[pct-l] Pct-L Digest, Vol 48, Issue 19

Sat Dec 17 22:25:50 CST 2011

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Sent: Saturday, December 17, 2011 10:00 AM
To: pct-l at backcountry.net
Subject: Pct-L Digest, Vol 48, Issue 19

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Today's Topics:

   1. Re: horses (Edward Anderson)
   2. Re: horses (chiefcowboy at verizon.net)
   3. Re: seeking Special K- thanks! (Christy Georg)
   4. Re: horses (rob gratz)
   5. Fw: Re:  horses (Charles Williams)
   6. Re: Fw: Re:  horses (giniajim)
   7. Re: horses (Mike Yanasak)
   8. Re: horses (chiefcowboy at verizon.net)
   9. Re: Fw: Re: horses (rob gratz)
  10. Re: Fw: Re: horses (rob gratz)
  11. Fw: Re:  Fw: Re: horses (Charles Williams)
  12. Re: horses (Edward Anderson)
  13. More animal news to fuss about (Palomino)
  14. Re: Dogs on the trail (hiker97 at aol.com)
  15. Re: More animal news to fuss about (Ernie Castillo)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2011 15:15:38 -0800 (PST)
From: Edward Anderson <mendoridered at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [pct-l] horses
To: Mike Yanasak <amuddler2 at gmail.com>, "pct-l at backcountry.net"
<pct-l at backcountry.net>
Message-ID:
<1324077338.32235.YahooMailNeo at web111619.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8

You are obviously very?ignorant of the reality, that, were it not for horses 
and mules, there would not?BE a PCT for you to hike on. The trail that you 
are hiking on was probably, historically, a horse trail. Backpacking came 
later.?The creation and ongoing maintenance?of the trails is done by people 
(often volunteers)?who need horses and mules to carry the required equipment 
and materials. Question: When did you last volunteer to help? Do you just 
hike on the PCT?? If you do, you can't help but sometimes seeing others 
working on the trail. Notice that they have horses and mules tied nearby. 
That's how the tools,?equipment , materials and often also the food and 
water needed for the workers got there.
MendoRider-Hiker

________________________________
From: Mike Yanasak <amuddler2 at gmail.com>
To: shon mcganty <smcganty at yahoo.com>
Cc: "pct-l at backcountry.net" <pct-l at backcountry.net>
Sent: Friday, December 16, 2011 12:28 PM
Subject: Re: [pct-l] horses

I look upon horses and mules as a pox on the trails--especially during
hunting season.? I hike mostly in the N. Cascades of Washington.? Some
trails have become essentially ditches at least two feet deep (check out
the area between Reflection Lake and White Pass as well as the trail,
although not PCT, between Holden and Lyman Lake.? I have also seen horses
tied to bushes 15' from the edge of the lake while their owners were
fishing).

I weigh 183 lbs. (plus my pack) and I wear relatively soft-soled shoes.? My
impact on the trail in most situations is relatively minor.? Now consider
the average hunter:? They sit on their asses atop a horse weighing maybe
1,000 lbs., and they often have two other horses in tow (one to carry all
their incredibly extensive gear, and one to haul out the carcass of a deer
or bear(!!!) that they might bag.? Each of the horses have 4 *STEEL
SHOD*feet (that's a lotta weight--and a lotta hard feet).? 3,000 lbs.
and 12
feet!).? Is it maybe possible that one individual hunter might impact the
trail...oh, maybe 20 times more than I?? During hunting season (along about
September), most water sources are becoming somewhat scarce.? The horse
guys can haul in huge amounts of drinking water for themselves and then are
free to lead their stock to the tiny streams and seeps and allow them to
stand there drinking and urinating/crapping in the same water that I will
have to drink (check out the approved camping area at White Pass).
I have seen the Forest Service contractors frantically getting the trails
leading to the most popular hunting areas into shape in early September so
as to not inconvenience the hunters, and even stacking up firewood for
their use.? I don't know why.? When I mentioned this to a ranger, he
suggested I should write my congressman :-)

Horses are sort of like Mom and apple pie.? Inviolate, don't mess with
them.? And while I have sometimes envied the ability of horsemen to easily
travel such long distances in relative comfort, I don't think it's right.

Perhaps a very costly permit hanging from each horses tail would discourage
some of that overuse, while helping to pay for some of the mitigation...

Nader

On Fri, Dec 16, 2011 at 11:30 AM, shon mcganty <smcganty at yahoo.com> wrote:

> I'm so happy with the holiday season and my wonderful memories of the PCT,
> but thinking about the encounters I've had with horsemen and their effect
> on my wilderness exeriences will always get me down.
>
> Perhaps the horsemen on this list can correct any mis-information I have,
> and comments are welcome, but my general experience with horse riders has
> been largely negative.
>
> First, in my home state of Washington I'd guess the majority of horsemen
> are out there to hunt, or set up camps for the upcoming hunting season.
> Only a few are out there in the same manner as a hiker, that is the enjoy
> the wilderness as it is.? Horsemen, in my admittedly limited view, get out
> in the wood and try to change it to suit their needs and/or make it more
> like home.
>
> This includes building large small house-sized tarp camps, cutting down
> live trees to make structures and firewood, hauling up iron grills to 
> place
> over fires and leave them there, bring beer and carelessly discard them in
> the woods.
>
> I've had several times were I was treated bad by horsemen.? Almost broke
> out in a fight once.? I've gotten bad attitudes from them, and yes it feel
> like I'm looked down upon.? Once I over heard one talk about backpackers 
> as
> the enemy, we are what's wrong with the west, I recall him saying.? I'm
> making a guess that it's due to the lack of freedom they have in
> congress-designated wildernesses, where there are rules limiting group
> size, use of mechanized machines, ect.? They seem to look at backbackers
> has "liberals," with our desire for protection of the land and life being
> following by rules (from using life bait like frogs, limiting the number 
> of
> fish/game caught, or type of fish, or amound of land where trees can be
> harvested).
>
> Then there are times where a trail skirts the edge or goes through a
> meadow, and there are two or three sets of trail ruts.? If anyone knows 
> the
> answer as to if hikers play or role I'd love to know, but it's always 
> worse
> in areas frequented, not by hikers, but by horses.? The worst I've seen is
> six or seven parralel ruts, creating a 15 foot wide cut in the earth like 
> a
> three-lane jeep road, which looks horrible.? The two worse examples were 
> in
> Yosemite's valleys (crowed with both hikers and pack trains) and the
> central Pasayten Wilderness (remote area not heavily used by hikers but
> used lots by horsemen).? I'm just guessing it's not the hikers making 
> those
> (please correct me if I'm wrong here), but horses.? I know most hikers
> (I'll admit I do it sometimes) with skirt a wet trail to keep those feet
> dry, but why do horses do it?? I'm assuming there's a risk of a turned
> ankle because horses can't see under the water.? If that's the case, would
> the
>? horse be less likely to hurt an ankle if the horse lost 150+ lbs (ie. the
> rider got off)?
>
> I try to limit my frustration by saying the horsemen played a large role
> in creating these trails, and maintaining them, but I wonder about the
> accuracy of this sometimes.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Shon
> _______________________________________________
> Pct-L mailing list
> Pct-L at backcountry.net
> To unsubcribe, or change options visit:
> http://mailman.backcountry.net/mailman/listinfo/pct-l
>
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> Reproduction is is prohibited without express permission.
>

-- 
"I'll believe corporations are people when Texas executes one."
(anon.)
?The comfort of the rich depends upon an abundant supply of the poor."
(Voltaire)
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------------------------------

Message: 2
Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2011 15:43:21 -0800
From: <chiefcowboy at verizon.net>
Subject: Re: [pct-l] horses
To: "Edward Anderson" <mendoridered at yahoo.com>, "Mike Yanasak"
<amuddler2 at gmail.com>, <pct-l at backcountry.net>
Message-ID: <ACAB3C95054646089BF62F76A8E241F0 at RonPC>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=utf-8;
reply-type=original

Well said Ed.

-----Original Message----- 
From: Edward Anderson
Sent: Friday, December 16, 2011 3:15 PM
To: Mike Yanasak ; pct-l at backcountry.net
Subject: Re: [pct-l] horses

You are obviously very ignorant of the reality, that, were it not for horses
and mules, there would not BE a PCT for you to hike on. The trail that you
are hiking on was probably, historically, a horse trail. Backpacking came
later. The creation and ongoing maintenance of the trails is done by people
(often volunteers) who need horses and mules to carry the required equipment
and materials. Question: When did you last volunteer to help? Do you just
hike on the PCT?  If you do, you can't help but sometimes seeing others
working on the trail. Notice that they have horses and mules tied nearby.
That's how the tools, equipment , materials and often also the food and
water needed for the workers got there.
MendoRider-Hiker

________________________________
From: Mike Yanasak <amuddler2 at gmail.com>
To: shon mcganty <smcganty at yahoo.com>
Cc: "pct-l at backcountry.net" <pct-l at backcountry.net>
Sent: Friday, December 16, 2011 12:28 PM
Subject: Re: [pct-l] horses

I look upon horses and mules as a pox on the trails--especially during
hunting season.  I hike mostly in the N. Cascades of Washington.  Some
trails have become essentially ditches at least two feet deep (check out
the area between Reflection Lake and White Pass as well as the trail,
although not PCT, between Holden and Lyman Lake.  I have also seen horses
tied to bushes 15' from the edge of the lake while their owners were
fishing).

I weigh 183 lbs. (plus my pack) and I wear relatively soft-soled shoes.  My
impact on the trail in most situations is relatively minor.  Now consider
the average hunter:  They sit on their asses atop a horse weighing maybe
1,000 lbs., and they often have two other horses in tow (one to carry all
their incredibly extensive gear, and one to haul out the carcass of a deer
or bear(!!!) that they might bag.  Each of the horses have 4 *STEEL
SHOD*feet (that's a lotta weight--and a lotta hard feet).  3,000 lbs.
and 12
feet!).  Is it maybe possible that one individual hunter might impact the
trail...oh, maybe 20 times more than I?  During hunting season (along about
September), most water sources are becoming somewhat scarce.  The horse
guys can haul in huge amounts of drinking water for themselves and then are
free to lead their stock to the tiny streams and seeps and allow them to
stand there drinking and urinating/crapping in the same water that I will
have to drink (check out the approved camping area at White Pass).
I have seen the Forest Service contractors frantically getting the trails
leading to the most popular hunting areas into shape in early September so
as to not inconvenience the hunters, and even stacking up firewood for
their use.  I don't know why.  When I mentioned this to a ranger, he
suggested I should write my congressman :-)

Horses are sort of like Mom and apple pie.  Inviolate, don't mess with
them.  And while I have sometimes envied the ability of horsemen to easily
travel such long distances in relative comfort, I don't think it's right.

Perhaps a very costly permit hanging from each horses tail would discourage
some of that overuse, while helping to pay for some of the mitigation...

Nader

On Fri, Dec 16, 2011 at 11:30 AM, shon mcganty <smcganty at yahoo.com> wrote:

> I'm so happy with the holiday season and my wonderful memories of the PCT,
> but thinking about the encounters I've had with horsemen and their effect
> on my wilderness exeriences will always get me down.
>
> Perhaps the horsemen on this list can correct any mis-information I have,
> and comments are welcome, but my general experience with horse riders has
> been largely negative.
>
> First, in my home state of Washington I'd guess the majority of horsemen
> are out there to hunt, or set up camps for the upcoming hunting season.
> Only a few are out there in the same manner as a hiker, that is the enjoy
> the wilderness as it is.  Horsemen, in my admittedly limited view, get out
> in the wood and try to change it to suit their needs and/or make it more
> like home.
>
> This includes building large small house-sized tarp camps, cutting down
> live trees to make structures and firewood, hauling up iron grills to
> place
> over fires and leave them there, bring beer and carelessly discard them in
> the woods.
>
> I've had several times were I was treated bad by horsemen.  Almost broke
> out in a fight once.  I've gotten bad attitudes from them, and yes it feel
> like I'm looked down upon.  Once I over heard one talk about backpackers
> as
> the enemy, we are what's wrong with the west, I recall him saying.  I'm
> making a guess that it's due to the lack of freedom they have in
> congress-designated wildernesses, where there are rules limiting group
> size, use of mechanized machines, ect.  They seem to look at backbackers
> has "liberals," with our desire for protection of the land and life being
> following by rules (from using life bait like frogs, limiting the number
> of
> fish/game caught, or type of fish, or amound of land where trees can be
> harvested).
>
> Then there are times where a trail skirts the edge or goes through a
> meadow, and there are two or three sets of trail ruts.  If anyone knows
> the
> answer as to if hikers play or role I'd love to know, but it's always
> worse
> in areas frequented, not by hikers, but by horses.  The worst I've seen is
> six or seven parralel ruts, creating a 15 foot wide cut in the earth like
> a
> three-lane jeep road, which looks horrible.  The two worse examples were
> in
> Yosemite's valleys (crowed with both hikers and pack trains) and the
> central Pasayten Wilderness (remote area not heavily used by hikers but
> used lots by horsemen).  I'm just guessing it's not the hikers making
> those
> (please correct me if I'm wrong here), but horses.  I know most hikers
> (I'll admit I do it sometimes) with skirt a wet trail to keep those feet
> dry, but why do horses do it?  I'm assuming there's a risk of a turned
> ankle because horses can't see under the water.  If that's the case, would
> the
>  horse be less likely to hurt an ankle if the horse lost 150+ lbs (ie. the
> rider got off)?
>
> I try to limit my frustration by saying the horsemen played a large role
> in creating these trails, and maintaining them, but I wonder about the
> accuracy of this sometimes.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Shon
> _______________________________________________
> Pct-L mailing list
> Pct-L at backcountry.net
> To unsubcribe, or change options visit:
> http://mailman.backcountry.net/mailman/listinfo/pct-l
>
> List Archives:
> http://mailman.backcountry.net/pipermail/pct-l/
> All content is copyrighted by the respective authors.
> Reproduction is is prohibited without express permission.
>

-- 
"I'll believe corporations are people when Texas executes one."
(anon.)
?The comfort of the rich depends upon an abundant supply of the poor."
(Voltaire)
_______________________________________________
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Pct-L at backcountry.net
To unsubcribe, or change options visit:
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Reproduction is is prohibited without express permission.
_______________________________________________
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To unsubcribe, or change options visit:
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Reproduction is is prohibited without express permission.

------------------------------

Message: 3
Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2011 19:41:23 -0700
From: Christy Georg <christygeorg007 at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [pct-l] seeking Special K- thanks!
To: pct-l at backcountry.net
Message-ID: <22280738-3DAC-4BF5-9CB6-30A0366C8562 at gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1

Sweet,

Thanks for the info guys.  Postcards to Ben and Karen!
Idyllwild was super pivotal for me.  I had a flare-up of an old neck injury 
a few days before hitting Hwy 74 and the Paradise Cafe (of yumness).  I 
spent SIX days off trail in Idyllwild (let's hear it for the Idyllwild Inn!) 
recouperating in major pain with swollen discs pinching a nerve down my arm. 
Afterwards, I did the short 26 mi section from Devil's slide to hwy 74 
SoBo... to see how my body was doing, and have an ez return to rest in 
Idyllwild if need be.  All was well, and Karen picked up me and my friend 
Annie at the Paradise, joined us for fish tacos, and let us clean up and 
crash at her house.  She gave us a ride back from Kickoff too.

She also brought us our food drop at I-10 saving us tons of time and hitch 
hassle.  AND brought extra fruit, chocolate, and huge muffins.  And 
lemonade.  What a great lady.  My friend Annie and her chatted a lot.

cheers
Wandering Dot.
http://wanderingdot.wordpress.com

------------------------------

Message: 4
Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2011 19:52:13 -0800
From: rob gratz <hikergratz at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [pct-l] horses
To: chiefcowboy at verizon.net
Cc: pct-l at backcountry.net, Mike Yanasak <amuddler2 at gmail.com>
Message-ID:
<CAGAd3kF2_NSEftvKr--yDa5sLm=163P-w8B7cvjp-KZLz5-6Nw at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252

You are obviously very ignorant of the reality, that, were it not for
horses and mules, there would not BE a PCT for you to hike on. The
trail that you are hiking on was probably, historically, a horse
trail.

sorry ed your wrong. tradtional horse trails went east to west across
the ranges,not north and south.the only traditional horse trails i can
find were short segents to short lived mining operations.
here is the reality. the p.c.t. was origionaly envisioned as a hiking
trail,horseman wanted in on the action,so as a political compamise
they were allowed.
the truth is the p.c.t. could have been  constructed cheaper sooner
and on a better route unforntantly it had to be built to horse
standards.thats why nowadays we have to hike many extra
miles,ex.(fuller ridge to cabazon)or do road walks(seiad valley)

i did`nt really want to weigh in on this,but with a new crop of
horseman maybe i will get a honest answer.ive been on this list 12
years and almost every year ive posed this question to dozens of
horseman;

200 lb.hikers have to clean up after themselvesyou have to clean up
after your 50lb  dog. why do horseman  feel they don`t have to clean
up after their 800-1000lb animal .without minamizing the problem(it`s
not that bad,it`s just oats)without pointing out your good deeds(trail
work)why are horseman the only group exempt from leave no trace?

On 12/16/11, chiefcowboy at verizon.net <chiefcowboy at verizon.net> wrote:
> Well said Ed.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Edward Anderson
> Sent: Friday, December 16, 2011 3:15 PM
> To: Mike Yanasak ; pct-l at backcountry.net
> Subject: Re: [pct-l] horses
>
> You are obviously very ignorant of the reality, that, were it not for 
> horses
> and mules, there would not BE a PCT for you to hike on. The trail that you
> are hiking on was probably, historically, a horse trail. Backpacking came
> later. The creation and ongoing maintenance of the trails is done by 
> people
> (often volunteers) who need horses and mules to carry the required 
> equipment
> and materials. Question: When did you last volunteer to help? Do you just
> hike on the PCT?  If you do, you can't help but sometimes seeing others
> working on the trail. Notice that they have horses and mules tied nearby.
> That's how the tools, equipment , materials and often also the food and
> water needed for the workers got there.
> MendoRider-Hiker
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Mike Yanasak <amuddler2 at gmail.com>
> To: shon mcganty <smcganty at yahoo.com>
> Cc: "pct-l at backcountry.net" <pct-l at backcountry.net>
> Sent: Friday, December 16, 2011 12:28 PM
> Subject: Re: [pct-l] horses
>
> I look upon horses and mules as a pox on the trails--especially during
> hunting season.  I hike mostly in the N. Cascades of Washington.  Some
> trails have become essentially ditches at least two feet deep (check out
> the area between Reflection Lake and White Pass as well as the trail,
> although not PCT, between Holden and Lyman Lake.  I have also seen horses
> tied to bushes 15' from the edge of the lake while their owners were
> fishing).
>
> I weigh 183 lbs. (plus my pack) and I wear relatively soft-soled shoes. 
> My
> impact on the trail in most situations is relatively minor.  Now consider
> the average hunter:  They sit on their asses atop a horse weighing maybe
> 1,000 lbs., and they often have two other horses in tow (one to carry all
> their incredibly extensive gear, and one to haul out the carcass of a deer
> or bear(!!!) that they might bag.  Each of the horses have 4 *STEEL
> SHOD*feet (that's a lotta weight--and a lotta hard feet).  3,000 lbs.
> and 12
> feet!).  Is it maybe possible that one individual hunter might impact the
> trail...oh, maybe 20 times more than I?  During hunting season (along 
> about
> September), most water sources are becoming somewhat scarce.  The horse
> guys can haul in huge amounts of drinking water for themselves and then 
> are
> free to lead their stock to the tiny streams and seeps and allow them to
> stand there drinking and urinating/crapping in the same water that I will
> have to drink (check out the approved camping area at White Pass).
> I have seen the Forest Service contractors frantically getting the trails
> leading to the most popular hunting areas into shape in early September so
> as to not inconvenience the hunters, and even stacking up firewood for
> their use.  I don't know why.  When I mentioned this to a ranger, he
> suggested I should write my congressman :-)
>
> Horses are sort of like Mom and apple pie.  Inviolate, don't mess with
> them.  And while I have sometimes envied the ability of horsemen to easily
> travel such long distances in relative comfort, I don't think it's right.
>
> Perhaps a very costly permit hanging from each horses tail would 
> discourage
> some of that overuse, while helping to pay for some of the mitigation...
>
> Nader
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Fri, Dec 16, 2011 at 11:30 AM, shon mcganty <smcganty at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> I'm so happy with the holiday season and my wonderful memories of the 
>> PCT,
>> but thinking about the encounters I've had with horsemen and their effect
>> on my wilderness exeriences will always get me down.
>>
>> Perhaps the horsemen on this list can correct any mis-information I have,
>> and comments are welcome, but my general experience with horse riders has
>> been largely negative.
>>
>> First, in my home state of Washington I'd guess the majority of horsemen
>> are out there to hunt, or set up camps for the upcoming hunting season.
>> Only a few are out there in the same manner as a hiker, that is the enjoy
>> the wilderness as it is.  Horsemen, in my admittedly limited view, get 
>> out
>> in the wood and try to change it to suit their needs and/or make it more
>> like home.
>>
>> This includes building large small house-sized tarp camps, cutting down
>> live trees to make structures and firewood, hauling up iron grills to
>> place
>> over fires and leave them there, bring beer and carelessly discard them 
>> in
>> the woods.
>>
>> I've had several times were I was treated bad by horsemen.  Almost broke
>> out in a fight once.  I've gotten bad attitudes from them, and yes it 
>> feel
>> like I'm looked down upon.  Once I over heard one talk about backpackers
>> as
>> the enemy, we are what's wrong with the west, I recall him saying.  I'm
>> making a guess that it's due to the lack of freedom they have in
>> congress-designated wildernesses, where there are rules limiting group
>> size, use of mechanized machines, ect.  They seem to look at backbackers
>> has "liberals," with our desire for protection of the land and life being
>> following by rules (from using life bait like frogs, limiting the number
>> of
>> fish/game caught, or type of fish, or amound of land where trees can be
>> harvested).
>>
>> Then there are times where a trail skirts the edge or goes through a
>> meadow, and there are two or three sets of trail ruts.  If anyone knows
>> the
>> answer as to if hikers play or role I'd love to know, but it's always
>> worse
>> in areas frequented, not by hikers, but by horses.  The worst I've seen 
>> is
>> six or seven parralel ruts, creating a 15 foot wide cut in the earth like
>> a
>> three-lane jeep road, which looks horrible.  The two worse examples were
>> in
>> Yosemite's valleys (crowed with both hikers and pack trains) and the
>> central Pasayten Wilderness (remote area not heavily used by hikers but
>> used lots by horsemen).  I'm just guessing it's not the hikers making
>> those
>> (please correct me if I'm wrong here), but horses.  I know most hikers
>> (I'll admit I do it sometimes) with skirt a wet trail to keep those feet
>> dry, but why do horses do it?  I'm assuming there's a risk of a turned
>> ankle because horses can't see under the water.  If that's the case, 
>> would
>> the
>>  horse be less likely to hurt an ankle if the horse lost 150+ lbs (ie. 
>> the
>> rider got off)?
>>
>> I try to limit my frustration by saying the horsemen played a large role
>> in creating these trails, and maintaining them, but I wonder about the
>> accuracy of this sometimes.
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> Shon
>> _______________________________________________
>> Pct-L mailing list
>> Pct-L at backcountry.net
>> To unsubcribe, or change options visit:
>> http://mailman.backcountry.net/mailman/listinfo/pct-l
>>
>> List Archives:
>> http://mailman.backcountry.net/pipermail/pct-l/
>> All content is copyrighted by the respective authors.
>> Reproduction is is prohibited without express permission.
>>
>
>
>
> --
> "I'll believe corporations are people when Texas executes one."
> (anon.)
> ?The comfort of the rich depends upon an abundant supply of the poor."
> (Voltaire)
> _______________________________________________
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------------------------------

Message: 5
Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2011 20:11:03 -0800 (PST)
From: Charles Williams <charlesnolie at yahoo.com>
Subject: [pct-l] Fw: Re:  horses
To: PCT list <Pct-L at backcountry.net>
Message-ID:
<1324095063.85941.YahooMailClassic at web34406.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8

--- On Fri, 12/16/11, Charles Williams <charlesnolie at yahoo.com> wrote:

From: Charles Williams <charlesnolie at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [pct-l] horses
To: "rob gratz" <hikergratz at gmail.com>
Date: Friday, December 16, 2011, 8:10 PM

The Backcountry Horsemen of America is the only non-profit outdoor related 
business that I've heard of that picks up the tab for training it's members 
in Leave No Trace ethics.? They teach a crop of nearly a dozen horsemen each 
year at the organization's expense to be Master Educator's in the Leave No 
Trace practices.? Their only obligation is that they return to their states 
and teach classes (with another Master Educator) to the rank and file 
horsemen/packers.? The program includes special "best practices" information 
that pertain to just stockmen and all the regular stuff that a LNT program 
has.? Exempt?? I don't think so.? I know all horsemen are not up to speed on 
LNT, but it is a mandate from the top of the Backcountry Horsemen of America 
that we get there as soon as possible.? And all hikers and outdoorsmen are 
not knowledgable in LNT either.? You need only take a trip among the "toilet 
paper tulips" of the JMT to see that.
?
With that I will retire as my fingers are raw from defending horsemen all 
day!
?
QuincyRider

--- On Fri, 12/16/11, rob gratz <hikergratz at gmail.com> wrote:

From: rob gratz <hikergratz at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [pct-l] horses
To: chiefcowboy at verizon.net
Cc: pct-l at backcountry.net, "Mike Yanasak" <amuddler2 at gmail.com>
Date: Friday, December 16, 2011, 7:52 PM

You are obviously very ignorant of the reality, that, were it not for
horses and mules, there would not BE a PCT for you to hike on. The
trail that you are hiking on was probably, historically, a horse
trail.

sorry ed your wrong. tradtional horse trails went east to west across
the ranges,not north and south.the only traditional horse trails i can
find were short segents to short lived mining operations.
here is the reality. the p.c.t. was origionaly envisioned as a hiking
trail,horseman wanted in on the action,so as a political compamise
they were allowed.
the truth is the p.c.t. could have been? constructed cheaper sooner
and on a better route unforntantly it had to be built to horse
standards.thats why nowadays we have to hike many extra
miles,ex.(fuller ridge to cabazon)or do road walks(seiad valley)

i did`nt really want to weigh in on this,but with a new crop of
horseman maybe i will get a honest answer.ive been on this list 12
years and almost every year ive posed this question to dozens of
horseman;

200 lb.hikers have to clean up after themselvesyou have to clean up
after your 50lb? dog. why do horseman? feel they don`t have to clean
up after their 800-1000lb animal .without minamizing the problem(it`s
not that bad,it`s just oats)without pointing out your good deeds(trail
work)why are horseman the only group exempt from leave no trace?

On 12/16/11, chiefcowboy at verizon.net <chiefcowboy at verizon.net> wrote:
> Well said Ed.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Edward Anderson
> Sent: Friday, December 16, 2011 3:15 PM
> To: Mike Yanasak ; pct-l at backcountry.net
> Subject: Re: [pct-l] horses
>
> You are obviously very ignorant of the reality, that, were it not for 
> horses
> and mules, there would not BE a PCT for you to hike on. The trail that you
> are hiking on was probably, historically, a horse trail. Backpacking came
> later. The creation and ongoing maintenance of the trails is done by 
> people
> (often volunteers) who need horses and mules to carry the required 
> equipment
> and materials. Question: When did you last volunteer to help? Do you just
> hike on the PCT?? If you do, you can't help but sometimes seeing others
> working on the trail. Notice that they have horses and mules tied nearby.
> That's how the tools, equipment , materials and often also the food and
> water needed for the workers got there.
> MendoRider-Hiker
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Mike Yanasak <amuddler2 at gmail.com>
> To: shon mcganty <smcganty at yahoo.com>
> Cc: "pct-l at backcountry.net" <pct-l at backcountry.net>
> Sent: Friday, December 16, 2011 12:28 PM
> Subject: Re: [pct-l] horses
>
> I look upon horses and mules as a pox on the trails--especially during
> hunting season.? I hike mostly in the N. Cascades of Washington.? Some
> trails have become essentially ditches at least two feet deep (check out
> the area between Reflection Lake and White Pass as well as the trail,
> although not PCT, between Holden and Lyman Lake.? I have also seen horses
> tied to bushes 15' from the edge of the lake while their owners were
> fishing).
>
> I weigh 183 lbs. (plus my pack) and I wear relatively soft-soled shoes.? 
> My
> impact on the trail in most situations is relatively minor.? Now consider
> the average hunter:? They sit on their asses atop a horse weighing maybe
> 1,000 lbs., and they often have two other horses in tow (one to carry all
> their incredibly extensive gear, and one to haul out the carcass of a deer
> or bear(!!!) that they might bag.? Each of the horses have 4 *STEEL
> SHOD*feet (that's a lotta weight--and a lotta hard feet).? 3,000 lbs.
> and 12
> feet!).? Is it maybe possible that one individual hunter might impact the
> trail...oh, maybe 20 times more than I?? During hunting season (along 
> about
> September), most water sources are becoming somewhat scarce.? The horse
> guys can haul in huge amounts of drinking water for themselves and then 
> are
> free to lead their stock to the tiny streams and seeps and allow them to
> stand there drinking and urinating/crapping in the same water that I will
> have to drink (check out the approved camping area at White Pass).
> I have seen the Forest Service contractors frantically getting the trails
> leading to the most popular hunting areas into shape in early September so
> as to not inconvenience the hunters, and even stacking up firewood for
> their use.? I don't know why.? When I mentioned this to a ranger, he
> suggested I should write my congressman :-)
>
> Horses are sort of like Mom and apple pie.? Inviolate, don't mess with
> them.? And while I have sometimes envied the ability of horsemen to easily
> travel such long distances in relative comfort, I don't think it's right.
>
> Perhaps a very costly permit hanging from each horses tail would 
> discourage
> some of that overuse, while helping to pay for some of the mitigation...
>
> Nader
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Fri, Dec 16, 2011 at 11:30 AM, shon mcganty <smcganty at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> I'm so happy with the holiday season and my wonderful memories of the 
>> PCT,
>> but thinking about the encounters I've had with horsemen and their effect
>> on my wilderness exeriences will always get me down.
>>
>> Perhaps the horsemen on this list can correct any mis-information I have,
>> and comments are welcome, but my general experience with horse riders has
>> been largely negative.
>>
>> First, in my home state of Washington I'd guess the majority of horsemen
>> are out there to hunt, or set up camps for the upcoming hunting season.
>> Only a few are out there in the same manner as a hiker, that is the enjoy
>> the wilderness as it is.? Horsemen, in my admittedly limited view, get 
>> out
>> in the wood and try to change it to suit their needs and/or make it more
>> like home.
>>
>> This includes building large small house-sized tarp camps, cutting down
>> live trees to make structures and firewood, hauling up iron grills to
>> place
>> over fires and leave them there, bring beer and carelessly discard them 
>> in
>> the woods.
>>
>> I've had several times were I was treated bad by horsemen.? Almost broke
>> out in a fight once.? I've gotten bad attitudes from them, and yes it 
>> feel
>> like I'm looked down upon.? Once I over heard one talk about backpackers
>> as
>> the enemy, we are what's wrong with the west, I recall him saying.? I'm
>> making a guess that it's due to the lack of freedom they have in
>> congress-designated wildernesses, where there are rules limiting group
>> size, use of mechanized machines, ect.? They seem to look at backbackers
>> has "liberals," with our desire for protection of the land and life being
>> following by rules (from using life bait like frogs, limiting the number
>> of
>> fish/game caught, or type of fish, or amound of land where trees can be
>> harvested).
>>
>> Then there are times where a trail skirts the edge or goes through a
>> meadow, and there are two or three sets of trail ruts.? If anyone knows
>> the
>> answer as to if hikers play or role I'd love to know, but it's always
>> worse
>> in areas frequented, not by hikers, but by horses.? The worst I've seen 
>> is
>> six or seven parralel ruts, creating a 15 foot wide cut in the earth like
>> a
>> three-lane jeep road, which looks horrible.? The two worse examples were
>> in
>> Yosemite's valleys (crowed with both hikers and pack trains) and the
>> central Pasayten Wilderness (remote area not heavily used by hikers but
>> used lots by horsemen).? I'm just guessing it's not the hikers making
>> those
>> (please correct me if I'm wrong here), but horses.? I know most hikers
>> (I'll admit I do it sometimes) with skirt a wet trail to keep those feet
>> dry, but why do horses do it?? I'm assuming there's a risk of a turned
>> ankle because horses can't see under the water.? If that's the case, 
>> would
>> the
>>? horse be less likely to hurt an ankle if the horse lost 150+ lbs (ie. 
>>the
>> rider got off)?
>>
>> I try to limit my frustration by saying the horsemen played a large role
>> in creating these trails, and maintaining them, but I wonder about the
>> accuracy of this sometimes.
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> Shon
>> _______________________________________________
>> Pct-L mailing list
>> Pct-L at backcountry.net
>> To unsubcribe, or change options visit:
>> http://mailman.backcountry.net/mailman/listinfo/pct-l
>>
>> List Archives:
>> http://mailman.backcountry.net/pipermail/pct-l/
>> All content is copyrighted by the respective authors.
>> Reproduction is is prohibited without express permission.
>>
>
>
>
> --
> "I'll believe corporations are people when Texas executes one."
> (anon.)
> ?The comfort of the rich depends upon an abundant supply of the poor."
> (Voltaire)
> _______________________________________________
> Pct-L mailing list
> Pct-L at backcountry.net
> To unsubcribe, or change options visit:
> http://mailman.backcountry.net/mailman/listinfo/pct-l
>
> List Archives:
> http://mailman.backcountry.net/pipermail/pct-l/
> All content is copyrighted by the respective authors.
> Reproduction is is prohibited without express permission.
> _______________________________________________
> Pct-L mailing list
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> To unsubcribe, or change options visit:
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>
> List Archives:
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> All content is copyrighted by the respective authors.
> Reproduction is is prohibited without express permission.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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> Pct-L at backcountry.net
> To unsubcribe, or change options visit:
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>
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> All content is copyrighted by the respective authors.
> Reproduction is is prohibited without express permission.
_______________________________________________
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Reproduction is is prohibited without express permission.

------------------------------

Message: 6
Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2011 23:17:02 -0500
From: "giniajim" <jplynch at crosslink.net>
Subject: Re: [pct-l] Fw: Re:  horses
To: "Charles Williams" <charlesnolie at yahoo.com>, "PCT list"
<Pct-L at backcountry.net>
Message-ID: <000A738F77EF4C53A7B07C7955734D43 at HomePC>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="UTF-8";
reply-type=original

I'm glad to hear about the Backcountry Horsemen of America.  But what do
they teach about removing horse poop from trails?

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Charles Williams" <charlesnolie at yahoo.com>
To: "PCT list" <Pct-L at backcountry.net>
Sent: Friday, December 16, 2011 11:11 PM
Subject: [pct-l] Fw: Re: horses

>
>
> --- On Fri, 12/16/11, Charles Williams <charlesnolie at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
> From: Charles Williams <charlesnolie at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Re: [pct-l] horses
> To: "rob gratz" <hikergratz at gmail.com>
> Date: Friday, December 16, 2011, 8:10 PM
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> The Backcountry Horsemen of America is the only non-profit outdoor related
> business that I've heard of that picks up the tab for training it's
> members in Leave No Trace ethics. They teach a crop of nearly a dozen
> horsemen each year at the organization's expense to be Master Educator's
> in the Leave No Trace practices. Their only obligation is that they return
> to their states and teach classes (with another Master Educator) to the
> rank and file horsemen/packers. The program includes special "best
> practices" information that pertain to just stockmen and all the regular
> stuff that a LNT program has. Exempt? I don't think so. I know all
> horsemen are not up to speed on LNT, but it is a mandate from the top of
> the Backcountry Horsemen of America that we get there as soon as possible.
> And all hikers and outdoorsmen are not knowledgable in LNT either. You
> need only take a trip among the "toilet paper tulips" of the JMT to see
> that.
>
> With that I will retire as my fingers are raw from defending horsemen all
> day!
>
> QuincyRider
>

------------------------------

Message: 7
Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2011 20:26:46 -0800
From: Mike Yanasak <amuddler2 at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [pct-l] horses
To: rob gratz <hikergratz at gmail.com>
Cc: pct-l at backcountry.net
Message-ID:
<CA+CNRQJoKrZU5_eJewV-GUfXcCkYWxUBdXfUjWezze2yEpeKpg at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252

Well, that is interesting but irrelevant to my points.  ChiefCowboy accused
me of expressing my "ignorance of reality" (sic), and then went on to make
several statements, none of which had any relation to my post.  I would, if
possible, humbly request this ChiefCowboy fella to kindly dissect my post,
item by item, and show me where I erred so that I may, in the future, be
more correct (and I may even learn to appreciate horses on the trails).
Here it is, again, Cowboy.  Have at 'er, please try again:

*I look upon horses and mules as a pox on the trails--especially during
hunting season.  I hike mostly in the N. Cascades of Washington.  Some
trails have become essentially ditches at least two feet deep (check out
the area between Reflection Lake and White Pass as well as the trail,
although not PCT, between Holden and Lyman Lake.  I have also seen horses
tied to bushes 15' from the edge of the lake while their owners were
fishing).*
*
*
*I weigh 183 lbs. (plus my pack) and I wear relatively soft-soled shoes.
My impact on the trail in most situations is relatively minor.  Now
consider the average hunter:  They sit on their asses atop a horse weighing
maybe 1,000 lbs., and they often have two other horses in tow (one to carry
all their incredibly extensive gear, and one to haul out the carcass of a
deer or bear(!!!) that they might bag.  Each of the horses have 4
STEEL SHOD feet
(that's a lotta weight--and a lotta hard feet).  3,000 lbs. and 12 feet!).
Is it maybe possible that one individual hunter might impact the
trail...oh, maybe 20 times more than I?  During hunting season (along about
September), most water sources are becoming somewhat scarce.  The horse
guys can haul in huge amounts of drinking water for themselves and then are
free to lead their stock to the tiny streams and seeps and allow them to
stand there drinking and urinating/crapping in the same water that I will
have to drink (check out the approved camping area at White Pass).  *
*I have seen the Forest Service contractors frantically getting the trails
leading to the most popular hunting areas into shape in early September so
as to not inconvenience the hunters, and even stacking up firewood for
their use.  I don't know why.  When I mentioned this to a ranger, he
suggested I should write my congressman :-)*
*
*
*Horses are sort of like Mom and apple pie.  Inviolate, don't mess with
them.  And while I have sometimes envied the ability of horsemen to easily
travel such long distances in relative comfort, I don't think it's right.  *
*
*
*Perhaps a very costly permit hanging from each horses tail would
discourage some of that overuse, while helping to pay for some of the
mitigation...*

Thank you.
Nader

On Fri, Dec 16, 2011 at 7:52 PM, rob gratz <hikergratz at gmail.com> wrote:

> You are obviously very ignorant of the reality, that, were it not for
> horses and mules, there would not BE a PCT for you to hike on. The
> trail that you are hiking on was probably, historically, a horse
> trail.
>
> sorry ed your wrong. tradtional horse trails went east to west across
> the ranges,not north and south.the only traditional horse trails i can
> find were short segents to short lived mining operations.
> here is the reality. the p.c.t. was origionaly envisioned as a hiking
> trail,horseman wanted in on the action,so as a political compamise
> they were allowed.
> the truth is the p.c.t. could have been  constructed cheaper sooner
> and on a better route unforntantly it had to be built to horse
> standards.thats why nowadays we have to hike many extra
> miles,ex.(fuller ridge to cabazon)or do road walks(seiad valley)
>
> i did`nt really want to weigh in on this,but with a new crop of
> horseman maybe i will get a honest answer.ive been on this list 12
> years and almost every year ive posed this question to dozens of
> horseman;
>
> 200 lb.hikers have to clean up after themselvesyou have to clean up
> after your 50lb  dog. why do horseman  feel they don`t have to clean
> up after their 800-1000lb animal .without minamizing the problem(it`s
> not that bad,it`s just oats)without pointing out your good deeds(trail
> work)why are horseman the only group exempt from leave no trace?
>
>
>
> On 12/16/11, chiefcowboy at verizon.net <chiefcowboy at verizon.net> wrote:
> > Well said Ed.
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Edward Anderson
> > Sent: Friday, December 16, 2011 3:15 PM
> > To: Mike Yanasak ; pct-l at backcountry.net
> > Subject: Re: [pct-l] horses
> >
> > You are obviously very ignorant of the reality, that, were it not for
> horses
> > and mules, there would not BE a PCT for you to hike on. The trail that
> you
> > are hiking on was probably, historically, a horse trail. Backpacking 
> > came
> > later. The creation and ongoing maintenance of the trails is done by
> people
> > (often volunteers) who need horses and mules to carry the required
> equipment
> > and materials. Question: When did you last volunteer to help? Do you 
> > just
> > hike on the PCT?  If you do, you can't help but sometimes seeing others
> > working on the trail. Notice that they have horses and mules tied 
> > nearby.
> > That's how the tools, equipment , materials and often also the food and
> > water needed for the workers got there.
> > MendoRider-Hiker
> >
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: Mike Yanasak <amuddler2 at gmail.com>
> > To: shon mcganty <smcganty at yahoo.com>
> > Cc: "pct-l at backcountry.net" <pct-l at backcountry.net>
> > Sent: Friday, December 16, 2011 12:28 PM
> > Subject: Re: [pct-l] horses
> >
> > I look upon horses and mules as a pox on the trails--especially during
> > hunting season.  I hike mostly in the N. Cascades of Washington.  Some
> > trails have become essentially ditches at least two feet deep (check out
> > the area between Reflection Lake and White Pass as well as the trail,
> > although not PCT, between Holden and Lyman Lake.  I have also seen 
> > horses
> > tied to bushes 15' from the edge of the lake while their owners were
> > fishing).
> >
> > I weigh 183 lbs. (plus my pack) and I wear relatively soft-soled shoes.
>  My
> > impact on the trail in most situations is relatively minor.  Now 
> > consider
> > the average hunter:  They sit on their asses atop a horse weighing maybe
> > 1,000 lbs., and they often have two other horses in tow (one to carry 
> > all
> > their incredibly extensive gear, and one to haul out the carcass of a
> deer
> > or bear(!!!) that they might bag.  Each of the horses have 4 *STEEL
> > SHOD*feet (that's a lotta weight--and a lotta hard feet).  3,000 lbs.
> > and 12
> > feet!).  Is it maybe possible that one individual hunter might impact 
> > the
> > trail...oh, maybe 20 times more than I?  During hunting season (along
> about
> > September), most water sources are becoming somewhat scarce.  The horse
> > guys can haul in huge amounts of drinking water for themselves and then
> are
> > free to lead their stock to the tiny streams and seeps and allow them to
> > stand there drinking and urinating/crapping in the same water that I 
> > will
> > have to drink (check out the approved camping area at White Pass).
> > I have seen the Forest Service contractors frantically getting the 
> > trails
> > leading to the most popular hunting areas into shape in early September
> so
> > as to not inconvenience the hunters, and even stacking up firewood for
> > their use.  I don't know why.  When I mentioned this to a ranger, he
> > suggested I should write my congressman :-)
> >
> > Horses are sort of like Mom and apple pie.  Inviolate, don't mess with
> > them.  And while I have sometimes envied the ability of horsemen to
> easily
> > travel such long distances in relative comfort, I don't think it's 
> > right.
> >
> > Perhaps a very costly permit hanging from each horses tail would
> discourage
> > some of that overuse, while helping to pay for some of the mitigation...
> >
> > Nader
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Fri, Dec 16, 2011 at 11:30 AM, shon mcganty <smcganty at yahoo.com>
> wrote:
> >
> >> I'm so happy with the holiday season and my wonderful memories of the
> PCT,
> >> but thinking about the encounters I've had with horsemen and their
> effect
> >> on my wilderness exeriences will always get me down.
> >>
> >> Perhaps the horsemen on this list can correct any mis-information I
> have,
> >> and comments are welcome, but my general experience with horse riders
> has
> >> been largely negative.
> >>
> >> First, in my home state of Washington I'd guess the majority of 
> >> horsemen
> >> are out there to hunt, or set up camps for the upcoming hunting season.
> >> Only a few are out there in the same manner as a hiker, that is the
> enjoy
> >> the wilderness as it is.  Horsemen, in my admittedly limited view, get
> out
> >> in the wood and try to change it to suit their needs and/or make it 
> >> more
> >> like home.
> >>
> >> This includes building large small house-sized tarp camps, cutting down
> >> live trees to make structures and firewood, hauling up iron grills to
> >> place
> >> over fires and leave them there, bring beer and carelessly discard them
> in
> >> the woods.
> >>
> >> I've had several times were I was treated bad by horsemen.  Almost 
> >> broke
> >> out in a fight once.  I've gotten bad attitudes from them, and yes it
> feel
> >> like I'm looked down upon.  Once I over heard one talk about 
> >> backpackers
> >> as
> >> the enemy, we are what's wrong with the west, I recall him saying.  I'm
> >> making a guess that it's due to the lack of freedom they have in
> >> congress-designated wildernesses, where there are rules limiting group
> >> size, use of mechanized machines, ect.  They seem to look at 
> >> backbackers
> >> has "liberals," with our desire for protection of the land and life
> being
> >> following by rules (from using life bait like frogs, limiting the 
> >> number
> >> of
> >> fish/game caught, or type of fish, or amound of land where trees can be
> >> harvested).
> >>
> >> Then there are times where a trail skirts the edge or goes through a
> >> meadow, and there are two or three sets of trail ruts.  If anyone knows
> >> the
> >> answer as to if hikers play or role I'd love to know, but it's always
> >> worse
> >> in areas frequented, not by hikers, but by horses.  The worst I've seen
> is
> >> six or seven parralel ruts, creating a 15 foot wide cut in the earth
> like
> >> a
> >> three-lane jeep road, which looks horrible.  The two worse examples 
> >> were
> >> in
> >> Yosemite's valleys (crowed with both hikers and pack trains) and the
> >> central Pasayten Wilderness (remote area not heavily used by hikers but
> >> used lots by horsemen).  I'm just guessing it's not the hikers making
> >> those
> >> (please correct me if I'm wrong here), but horses.  I know most hikers
> >> (I'll admit I do it sometimes) with skirt a wet trail to keep those 
> >> feet
> >> dry, but why do horses do it?  I'm assuming there's a risk of a turned
> >> ankle because horses can't see under the water.  If that's the case,
> would
> >> the
> >>  horse be less likely to hurt an ankle if the horse lost 150+ lbs (ie.
> the
> >> rider got off)?
> >>
> >> I try to limit my frustration by saying the horsemen played a large 
> >> role
> >> in creating these trails, and maintaining them, but I wonder about the
> >> accuracy of this sometimes.
> >>
> >> Cheers,
> >>
> >> Shon
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Pct-L mailing list
> >> Pct-L at backcountry.net
> >> To unsubcribe, or change options visit:
> >> http://mailman.backcountry.net/mailman/listinfo/pct-l
> >>
> >> List Archives:
> >> http://mailman.backcountry.net/pipermail/pct-l/
> >> All content is copyrighted by the respective authors.
> >> Reproduction is is prohibited without express permission.
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > "I'll believe corporations are people when Texas executes one."
> > (anon.)
> > ?The comfort of the rich depends upon an abundant supply of the poor."
> > (Voltaire)
> > _______________________________________________
> > Pct-L mailing list
> > Pct-L at backcountry.net
> > To unsubcribe, or change options visit:
> > http://mailman.backcountry.net/mailman/listinfo/pct-l
> >
> > List Archives:
> > http://mailman.backcountry.net/pipermail/pct-l/
> > All content is copyrighted by the respective authors.
> > Reproduction is is prohibited without express permission.
> > _______________________________________________
> > Pct-L mailing list
> > Pct-L at backcountry.net
> > To unsubcribe, or change options visit:
> > http://mailman.backcountry.net/mailman/listinfo/pct-l
> >
> > List Archives:
> > http://mailman.backcountry.net/pipermail/pct-l/
> > All content is copyrighted by the respective authors.
> > Reproduction is is prohibited without express permission.
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Pct-L mailing list
> > Pct-L at backcountry.net
> > To unsubcribe, or change options visit:
> > http://mailman.backcountry.net/mailman/listinfo/pct-l
> >
> > List Archives:
> > http://mailman.backcountry.net/pipermail/pct-l/
> > All content is copyrighted by the respective authors.
> > Reproduction is is prohibited without express permission.
>

-- 
"I'll believe corporations are people when Texas executes one."
(anon.)
?The comfort of the rich depends upon an abundant supply of the poor."
(Voltaire)

------------------------------

Message: 8
Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2011 21:39:56 -0800
From: <chiefcowboy at verizon.net>
Subject: Re: [pct-l] horses
To: "Mike Yanasak" <amuddler2 at gmail.com>, "rob gratz"
<hikergratz at gmail.com>
Cc: pct-l at backcountry.net
Message-ID: <DD28C0A7645344FD9A326076E00B114B at RonPC>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252"

Actually Mike, I think you have me mistaken with someone else?s posts.
All I have said on this topic is that (1)  It is no big deal to stop over or 
around horse droppings (2)  I hoped that hikers would not be viewed as 
arrogant elitists who felt we owned the trail and (3) the guy who wanted 
free or reduced fee backcounty pack services was out of line.

Anything else must have been posted by someone else.

Your apology will be accepted graciously because I never said what you 
attribute to me.

And, by the way, Merry Christmas.

From: Mike Yanasak
Sent: Friday, December 16, 2011 8:26 PM
To: rob gratz
Cc: chiefcowboy at verizon.net ; Edward Anderson ; pct-l at backcountry.net
Subject: Re: [pct-l] horses

Well, that is interesting but irrelevant to my points.  ChiefCowboy accused 
me of expressing my "ignorance of reality" (sic), and then went on to make 
several statements, none of which had any relation to my post.  I would, if 
possible, humbly request this ChiefCowboy fella to kindly dissect my post, 
item by item, and show me where I erred so that I may, in the future, be 
more correct (and I may even learn to appreciate horses on the trails).
Here it is, again, Cowboy.  Have at 'er, please try again:

I look upon horses and mules as a pox on the trails--especially during 
hunting season.  I hike mostly in the N. Cascades of Washington.  Some 
trails have become essentially ditches at least two feet deep (check out the 
area between Reflection Lake and White Pass as well as the trail, although 
not PCT, between Holden and Lyman Lake.  I have also seen horses tied to 
bushes 15' from the edge of the lake while their owners were fishing).

I weigh 183 lbs. (plus my pack) and I wear relatively soft-soled shoes.  My 
impact on the trail in most situations is relatively minor.  Now consider 
the average hunter:  They sit on their asses atop a horse weighing maybe 
1,000 lbs., and they often have two other horses in tow (one to carry all 
their incredibly extensive gear, and one to haul out the carcass of a deer 
or bear(!!!) that they might bag.  Each of the horses have 4 STEEL SHOD feet 
(that's a lotta weight--and a lotta hard feet).  3,000 lbs. and 12 feet!). 
Is it maybe possible that one individual hunter might impact the trail...oh, 
maybe 20 times more than I?  During hunting season (along about September), 
most water sources are becoming somewhat scarce.  The horse guys can haul in 
huge amounts of drinking water for themselves and then are free to lead 
their stock to the tiny streams and seeps and allow them to stand there 
drinking and urinating/crapping in the same water that I will have to drink 
(check out the
approved camping area at White Pass).
I have seen the Forest Service contractors frantically getting the trails 
leading to the most popular hunting areas into shape in early September so 
as to not inconvenience the hunters, and even stacking up firewood for their 
use.  I don't know why.  When I mentioned this to a ranger, he suggested I 
should write my congressman :-)

Horses are sort of like Mom and apple pie.  Inviolate, don't mess with them. 
And while I have sometimes envied the ability of horsemen to easily travel 
such long distances in relative comfort, I don't think it's right.

Perhaps a very costly permit hanging from each horses tail would discourage 
some of that overuse, while helping to pay for some of the mitigation...

Thank you.
Nader

On Fri, Dec 16, 2011 at 7:52 PM, rob gratz <hikergratz at gmail.com> wrote:

  You are obviously very ignorant of the reality, that, were it not for
  horses and mules, there would not BE a PCT for you to hike on. The
  trail that you are hiking on was probably, historically, a horse
  trail.

  sorry ed your wrong. tradtional horse trails went east to west across
  the ranges,not north and south.the only traditional horse trails i can
  find were short segents to short lived mining operations.
  here is the reality. the p.c.t. was origionaly envisioned as a hiking
  trail,horseman wanted in on the action,so as a political compamise
  they were allowed.
  the truth is the p.c.t. could have been  constructed cheaper sooner
  and on a better route unforntantly it had to be built to horse
  standards.thats why nowadays we have to hike many extra
  miles,ex.(fuller ridge to cabazon)or do road walks(seiad valley)

  i did`nt really want to weigh in on this,but with a new crop of
  horseman maybe i will get a honest answer.ive been on this list 12
  years and almost every year ive posed this question to dozens of
  horseman;

  200 lb.hikers have to clean up after themselvesyou have to clean up
  after your 50lb  dog. why do horseman  feel they don`t have to clean
  up after their 800-1000lb animal .without minamizing the problem(it`s
  not that bad,it`s just oats)without pointing out your good deeds(trail
  work)why are horseman the only group exempt from leave no trace?

  On 12/16/11, chiefcowboy at verizon.net <chiefcowboy at verizon.net> wrote:
  > Well said Ed.
  >
  > -----Original Message-----
  > From: Edward Anderson
  > Sent: Friday, December 16, 2011 3:15 PM
  > To: Mike Yanasak ; pct-l at backcountry.net
  > Subject: Re: [pct-l] horses
  >
  > You are obviously very ignorant of the reality, that, were it not for 
horses
  > and mules, there would not BE a PCT for you to hike on. The trail that 
you
  > are hiking on was probably, historically, a horse trail. Backpacking 
came
  > later. The creation and ongoing maintenance of the trails is done by 
people
  > (often volunteers) who need horses and mules to carry the required 
equipment
  > and materials. Question: When did you last volunteer to help? Do you 
just
  > hike on the PCT?  If you do, you can't help but sometimes seeing others
  > working on the trail. Notice that they have horses and mules tied 
nearby.
  > That's how the tools, equipment , materials and often also the food and
  > water needed for the workers got there.
  > MendoRider-Hiker
  >
  >
  > ________________________________
  > From: Mike Yanasak <amuddler2 at gmail.com>
  > To: shon mcganty <smcganty at yahoo.com>
  > Cc: "pct-l at backcountry.net" <pct-l at backcountry.net>
  > Sent: Friday, December 16, 2011 12:28 PM
  > Subject: Re: [pct-l] horses
  >
  > I look upon horses and mules as a pox on the trails--especially during
  > hunting season.  I hike mostly in the N. Cascades of Washington.  Some
  > trails have become essentially ditches at least two feet deep (check out
  > the area between Reflection Lake and White Pass as well as the trail,
  > although not PCT, between Holden and Lyman Lake.  I have also seen 
horses
  > tied to bushes 15' from the edge of the lake while their owners were
  > fishing).
  >
  > I weigh 183 lbs. (plus my pack) and I wear relatively soft-soled shoes. 
My
  > impact on the trail in most situations is relatively minor.  Now 
consider
  > the average hunter:  They sit on their asses atop a horse weighing maybe
  > 1,000 lbs., and they often have two other horses in tow (one to carry 
all
  > their incredibly extensive gear, and one to haul out the carcass of a 
deer
  > or bear(!!!) that they might bag.  Each of the horses have 4 *STEEL
  > SHOD*feet (that's a lotta weight--and a lotta hard feet).  3,000 lbs.
  > and 12
  > feet!).  Is it maybe possible that one individual hunter might impact 
the
  > trail...oh, maybe 20 times more than I?  During hunting season (along 
about
  > September), most water sources are becoming somewhat scarce.  The horse
  > guys can haul in huge amounts of drinking water for themselves and then 
are
  > free to lead their stock to the tiny streams and seeps and allow them to
  > stand there drinking and urinating/crapping in the same water that I 
will
  > have to drink (check out the approved camping area at White Pass).
  > I have seen the Forest Service contractors frantically getting the 
trails
  > leading to the most popular hunting areas into shape in early September 
so
  > as to not inconvenience the hunters, and even stacking up firewood for
  > their use.  I don't know why.  When I mentioned this to a ranger, he
  > suggested I should write my congressman :-)
  >
  > Horses are sort of like Mom and apple pie.  Inviolate, don't mess with
  > them.  And while I have sometimes envied the ability of horsemen to 
easily
  > travel such long distances in relative comfort, I don't think it's 
right.
  >
  > Perhaps a very costly permit hanging from each horses tail would 
discourage
  > some of that overuse, while helping to pay for some of the mitigation...
  >
  > Nader
  >
  >
  >
  >
  >
  >
  > On Fri, Dec 16, 2011 at 11:30 AM, shon mcganty <smcganty at yahoo.com> 
wrote:
  >
  >> I'm so happy with the holiday season and my wonderful memories of the 
PCT,
  >> but thinking about the encounters I've had with horsemen and their 
effect
  >> on my wilderness exeriences will always get me down.
  >>
  >> Perhaps the horsemen on this list can correct any mis-information I 
have,
  >> and comments are welcome, but my general experience with horse riders 
has
  >> been largely negative.
  >>
  >> First, in my home state of Washington I'd guess the majority of 
horsemen
  >> are out there to hunt, or set up camps for the upcoming hunting season.
  >> Only a few are out there in the same manner as a hiker, that is the 
enjoy
  >> the wilderness as it is.  Horsemen, in my admittedly limited view, get 
out
  >> in the wood and try to change it to suit their needs and/or make it 
more
  >> like home.
  >>
  >> This includes building large small house-sized tarp camps, cutting down
  >> live trees to make structures and firewood, hauling up iron grills to
  >> place
  >> over fires and leave them there, bring beer and carelessly discard them 
in
  >> the woods.
  >>
  >> I've had several times were I was treated bad by horsemen.  Almost 
broke
  >> out in a fight once.  I've gotten bad attitudes from them, and yes it 
feel
  >> like I'm looked down upon.  Once I over heard one talk about 
backpackers
  >> as
  >> the enemy, we are what's wrong with the west, I recall him saying.  I'm
  >> making a guess that it's due to the lack of freedom they have in
  >> congress-designated wildernesses, where there are rules limiting group
  >> size, use of mechanized machines, ect.  They seem to look at 
backbackers
  >> has "liberals," with our desire for protection of the land and life 
being
  >> following by rules (from using life bait like frogs, limiting the 
number
  >> of
  >> fish/game caught, or type of fish, or amound of land where trees can be
  >> harvested).
  >>
  >> Then there are times where a trail skirts the edge or goes through a
  >> meadow, and there are two or three sets of trail ruts.  If anyone knows
  >> the
  >> answer as to if hikers play or role I'd love to know, but it's always
  >> worse
  >> in areas frequented, not by hikers, but by horses.  The worst I've seen 
is
  >> six or seven parralel ruts, creating a 15 foot wide cut in the earth 
like
  >> a
  >> three-lane jeep road, which looks horrible.  The two worse examples 
were
  >> in
  >> Yosemite's valleys (crowed with both hikers and pack trains) and the
  >> central Pasayten Wilderness (remote area not heavily used by hikers but
  >> used lots by horsemen).  I'm just guessing it's not the hikers making
  >> those
  >> (please correct me if I'm wrong here), but horses.  I know most hikers
  >> (I'll admit I do it sometimes) with skirt a wet trail to keep those 
feet
  >> dry, but why do horses do it?  I'm assuming there's a risk of a turned
  >> ankle because horses can't see under the water.  If that's the case, 
would
  >> the
  >>  horse be less likely to hurt an ankle if the horse lost 150+ lbs (ie. 
the
  >> rider got off)?
  >>
  >> I try to limit my frustration by saying the horsemen played a large 
role
  >> in creating these trails, and maintaining them, but I wonder about the
  >> accuracy of this sometimes.
  >>
  >> Cheers,
  >>
  >> Shon
  >> _______________________________________________
  >> Pct-L mailing list
  >> Pct-L at backcountry.net
  >> To unsubcribe, or change options visit:
  >> http://mailman.backcountry.net/mailman/listinfo/pct-l
  >>
  >> List Archives:
  >> http://mailman.backcountry.net/pipermail/pct-l/
  >> All content is copyrighted by the respective authors.
  >> Reproduction is is prohibited without express permission.
  >>
  >
  >
  >
  > --
  > "I'll believe corporations are people when Texas executes one."
  > (anon.)
  > ?The comfort of the rich depends upon an abundant supply of the poor."
  > (Voltaire)
  > _______________________________________________
  > Pct-L mailing list
  > Pct-L at backcountry.net
  > To unsubcribe, or change options visit:
  > http://mailman.backcountry.net/mailman/listinfo/pct-l
  >
  > List Archives:
  > http://mailman.backcountry.net/pipermail/pct-l/
  > All content is copyrighted by the respective authors.
  > Reproduction is is prohibited without express permission.
  > _______________________________________________
  > Pct-L mailing list
  > Pct-L at backcountry.net
  > To unsubcribe, or change options visit:
  > http://mailman.backcountry.net/mailman/listinfo/pct-l
  >
  > List Archives:
  > http://mailman.backcountry.net/pipermail/pct-l/
  > All content is copyrighted by the respective authors.
  > Reproduction is is prohibited without express permission.
  >
  >
  > _______________________________________________
  > Pct-L mailing list
  > Pct-L at backcountry.net
  > To unsubcribe, or change options visit:
  > http://mailman.backcountry.net/mailman/listinfo/pct-l
  >
  > List Archives:
  > http://mailman.backcountry.net/pipermail/pct-l/
  > All content is copyrighted by the respective authors.
  > Reproduction is is prohibited without express permission.

-- 

"I'll believe corporations are people when Texas executes one."
(anon.)
?The comfort of the rich depends upon an abundant supply of the poor." 
(Voltaire)

------------------------------

Message: 9
Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2011 00:34:29 -0800
From: rob gratz <hikergratz at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [pct-l] Fw: Re: horses
To: giniajim <jplynch at crosslink.net>
Cc: PCT list <Pct-L at backcountry.net>
Message-ID:
<CAGAd3kEMoMXJWEGZmHpf=mkdeZTqmYaLMj7KZLiHoMCvKn53rQ at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

> I'm glad to hear about the Backcountry Horsemen of America.  But what do
> they teach about removing horse poop from trails?

they teach you should minamize the problem,then blame hikers for complaning.

------------------------------

Message: 10
Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2011 01:09:21 -0800
From: rob gratz <hikergratz at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [pct-l] Fw: Re: horses
To: Charles Williams <charlesnolie at yahoo.com>
Cc: PCT list <Pct-L at backcountry.net>
Message-ID:
<CAGAd3kGz-+qK82pHSEbMcaUF11BS2SPcAVpLrvcovabuMzMHyw at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

> The Backcountry Horsemen of America is the only non-profit outdoor related
> business that I've heard of that picks up the tab for training it's 
> members
> in Leave No Trace ethics.

this is a lie. go to their website  and read their mission statment i
quote" Back Country Horsemen are interested in perpetuating
recreational stock use on virtually all public lands.go to thier
website nowhere do you see one  thing about cleaning up after
yourself. see for yourself
http://www.backcountryhorse.com/index.html

i noticed you never answed my question. don`t feel bad no one else has 
eithier.

------------------------------

Message: 11
Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2011 03:28:29 -0800 (PST)
From: Charles Williams <charlesnolie at yahoo.com>
Subject: [pct-l] Fw: Re:  Fw: Re: horses
To: PCT list <Pct-L at backcountry.net>
Message-ID:
<1324121309.77590.YahooMailClassic at web34403.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1

--- On Sat, 12/17/11, Charles Williams <charlesnolie at yahoo.com> wrote:

From: Charles Williams <charlesnolie at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [pct-l] Fw: Re: horses
To: "rob gratz" <hikergratz at gmail.com>
Date: Saturday, December 17, 2011, 3:27 AM

"This is a lie"? You say!? ?I can't believe you went to the BCHA website to 
investigate my claim of their supporting LNT principles and didn't happen to 
see the button, nearly at the top of the screen, that said "Leave No 
Trace".? Before calling someone a liar as you? just called me, I would 
expect you to make at least a good faith effort to investigate my claim.? 
You went to their website and collected the ammunition you thought you 
needed to shoot me down, which had nothing to do with my statement and then 
called me a liar for making a statement that is entirely truthful.? Read the 
page that pops up when you click on the LNT button on their home page.? I 
saw it plain as day so I don't know why you couldn't.
?
Yes, they advocate for continued stock use of our public lands.? I would 
expect a similar mission statement from a hiker oriented group.

www.backcountryhorse.com
?
As far as your question goes, I can't remember it since you hacked up the 
emails, but I'd imagine it has to do with horseshit on the trail.? When I 
was young, opinionated, and arogant, I thought only people like me should be 
allowed to use the wilderness.? The rangers of Sequoia and Kings Canyon 
would tell me I had the "right attitude" by handing out fliars for hiker 
advocacy groups.? I remember on a trip from Kennedy Meadows to Canada I met 
a backcountry camp of horsemenin Le Conte canyon.? They were nice they 
offered me breakfast but I turned 'em down and said "your horses and mules 
destroy the trail!"?
?
This was without any real consideration of how little effort it actually 
took to step over a pile of horse poop.? It was just a knee-jerk reaction to 
something that wasn't really a problem to me at all.? When I got old and fat 
and broke my back I started looking to horses to keep me in the 
backcountry.? I sincerely hope that never happens to you.? But it might.? 
Think about it.
?
And if you think horsemen are the only ones to screw up the backcountry, 
they're not.? You've been on the list a while and I'm sure you've read about 
lazy hikers dumping their trash at toilets, water caches, and campgrounds 
with allready full trash cans.? Even if they leave some lame-assed note:? 
"can you please carry out my trash, cause I'm to weak to carry it any 
more".? I've also seen a hiker burry his dinner in a hole he scuffed in the 
sand with his boot instead of packing out the meal he had found unsavery.
--- On Sat, 12/17/11, rob gratz <hikergratz at gmail.com> wrote:

From: rob gratz <hikergratz at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [pct-l] Fw: Re: horses
To: "Charles Williams" <charlesnolie at yahoo.com>
Cc: "PCT list" <Pct-L at backcountry.net>
Date: Saturday, December 17, 2011, 1:09 AM

> The Backcountry Horsemen of America is the only non-profit outdoor related
> business that I've heard of that picks up the tab for training it's 
> members
> in Leave No Trace ethics.

this is a lie. go to their website? and read their mission statment i
quote" Back Country Horsemen are interested in perpetuating
recreational stock use on virtually all public lands.go to thier
website nowhere do you see one? thing about cleaning up after
yourself. see for yourself
http://www.backcountryhorse.com/index.html

i noticed you never answed my question. don`t feel bad no one else has 
eithier.

------------------------------

Message: 12
Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2011 07:05:32 -0800 (PST)
From: Edward Anderson <mendoridered at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [pct-l] horses
To: rob gratz <hikergratz at gmail.com>, "pct-l at backcountry.net"
<pct-l at backcountry.net>
Cc: Mike Yanasak <amuddler2 at gmail.com>
Message-ID:
<1324134332.60406.YahooMailNeo at web111617.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8

Hello Mike,
Gosh, I really appreciate all?the friendly comments from yourself and Rob. 
It warms my heart that you are so appreciative of all the volunteer work 
that we Back Country Horsemen, and the Packers and other equestrians do in 
creating and maintaining the PCT.?Think about it - there would not Be a 2700 
mile trail, called the PCT,?that we all use and love, were it not for all 
the real work done by those who ride and lead horses and mules. During my 
ride of the PCT, between Mexico and Canada, I met many hikers. They were all 
friendly to me.
?
By the way, I want to point out that LNT is practiced by all BCH that I 
know. The PCTA (contact Anitra Kass and Pete Fish) will confirm to you that 
there are volunteer BCH members who are also Section Chiefs, who, all along 
the PCT,?use their horses and mules and equipment - and time -?to maintain, 
improve, and create new routes for the PCT. I also know of Packers who clear 
trails of down trees and other obstacles?(they use the trails)?and pack in 
supplies and equipment, at no charge,?to volunteer trail workers. When we, 
BCH,?leave a work site we LNT.? Ray Drasher is Chief in my Section, Section 
D, in S. Cal. A new, and much more scenic route, through Vasquez Rocks has 
been identified by the PCT Assn. Sometime in the next?one to? three years, 
we will be working on it. We will need a lot of?volunteer help. There will 
be College students from Palmdale (They have helped on the current Vasquez 
Rocks Project) and High School students from a Charter
School in Valencia who will be learning and helping. There will also be PCTA 
volunteers. HERE IS MY QUESTION TO ROB AND MIKE:? CAN WE COUNT ON YOU TO 
COMMIT TO BE VOLUNTEERS AND?COME?AND?HELP US? I assure you that it will be a 
learning experience, and you will realize, and come to appreciate,?the 
extent that horses and mules are needed. You are welcome to join us. Get 
involved. Do your share. Realize that no one is paid for this work.?Contact 
Pete Fish of the PCTA, or BCH?Ray Drasher. You will be able to find their 
phone numbers and email addresses on the PCTA website.?I'm serious about 
this. Give something back. Don't just complain.?If Section D is too far for 
you, then contact the PCTA and find a project that you can reach nearer to 
where you live.
?
MendoRider-Hiker

________________________________
From: rob gratz <hikergratz at gmail.com>
To: chiefcowboy at verizon.net
Cc: Edward Anderson <mendoridered at yahoo.com>; Mike Yanasak 
<amuddler2 at gmail.com>; pct-l at backcountry.net
Sent: Friday, December 16, 2011 7:52 PM
Subject: Re: [pct-l] horses

You are obviously very ignorant of the reality, that, were it not for
horses and mules, there would not BE a PCT for you to hike on. The
trail that you are hiking on was probably, historically, a horse
trail.

sorry ed your wrong. tradtional horse trails went east to west across
the ranges,not north and south.the only traditional horse trails i can
find were short segents to short lived mining operations.
here is the reality. the p.c.t. was origionaly envisioned as a hiking
trail,horseman wanted in on the action,so as a political compamise
they were allowed.
the truth is the p.c.t. could have been? constructed cheaper sooner
and on a better route unforntantly it had to be built to horse
standards.thats why nowadays we have to hike many extra
miles,ex.(fuller ridge to cabazon)or do road walks(seiad valley)

i did`nt really want to weigh in on this,but with a new crop of
horseman maybe i will get a honest answer.ive been on this list 12
years and almost every year ive posed this question to dozens of
horseman;

200 lb.hikers have to clean up after themselvesyou have to clean up
after your 50lb? dog. why do horseman? feel they don`t have to clean
up after their 800-1000lb animal .without minamizing the problem(it`s
not that bad,it`s just oats)without pointing out your good deeds(trail
work)why are horseman the only group exempt from leave no trace?

On 12/16/11, chiefcowboy at verizon.net <chiefcowboy at verizon.net> wrote:
> Well said Ed.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Edward Anderson
> Sent: Friday, December 16, 2011 3:15 PM
> To: Mike Yanasak ; pct-l at backcountry.net
> Subject: Re: [pct-l] horses
>
> You are obviously very ignorant of the reality, that, were it not for 
> horses
> and mules, there would not BE a PCT for you to hike on. The trail that you
> are hiking on was probably, historically, a horse trail. Backpacking came
> later. The creation and ongoing maintenance of the trails is done by 
> people
> (often volunteers) who need horses and mules to carry the required 
> equipment
> and materials. Question: When did you last volunteer to help? Do you just
> hike on the PCT?? If you do, you can't help but sometimes seeing others
> working on the trail. Notice that they have horses and mules tied nearby.
> That's how the tools, equipment , materials and often also the food and
> water needed for the workers got there.
> MendoRider-Hiker
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Mike Yanasak <amuddler2 at gmail.com>
> To: shon mcganty <smcganty at yahoo.com>
> Cc: "pct-l at backcountry.net" <pct-l at backcountry.net>
> Sent: Friday, December 16, 2011 12:28 PM
> Subject: Re: [pct-l] horses
>
> I look upon horses and mules as a pox on the trails--especially during
> hunting season.? I hike mostly in the N. Cascades of Washington.? Some
> trails have become essentially ditches at least two feet deep (check out
> the area between Reflection Lake and White Pass as well as the trail,
> although not PCT, between Holden and Lyman Lake.? I have also seen horses
> tied to bushes 15' from the edge of the lake while their owners were
> fishing).
>
> I weigh 183 lbs. (plus my pack) and I wear relatively soft-soled shoes.? 
> My
> impact on the trail in most situations is relatively minor.? Now consider
> the average hunter:? They sit on their asses atop a horse weighing maybe
> 1,000 lbs., and they often have two other horses in tow (one to carry all
> their incredibly extensive gear, and one to haul out the carcass of a deer
> or bear(!!!) that they might bag.? Each of the horses have 4 *STEEL
> SHOD*feet (that's a lotta weight--and a lotta hard feet).? 3,000 lbs.
> and 12
> feet!).? Is it maybe possible that one individual hunter might impact the
> trail...oh, maybe 20 times more than I?? During hunting season (along 
> about
> September), most water sources are becoming somewhat scarce.? The horse
> guys can haul in huge amounts of drinking water for themselves and then 
> are
> free to lead their stock to the tiny streams and seeps and allow them to
> stand there drinking and urinating/crapping in the same water that I will
> have to drink (check out the approved camping area at White Pass).
> I have seen the Forest Service contractors frantically getting the trails
> leading to the most popular hunting areas into shape in early September so
> as to not inconvenience the hunters, and even stacking up firewood for
> their use.? I don't know why.? When I mentioned this to a ranger, he
> suggested I should write my congressman :-)
>
> Horses are sort of like Mom and apple pie.? Inviolate, don't mess with
> them.? And while I have sometimes envied the ability of horsemen to easily
> travel such long distances in relative comfort, I don't think it's right.
>
> Perhaps a very costly permit hanging from each horses tail would 
> discourage
> some of that overuse, while helping to pay for some of the mitigation...
>
> Nader
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Fri, Dec 16, 2011 at 11:30 AM, shon mcganty <smcganty at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> I'm so happy with the holiday season and my wonderful memories of the 
>> PCT,
>> but thinking about the encounters I've had with horsemen and their effect
>> on my wilderness exeriences will always get me down.
>>
>> Perhaps the horsemen on this list can correct any mis-information I have,
>> and comments are welcome, but my general experience with horse riders has
>> been largely negative.
>>
>> First, in my home state of Washington I'd guess the majority of horsemen
>> are out there to hunt, or set up camps for the upcoming hunting season.
>> Only a few are out there in the same manner as a hiker, that is the enjoy
>> the wilderness as it is.? Horsemen, in my admittedly limited view, get 
>> out
>> in the wood and try to change it to suit their needs and/or make it more
>> like home.
>>
>> This includes building large small house-sized tarp camps, cutting down
>> live trees to make structures and firewood, hauling up iron grills to
>> place
>> over fires and leave them there, bring beer and carelessly discard them 
>> in
>> the woods.
>>
>> I've had several times were I was treated bad by horsemen.? Almost broke
>> out in a fight once.? I've gotten bad attitudes from them, and yes it 
>> feel
>> like I'm looked down upon.? Once I over heard one talk about backpackers
>> as
>> the enemy, we are what's wrong with the west, I recall him saying.? I'm
>> making a guess that it's due to the lack of freedom they have in
>> congress-designated wildernesses, where there are rules limiting group
>> size, use of mechanized machines, ect.? They seem to look at backbackers
>> has "liberals," with our desire for protection of the land and life being
>> following by rules (from using life bait like frogs, limiting the number
>> of
>> fish/game caught, or type of fish, or amound of land where trees can be
>> harvested).
>>
>> Then there are times where a trail skirts the edge or goes through a
>> meadow, and there are two or three sets of trail ruts.? If anyone knows
>> the
>> answer as to if hikers play or role I'd love to know, but it's always
>> worse
>> in areas frequented, not by hikers, but by horses.? The worst I've seen 
>> is
>> six or seven parralel ruts, creating a 15 foot wide cut in the earth like
>> a
>> three-lane jeep road, which looks horrible.? The two worse examples were
>> in
>> Yosemite's valleys (crowed with both hikers and pack trains) and the
>> central Pasayten Wilderness (remote area not heavily used by hikers but
>> used lots by horsemen).? I'm just guessing it's not the hikers making
>> those
>> (please correct me if I'm wrong here), but horses.? I know most hikers
>> (I'll admit I do it sometimes) with skirt a wet trail to keep those feet
>> dry, but why do horses do it?? I'm assuming there's a risk of a turned
>> ankle because horses can't see under the water.? If that's the case, 
>> would
>> the
>>? horse be less likely to hurt an ankle if the horse lost 150+ lbs (ie. 
>>the
>> rider got off)?
>>
>> I try to limit my frustration by saying the horsemen played a large role
>> in creating these trails, and maintaining them, but I wonder about the
>> accuracy of this sometimes.
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> Shon
>> _______________________________________________
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>>
>
>
>
> --
> "I'll believe corporations are people when Texas executes one."
> (anon.)
> ?The comfort of the rich depends upon an abundant supply of the poor."
> (Voltaire)
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------------------------------

Message: 13
Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2011 07:22:41 -0800
From: Palomino <palomino.pct at gmail.com>
Subject: [pct-l] More animal news to fuss about
To: PCT-L <pct-l at backcountry.net>
Message-ID:
<CAMCEgfU6FfOoANM=h8pYhBNAYXOiOAJSOb9rfCyxMAyL2MzyEA at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

http://www.mercurynews.com/science/ci_19564461?source=autofeed#

If you are getting tired of fussing about horses and dogs and what to
do about poo, here 's some news about wolves near Crater Lake you can
sink your teeth into...ah-oooo werewolves of Oregon!

Palomino

------------------------------

Message: 14
Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2011 11:24:47 -0500 (EST)
From: hiker97 at aol.com
Subject: Re: [pct-l] Dogs on the trail
To: reinholdmetzger at cox.net, pct-l at backcountry.net,
losthiker at sisqtel.net, josie1066 at gmail.com, completewalker at gmail.com,
montedodge at msn.com, gailpl2003 at yahoo.com, melaniekclarke at gmail.com
Message-ID: <8CE8AEF873DBA5B-DE8-9FCB8 at webmail-d090.sysops.aol.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

JMT Snow Bunny Reinhold writes: Hi gang,It seems that some off you had 
encounters with unfriendly dogs on the trail.  Dogs always seem to like me 
and seem to sense that I like them....except for "Deem's" dog, who continued 
to growl at me a few years ago at the KO. Here is my advise on how to 
respond to an unfriendly dog on the trail.
-----------------------------------
Switchback replies: Just carry some pepper spray on the trail for animals 
and humans.  It is light, effective, and simple to use (not down wind).  I 
have carried it for 40 years on and off the trail with no problems.

------------------------------

Message: 15
Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2011 11:34:31 -0500
From: Ernie Castillo <erniec01 at hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [pct-l] More animal news to fuss about
To: <palomino.pct at gmail.com>, <pct-l at backcountry.net>
Message-ID: <COL112-W343F7FC63A2066D4E2AD3DD8A10 at phx.gbl>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

Are we sure The Oregon wolf, known as OR7 isn't Switchback in wolf's 
clothing?

Ernie Castillo
PCT Class of 1980

> Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2011 07:22:41 -0800
> From: palomino.pct at gmail.com
> To: pct-l at backcountry.net
> Subject: [pct-l] More animal news to fuss about
>
> http://www.mercurynews.com/science/ci_19564461?source=autofeed#
>
> If you are getting tired of fussing about horses and dogs and what to
> do about poo, here 's some news about wolves near Crater Lake you can
> sink your teeth into...ah-oooo werewolves of Oregon!
>
> Palomino

------------------------------

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End of Pct-L Digest, Vol 48, Issue 19
************************************* 