmail.com
>> >
>> >>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Dear Amanda
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> This topic is difficult for me, there are many technical terms and
>> >>>>> great disputes concerning the cholesterol. I will write very
>> briefly,
>> >>>>> because I have enough time now.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> In Japan, there is a great dispute among doctors. I got a guideline
>> of
>> >>>>> cholesterol control for longevity. But I cannot translate properly
>> >>>>> into English. I will try to translate very small parts from the
>> >>>>> guideline.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> According to the recent findings( from 2006 ), Statin (control drug
>> )
>> >>>>> decreases LDL cholesterol, but it has no effect to  cardiovascular
>> >>>>> disease, and no effect to longevity. Then, the great dispute arise.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> The food intake of vegetable fat in place of  animal fat proved to
>> >>>>> increase the risk of cardiovascular disease, cancer, and  sudden
>> >>>>> death. Dear Melanie, you need not avoid animal fat, of course you
>> need
>> >>>>> pay attention to the total amount of fat. Lesser is better.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> The hypothesis of HDL-C and LDL-C in not supported by recent
>> findings.
>> >>>>> In the general population, death rate of high LDL-C group is lower
>> >>>>> than low LDL-C group. The guideline stated that this hypothesis is
>> not
>> >>>>> recommended to use.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> To prevent the cardiovascular disease, fish fat ( EPA ) proved to be
>> >>>>> effective. So, Melanie, eat fish sometime. I eat one in a week.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> In Japan, margarine is a product from vegetable oil, but margarine
>> is
>> >>>>> proved to increase the risk of kidney trouble and cancer. So,
>> >>>>> margarine is not recommended.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> The guideline recommended the control technique of food to  the
>> total
>> >>>>> cholesterol ( 280mm/dL) group and to LDL-C( 180 mg/dL ) group.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Amanda, at least, you need second opinion.
>> >>>>> My recommendation is almost the same with Melanie. Avoid medication,
>> >>>>> Eat lesser fat, but need not to be a vegetarian. And do physical
>> >>>>> exercise regularly. Control your weight.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> No time now. bye.
>> >>>>> ___________________________________________________
>> >>>>> 2011/2/17 Melanie Clarke <melaniekclarke at gmail.com>:
>> >>>>> > Dear Amanda,
>> >>>>> >
>> >>>>> > My cholesterol was 230 so I only ate chicken or fish. ?When I went
>> >>>>> back a
>> >>>>> > year later it was 235. ?Then I became vegetarian but I did not eat
>> >>>>> any
>> >>>>> > cheese or animal fat of any kind. ?That means I could only drink
>> non
>> >>>>> fat
>> >>>>> > milk and eat non fat yogurt and cottage cheese. ?It worked. ?I
>> >>>>> lowered
>> >>>>> my
>> >>>>> > cholesterol to 170. ?My "good" cholesterol was always high, 80 so
>> 170
>> >>>>> is a
>> >>>>> > very good total for me.
>> >>>>> >
>> >>>>> > Consider managing your cholesterol by being vegetarian with non
>> fat
>> >>>>> milk
>> >>>>> > products and only the egg whites. ?We are active and exercise so
>> it
>> >>>>> should
>> >>>>> > work for you.
>> >>>>> >
>> >>>>> > Melanie
>> >>>>> >
>> >>>>> > On Wed, Feb 16, 2011 at 4:42 PM, Amanda L Silvestri
>> >>>>> <aslive at sbcglobal.net>wrote:
>> >>>>> >
>> >>>>> >> ?My doctor is think of putting me on Vytorin for cholesterol
>> control
>> >>>>>    but
>> >>>>> >> said that a possible side effect could be muscle weakness. ?I am
>> 59
>> >>>>> years
>> >>>>> >> old and hiking to Canada this summer. ?I am concerned about
>> muscle
>> >>>>> >> weakness. ?I know you can't give out medical advice over the
>> >>>>> Internet
>> >>>>> and
>> >>>>> >> without seeing my blood work, but I would like to know if anyone
>> has
>> >>>>> >> experienced muscle weakness on Vytorin.
>> >>>>> >>
>> >>>>> >> Shepherd
>> >>>>> _______________________________________________
>> >>>>> Pct-L mailing list
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>> >>>>>
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>> >>>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>> --
>> >>>> Because we don't think about future generations, they will never
>> forget
>> >>>> us.  ~Henrik Tikkanen
>> >>>>
>> >>>> “The things you own end up owning you.”* -*Tyler Durden, *Fight Club*
>> >>>>
>> >>>> "The three most harmful addictions are heroin, carbohydrates, and a
>> >>>> monthly salary."—David Hieatt
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> --
>> >> Because we don't think about future generations, they will never forget
>> >> us.  ~Henrik Tikkanen
>> >>
>> >> “The things you own end up owning you.”* -*Tyler Durden, *Fight Club*
>> >>
>> >> "The three most harmful addictions are heroin, carbohydrates, and a
>> >> monthly salary."—David Hieatt
>> >>
>> >>
>> >
>>
>>
>> --
>> Because we don't think about future generations, they will never forget
>> us.
>> ~Henrik Tikkanen
>>
>> “The things you own end up owning you.”* -*Tyler Durden, *Fight Club*
>>
>> "The three most harmful addictions are heroin, carbohydrates, and a
>> monthly
>> salary."—David Hieatt
>> _______________________________________________
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>
>


-- 
Because we don't think about future generations, they will never forget us.
~Henrik Tikkanen

“The things you own end up owning you.”* -*Tyler Durden, *Fight Club*

"The three most harmful addictions are heroin, carbohydrates, and a monthly
salary."—David Hieatt

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