[pct-l] Gear for sale.

[John Abela]

Hello again,

> Hey, thank you. That was exactly the sort of response I was, in my own poor
> fashion, trying to elicit. Your negatives all correspond to my doubts, and
> your positives to what I'm hearing from other people.

Good to hear!

> I'm not particularly
> worried about having a less than ideal set-up for 5 months, but as long as I
> have time to change it up I may as well be strategic.

Yeppers, so long as you have some backup gear at home that you can
have sent your way if plan-a does not work out for ya. Costs a
crapload of money to get a company to overnight something to you when
you are on the trail and want to take as few zero days as possible.

> I really do like the thing (though I am 6'1) and would love to have it in my
> set. But I am wondering if I shouldn't save a bit of that weight. Like you
> hinted, I'm not sure the PCT will be throwing enough at me to justify the
> bombshelter.

Suppose that would all come down to your experience level. Are you
ready to take on the flying bugs of NorCal and elsewhere without a bug
net? Are you ready for the ant infestations without a bug net? Are you
comfortable/experienced under a tarp and bivy? All questions that have
to be asked.

Suffice to say it just all comes down to experience, budget, and what
you want as a base weight.

> It comes down to me thinking I may want the tarp and beak but not the insert
> (it is really well made, but definitely heavy). I'm starting to think I may
> get a different insert for bug country/rainy washington. Maybe a bivy, maybe
> just a mozzy net.

The thing that makes the Echo Insert to awesome is the fact that it is
heavy cuben fiber and has a very high bathtub. That is why it is my
go-to setup. That is also why it weights 15.5 ounces. But still, your
talking about a sub 2 pound tent setup... that's lighter than 95% of
the tents that other folks will be lugging around. If you find anybody
else on the PCT this year with a double wall tent that is under 15
ounces, chances are that you and that other person will probably be
using the same tent.

Of course, there will be those out there with a SMD Gatewood
Cape/SerenityNet (combined 16 ounces) and those who are tarp only
folks who are down around 3.5 ounces (MLD Cuben Fiber Mini Solo Tarp)
and a few guys with the ZPacks Hexamid Solo Tent w/screen (8.2 oz) but
in the end it is not a weight game, it's a personal success/failure
game - and stop and consider how much of your hike depends upon sleep.

I suppose I am just not tough enough to do a bivy setup... or, I just
like my full enclosures... however you want to look at it... I
personally prefer either cowboy or fully enclosed. shrugs

> Have you found much need for the rear wall in practical application during
> rainstorms?

Yes. In fact I have had it not be enough - but just once. I have been
one of the big advocates for a foot end beak for the Echo systems, and
am constantly bugging HMG to add on (but it really screws with the
structural design in having one) But again remember, I live in a
rainforest... we had 31 days of straight rain. That is more rain than
you will probably encounter total on the PCT this year.

> Anyway, thanks again for such a great reply.

Sure thing - that is what the pct-l is all about! I have learned
sooooo much from a lot of folks on this mailing list over the last few
months.

> Oh, and though you offered the most dissuasive recommendation I've seen for
> the hexamid set-up yet (you seem to confirm some of my initial concerns on
> size - are you 6'+?)

Yeah, I hope I did not come across as trash-talking it. I waited 7
weeks for it and I am sooo very glad I ordered it. If nothing else it
taught me a valuable lesson... sometimes, going too light is light.

I am 6'1 and that is really where the problem comes into play (for me)
with the ZPacks HexaNet. The Hexamid tarp is beyond awesome. Freaking
love the design of the tarp. It handled pure abuse this weekend while
on the ocean and even worse abuse in a massive wind storm we had last
week (I have about 7 tents setup in my backyard 24/7 for product
testing) and without a doubt the ZPacks Hexamid has been able to
withstand very hard wind better than any other tent/tarp I have
encountered. As for the insert... it is not bad, I hope I did not
present it that way. It is easier to turn around in than my Echo 1. I
can also sleep in it with my head at either end. I worked directly
with Joe when he was designing it and thus is the reason for the
higher bathtub that the HexaNet Solo Bug Shelter has. Sure it is not
as high as the Echo but it is going to be way more than enough for
anything but setting up in the middle of a pond. I do hit my head when
I sit up, but the netting is much looser than the netting inside of
the Echos, so that is nice. When you get around to setting up your
Echo you will see what I mean by that. When I finish up writing my
review for the ZPacks (over at redwoodoutdoors.com) the *only*
negative mark it will get is the pure pain getting into and out of it
- with the optional beak. It really does force you to get on your
hands and knees to get into/outof it. A buddy who went hiking with me
on the Lost Coast Trail were both talking about it on the way home and
we both agreed, that is the only negative aspect to this setup -
beyond that this is one very very awesome 12.4 ounces double wall
tent. What I ended up doing was rolling up the optional beak and that
greatly helped getting into and out of it. The only time you really
need the optional beak is if there is some serious rain, so might as
well just leave it rolled up anyway - provides more air flow. Like
most of these CF tents, they get hellishly hot in the sun and any air
flow you can get in them is beyond desirable.

John



> On Wed, Apr 13, 2011 at 11:03 PM, John Abela <abela at johnabela.com> wrote:
>>
>> Hey Brendan,
>>
>> I sooo badly wanted to score the Camo version but I was totally out of
>> money.
>>
>> I think your decision on using the HMG Echo should be based upon a
>> number of things:
>>
>> Negatives:
>>
>> (a) you spent a crap load of money on it, if you do not like it can
>> you sell it quickly and buy something else in time to test it and see
>> if you like it? (aka: the typical argument for not planning to hike
>> the PCT months in advance and thoroughly test your gear)
>>
>> (b) if you do not like head-only entrance tents than this presents
>> problems.
>>
>> (c) if you are at or around 6 feet tall this thing sucks to move
>> around in (sitting up and hitting your head, trying to spin around
>> inside is very hard)
>>
>> (d) if you just want to use a tarp most of the time, there are a lot
>> lighter options out there for a cf tarp
>>
>> (e) the weight of the insert is considerably more than other inserts
>> out there (but none are even close to being as awesome as this one)
>>
>>
>> Positives:
>>
>> (a) the HMG Echo is the most bomb proof tent I have ever used. Nothing
>> you encounter on the PCT will come close to putting the Echo to a real
>> test.
>>
>> (b) like other modular systems, in those areas where you might not
>> need an insert, you can just take the tarp.
>>
>> (c) the highest bathtub in the industry. nice for if you have a
>> massive NeoAir and want to make sure you don't have water come over
>> the bathtub sidewalls, the Echo is the best out there.
>>
>> (d) performance-to-weight ratio of the Echo is perhaps the best that
>> money can buy.
>>
>> (e) pack ability is significantly smaller compared to TarpTent and MSR
>> and other tents out there. My ZPacks Hexa/Inset is the only thing I
>> have found that packs smaller (and only by about 1/2 inch)
>>
>>
>> Personally I setup both the Tarp and the Insert all the time as I
>> rarely am able to cowboy camp here in the middle of the Redwood forest
>> because well, it's a rain forest... it's always raining.
>>
>>
>> For me, hiking the PCT I suppose it all comes down to two things:
>>
>> (1) how much weight do I want to carry?
>> (2) how much comfort do I want to have?
>>
>> The answer to number one is more and more becoming defined by my
>> answer to number two. I could just as easily do a decent percentage of
>> the PCT with a sub 5 lb BPW setup as I could a sub 10. I have the gear
>> to do both and regularly camp with both. My 3.78 lb setup would
>> probably work for the vast majority of the PCT with the exception of
>> the cold regions. Likewise my 7.2 lb setup would work just as well for
>> probably everywhere on the PCT. But, in all honestly, I have been able
>> to prove to myself that I have the skills necessary to take it down
>> really light and do ok (and really, I think most folks getting that
>> low do it for the education and skills you learn, as I did/have) but
>> in the end, screw it, I want some comfort in my life - especially if I
>> am going to be on the trail for weeks (or months).
>>
>> Just to clarify, I have not yet hiked the PCT - my scheduled start
>> date is April 2012.
>>
>> I postponed the PCT this year in an attempt to do the Bigfoot Trail
>> later this year.
>>
>> So to try to answer your questions...
>>
>> Do I think the HMG Echo II is too big? Nope. The tarp might present
>> problems in some areas that are tight - it is after all a 51” tarp -
>> and with gidelines you are stretched out to around 75"
>>
>> At the same time I would answer my own questions about it: Is it
>> comfortable? The answer to that is yes and no. If you are use to a
>> nice size entrance and being able to sit up and move around than the
>> HMG Echo II is going to be ruff - considering this is much more than
>> just a two or three day trip... 150+ nights you have to spend in your
>> tent if you do not cowboy camp. But than again, one should not expect
>> luxury in a system this size.
>>
>> Compared to my TarpTent Rainbow the Echo (both I and II) are vastly
>> tighter and smaller. I love the ability to sit up anywhere inside of
>> my Rainbow and have head room. I love the ability to turn around
>> inside of it, I love the ability to sleep with my head at either end
>> of it - all things that are very hard to do with an Echo. But that is
>> a sacrifice one makes with these tents.
>>
>> Compared to my ZPacks Hexamid Solo Tarp and Bug Insert, the HMG Echo
>> II feels like a mansion. But the ZPacks setup is the worlds lightest
>> double wall tent setup in the world AFAIAA (at 14 oz) and it does just
>> fine. I just hike the Lost Coast Trail with my ZPacks setup. But you
>> know what, I had to sacrifice a whole lot of comfort. Getting into it
>> required I get on all four and literally crawl into the thing (even
>> harder than getting into the HMG Echo I). There is very little
>> headroom (less than the Echo I) and while it feels like it has a bit
>> more room inside than the Echo I, the SMD Gatewood Cape is actually
>> wider feeling than it is. But again, this is the price we pay for
>> wanting to go smaller and lighter.
>>
>> I am just not going to answer "should you take it with you" Brendan.
>> Sorry. I think it is foolish to hike a 2500 mile trail without having
>> proven the gear in your pack is what you want in there, what you like,
>> what works for you. Do not mean to sound like a jerk here and please
>> do not think that. It is just unimaganable that anybody would want to
>> hike a trail like this without gear they have time-tested themselves.
>> I would not trust anybody to recommend gear to me and me hit the trail
>> without me actually trying it, without proving it - even if it was
>> recommended by those guys who have hiked the PCT multiple times. So
>> again, do not mean to not answer your question, I just do not think it
>> is my place to say whether you should use it - especially considering
>> you have not even set it up yet... please... get out there and test
>> your gear before you hit the trail. Once you get that puppy setup you
>> might realize "man, this sucker rocks" and it will be the last tent
>> you will ever buy - there is no doubt that the HMG Echo might be the
>> last tent a person ever needs to buy - it is that awesome.
>>
>> As for whether I would personally hike the PCT with the HMG Echo 1...
>> I would say, "heck ya!" At 23 ounces it ranks as perhaps the best
>> performance-to-weight ratio double wall tent a person could use on the
>> PCT.
>>
>> As for whether I would personally hike the PCT with the Echo II I
>> would probably say "Only if I did not have the Echo I" - the six
>> ounces plus much wider tarp would be hard to justify if I had both. Of
>> course, I do have both the Echo I and Echo II so as you can see by my
>> wanting to sell the Echo I, I have chosen the extra few ounces and
>> wider footprint - but, if it came down to me having to pick one or the
>> other for the PCT, I would go with the Echo I. Having spent enough
>> time in both of them over the last few months, I would sacrifice a few
>> extra inches of luxury for the savings of the few extra ounces and
>> smaller footprint.
>>
>> Anyway, hope that somewhere in all this ramble is something to encourage
>> you.
>>
>> John
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Apr 13, 2011 at 5:42 PM, Brendan Beltz <brendanbeltz at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> > Are you hiking with the Echo II this year? I just bought the Echo II
>> > Camo
>> > System at a discount from HMG, but now that I have it in hand I'm having
>> > second thoughts. It's bulkier than I expected. It's also maybe a little
>> > overkill it seems. I was actually thinking about putting it on BPL just
>> > to
>> > recoup the cost (I haven't even been able to set it up yet.) I'm sure
>> > somebody will want an unused Echo II system for 440. But that leaves me
>> > back
>> > at square one a week before I leave for the trail.
>> >
>> > Are you thru-hiking with the thing? Do you use the insert for rain or
>> > just
>> > bugs or neither(the tarp seems big enough without the backwall)? Do you
>> > bivy
>> > instead?  A lighter insert?
>> >
>> > I guess I feel like I bought more than I need for this hike. Maybe a
>> > twinge
>> > of buyer's remorse.
>> >
>> > On Wed, Apr 13, 2011 at 5:41 PM, John Abela
>> > <pacificcresttrail2011 at gmail.com
>> >> wrote:
>> >
>> >> Hey All,
>> >>
>> >> I just posted some new threads at BPL for some gear I am trying to
>> >> sale...
>> >>
>> >> Hyperlight Mountain Gear (HMG) Echo 1
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/forums/thread_display.html?forum_thread_id=46029
>> >>
>> >> Hyperlight Mountain Gear (HMG) 2010 Windrdider Ultralight pack
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/forums/thread_display.html?forum_thread_id=46031
>> >>
>> >> INOV8 X-talon 212 Men's Shoes (10.5)
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/forums/thread_display.html?forum_thread_id=46032
>> >>
>> >> MiniBullDesign Squirrel Cage 600
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/forums/thread_display.html?forum_thread_id=44439
>> >>
>> >> I also have sitting around:
>> >> U-Dig-It Stainless-Steel Hand Shovel
>> >> Ibex Woolies Bottom (large)
>> >> Ibex Woolies Crew (long sleeve, large)
>> >> ULA Helix (53cm)
>> >>
>> >> Last up is a Nunatak Torre Down Parka - sized XLarge (for layering)
>> >> and in Epic material and without the hood (for custom balaclava).
>> >> http://www.nunatakusa.com/site07/garments/torre.htm
>> >> $400 bucks and I will ship it to you... save yourself $250+
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> John B. Abela
>> >> www.RedwoodOutdoors.Com
>> >>
>> >> In God's wildness lies the hope of the world - the great fresh
>> >> unblighted, unredeemed wilderness. The galling harness of civilization
>> >> drops off, and wounds heal ere we are aware. ~ John Muir
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