[pct-l] Pct-L Digest, Vol 48, Issue 10

Sun Dec 11 10:13:44 CST 2011

Alan,
Definately bring crampons. You could bring lightweight microspikes, but, for safety, you should bring crampons for June in the Sierra, beginning with Forester Pass. I would also recommend bringing an ice as well. If you possibly can, take Neds Class to learn about safe travel in the snow. You will be crossing lots of snow on the high passes in June. 

I plan to HIKE NOBO from Horseshoe Meadows to Yosemite Valley this summer. I won't be starting until at least mid-July as I plan to fish a lot to supplement the food that I carry. I will, of course, bring my ice axe and also one hiking pole. Schroomer had recommended the hiking pole in addition to the ice axe. I have now tried that combination and it works well. Thanks Schroomer. I first hiked the John Muir Trail in 1956 and had the ice axe. I used it as a walking stick. I had bought it in 1954 and used it on all hikes and on climbs as well when there was snow. That was long before hiking poles were "invented". In those days I never saw anyone with hiking poles. I first saw hiking poles, I think, in the late seventies.
MendoRider-Hiker

________________________________
 From: alantcarpenter <alantcarpenter at comcast.net>
To: pct-l at backcountry.net 
Sent: Saturday, December 10, 2011 4:11 PM
Subject: Re: [pct-l] Pct-L Digest, Vol 48, Issue 10

Re: Early start

Ned says "Of course, carry crampons..." From what I have been able to learn
from trail journals and books, very few PCT through hikers have used
crampons.  Am I missing something?  Is my sample of PCT through hikers
defective?  Have PCT through hikers in the Sierras been reckless in not
having crampons in most years?  Has snow in the Sierras in June been much
deeper than the long-term average over the past few years, thus motivating
the carry crampons advice?  Is the current carry crampons advice partly a
result of the availability of light-weight, 10-point crampons, such as the
Katoola KTS, that did not exist before? - Alan Carpenter

-----Original Message-----
From: pct-l-bounces at backcountry.net [mailto:pct-l-bounces at backcountry.net]
On Behalf Of pct-l-request at backcountry.net
Sent: Saturday, December 10, 2011 11:00 AM
To: pct-l at backcountry.net
Subject: Pct-L Digest, Vol 48, Issue 10

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Today's Topics:

   1. Re: Pct-L Digest, Vol 48, Issue 8 (Meridith Rosendahl)
   2. Re: Early start (Brick Robbins)
   3. Re: Section hiking in April (Sir Mixalot)
   4. My Apologies RE: Need Gear (mark utzman)
   5. Re: PCT Snow vs Winter Mountaineering
      (Diane Soini of Santa Barbara Hikes)
   6. Re: Early start (Diane Soini of Santa Barbara Hikes)
   7. Re: Early start, snow reality taught (ned at mountaineducation.org)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Fri, 9 Dec 2011 10:07:20 -0800
From: Meridith Rosendahl <meridith.rosendahl at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [pct-l] Pct-L Digest, Vol 48, Issue 8
To: pct-l at backcountry.net
Cc: mark utzman <blackbelthiker at gmail.com>
Message-ID:
    <CAEJJFnq=EexaT5sc_gDtFCzOZemO+tgcdK1RY_8VN3TLojRJLg at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

This is Skeeter (the dog) and Tails, the hiker. ?Skeeter made it to
the half way point where the photo was taken, through desert (although
it wasn't a hot year) and through 500 miles of snow. ?Tails said that
Skeeter was probably the only hiker who missed the snow.
http://tinyurl.com/88do6j2

This is Nean, aka Let it Be, with Delta, the dog. ?Let It Be has thru
hiked all the major trails, if my memory serves me, and Delta had also
hiked half of the PCT in 2011 thus far.
http://tinyurl.com/6sz8rcd

Both hikers would probably tell you what other hikers here have said,
that the dog comes first. ?Both dogs seemed happy and in very good
condition.

What other hikers with dogs have said about hiking at the dog's pace
and putting the pooch first is most important to the success of your
and your dog's hike.

Piper's Mom

I am doing a thru hike in 2012. Has anyone done a thru hike with their
dog???......... I love this
dog and I really want to do this hike. Thanks, ? Mark

------------------------------

Message: 2
Date: Fri, 9 Dec 2011 13:58:34 -0800
From: Brick Robbins <brick at brickrobbins.com>
Subject: Re: [pct-l] Early start
To: sandy boyd <sandylwes at yahoo.com>
Cc: pct <pct-l at backcountry.net>
Message-ID:
    <CALV1NzkDrMF585X91HWADAbPKGH81kaqNsM9w1RH9f8hx0YE0Q at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

On Thu, Dec 8, 2011 at 9:25 PM, sandy boyd <sandylwes at yahoo.com> wrote:
> Hey Gang-Im planning on starting my section hike from? Campo March
30th,2012- I have 30 days of leave of absence granted, hope I can use it to
make 400-500 miles hiking north. Does anyone have any thoughts on this??
....I have 1300 miles "under my pack", hoping to add a few more!!!!!

San Jacinto can be pretty tough that time of year,  make sure you
bring an ice axe, and depending on the snow condition, maybe Boots.

Also a GPS can be really handy once north of Red Taquitz.

Good luck

------------------------------

Message: 3
Date: Fri, 9 Dec 2011 14:43:13 -0800
From: Sir Mixalot <atetuna at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [pct-l] Section hiking in April
To: Kelsey Evans <kelsey.evans at gmail.com>
Cc: pct-l at backcountry.net
Message-ID:
    <CAKhNvBX-kSErf5oNw1kTsfUigKViMgv0ugHrxwho3j8uLjYFcg at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

Starting at the border?  It's too early to know, but it's easy to go around
the snow if you don't want to hike in it.

On Wed, Dec 7, 2011 at 2:23 PM, Kelsey Evans <kelsey.evans at gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi everybody,
>
> My husband and I have been planning on thru hiking the trail in 2012 for a
> few years now, BUT it just so happens that his band has their new album
> coming out soon and he needs to be around for touring - so he can't take 5
> months off.  Super bummer.  Anyway, we have compromised and found a way to
> hike a month of the trail in April, a month in September, and then finish
> the trail next summer.  I am getting nervous about section hiking the
first
> part of the trail that early.  Are we going to encounter lots of snow? I
am
> wondering if we should try to change that section to a little bit later?
> Any input you have is very appreciated.
>
> Thanks a lot!
> _______________________________________________
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------------------------------

Message: 4
Date: Fri, 9 Dec 2011 16:54:05 -0800
From: mark utzman <blackbelthiker at gmail.com>
Subject: [pct-l] My Apologies RE: Need Gear
To: pct-l at backcountry.net
Message-ID:
    <CAJ9hrMXnxThmgGUMWe-Lj6SfwNsVXOW+Um9YNSqMiiFd1wTwbg at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

Hey everybody,  you all have been wonderful in your replies and advice  to
some of my questions and concerns....I wish I would have known about the
pct-l years ago.....the comaradre and enthusiasm about the trail from some
of you is awesome.....and inspiring......Thank You All....but my last post
concerning needing gear for a thru-hike has met with some
negativity.....all but one of the responses to my post about needing gear
so far has been negative and critical.....a spirit of indifference and a
"Shame on you for asking...do it yourself !" tone....so.....my
apologies....I didn't mean to offend anyone....I'm sorry for asking....I
just needed some help, that's all......Mark

------------------------------

Message: 5
Date: Fri, 9 Dec 2011 18:24:35 -0800
From: Diane Soini of Santa Barbara Hikes <diane at santabarbarahikes.com>
Subject: Re: [pct-l] PCT Snow vs Winter Mountaineering
To: pct-l at backcountry.net
Message-ID:
    <D20B4DCB-E778-43F1-8EAA-711487C6826B at santabarbarahikes.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed

I don't have a lot of winter or snow experience but you are  
absolutely right about all those steep side slopes. That's  
practically all the PCT is. It took me until somewhere around Glenn  
Pass to have my V8 moment: Duh! This is a "Crest Trail." That's why  
it's always up so high.

I had a fantasy much of the way through So Cal anyway that I would  
design the Pacific Appropriate Trail where the trail would go through  
canyons so there was always plenty of fresh water and stay in the  
trees in the Sierras so you could enjoy the wildflowers and pretty  
meadows.

Diane

On Dec 9, 2011, at 10:00 AM, pct-l-request at backcountry.net wrote:

> I feel at home in the mountains in winter with crampons/ice axe/ 
> snowshoes.
> I feel at home on the PCT in the summer when I've been in 50% snow  
> situations.
> In the winter, not on the PCT, I'm usually going up or coming down.
> What makes me nervous is when I'm on a steep side slope.
> The PCT seems to have tons of steep side slope.
> So even for a person who feels comfortable with snow, I would still
> be worried, if it was myself. Of course snow conditions vary so  
> widely over the course
> of hours that it's hard to imagine saying anything definitive.
>
> Can someone else give me their opinion. I'm kind of ignorant on the  
> situation.
>
> Comfy

------------------------------

Message: 6
Date: Fri, 9 Dec 2011 18:27:31 -0800
From: Diane Soini of Santa Barbara Hikes <diane at santabarbarahikes.com>
Subject: Re: [pct-l] Early start
To: pct-l at backcountry.net
Message-ID:
    <7D94931E-B042-4957-86E7-340759B8BD8A at santabarbarahikes.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed

All I can say is enjoy yourself and stay safe in the San Jacintos.  
Have a great trip! It'll be beautiful. I'm envious.

On Dec 9, 2011, at 10:00 AM, pct-l-request at backcountry.net wrote:

> Hey Gang-Im planning on starting my section hike from? Campo March  
> 30th,2012- I have 30 days of leave of absence granted, hope I can  
> use it to make 400-500 miles hiking north. Does anyone have any  
> thoughts on this?? ....I have 1300 miles "under my pack", hoping to  
> add a few more!!!!!
> Sandy
> AKA train robber
> AKA Kahtoola

------------------------------

Message: 7
Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2011 08:51:48 -0800
From: <ned at mountaineducation.org>
Subject: Re: [pct-l] Early start, snow reality taught
To: "Jackie McDonnell" <yogihikes at gmail.com>,    "Robert Shuman"
    <robertbeanie at hotmail.com>
Cc: johnmuirtrail at yahoogroups.com, pct-l at backcountry.net
Message-ID: <6F3B8DEE5DD34E30B2A5BAC3685E0D10 at PacificCrestPC>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
    reply-type=original

In essence, we at Mountain Education don't disagree with Jackie at all, 
especially if you want to minimize contact with snow. If that is the case, 
start with the crowd after a "normal" winter, "late" after a heavy winter, 
and "early" can be done after a light winter. Don't, though, let fear of the

unknown stop you from enjoying one of the most beautiful under-snow areas of

the whole PCT! Just know what you're going into and be prepared for it.

Since 1982, we have usually logged about 70 days/nights on-snow in the 
sierra each year teaching how to get around safely. The conditions sure 
aren't like walking a dry, prepared trail that 
goes-where-you-want-so-you-don't-have-to-look-up. You have to be aware of 
your surroundings and your senses need to be awake when snow-hiking, but 
that is why we are in the mountains, anyway, to soak it all up!

Jackie accurately laid out what the conditions are like between the border 
and Kennedy Meadows during the "early" start months of March and early 
April. Expect consolidated snow (hard, compact morning surfaces that can be 
slippery and icy turning to a soft, post-holing type snowpack later in the 
day) wherever the trail is above snowline for the mountains you're in 
(Lagunas, Jacinto, San Bernardinos, etc). You can still receive new snow 
during those months (as we did the last two years), so plan for fresh stuff 
landing on your tent.

If you have the training and experience dealing with these conditions, 
which, as Jackie said most thru hikers do not, an "early" start is not 
dangerous (from the trained and experienced perspective). If you want more 
time on-trail, leave early and prepared with the requisite experience to 
deal with what you'll find. You may have to go around certain nasty and 
steep sections of trail (as Jackie pointed out one such is along the Desert 
Divide south of San Jacinto) by gaining the ridge above and following it 
cross-country on snow (as many did this past hiking season), but that is 
easy. Of course, carry crampons (not the climbing kind) for traction 
control, good, fat, strong, 2-section, cam-locked hiking poles with larger 
snow baskets (we highly advocate the constant use of the BD Whippet pole in 
one hand and a regular pole (like the BD Traverse pole) in the other, and 
know what you're doing. It is not a walk in the park, but a little skills 
training and mountain awareness for the summer hiker makes all the 
difference for a fun and safe snow-hike.

So, you'll need to realize the conditions that can be present near both 
borders early and late in the thru hiking season, make a personal decision 
whether you want to accept those prospects, then make sure you have the 
training and experience to deal with them safely before going ahead with 
your plans to start as desired.

How about a little Snow Reality explained:
    - Typical spring snow, when the snow pack has begun settling during 
longer hours of sunlight and warmer ambient temperatures, can be crusty or 
hard on the surface in the morning, consolidated throughout the pack (so it 
holds together well because it is melting and sticking together--better than

with fresh, airy snow in the mix), minimally prone to avalanche, melts 
during the morning, then you start postholing for the rest of the day until 
you reach "dry" ground and trail.
    - The Snowline in early May, when Mtn. Ed. runs its Snow Advanced Course

out of Kennedy Meadows over Forester Pass, can be as low as 9,500 feet after

a "heavy" winter. That's the elevation where the patches of snow disappear 
and you stay on top of a solid pack maybe 6 to 10 feet deep. As for SoCal, 
much of the same should be expected. When Mtn. Ed. teaches its satellite SBC

course up on San Jacinto right after the Kickoff (for the years when enough 
thrus request the course), the snow depth has been around 3 to 5 feet deep 
at Saddle Junction with the pack hard and easy to walk on during the morning

hours under trees. Just South of there is the Desert Divide with its issues 
I'll talk about in a moment.
    - Route selection is wide open to you. The trail is covered. You can go 
wherever you want and there are no rocks, roots, step-ups or downs, nothing.

Cut your own trail! If the way ahead of you looks slippery, go around. If 
the dry trail suddenly dives under a snow bank, simply climb up it (toe-in 
or traverse), walk over the top of the bank, and look for the trail coming 
out the other side. If the snow bank is the beginning of a huge snow field, 
then figure out where the trail is going and exactly where you are (map 
reading skills), and walk any line you want to get there. If the summer 
trail goes where it is now too dangerously steep, follow another route. You 
do not have to stay on top of the trail all the time! Simply know all the 
time where the trail is and where you are in relation to it. You can be 
following safe routes over the snow by staying in the valley or on the ridge

where you won't fall off the mountain while the trail is off to the side. 
Follow creeks (there are no bushes to whack through!), valleys, ridges which

are the safest. Constantly watch for recognizable landmarks to make sure 
you're where you want to be, a certain shaped lake, bend in a creek, an old 
avalanche path, a rock outcropping on the map, etc.. So, the Desert Divide's

nasty east-facing trail cuts can be simply avoided by taking a route along 
the ridge above it! Always choose routes within your means and travel 
prepared. A fall can happen to the experienced, too. Don't be hasty.
    - Traversing over/across steep snow is the most hazardous. Microspikes 
are not God's answer to the traction solution since they can roll right off 
your shoe. Ask the manufacturer, if your selection of traction device is 
designed for higher angle snow traversing. Crampons are the answer and have 
kept us secure and happy for years of teaching early-season snow-hiking 
along the JMT/PCT. Always stay balanced. Never hurry until conditions 
permit/allow. Always be ready to self-arrest when you fall and start sliding

out of control down to the trees or rocks below. Know how to identify 
hazardous conditions ahead and when to have your Whippet or ice axe in hand 
and at the ready. It's beautiful out there and incredibly rewarding, but you

need to be wise to remain safe. It is not a walk in the park along a 
prepared trail. You're in God's Country and you need to be aware and not 
naive or inexperienced.
    - An early start may mean rain or snow might fall, muddy trail, some 
creeks flowing in SoCal that might not otherwise be there if you left later,

and firm snow to walk on where you find it. Just be prepared for them.
    - A late ending across the 49th parallel into Canada may mean fresh and 
deep snow you may not be able to wallow through that effectively stops the 
triumphant end of your 5 or 6 month thru hike. According to the rangers in 
Manning, hike-stopping snow can begin to fall anytime after mid-September, 
so consider planning to end your dream-hike by then. Fresh snow is nothing 
like consolidated snow! Hiking into October may have been possible for some 
in the past, but the start timing of each year's storms is a gamble you have

to accept if you end up running late in your schedule.

    - How to deal with snow-hiking:
    Once you hit the spring snow pack, it doesn't matter whether there is 2 
feet or 10 feet deep, you walk on it the same way. Navigation is by line of 
sight with map and compass to provide assurance. If you're in the trees and 
can't see out, a GPS unit with Halfmile's maps is essential for the 
experienced. Learn how to pick a route to where you want to go that is 
direct, manageable for your skill set, avoids nasty creek crossings (if you 
go early, these may still be covered in snow or snow-bridges), rocks, and 
slippery traverses, still keeps you close to the "trail," and is safe for 
all in your group to stay together.
    If the surface is hard, crusty, or icy, you'll need some sort of 
traction device, like the Kahtoola KTS crampons (not the Microspikes) for 
those steep ascents, descents, and traverses, especially. If your route 
turns steep, whether during a traverse or that simple ascent or descent off 
a pass, you'll need some sort of self-arrest device like the Black Diamond 
Whippet pole in one hand should you fall. Your ice axe can be a useful 
"rudder" while glissading down any steep, soft and long slope. Shorter 
steep, soft descents are best handled by heel-plunging or boot-skiing.
    Yes, the better and more definitive device is an ice axe, but, unless 
you can forecast where you'll need to take it off your pack and put it in 
hand, it most likely won't be at-the-ready, in your hand when you need it to

self-arrest after the fall while the Whippet will be! For those final and 
steep conditions, or anytime where you're on a hard, steep, slick crust, 
you'll need an axe in your uphill hand as an anchor should you slip and for 
balance (the continual monitoring and correcting of your balance is critical

all the time when on snow to stay safe, so go slow and don't "push" too 
aggressively off your toes as on dry ground).
    Cutting switchbacks up or down a climb, whether just to get over a 
house-sized hump in the snow or an entire pass, requires the talent to 
remain balanced and kick steps in the snow. For that, a firm-edged boot is 
best, but many thrus get by with their trailrunners on soft snow (how they 
do it on hard snow, I do not know).

If your reason for hiking the Pacific Crest Trail is to experience a hiking 
adventure that spans three seasons and changes your life, congratulations, 
you have found your opportunity! Now, go into it with your eyes open. If you

have any other questions about snow travel and snow-hiking, please feel free

to email back. We have snow skills training courses from January to August, 
mainly in the Sierra along the PCT and one this year on South Sister in 
Oregon.

May God bless your desires and that your dreams become your reality!

"Just remember, Be Careful out there!"

Ned Tibbits, Director
Mountain Education
South Lake Tahoe, Ca. 96150
    P: 888-996-8333
    F: 530-541-1456
    C: 530-721-1551
    http://www.mountaineducation.org

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