[pct-l] Rx Vytorin

Thu Feb 17 21:19:17 CST 2011

Hello Sym and Eric,

I'll argue till the cows come home for a vegan diet. If you're interested,
the China Study is a book documenting the detrimental health effects of the
western diet (read high in meat and dairy). Major societies closest to
veganism include India, rural China, most of Sub Saharan Africa etc.
Societies farthest from veganism include the US, Northern Europe etc. Which
societies do you think have the highest rates of obesity, cardiovascular
diseases, cancers, etc?

In my opinion there is no down side to the vegan diet--it
offers significantly improved individual health and stamina, improved
ecological health, and an alternative to the madness and inhumanity of the
factory farm. The FDA food "pyramid" is propaganda resulting from the
long-standing powerful meat/dairy industry lobby. The major nutritional
difference between a vegan and traditional western diet is simply the
complete absence of cholesterol and a very high fiber content in veganism.
My wife and I went vegan two years ago and never turned back. And it's been
especially great for my hiking--my body is lighter and stronger. Anyway,
this all started with Amanda's post about cholesterol. I sincerely hope she
solves that problem. I just see pharmaceuticals too often as the
"downstream" response and doctors are FAR too quick to prescribe drugs to
mitigate symptoms, after there is a problem. Best to go after it proactively
"upstream," and I'm sure we agree the first place to look is at what we're
putting in our bodies and our activity levels.

Bruce

On Thu, Feb 17, 2011 at 3:38 PM, Eric <johner27 at evergreen.edu> wrote:

> Actually the second article was Mr. Pollan, who I agree is a great man.
> This
> article is actually written by Dr.Chris Masterjohn.  If you read the whole
> article, you'll see that it is only saturated fats that have been processed
> that are linked to cholesterol in the blood - natural saturated fats cause
> no damage.  Another good resource is Gary Taubes' Good Calories, Bad
> Calories, if you're interested.
>
> So, like you said: some (natural) saturated fat is healthy, but processed
> saturated fat may not be.
>
> But the lipid hypothesis is bunk. :)
>
> A great discussion indeed!
>
> Regards,
> Eric
>
>
> On Thu, Feb 17, 2011 at 3:21 PM, Sym Blanchard <symbiosis222 at gmail.com
> >wrote:
>
> > Eric,
> >
> > In your linked article <
> >
> http://www.cholesterol-and-health.com/Does-Cholesterol-Cause-Heart-Disease-Myth.html#conclusion>
> Michael
> > Pollan (my hero) states : "There is a link between saturated fat and
> > cholesterol in the blood. There is a link between cholesterol in the
> blood
> > and heart disease. But the proof that saturated fat leads to heart
> disease
> > in a causal way is very tenuous."
> >
> > That is a long way from your statement that "Lipid hypotheis definitively
> > disproven".
> >
> > As I said, the research continues...  perhaps some saturated fat is
> heathly
> > and some is not.  We will see.
> >
> > Good discussion!
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Sym
> > On Thu, Feb 17, 2011 at 3:06 PM, Eric <johner27 at evergreen.edu> wrote:
> >
> >> Sym,
> >>
> >> Lipid hypotheis definitively disproven:
> >>
> http://www.cholesterol-and-health.com/Does-Cholesterol-Cause-Heart-Disease-Myth.html#conclusion
> >> http://michaelpollan.com/interviews/michael-pollan-debunks-food-myths/
> >>
> >>
> >> I definitely agree about the impact CAFO animals have as well as the
> cruel
> >> treatment they get; it's not a good thing.  I don't see veganism as a
> >> healthy diet as there has never been a vegan culture in the world.
> >>
> >> I'd give cat a try. Maybe not dog. But yes, we all draw the line
> >> somewhere.
> >>
> >> Regards,
> >> Eric
> >>
> >>
> >> On Thu, Feb 17, 2011 at 2:53 PM, Sym Blanchard <symbiosis222 at gmail.com
> >wrote:
> >>
> >>> Eric,
> >>>
> >>> I agree with most of what you say.
> >>>
> >>> Per my statement below: "while eating saturated fats is most likely
> >>> bad",  I never said it has been absolutely proven (like trans-fats).
>  At one
> >>> time, this was a slam dunk, but I totally agree that it is now in
> question.
> >>> However, there is still a lot of circumstantial evidence that certain
> types
> >>> of saturated fat increase the probability of heart disease.  The
> research
> >>> continues...
> >>>
> >>> While it is more difficult to get all your protein, vitamins, and
> >>> minerals by going totally vegan (especially in our culture), it is very
> >>> possible.  The "hassle" factor is one reason that I also eat fish,
> dairy,
> >>> and eggs.
> >>>
> >>>  There are a lot of other reasons for not eating animal products
> besides
> >>> our personal health:  environmental impacts (the amount of water
> required
> >>> and hiking trails  torn up from cattle, increased methane in the
> atmosphere,
> >>> increase use of antibiotics, etc.) as well as the cruel treatment we
> often
> >>> give to the poor animals whom we eat and make use of their bodies.
> >>>
> >>> I think we all gotta draw the line somewhere.  I choose my line and you
> >>> choose yours.  I imagine that you do not eat cats or dogs.  Why not?
>  Many
> >>> people do.  It is kind of an arbitrary decision...
> >>>
> >>> Sym
> >>>
> >>> On Thu, Feb 17, 2011 at 2:11 PM, Eric <johner27 at evergreen.edu> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> Sorry to bust your bubble, but the lipid hypothesis is false. There is
> >>>> no correlation between increased intake in saturated fat and increased
> >>>> cholesterol.  However, you hit the nail on the head with the bad
> veggie
> >>>> foods, which is what many vegetarians and vegans subsist on, sadly.
> These
> >>>> foods, along with other grains and compounded with the chemicals such
> as MSG
> >>>> in processed foods, are the real culprit in cholesterol levels,
> obesity, and
> >>>> type 2 diabetes that is so prevalent nowadays.
> >>>>
> >>>> Going vegetarian and eating REAL FOOD is a good way to reduce
> >>>> cholesterol, but you're losing a huge range of vitamins and minerals
> offered
> >>>> by animal meats.  Organ meats are in face the most nutrient dense, and
> as
> >>>> you said, grass-fed and open range organic animals are the way to go.
> >>>> Combining these healthy sources of protein with vegetables, nuts,
> seeds,
> >>>> dairy (if you can process it) and some fruits and berries seems to be
> the
> >>>> best way to go; why lose a whole food group?
> >>>>
> >>>> Fat calories are generally not a problem when consumed with protein,
> as
> >>>> the combination of these two leads to sustained satiety.  Other than
> that, I
> >>>> agree completely with you :) Basic idea: eat REAL food!
> >>>>
> >>>> Regards,
> >>>> Eric
> >>>>
> >>>>   On Thu, Feb 17, 2011 at 1:31 PM, Sym Blanchard <
> >>>> symbiosis222 at gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>>  Yoshi,
> >>>>> I believe the study you referenced which showed that some vegetarian
> >>>>> foods raised the bad LDL cholesterol was based on people eating a lot
> >>>>> of bad
> >>>>> vegetarian foods, such as potato chips, french fries, white rice,
> white
> >>>>> flour, sugar, candy, deep fried vegetables, cake, hydrogenized
> >>>>> vegetable
> >>>>> oils, soft drinks, etc.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Eating good vegetarian foods such as whole fresh fruit, vegetables,
> >>>>> nuts,
> >>>>> seeds, legumes, and whole grains have consistently shown to lower bad
> >>>>> LDL
> >>>>> cholesterol and raise good HDL cholesterol.  Choosing foods to get a
> >>>>> good
> >>>>> ratio between Omega 3 fatty acids and Omega 6 fatty acids will also
> >>>>> have a
> >>>>> good affect.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I agree that many animal foods, such as fish, shrimp, squid, eel,
> etc.
> >>>>> have
> >>>>> lots of Omega 3 fatty acids and will help cholesterol levels.  And
> >>>>> although
> >>>>> I don't eat any land animals, I understand that wild game and some
> cuts
> >>>>> of
> >>>>> appropriately raised land animals can be good as well (grass fed,
> >>>>> open-range, non-steroidal, etc.).
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I don't think the amount of the good fat is a problem, except that
> fat
> >>>>> is
> >>>>> high in calories and so must be balanced with other foods and
> exercise.
> >>>>> Studies have shown that eating lots of mono and poly-unsaturated fats
> >>>>> is
> >>>>> generally good, while eating saturated fats is most likely bad (but
> >>>>> there is
> >>>>> still controversy, especially with medium-chain saturated fats like
> >>>>> coconut
> >>>>> oil), and trans-fat is definitely bad.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> But eating bad animal foods, such as hamburgers, hot dogs, deli
> meats,
> >>>>> prime
> >>>>> rib, Chicken McNuggets, etc. usually have lots of saturated fats,
> which
> >>>>> causes the body to create the bad LDL cholesterol.  It is my
> >>>>> understanding
> >>>>> that our cholesterol levels come 80% from our own bodies and 20% from
> >>>>> outside sources.  So it is better to minimize eating bad fats, which
> >>>>> come
> >>>>> mainly from land animals.  Even though eggs have lots of cholesterol,
> I
> >>>>> think they are still very healthy because they result in very little
> >>>>> affect
> >>>>> on cholesterol levels.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I totally agree with you that the use of Statins only lowers the bad
> >>>>> LDL
> >>>>> cholesterol and overall cholesterol, but has not been shown to have a
> >>>>> good effect on heart disease.   A relationship between the good HDL
> >>>>> cholesterol and the total cholesterol/HDL ratio of less than 3 has
> been
> >>>>> shown to have a very positive effect.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> So Melinda's outstandingly great HDL cholesterol of 80 (I am
> impressed)
> >>>>> gives her a great cholesterol ratio. I am very proud of my 66 HDL and
> a
> >>>>> total cholesterol 139.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I think it is so important to eat whole natural foods, do cardio
> >>>>> exercise,
> >>>>> lift weights, get enough sleep, manage stress, avoid environmental
> >>>>> toxins,
> >>>>> indulge in CHD, and try to miminize the "quick-fix" medicines that we
> >>>>> are
> >>>>> constantly being fed because so few people want to do the right
> things
> >>>>> to
> >>>>> begin with.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Just not part of our American culture...yet.  Hopefully we pick up
> some
> >>>>> of
> >>>>> the habits of your Okinawan bretheren.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Just my 2 cents.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Symbioisis
> >>>>> ------------------------------
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Message: 23
> >>>>> Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2011 12:53:28 +0900
> >>>>> From: Yoshihiro Murakami <completewalker at gmail.com>
> >>>>> Subject: Re: [pct-l] Rx Vytorin
> >>>>> To: Melanie Clarke <melaniekclarke at gmail.com>
> >>>>> Cc: pct-l at backcountry.net, Amanda L Silvestri <aslive at sbcglobal.net>
> >>>>> Message-ID:
> >>>>>       <AANLkTikBGkQ7UiOa3-adMRE5Ve6H3=HUTYW9-t+piwr6 at mail.gmail.com>
> >>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Dear Amanda
> >>>>>
> >>>>> This topic is difficult for me, there are many technical terms and
> >>>>> great disputes concerning the cholesterol. I will write very briefly,
> >>>>> because I have enough time now.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> In Japan, there is a great dispute among doctors. I got a guideline
> of
> >>>>> cholesterol control for longevity. But I cannot translate properly
> >>>>> into English. I will try to translate very small parts from the
> >>>>> guideline.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> According to the recent findings( from 2006 ), Statin (control drug )
> >>>>> decreases LDL cholesterol, but it has no effect to  cardiovascular
> >>>>> disease, and no effect to longevity. Then, the great dispute arise.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> The food intake of vegetable fat in place of  animal fat proved to
> >>>>> increase the risk of cardiovascular disease, cancer, and  sudden
> >>>>> death. Dear Melanie, you need not avoid animal fat, of course you
> need
> >>>>> pay attention to the total amount of fat. Lesser is better.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> The hypothesis of HDL-C and LDL-C in not supported by recent
> findings.
> >>>>> In the general population, death rate of high LDL-C group is lower
> >>>>> than low LDL-C group. The guideline stated that this hypothesis is
> not
> >>>>> recommended to use.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> To prevent the cardiovascular disease, fish fat ( EPA ) proved to be
> >>>>> effective. So, Melanie, eat fish sometime. I eat one in a week.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> In Japan, margarine is a product from vegetable oil, but margarine is
> >>>>> proved to increase the risk of kidney trouble and cancer. So,
> >>>>> margarine is not recommended.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> The guideline recommended the control technique of food to  the total
> >>>>> cholesterol ( 280mm/dL) group and to LDL-C( 180 mg/dL ) group.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Amanda, at least, you need second opinion.
> >>>>> My recommendation is almost the same with Melanie. Avoid medication,
> >>>>> Eat lesser fat, but need not to be a vegetarian. And do physical
> >>>>> exercise regularly. Control your weight.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> No time now. bye.
> >>>>> ___________________________________________________
> >>>>> 2011/2/17 Melanie Clarke <melaniekclarke at gmail.com>:
> >>>>> > Dear Amanda,
> >>>>> >
> >>>>> > My cholesterol was 230 so I only ate chicken or fish. ?When I went
> >>>>> back a
> >>>>> > year later it was 235. ?Then I became vegetarian but I did not eat
> >>>>> any
> >>>>> > cheese or animal fat of any kind. ?That means I could only drink
> non
> >>>>> fat
> >>>>> > milk and eat non fat yogurt and cottage cheese. ?It worked. ?I
> >>>>> lowered
> >>>>> my
> >>>>> > cholesterol to 170. ?My "good" cholesterol was always high, 80 so
> 170
> >>>>> is a
> >>>>> > very good total for me.
> >>>>> >
> >>>>> > Consider managing your cholesterol by being vegetarian with non fat
> >>>>> milk
> >>>>> > products and only the egg whites. ?We are active and exercise so it
> >>>>> should
> >>>>> > work for you.
> >>>>> >
> >>>>> > Melanie
> >>>>> >
> >>>>> > On Wed, Feb 16, 2011 at 4:42 PM, Amanda L Silvestri
> >>>>> <aslive at sbcglobal.net>wrote:
> >>>>> >
> >>>>> >> ?My doctor is think of putting me on Vytorin for cholesterol
> control
> >>>>>    but
> >>>>> >> said that a possible side effect could be muscle weakness. ?I am
> 59
> >>>>> years
> >>>>> >> old and hiking to Canada this summer. ?I am concerned about muscle
> >>>>> >> weakness. ?I know you can't give out medical advice over the
> >>>>> Internet
> >>>>> and
> >>>>> >> without seeing my blood work, but I would like to know if anyone
> has
> >>>>> >> experienced muscle weakness on Vytorin.
> >>>>> >>
> >>>>> >> Shepherd
> >>>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>> Pct-L mailing list
> >>>>> Pct-L at backcountry.net
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> >>>>>
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> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> --
> >>>> Because we don't think about future generations, they will never
> forget
> >>>> us.  ~Henrik Tikkanen
> >>>>
> >>>> “The things you own end up owning you.”* -*Tyler Durden, *Fight Club*
> >>>>
> >>>> "The three most harmful addictions are heroin, carbohydrates, and a
> >>>> monthly salary."—David Hieatt
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> Because we don't think about future generations, they will never forget
> >> us.  ~Henrik Tikkanen
> >>
> >> “The things you own end up owning you.”* -*Tyler Durden, *Fight Club*
> >>
> >> "The three most harmful addictions are heroin, carbohydrates, and a
> >> monthly salary."—David Hieatt
> >>
> >>
> >
>
>
> --
> Because we don't think about future generations, they will never forget us.
> ~Henrik Tikkanen
>
> “The things you own end up owning you.”* -*Tyler Durden, *Fight Club*
>
> "The three most harmful addictions are heroin, carbohydrates, and a monthly
> salary."—David Hieatt
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