[pct-l] horses

Fri Dec 16 21:52:13 CST 2011

You are obviously very ignorant of the reality, that, were it not for
horses and mules, there would not BE a PCT for you to hike on. The
trail that you are hiking on was probably, historically, a horse
trail.

sorry ed your wrong. tradtional horse trails went east to west across
the ranges,not north and south.the only traditional horse trails i can
find were short segents to short lived mining operations.
here is the reality. the p.c.t. was origionaly envisioned as a hiking
trail,horseman wanted in on the action,so as a political compamise
they were allowed.
the truth is the p.c.t. could have been  constructed cheaper sooner
and on a better route unforntantly it had to be built to horse
standards.thats why nowadays we have to hike many extra
miles,ex.(fuller ridge to cabazon)or do road walks(seiad valley)

i did`nt really want to weigh in on this,but with a new crop of
horseman maybe i will get a honest answer.ive been on this list 12
years and almost every year ive posed this question to dozens of
horseman;

200 lb.hikers have to clean up after themselvesyou have to clean up
after your 50lb  dog. why do horseman  feel they don`t have to clean
up after their 800-1000lb animal .without minamizing the problem(it`s
not that bad,it`s just oats)without pointing out your good deeds(trail
work)why are horseman the only group exempt from leave no trace?

On 12/16/11, chiefcowboy at verizon.net <chiefcowboy at verizon.net> wrote:
> Well said Ed.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Edward Anderson
> Sent: Friday, December 16, 2011 3:15 PM
> To: Mike Yanasak ; pct-l at backcountry.net
> Subject: Re: [pct-l] horses
>
> You are obviously very ignorant of the reality, that, were it not for horses
> and mules, there would not BE a PCT for you to hike on. The trail that you
> are hiking on was probably, historically, a horse trail. Backpacking came
> later. The creation and ongoing maintenance of the trails is done by people
> (often volunteers) who need horses and mules to carry the required equipment
> and materials. Question: When did you last volunteer to help? Do you just
> hike on the PCT?  If you do, you can't help but sometimes seeing others
> working on the trail. Notice that they have horses and mules tied nearby.
> That's how the tools, equipment , materials and often also the food and
> water needed for the workers got there.
> MendoRider-Hiker
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Mike Yanasak <amuddler2 at gmail.com>
> To: shon mcganty <smcganty at yahoo.com>
> Cc: "pct-l at backcountry.net" <pct-l at backcountry.net>
> Sent: Friday, December 16, 2011 12:28 PM
> Subject: Re: [pct-l] horses
>
> I look upon horses and mules as a pox on the trails--especially during
> hunting season.  I hike mostly in the N. Cascades of Washington.  Some
> trails have become essentially ditches at least two feet deep (check out
> the area between Reflection Lake and White Pass as well as the trail,
> although not PCT, between Holden and Lyman Lake.  I have also seen horses
> tied to bushes 15' from the edge of the lake while their owners were
> fishing).
>
> I weigh 183 lbs. (plus my pack) and I wear relatively soft-soled shoes.  My
> impact on the trail in most situations is relatively minor.  Now consider
> the average hunter:  They sit on their asses atop a horse weighing maybe
> 1,000 lbs., and they often have two other horses in tow (one to carry all
> their incredibly extensive gear, and one to haul out the carcass of a deer
> or bear(!!!) that they might bag.  Each of the horses have 4 *STEEL
> SHOD*feet (that's a lotta weight--and a lotta hard feet).  3,000 lbs.
> and 12
> feet!).  Is it maybe possible that one individual hunter might impact the
> trail...oh, maybe 20 times more than I?  During hunting season (along about
> September), most water sources are becoming somewhat scarce.  The horse
> guys can haul in huge amounts of drinking water for themselves and then are
> free to lead their stock to the tiny streams and seeps and allow them to
> stand there drinking and urinating/crapping in the same water that I will
> have to drink (check out the approved camping area at White Pass).
> I have seen the Forest Service contractors frantically getting the trails
> leading to the most popular hunting areas into shape in early September so
> as to not inconvenience the hunters, and even stacking up firewood for
> their use.  I don't know why.  When I mentioned this to a ranger, he
> suggested I should write my congressman :-)
>
> Horses are sort of like Mom and apple pie.  Inviolate, don't mess with
> them.  And while I have sometimes envied the ability of horsemen to easily
> travel such long distances in relative comfort, I don't think it's right.
>
> Perhaps a very costly permit hanging from each horses tail would discourage
> some of that overuse, while helping to pay for some of the mitigation...
>
> Nader
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Fri, Dec 16, 2011 at 11:30 AM, shon mcganty <smcganty at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> I'm so happy with the holiday season and my wonderful memories of the PCT,
>> but thinking about the encounters I've had with horsemen and their effect
>> on my wilderness exeriences will always get me down.
>>
>> Perhaps the horsemen on this list can correct any mis-information I have,
>> and comments are welcome, but my general experience with horse riders has
>> been largely negative.
>>
>> First, in my home state of Washington I'd guess the majority of horsemen
>> are out there to hunt, or set up camps for the upcoming hunting season.
>> Only a few are out there in the same manner as a hiker, that is the enjoy
>> the wilderness as it is.  Horsemen, in my admittedly limited view, get out
>> in the wood and try to change it to suit their needs and/or make it more
>> like home.
>>
>> This includes building large small house-sized tarp camps, cutting down
>> live trees to make structures and firewood, hauling up iron grills to
>> place
>> over fires and leave them there, bring beer and carelessly discard them in
>> the woods.
>>
>> I've had several times were I was treated bad by horsemen.  Almost broke
>> out in a fight once.  I've gotten bad attitudes from them, and yes it feel
>> like I'm looked down upon.  Once I over heard one talk about backpackers
>> as
>> the enemy, we are what's wrong with the west, I recall him saying.  I'm
>> making a guess that it's due to the lack of freedom they have in
>> congress-designated wildernesses, where there are rules limiting group
>> size, use of mechanized machines, ect.  They seem to look at backbackers
>> has "liberals," with our desire for protection of the land and life being
>> following by rules (from using life bait like frogs, limiting the number
>> of
>> fish/game caught, or type of fish, or amound of land where trees can be
>> harvested).
>>
>> Then there are times where a trail skirts the edge or goes through a
>> meadow, and there are two or three sets of trail ruts.  If anyone knows
>> the
>> answer as to if hikers play or role I'd love to know, but it's always
>> worse
>> in areas frequented, not by hikers, but by horses.  The worst I've seen is
>> six or seven parralel ruts, creating a 15 foot wide cut in the earth like
>> a
>> three-lane jeep road, which looks horrible.  The two worse examples were
>> in
>> Yosemite's valleys (crowed with both hikers and pack trains) and the
>> central Pasayten Wilderness (remote area not heavily used by hikers but
>> used lots by horsemen).  I'm just guessing it's not the hikers making
>> those
>> (please correct me if I'm wrong here), but horses.  I know most hikers
>> (I'll admit I do it sometimes) with skirt a wet trail to keep those feet
>> dry, but why do horses do it?  I'm assuming there's a risk of a turned
>> ankle because horses can't see under the water.  If that's the case, would
>> the
>>  horse be less likely to hurt an ankle if the horse lost 150+ lbs (ie. the
>> rider got off)?
>>
>> I try to limit my frustration by saying the horsemen played a large role
>> in creating these trails, and maintaining them, but I wonder about the
>> accuracy of this sometimes.
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> Shon
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>
>
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